Not to start this whole thing off on an immature note, but here is a “survey” i found on the China Daily, perhaps the funniest site around, which touches upon this subject. i saved the original question which i spotted soon after it was posted, but was never able to track it back down to find people’s responses. Here it is:

Do you wanna fuck the White women?
Every Chinese man (Chinese woman is also ok)who visits here is sincerely asked to give your choice:
a. It depends;
b.i do wanna fuck as more as i can;
c.Dont like them,coz they are dirty and strong-desired like some animal;
d.If they wanna pay cash for that;
e.I just want them to get out of China,coz they did not do anything good to China;

October 17, 2005 @ 2:01 am | Comment

I’m not sure how my experience with Japanese men will help, but the traits you mentioned seem similar in many ways, so here goes.

My first reaction is to disagree. You’re talking, in the case of China and Japan, about cultures with highly-developed warrior classes dating back thousands of years, and I believe warriors are considered very masculine (with the exception of the Amazons, but that’s more complicated).

I’ve asked Japanese men why they don’t date American women they’re attracted to, and they usually say something to the effect that it isn’t worth the trouble. Something about how they prefer their women to be…feminine.

In fact, quite the opposite of what you’re saying, I’ve noticed that the Western cultures where the women *don’t* repress their femininity have easier times dating Asian men. I know plenty of Russian female/Japanese male couples, for instance. But American female/Japanese male are rare in the circles I move in.

October 17, 2005 @ 2:11 am | Comment

Dear God Richard, what have you done?! I think you may have opened up a can of worms here. I await the forthcoming and potentially heated debate with bated breath.

This is an Asian, indeed, worldwide phenomenon not just unique to China. THe reasons and the manisfestation of such relationships are not always black and white. E.g. I’m Asian and my significant other is white American but ask any of our friends and they’ll tell you that I’m the live wire and if he were any more laidback he’d fall over! But the thing that really attracts us to each other is the uncanny ability to communicate at all levels on the same wavelength which… isn’t always the case where the two individuals lack a common language.

Anyway, just some of my personal observations. Elsewhere, the ever eloquent SPG has written not one but two treatises on this topic of discussion.

October 17, 2005 @ 4:16 am | Comment

Someone hold me back. Don’t get me started on this one.
Must….NOT…open…vodka….when…I…..comment….on….this………

🙂

October 17, 2005 @ 5:43 am | Comment

It may also have something to do with Chinese men’s ‘unfortunate’ habits. Things like clipping their toanails in the bedroom, spitting, not using a hankerchief, and throwing their litter everywhere.

I think that you should also note the difference between a man having a ‘feminine’ side and being mommy’s boy, who still has no ability to empathise with a woman.

October 17, 2005 @ 5:44 am | Comment

1. Chinese mothers DON’T want foriegn daughter-in-law, as she will not serve them like field slave proper daughter-in-law.

2. Chinese men are raised by doting mothers and distant fathers. Big problem is them figuring out how to be a man, since no one has taught them and Dad doesn’t interact with them. Result is hypermasculinity, not femininity (I think foreign women are misinterpreting deference and insecurity as femininity, just as foreign men often misinterpret deference and polite accommodation with imposition as submissiveness on the part of Asian women. This misinterpretation speaks volumes about what “being feminine” means in western culture). Anyway, this hypermasculinity has double manifestation in hyper-chivalry on one side, but domination and control on other. Neither appeals to western women. Or Chinese women, let’s not forget, who in Taiwan, at least, either don’t marry or marry foreigners. This is a female problem, not a foreign female problem. It is just more acute and obvious with foreign females, who have been trained by their culture to understand that chivalry is simple part of a pattern of domination and control. Not only are local women more restrained in their criticisms of local men, but many of them interpret what we think of as “control” as acts of “caring.” They do not have a feminist consciousness.

Enough, before I blunder into something really contentious.

Michael

October 17, 2005 @ 5:59 am | Comment

From my ROK experience:

Michael #1 is certainly truer than westerners care to understand. Romantic love is not Asian.

But, it’s really quite simpler than all this. South Korean men don’t have the language skills to talk with westerners, including women, Instead of lose face, they prefer to either denigrate themselves to elicit a response most westerners don’t realize they should, returning the humility by making themselves humble. Or, they ridicule westerners.

October 17, 2005 @ 6:57 am | Comment

East Asian Man

Jodi and Richard TPD posted contrasting, yet reinforcing, confessions about that elusive entity, East Asian Man. Wimp or Macho? Can Busan Man kick China Guy’s ass? Has Jodi ruined her man? I never wear a suit without some stress-reducing feature,…

October 17, 2005 @ 7:08 am | Comment

East Asian Man

Jodi and Richard TPD posted contrasting, yet reinforcing, confessions about that elusive entity, East Asian Man. Wimp or Macho? Can Busan Man kick China Guy’s ass? Has Jodi ruined her man? I never wear a suit without some stress-reducing feature, like …

October 17, 2005 @ 7:13 am | Comment

Oh what the hell, I’ll bite:

1. What boo said about “highly developed warrior classes dating back thousands of years”, might still be partly true of Japan (but more like 800 years there) – but whatever tradition of “warrior” culture China ever had, was pretty washed out by the late Qing dynasty….

…and then it was completely destroyed by the Communists.

And mind you, being violent is not the same thing as being a warrior.
China used to have some kind of ethos of chivalry – by which I mean, not just “taking care of women” (which is not very evident in today’s China anyway) – but rather, chivalry as a magnanimous code of warriors.

THAT kind of chivalry is antipathetic toward, and intolerable by, everything the Communists have ever stood for or fought for or murdered people for.

Leninist-Communists believe in power. That’s it. Just power. And Lenin and Trotsky and Mao all laughed at any kind of magnanimity or charity toward losers. Communism (of the Lenin/Stalin variety) is based on bullying and nihilism, and a rejection of any kind of transcendent compassion.

(Weirdly enough I’m exempting Stalin from this, because he was not much of a Communist, not really. He was a Russian – sort of, a Georgian with many Russian traits – and Stalin DID have SOME regard and respect for magnanimity, even though it was a twisted kind. Not so for Lenin and Mao, who had no chivalry at all.)

So, do Chinese men of today (in the PRC) have any residue of any old code of chivalry? No. Some of them might be good men by nature, but all of the old Chinese ways of Chivalry were destroyed by the Communists.

And I think, that is why so many PRC men are bullies and cowards.
In a gang, in a group, they have confidence and they play at being strong. But as individuals, 99 percent of them are devoid of any kind of valour or transcendent charity toward weaker enemies – let alone weaker women, whom many Chinese men beat the shit out of like pathetic cowards.

2. Just one personal anecdote: The only time I’ve ever gotten into a street fight in China, was when I was outnumbered two to one. That’s today’s Chinese way of proving their “manhood”: Very “courageous” as long as they outnumber the opponent. Just like at the Asia Cup in 2004 when all of those oh, oh SO STRONG Chinese men, threw projectiles at the (outnumbered) Japanese team and then attacked Japanese buses.
Oh yes, they’re SO strong, when they have the strength of numbers…

And I walked away from that street fight with nothing more than a bruised arm. But you should have seen the other guys…. 🙂

October 17, 2005 @ 7:48 am | Comment

I dunno Richard, I don’t quite see the femininity of Chinese men. Which characteristics are feminine? Traditional Chinese ideas of manhood seem like your typical traditional ideas of masculinity anywhere: household chores are for women, walk like you’ve got massive guns even if you’re just 115 lbs. and drink yourself into the hospital in competition with your friends. I noticed, Richard, you gave examples of Chinese gay guys wanting to be in the “feminine role” – you said they’re into taking care of their man and cooking dinner. But you can’t possibly mean the same kind of “feminine” for Chinese straight guys. In 3 years, I can count the number of Chinese guys I met who could cook on one hand. They were all cooks, or in high school. As for the manpurse, the walk and the crossed legs, you see more instances of those things in Europe, too, not just China.

I think Michael is on to something; with western women I think it’s often that they don’t fit the Chinese traditional model of a feminine woman. Yes, Chinese men are often intimidated by Western womens masculine strong will, but that doesn’t mean Chinese guys have more feminine traits.

October 17, 2005 @ 8:29 am | Comment

When is the last time a really hot American girl decided to take a one or two-year trip to China? I know a lot of foreign guys always complain about the dearth of attractive white women there. Who is to blame Chinese guys for not hunting down the one or two that might be around?

October 17, 2005 @ 8:46 am | Comment

Ditto, what Matt said.

October 17, 2005 @ 8:51 am | Comment

I also disagree with the feminine theory of chinese men. But I agree that they might be afraid of the strong and straight appearance of the western women here. One have to consider that these women are not the average like in the west, they are successful in business or more curious and brave, or all of that, that’s why they are here.
Maybe that’s what Matt said but I don’t find these women unattractive.
The chinese men except their woman to obey them at least in public and behave a little devote.
That simply doesn’t fit.
But of course there are enough exceptions. but the statistic shows it.
Last but not least there’s the physical matter. Think of an ad at ThatsBJ:” Western woman seeking for chinese partner… bla bla… height above 180cm prefered, as I’m 175.” – 95% of the chinese guys are out of the race. Another point: Age. Many western men are 25-45 here. To find single chinese girls up to 28 is not difficult.
But try to find any unmarried person above 30. And a young business woman is in that position. They are all married!

October 17, 2005 @ 10:23 am | Comment

The chinese men except their woman to obey them at least in public

Considering the regular temper tantrums thrown by women in public, and the subsequent coaxing done by the men, I don’t think this is true.

October 17, 2005 @ 10:30 am | Comment

Hmm, you are right if it’s about scenes on the street but not on a little bit higher level for example at a dinner or so and usually not at the beginning.
What you hear on the streets is the result after the woman got aware what kind of a phlegmathic and selfish asshole she has to spend her life with 😉
But indeed, nowhere in the world I felt so often with a guy around 50 with his shouting wife after him. But on the other hand – in the most cases they are likely to deserve it, from what I learned.

October 17, 2005 @ 10:59 am | Comment

Forgive me, Richard, I didn’t get into the vodka but I’ve had a few beers now:

Wow Thing says:

“M is a candle lighting my way to Newcastle! Newcastle has bigger GDP than my village! M tells me many wisdom on the West, it is very convenient to be Western Wife, bigger GDP in Newcastle! I never be in England but I know it many beauty, many GDP, M show me the way! And my parents come to Newcastle too! You promise me, Mister M the Candle lighting my way?”

M replies:

“I look around
In circles and circles,
Thinking of a Buddhist Deity.
The Buddhist Deity says,
GAN BEI! You got some!
You are a
Western Man
And you are
Bigger in China
Than you ever were
When everyone beat you up
And made fun of you
In your own country.”

(impersonated from somewhere in China),
Shenzhen, home of M, where many women are poor and even the most demented and socially crippled Western White Guys can exploit the local women……

(Bless me, Richard, for I have sinned…..)

October 17, 2005 @ 11:07 am | Comment

I think there are lots of reasons for this, many have already been mentioned.

Another to consider is that many Chinese men (at least mainland guys) will not consider marrying a woman who has a higher education than they do. Some guys are emphatic about this. So a western businesswoman educated at a western university may run into this additional obstacle.

I have to agree with those who have questioned the notion that Chinese men are in some way more effeminate. Gender roles vary so tremendously from culture to culture.

If a westerner sees a Chinese man with long fingernails, wearing lacey, floral-patterned socks, a woman’s clutch-purse under his arm, riding a pink woman’s bicycle or “running like a girl”, the westerner may feel that the Chinese guy is effeminate. However all of these criteria are from western culture. In China, lacey, floral socks are not the least unmanly.

While most western men wouldn’t be caught dead wearing such socks, if we look at what the alpha male of 17th century Europe was wearing, we find … high heels with big fancy bows and lacey stockings. 🙂

The same misplaced perceptions can be seen at work even within China itself. Here in Shanghai many men help their wives with the housework, and some guys are quite proud of their cooking skills. However, in other parts of China these traits would be considered evidence supporting the stereotype of overly-effeminate Shanghainese men.

I only know of a couple of the reverse phenomenon (i.e. things western men do that may seem effeminate to Chinese). I have encountered Chinese men, for instance, who think it is unmanly to eat chocolate or ice cream because these are “girl’s foods”.

October 17, 2005 @ 11:51 am | Comment

I think the explanation is really quite simple why asian women in general prefer white men and why white women in general don’t feel attractive to asian men.

In general, white men are bigger and stronger physically than asian men. They also look much more handsome than asian men (Bigger and rounder eyes. Color hair and color eyes. Whiter skin color, etc). They also produce much better looking offsprings because their mixed kids generally look white (double folded and big round eyes). Their dicks are bigger and longer. Think it doesn’t matter. How come so many white women prefer big strong, and muscular black men who are champions of big dicks. Lastly, because of social and culture reasons, white men tend to be more romantic, tender, and more communicative to women.

So if you combine all these reasons, no wonder white women tend to look down upon asian men and why asian men tend to feel inferior when confronted by white. That being said. There are exceptions. I have two asian American friends who married white women because they found white women especially the blonde variety very exotic and they have incorporated many of the white men’s social characteristics.

So for asian men, the physical disadvantage is impossible to overcome so they compensate by working harder and earn more money and adopting th white men’s social characteristics and manerism if they want to date white women.

Dennis

October 17, 2005 @ 12:05 pm | Comment

I’m a Chinese male.

I’ve learned alot about myself from the comments here!

Apparently I’m

– Effeminate
– Unhygienic
– Short
– A mommy’s boy
– Unromantic
– Unchivalrous
– Intimidated by Western women
– Henpecked
– Inferior to white men physically

Wow, I didn’t know I had so many bad qualities! From now on, I’ll model myself after Western men, who represent true masculinity. =)

Oh, but I’ve got to go now. Got a date with my white British girlfriend. Tata~

October 17, 2005 @ 12:22 pm | Comment

Duck’s theory is flawed anyway. Many people here have given other reasons too. The phenomenon is the consequence of many intertwined factors. There is no easy way to know which variable is most important one because all of them are correlated. Even inside the framework of Duck’s theory, the result can be explained in both ways. Either Chinese men are not attracted to American women, or American women are not attracted to Chinese men. I am not sure which one is duck’s point after I read his post. The fact is that beautiful women are attracted to men, no matter where they come from. Everybody knows that white Russian prostitutes in China are very popular and charge much higher price than local ones, which means Chinese men actually like white women and are not afraid of them (or just because there are only few of them around?) However marriage or a serious relationship deserves many other considerations.
By the way, being muscular is not one of the most important traditional values in Chinese culture because it is always seemingly in the strong conflict with being intellectual, much more valued by traditional Chinese culture. Although the traditional view is gradually changing, the gym is not always available in China. For most of Chinese men, including myself, the habit can not be changed overnight. I actually forced myself to work out every week just for my health, but I still prefer running or swimming instead of weight lifting in gyms. One trainer told me that I have to take way more protein than I am taking now to build up my muscle besides the targeted exercise. I don’t really have much interest in changing my eating habit and have no appetite for extra protein either. Well, if I were not married, I would have given it a try. But then I am afraid that I will be some else…

October 17, 2005 @ 12:42 pm | Comment

Humm … Has anyone noticed how many single (partnerless) white professional women are around here in the states? Sex in the City not withstanding it is diffucult for a professional woman to find a male partner here in the states. Add a few cultural barriers and wallah!

I’m amused by the projection. If a white man can not get laid here in the states it’s his fault. We ask what is he doing wrong? If a white woman in China can’t find a male partner …. wait for it, wait for it … it is the guy’s fault!

How could you not have seen that coming?

🙂

October 17, 2005 @ 3:28 pm | Comment

I have grown to think the average Chinese guy (I cycle to work so my reference is always those guys on bikes too or taxi drivers) are rather repulsive; I couldn’t even shake one’shand knowing what they use their hands for. Even at my school, the kids get a big kick hearing the Chinese admin spitting in the toilets down the hall. Why women of the same social-economic background don’t share such characteristics, I don’t know.
BUT when I went to Ireland, I thougt I’d be exotic with my Chinese girlfriend. In fact, I saw a large number of Irish women with Chinese guys. I had never seen this before. I’ll tell you: it’s a huge reversal, because Chinese guys are the height of sophistication, class and breeding (quiet, well-spoken, attentive to their girlfriends) compared to the Irish (of course, in that certain socio-economic, oh, never mind)

October 17, 2005 @ 5:32 pm | Comment

Duck’s theory is flawed anyway.

I have no theory. The post is a question. The theory was cited to me by others.

October 17, 2005 @ 5:41 pm | Comment

Gay or Asian Redux

Controversy erupted a while back when Details magazine ran a series of photos comparing various groups to gay men. Gay or Asian? Gay or British? Gay or Cowboy? You get the drift. Now the issue has surfaced again in the blogosphere at the Peking Duc…

October 17, 2005 @ 7:29 pm | Comment

Keir wrote:

I have grown to think the average Chinese guy (I cycle to work so my reference is always those guys on bikes too or taxi drivers) are rather repulsive; I couldn’t even shake one’shand knowing what they use their hands for.

Keir I understand exactly what you are talking about, but there really are loads of guys in the cities whose personal habits and hygeine are little different than their western contemporaries. However, a large majority of these guys are under age 30 or so — that sharp division we all see that delineates those born after Opening & Reform were unleashed.

In this age range, heights of 175cm – 180cm are fairly common in Shanghai, and I’ve dated a couple of guys nearly as tall as me (190cm / 6’3″). Generally, guys from this generation are also healthier, have nicer builds, smoke and drink less, and are often more style/appearance-conscious than typical straight western guys.

So many westerners are aware of how attractive Chinese women of the same generation are, but I think Chinese guys get overlooked because by far most westerners here are straight males.

October 17, 2005 @ 9:32 pm | Comment

You know SS, it’s just that once I returned to Ireland I remembered how offensive, antisocial (as in violent and aggressive) men were with their same football uniforms looking like they visit the same barber.
Here in my class though every 15 minutes someone walks past my window spitting and ejecting snot from his nose so there’s no refuge in or out of this school. When I go through the hell of cycling 30 minutes through rush hour home, it’s to my hutong where the noise is unrelenting and the first thing I hear when I wake up is some guy coughing his lungs out. Can’t they at least do it inside their homes? With women at a premium, don’t they have any self-respect?

October 17, 2005 @ 9:42 pm | Comment

So much interesting stuff here. So I’ll just blather aimlessly and hope to hit the key points. Agree fully with Slim that effeminacy in a Westerners’ eyes has little or nothing to do with effeminacy in Chinese eyes. I don’t think Chinese men are effeminate. (They are only in the eyes of their Western beholders.) What I might be inclined to think is that many of them are put off or intimidated by what they perceive to be the “masculine side” of Western women, and thus they steer clear, while Chinese women are attracted by that very same quality in Western men.

About gay Chinese playing the feminine role with Western men…. Again, this is not to say that Chinese gays are effeminate or that they all play the feminine role. What it is saying is that those who are attracted to Western men are, like their female Chinese counterparts, attracted by this perceived masculinity and present themselves to the Western man as the “woman.” This is something I believe nearly all gay Western male expats in China would agree with.

Very unscientific, very amateurish analysis, but it’s an interesting subject and I think that somewhere in all these comments lie some grains of truth and insight.

October 17, 2005 @ 9:42 pm | Comment

Heh!
Richard, am I one of those women you mentioned in the beginning of this post?

What can I say? After I had a wee rant about this topic yesterday and all…

Well…different cultures do display their “masculinity” and “femininity” differently, and I still feel that in general (very much in general) Asian females appear “ultra-feminine” to white Western eyes, and that Asian males appear “less masculine” than we are accustomed to.
Having said that, there definitely are some (not many, but some) Chinese guys that I find myself sexually attracted to. Unfortunately they are all either:
a) my students – and I’m not touching that one with a barge-pole. (These are my ADULT students btw, before anybody gets any strange ideas.
b) married.
c) 5-10 years younger than me.

Part of this problem was touched on by an earlier commentator…my age. As Sex and the City and Bridget Jones have shown us, western professional women are chosing to marry later and later, and that brings a new set of problems with it, both in London/New York, and more so in China. As far as I can tell, in China, apart from in some very developed cities, all women are expected to be married by the age of 30, and most men won’t wait an awful lot longer.

Other issues: the spitting and other disgusting personal habits – as far as I can tell these are in no way limited to the male sex. I’ve had plenty of female students spit on the floor of my classroom as male ones. However, these habits do seem to be dying out. They are certainly found most often in the older generation or the countryside population. And anyway, when all is said and done, nobody’s perfect and I’ve met plenty of western guys with disgusting personal habits.

Kier’s comment about Irish girls and Asian guys is rather illuminating. Once while visiting Tokyo I read an article on this very subject in an expat magazine there. The journalist cited a rule, “If a Japanese women and western man marry, they should live in Japan where cultural forces will keep them together. If a Japanese man and western woman marry, they should live in the west, or cultural forces will pull them apart.” Thus, cultural norms and sex-roles do seem to play an enormous part in this whole thing.
Also bear in mind the fact that China never experienced a grassroots feminist movement in the same way as the west did. Chinese men almost automatically act in a very chivalrous manner: opening doors and carrying bags – every time I go back home I realise how spoilt I’ve been here. During the recent National Day holiday a very good (but very gay) male Chinese friend decided to take me shopping, and spent 1000 rmb on clothes for me. When I protested, he pointed out that if he had a girlfriend he would be expected to spend plenty more than that on her. I’ve never had a western boyfriend who’d spend that much of his salary on clothes for me in one go. (Possibly, of course, I’ve just picked the wrong western boyfriends.) Conversely though, many (not all, just many) Chinese men do still harbour much more “sexist” ideas than western men of the same generation. Kind of along the lines of, “I’m here to look after you because you need looking after,” or “Of course xxxx went wrong, it was managed by a woman.” Interestingly enough, my Chinese girlfriends seem to manage their husbands by massaging that male ego, letting him believe that he’s the best at everything, and then jerking him around like a little puppet on a string.
I don’t think that my height can have much to do with my frustrations: I’m only 5’2″! Although that does make me taller than some Chinese guys (I feel so sorry for Chinese men who are shorter than me), it still leaves a large proportion of the male population who are taller than me.

Finally Dennis, do you have a thing about penis size? During my years in China I’ve never once had sex with a Chinese guy, so I can’t comment on that. I have however, met some enterprising communities of black men – overseas African students at Fudan, or African business men in Guangdong – and they have certainly spotted a niche in the market: lonely white girls, and rushed to fill it. Now whilst having someone pay sexual attention to you is a wonderful thing (if you’re feeling neglected) a big fat dick does not necessarily a fantastic boyfriend make. For a start, if the gentleman in question’s penis is rather large, then the lady has to be really in the mood for love, or she’ll find the experience rather painful. Secondly, penis size does not automatically mean sexual competence. Some of the best lovers I’ve known have had medium-to-small sized penises, but they sure knew where to put them.

And really, when it all comes down to it, aren’t most of us looking for something more than just sexual compatibility in a long-term relationship? Aren’t we looking for someone to talk to, someone to share with, someone to love?

(Richard, I hope some sections of this don’t remind you too much of a certain imaginary female doctor! You take care in bad old Taipei now.)

October 18, 2005 @ 7:39 am | Comment

Hmmm…I think there are a lot of cute Northern Chinese guys, personally…and they seem pretty macho to me. Whether I would be attractive to them or not is a whole other issue…

October 18, 2005 @ 1:32 am | Comment

I personally have a thing for those cell-phone holders on men’s belts.
Seeing those cell phone holders on the subway every day really brings out the wild man-tiger in me, especially if the man wearing it is also picking his nose and flicking it in my direction. Now that’s courtship.

October 18, 2005 @ 2:05 am | Comment

Kevin, you’ve been reading too much of this blog.

October 18, 2005 @ 2:09 am | Comment

Oh, reading that link sent shivers down my spine.
I need to take a nap now!

October 18, 2005 @ 2:18 am | Comment

But on a more serious note, from my own experiences studying abroad in China, i knew quite a lot of chinese guys who wanted to “get with” our fellow americans (except for the african-american female, whom they of course, in the insensitive manner so common in CHina, classified as “scary”), but none who actually did it. I don’t think it is a question of “do they want it or not,” of course if you’ve got a hot girl in a miniskirt, no matter her race, you could show her to heterosexual males of any other race and it would get their heart a-thumpin.

October 18, 2005 @ 2:31 am | Comment

I’m an American and I was terrified to ask white women out for many years of my life. Later, in Singapore, I was terrified to ask Asian women out. Somehow I found I great girl and got married. I don’t think I asked her out per se, as I can’t imagine I ever had the nerve. I think I just kinda lurked around her desk until she took pity on me, and then I managed the rest with my famous, ahem, wit.

Now, as for this:

American men tend to act out their masculinity in a distinct way. They are forthright, uninhibited, hide their fears and nervousness, come across as strong and dominant.

That must be referring to those other American men I’ve heard about. Personally I am a basket of nerves, a total omega, and I use humor to camouflage deep insecurity and a paralyzing addiction to internet p*rnography.

It’s also worth noting out that the nattiest dude in my office is from Yunnan. He’s far better looking and more stylish than us flat-footed, expat oafs. He is a touch effeminate, but only in a low-grade, metrosexual kind of way. I reckon he’d do okay with the white girls if he wasn’t happily paired with a Chinese one already.

October 18, 2005 @ 3:54 am | Comment

I think the American “masculine” guys I was referring to are just as nervous as you are when asking for a date. But as I wrote, the strive to “hide their fears and nervousness, [to] come across as strong and dominant.” See, it’s not that they really are that masculine, but they think they should be – and go to great lengths to appear that way. But their fears and insecurities are as real as yours (and mine).

So are Chinese girls (or any girls, for that matter) more likely to be attracted to the pseudo-swagger and masculine aura (forced though it may be), or to the anxious, fingernail-biting guy who looks down nervously at his shoes as he asks her out? Fair or not, I think she’ll go for the former.

October 18, 2005 @ 4:02 am | Comment

Yeah, well, that’s as may be. But I am much better conversationalist. So there.

Anyway, there is always the great equalizer: liquor.

Thank the gods for the subtle, personality enhancing magic of beer. Of course, too much personality…

October 18, 2005 @ 5:03 am | Comment

Do Chinese girls report that it is the masculinity of western men that attracts them? Haven’t heard that one. My femme students in their views/delusions of western men say that western men are funnier, gentler, nicer — whatever, I’ve heard it all. But I’ve never heard any of my students tell me that they think western men are real men. The problem they convery is that Taiwanese men are all too much men — controlling, indifferent to the needs of their women, abusive, and violent. So they vote with their feet.

There’s another issue. The men that come over to Asia are by any standards the cream of the crop. *On paper* they all have college degrees. They tend to be open minded, tolerant of others, and interested in the world. Taiwanese are tolerant of others, but the other qualities are conspicuously lacking Taiwanese males. The western men that come here are often quite naive about the way the world works too, making them easy marks for a Taiwanese femme interested in a promotion out of the working class. Compare a bunch of college dudes, single, young, healthy, educated, open, tolerant, easy-going…..with ALL Taiwanese men. Of course Group A, those foreigners, are the better lot.

Consider if this situation were in the US. Which men would women naturally prefer? ALL men, or the group of men that consisted of college grads with decent employment prospects, tolerant, some experience of other cultures, ability and willingness to cook, etc. Throw in what every woman knows — college educated people are less likely to divorce, are more likely to accept feminism, and so on. Again, which pool looks better? Group A of college grads, or the pool of ALL males in America. No question about that.

So in the end, the real answer is that the preference of Taiwanese women for western men is really a preference for “better” men who stand out by comparison to all available men. Western men get dates simply because they are “better” men on average than the average Taiwanese. Maybe we’re just overanalyzing here…..

Michael

October 18, 2005 @ 5:07 am | Comment

I’ve got sooooo many thoughts on this topic, and just not enough time to post them all, so I’ll just settle for two.

First: if you’re in a western country, look around at the white guys who are dating asian girls. Are they masculine rambo types? Almost without exception, they are they total opposite. They’re “refined” “educated” “nerds” “smooth” even “weedy” … just have a look. Personally, I think it is because those are the type of white guys that the asian girls like. I sometimes ponder the fact that perhaps the reason I’ve dated numerous asian girls isn’t so much because of my attraction for them … but rather their attraction for me. The white girls want someone more tough and sporty, but the asian girls will give a bookworm like me a go? So … I disagree with the whole supposition that asian girls are attracted to swaggering machismo.

second: to directly contradict my first point. There are real physical differences between asians and westerners. Asians, on average, tend to be smaller, have smoother skin, and less hair. All of these are generally attributes associated with femininity. Whites are on averagw bigger, with rougher skin and more hair. Attributes of the male? No, whether you’re a male or a female, those racial attributes are going to hold true. Does this then mean that asian males and females are more feminine in appearance, whatever their characters? And the reverse for whites? And … how many girls do you know who want to date a man shorter than them? This means, on a purely statistical basis, that there are fewer asian men eligible for the average white woman.

I’m not saying that these two points cover everything. They’re more in the way of “points of ponder”. All I can say is … I think there’s a lot more than needs to be considered, than the points that have been raised so far.

October 18, 2005 @ 5:59 pm | Comment

dishuguanyin, thanks for the great comment. The part about love as opposed to sex strikes especially close to home. As to your question, “Richard, am I one of those women you mentioned in the beginning of this post?” – all I can say is that i never reveal my sources.:-)

FSN9, thanks for your insights and I agree, there’s a lot more to this topic. It isn’t black and white and generalizations are risky. To tound things out, I wish we could get the perspective from a female Western expat in China who’s dating a Chinese guy there. Are there any?

October 18, 2005 @ 8:41 pm | Comment

While perceptions of greater masculinity may not be the sole reason, I think it is one of several factors (as even some Chinese have told me).

I don’t know about the other guys around here, but I notice a difference in the amount and kind of attention I receive if I have body hair showing (short-sleeve shirts, short pants, or open top shirt button).

I am very far from being a paragon of caucasian masculinity (I’m a skinny guy in his mid-forties), yet even I notice an increase in interest (mainly from women, but from some guys as well) if my hairy arms or legs are showing.

October 18, 2005 @ 9:37 pm | Comment

Are Chinese women as intrigued with the hair on Westerners’ arms as gay Chinese guys (for whom that seems to be a point of near-hypnotic fascination)?

October 18, 2005 @ 11:28 pm | Comment

Interesting blog and definately a good insight on this topic via the comments.

I’m the typical chinese girl dating an english bloke….and initially I was put off by all that hair..

BUT being in a relationship is not about hair (or lack of)…so I would think that no, not intruiged by the grizzily bear hair.

Speaking of the preceived masculinity in western men, I would say that is untrue, as I had been with asian men who are more buff and basically manly-looking.

Just from personal experience, I was looking for someone who is open and unafraid to grab the world by it’s balls….not someone whose mother will scream at the sight of my tattoo and thus permanantly ruin whatever love that had developed between us,which I perceive that is what happens with a chinese mother in law.

October 19, 2005 @ 12:16 am | Comment

I remember some questions from some female students, when I was wearning a shortsleeve short (no other hair showing). “Is all your hair blond?”
“Yes, that’s my hair colour”
“I mean, ALL your hair?” (pointing at her armpit.)
“(Sigh) That is my hair colour.”
“Wow! So sexy!”

Another time, they were all staring at my arms, and one asked if she could touch my hair. I said “if I let you touch it once, will you all forget about this issue, and pay attention to my lessons from now on?” They all agreed that they would. So they all gathered around to stroke my arm for a couple of seconds each … I guess they just needed to get it out of their systems.

And no … I didn’t enjoy all this. Frankly, I just found it annoying, as I was trying to teach!

On the same topic: almost without exception, asian girls say they hate beards on a man (and on me). On the other hand, in the past, my “strike rate” was as good or better when I was experimenting with whiskers, and once in a relationship with an asian girl, more than once it’s been suggested that I grow a beard. Maybe that was just to scare away other girls? Who knows?

October 19, 2005 @ 1:26 am | Comment

As a Chinese, I once had an opportunity to date a white girl but failed, because I have great difficulty figuring out her thoughts, or attitude toward me.

I met girl in common room of our residential hall at 11pm one night, and began to talk, till 4am the next morning. I just felt pleasant talking with her, and I guess she too, otherwise she would not be stay so late into night.

Then I thought, I may put further the relationship, like I did with Chinese girls. But I couldn’t.

Unlike other Chinese girls, her face or her behaviors or her word told me nothing about her attitude toward me! Now I think this is severely based on background: you can read a Chinese girl just by her smile, but you may not know a white woman even she’s strongly attracted by you.

I may overcome this difficulty with time. But I don’t have that time and energy. Why don’t I find a Chinese girl with ease? So I don’t ask this New Zealand girl for a date, absolutely.

For the Asian woman\white guy situation, I believe same situation exists. Asian girl also doesnot know white guy well. The difference is that she needn’t to ask first; the while guy will ask. One of my female friend one complaine that she really don’t have the “common language” with her Australian boyfriend.

But does white guy understand Asian girl so he asks? I don’t know.

October 19, 2005 @ 9:18 am | Comment

Sorry for my absent-minded English…

October 19, 2005 @ 9:28 am | Comment

Destinio

I agree absolutely. I’m white, and born in New Zealand, and I don’t blame you for having trouble reading that NZ girl. I’ve never been able to figure them out either. I’ve been on dates, even several dates, with white girls in the distant past … and every time after the date I asked myself “did that go well or not?” without having a clue as to the answer. On the other hand, similar to your own experience, I’ve always found it much easier to tell when an Asian girl is interested, and when it would be welcomed for me to ask her out. I think, somehow, that Asian girls are better at giving a helping hand to a guy to ask her out, unlike any white girl I ever thought about dating. It’s really interesting for me to hear an Asian guy complain about the same thing.

October 20, 2005 @ 9:42 am | Comment

It’s hard to believe we’re discussing this BS about Asian men as being less masculine and sh*t like that these days. This is like replaying the old Hollywood stereotype of Asian men. Their portrayal has been of laundrymen, cooks & waiters. Those were the kind of movies and TV shows I used to see as a kid and western society looked at Asian men thru that kind of filter. What changed things was a scene from a Bruce Lee movie which took place in Shanghai where it was occupied by European colonial powers and he walked to a park to see a sign 7 ft. high that said “No dogs of Chinese allowed”. In a rage he jumped up and kicked the sign shattering it to pieces. This was an Asian movie, Hollywood would never have a scene like this. Historically, the west has made a couple of colossal mistakes thinking that Asian men are meek. In the Korean War, the US Army under Gen. McArthur was driving north towards the Chinese border and one of his General was quoted saying “are we scared of a bunch of Chinese laundrymen?” The rest is history – The mighty Army of Gen McArthur was defeated in the battlefield by a Chinese infantry army and was forced to retreat to the sea and escape to South Korea. In Vietnam, the GI’s thought they were fighting a bunch of little guys wearing black pajamas and flip flops and lost the war. So, what happened to Rambo?

October 20, 2005 @ 10:02 am | Comment

correcting a quote above – The sign in the Bruce Lee movie was “No dogs or Chinese allowed”

October 20, 2005 @ 10:14 am | Comment

dmc510 … you’re an idiot. Firstly, I don’t think you bothered to read any of the comments … you just read the opening point for discussion posted by Richard, and flew off the handle. Secondly, your intepretation of the Korean War is rather interesting, if not entirely accurate (want to compare casualty rates on the American and Chinese sides?). Thirdly, you obviously missed the extensive debates that occurred here concerning that movie scene, and the (non) existence of the sign in question. Fourthly, Chow Yung Fat has made several pretty well known appearances in movies in the west, and no one would ever accuse him of being effeminate … but we’re not talking about movie characterisations, but real life experiences.

October 20, 2005 @ 9:32 pm | Comment

“The men that come over to Asia are by any standards the cream of the crop.”

Many of the expat men I’ve met in China have been borderline losers, failures in their own countries, guys who might have difficulty finding dates back home. I’m pretty sure that the young Chinese women I see with fat old white guys, for example, are with them because they imagine opportunities for advancement (money, greencard, etc) and not because they guys are pillars of masculinity or, god forbid, because their dicks are thick.

Before I moved to Shanghai a businessman who had just returned from four years in Beijing warned me that “China is a difficult place to be a Western woman.” The cockiness of that proclamation (how did he know? ) briefly worried me, but I dismissed it as an anomaly, an ill-thought-out comment by an ignorant prick. In my time here, though, several Western men have repeated some variation of these words to me. Worse, twice Western guys have suggested to me that the reason Chinese girls like them is because *they can bring them more pleasure*.

Is it 1890? Are we here to enlighten the heathens? To show them what love, masculinity, and orgasms look like? To capture their women and take them back to the motherland? I am newly horrified all the time.

My relationship with my boyfriend — who is Chinese — invites all sorts of comments. I am a fetishist, he is so feminine, he cannot truly value women. But, without going into the reasons that I enjoy him because of who he is (not because of where he comes from), let me reveal that our initial pairing was prompted, at least in part, by process of elimination: by the fact that I do not want to date a man who waltzes around Asia like a misbehaving conqueror.

October 20, 2005 @ 9:51 pm | Comment

I find it amusing that comments are all over the place — from Chinese men are effeminate to Chinese men are ultra-masculine.

I think I know why Chinese woman + foreign man is common while Chinese man + foreign woman is not.

Because a woman, in general, is expected to fit into the culture of the man she marries. A Chinese woman is happy to fit into Western culture because that is where the MONEY is.

A Western woman is perhaps less enthused about fitting into Chinese culture because (1) Chinese generally have less money and (2) Westerners still look down on a lot of things in Chinese culture, as can be seen from this column, to some extent.

As for Chinese men, my impression is that they are generally very good to their girlfriends. Girlfriends are very important and they will shower lots of goodies on them or indulge in their whims. On the other hand, they tend to be very controlling. The classic expression of this, of course, is buying the girlfriend a mobile phone, a magnanimous gesture that makes it easier to keep tabs on the girl.

Just my 2 cents worth, 2-3 days late.

October 20, 2005 @ 11:20 pm | Comment

Who’s flying off the handle here – Stinking turd No.9 – want to call names, right? What is it to you if I want to respond to the starting post – this is a free for all or not? – OK hey look – I wanted to mention it seems to have been a throwback to old perceptions on minorities – part of that old perception was that Hollywood has had a gigantic impact on popular culture thru generations and it has definitely influenced how the Asian male has been characterized in the West. “real life” experiences of Asian males has been influenced in some manner by this – similar to other minorities in the US. Chow Yung Fat is only lately recognized in the west because of the rise of Asian Cinema – Hollywood would have never given him a chance to rise from the bottom. On your third point about the non-existent sign. This is from a Bruce Lee movie I saw a long time ago – I saw the Chinese version but don’t remember the movie’s title. On what you said about the Korean War, “your intepretation of the Korean War is rather interesting, if not entirely accurate” – go ahead and bone up on the history. There is no interpretation here – it’s all there in writing. Go and read about MacArthur’s military defeat in North Korea against the Chinese. The casualty rates are disputed by the Chinese but the fact is that MacArthur’s army was routed in the frozen battlefield and had to retreat to South Korea.

October 20, 2005 @ 11:25 pm | Comment

God Bless Jason Lee and his hillarious comment.

PS How do you all read all these comments? My god, it’s great stuff but I’ve got 30 other stories to read from my feeder!

October 21, 2005 @ 12:09 am | Comment

DMC, Chow Yung Fat has been popular in the US since 1995. I get the feeling you play fast and loose.

October 21, 2005 @ 12:24 am | Comment

What? 1995 was just yesterday!

October 21, 2005 @ 12:25 am | Comment

Speaking of Chow-Yun Fat…a couple of years ago I managed to catch reruns of Shanghai Tan (iconic 70s gangster series)in which he played the main man …my, was he ever a fox in his prime! *drool runneth over*

…ahem. Girl moment.

Anyway, I’d hate to agree with DMC on anything (Korean War as an example of Chinese machismo? oy), but I think he’s right in saying that Chow-Yun Fat had never been truly “popular” in mainstream American culture until recently – since the release of “Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon”, I’d say. So no, not 1995, more like…2002. Before that it was only Chinese martial arts movies aficionados who’d know his name.

I’ve dated both Caucasians and mainland Chinese. I’d say my Chinese boyfriends were generally more considerate (had no complaints about taking me shopping, voluntarily cooked supper, etc), less confrontational (good-naturedly let me have the last word in a fight, and never resorted to physical violence), not afraid to snuggle, and less likely to act like slavering horndogs. However, it was nearly impossible to talk to them about politics (first of all, because girls are not supposed to care, and second of all, not being a mainlander but an overseas Chinese, I was an American lackey and therefore always wrong on anything related to China.) Also, two guys who I’d assumed to be quite liberal turned out to have HUGE hang-ups about female sexuality and chastity ( Hmm. Never had that problem back in North America. Over here, isn’t it “the sluttier, the better”?) As well, all of them smoked. Not as in, lighting up an occasional joint or whatever, but semi-perpetual cigarette breath. I don’t know if this was just unfortunate selection of guys on my part or what, but it seems quite common.

I don’t think Chinese men are any more effeminate than Caucasian men. And they’re NOT afraid to make the first move. (but that only applies to Chinese females…not sure if they truly are intimidated by Western women.)

But one thing is certain: no, it’s not about dick size. If that were the case, we’d all be lesbians making do with dildos. Dick size is just a myth sad white men tell themselves.

October 21, 2005 @ 2:10 am | Comment

It’s going off on a tangent, arguing when Chow became popular. Among the mainstream American audience, Crouching Tiger was the watershed moment. But for people like me who were big fans of Asian movies before, he was a household name by 1998, as was Tony leung.

But one thing is certain: no, it’s not about dick size. If that were the case, we’d all be lesbians making do with dildos. Dick size is just a myth sad white men tell themselves.

Did you ever see Sarong Party Girl’s blog legend: “Of course size matters. Have you ever seen a two-inch dildo.” She does seem to have a point….

October 21, 2005 @ 3:35 am | Comment

dmc510, I second your views. This blog entry reeks of faulty logic.

To be fair, some of the commenters have provided fairer insights into this.

October 21, 2005 @ 7:47 am | Comment

“Many of the expat men I’ve met in China have been borderline losers, failures in their own countries, guys who might have difficulty finding dates back home. I’m pretty sure that the young Chinese women I see with fat old white guys, for example, are with them because they imagine opportunities for advancement (money, greencard, etc) and not because they guys are pillars of masculinity or, god forbid, because their dicks are thick. ”

This is very true. I know a lot of cases where the girls get married for a green card or money. BTW, the majority of white male/ asian female couples does not look that great. Both looks very unattractive, probably both are the losers on the dating scheme in their own ethnic. I have never seen a ‘hot” asian girl with white guys, almost all the asian girls are below average. I’m a bit sexist here, but this is what I saw. Sorry if I offend someone in here. this is just my thought (from my observing) ^-^

October 21, 2005 @ 2:09 pm | Comment

“Did you ever see Sarong Party Girl’s blog legend: “Of course size matters. Have you ever seen a two-inch dildo. She does seem to have a point….”

Her blog motto has long since been changed. And SPG, while a pretty cool gal, goes through guys like a fat woman through Twinkies after Ramadan, so she’s hardly representative of the rest of us. My point was if, dick size is overrated *in a relationship*. Trust me, most girls, Asian or Caucasian, don’t judge a guy boyfriend material just because he’s hung.

But, whatever. If you Caucasian guys are so willing to be participants in objectification..:P

As for Chow-Yun, hey, don’t blame me for going tangential. You and DMC were the ones who started it.

October 21, 2005 @ 3:25 pm | Comment

Richard,

You are a gay white man, right? do you find asian gay men attractive or all too femiline to your taste? Will you marry a gay asian man?

October 21, 2005 @ 9:38 pm | Comment

I don’t find Chinese guys effeminate. I’d marry one, if I were single.

October 21, 2005 @ 9:43 pm | Comment

This page is disgusting, but worth a look anyway:

http://www.mangosauce.com/archives/000035.html

October 23, 2005 @ 11:04 pm | Comment

Let’s face it … as I said before … there are certain attributes of Asian appearance that are generally associated with the female. It doesn’t mean they’re all feminine … but there is something to the initial point that Richard made. Chow Yung Fat, by the way, is distinctly unfeminine even in the flesh. I once ran into him in a market in Hong Kong, and he even said “hello” to my (then) girlfriend, who gasped when she saw him. Big bloke. Wouldn’t want to run into him in an alley. Oh wait … I did.

In terms of character, I don’t think Asian men are feminine at all. Perhaps that is the source of the wild variation in views. Some people are talking about physcial appearance (or mistaking physical appearance for character), and others are talking about behaviour?

As for the Korean War comments by a certain contributor above … at first I got annoyed by such drivel … but in retrospect, it’s kind of funny. Dream on, deam on …

October 24, 2005 @ 2:20 am | Comment

Maybe white women are just horrible, and that white men once exposed to asian women just won’t go back.

occam’s razor – this argument would explain both Chinese and white males being interested only in asian women.

October 25, 2005 @ 10:22 pm | Comment

In one sentence, most Chinese Men including me prefer Femine-Western-Women and not Macho-Western-Women for a good time.
Who needs another man…not me.
So what is all your bullshit about?

Real Chinese Man sleeping with a sexy Western woman.

October 25, 2005 @ 11:41 pm | Comment

The “bullshit” was about an issue posed to me by three female Westerners in China. Thanks for your contribution to the discussion.

October 26, 2005 @ 12:06 am | Comment

I’m with Aaron (at least partly). It’s certainly been my observation (and personal experience) that once a white man starts dating Asian girls, he seldom if ever dates a white girl again. Even if they don’t marry their first Asian girlfriend, sooner or later they get hitched with a girl from the east … They also seem to make pretty happy marriages, in most cases.

October 26, 2005 @ 2:00 am | Comment

I’m a wf and am dating a Chinese guy now. I just find them more attractive, I can’t say why. I’d choose an Asian man over a Westerner any time.
I wouldn’t say that Chinese men are effeminate, but even if they were, I don’t mind.
And about the previous ‘momma’s boy’ comment, here’s what I have to say: I’ve seen my share of momma’s boys in Japan, I thought this would be so much of turnoff. But I found that the younger generation is different. As for all Asians being momma’s boys, I don’t think so!
On to a slightly different topic…
I think it’s time for a strong Asian American male to become a Hollywood star. And please,not only the martial artists! I am hoping for a hot, well-built Asian American to star in a Hollywood hit! This might help get rid of this perceived ‘effeminate’ quality Chinese have. Well…in might happen…

October 30, 2005 @ 12:33 pm | Comment

Asian men are in general not effeminate. Those who are , are octracised from the main testosterone loaded groups they go out with .

You have to understand the culture – I am a singaporean chinese girl. I grew up in that culture. I don’t mind mixing with foreigners but my parents expect me to marry within the race if possible. They view westerners as too liberal (as in sex) .

Why asian men don’t like western women ? Because they are brought up to understand the woman must be most preferably be a virgin when they marry her. Damaged goods are what we call women who have sex before marriage. It is frown upon. Of course there are some asian men who don’t mind it in the concept of true love. Many , however , don’t like the idea of marrying a damaged product when they can get a first hand product. The portrayal of western women in media and movies are all about them having premarital sex in the name of love – to some of us asian – that sounds really really immoral , at worst slutty. May sound arcane to westerners the way some of us asian think but this is how I am brought up .

October 31, 2005 @ 9:45 am | Comment

obvious rich couldn’t take my last comment.

Let me rephrase – spgs should covert black meat because white meat can also fall a little short

November 2, 2005 @ 6:05 pm | Comment

That’s better. I won’t allow unnecessarily graphic pornographic language here.

November 2, 2005 @ 6:16 pm | Comment

At the end of the day, I think it’s all a matter of personal views on freedom and comfort. We will each choose something/one that/who will allow us to grow and flourish in the best possible way.

Thus, if a Chinese girl perceives her Chinese male counterpart as being suffocative, she may choose someone who has a “wider” sense of the “role” of men and women in a relationship. This may allow her to excel at some things that he may not agree with.

I do agree that denial and lack of self-awareness generate a whole lotta problems on a personal and national level.

This translates to someone putting up a brave front because they are unwilling to admit that they ARE fallable and therefore they have doomed themselves to being unchanging and “stuck in a rut”.

On the whole, it doesn’t really matter regarding ethnicity. It is a matter of upbringing, and at the end of the day, a matter of people realising with complete honesty and acceptance who they really are, and what they really want – and then go get it. A different spin to it would be how in every place on earth, you will find someone who has the most ghastly manners in the world, be it hygiene or behaviour. It’s all in your self-awareness and thoughtfulness – the ability to understand that what you are doing can cause harm or hurt (or disgust) to those around you.

Nuff said.

November 6, 2005 @ 2:53 am | Comment

I’ve gotten pictures of my penpals, and although they are really beautiful, I’m a little taken aback with them – they do seem really feminate

1) they have really long nails (better cared for then most of my girlfriends)

2) their hair is better kept & styled as well

3)umm….is that lipstick or just really flushed lips? (I’m open on this one, my childhood friend and his brother both got bright red lips whenever they were heated about something)

4) did I mention 2 of them looked better then any othe rguy I’ve seen for about 7 yrs?

December 14, 2005 @ 6:51 am | Comment

libyan men no.1 in the world

December 20, 2005 @ 3:26 am | Comment

I am a white so-called “Western” woman in China and have dated Chinese men. I also know several other “Western” women who have done so (though from different countries in the “West”).

The biggest obstacle I’ve experienced (and they’ve also mentioned) is the class difference.

Working in business, though not on an expat package, my salary is still anywhere from 1 to 3 times what most of the Chinese men my age group are making, and that’s for those with university degrees, and maybe even master’s degrees too.

Getting rich may be glorious, but it seems to me that masculinity here also carries an economic component, i.e. the breadwinner idea. In fact, before we got involved, one of my boyfriends actually complained that many of the Shanghainese girls were only interested in guys with “prospects” and to date a girl here, guys needed one or more of the following: a good job, good degrees, a green card to somewhere, the money to buy an apartment (for after the wedding of course), a car…etc.

It’s been a while since I’ve been back to the “West” (which I find really boring, and which is why I worked so hard to come to China), but where I grew up…being the breadwinner (or at least the main provider) was certainly part of what being a ‘real man’ meant. It took a very secure, mature male to put up with the snide comments made by other people (mostly guys) if his wife had a higher degree than he did or, God forbid, actually made more money than he did. So I don’t think this issue is specific to China.

Class differences (specifically regarding how to spend/save/invest money and who pays issues) have always been more of a problem in my experience than race, religion, ethnicity, language, or even dick size (& why that’s even been in this thread at all is dumb since good sex is about more than the guy’s penis anyway).

Just food for thought.

January 1, 2006 @ 11:56 am | Comment

For the record i think most chinese girls actually find western guys unattractive.

i.e. hairy, smelly, never pay for dinner, rude and obnoxious.

seems to be only the ugly girls who go for whities. probably because they know no else will have them.

January 10, 2006 @ 10:31 am | Comment

Wow going way off topic here after reading dmc’s comments.

DMC is absolutely right that the Chinese defeated the US and forced them back to South Korea. The reason, however, is that the US was as taken by surprise in North Korea as they had been by the Japanese at Pearl Harbor.
They were pursuing the North Korean remnants and not in any form of fighting order to face a large coordinated force.
The Chinese attack took them completely by surprise and many troops had been going long time without rest and supplies trying to push the Korean communists until they surrendered.

Unfortunately for them, there was a well armed, large army ready to attack them that they didn’t know about.

They deserve all the kudos a surprise attack deserves, just like the Imperial Japanese Navy

January 10, 2006 @ 4:12 pm | Comment

Hey alicia, I agree. Mostly over here it’s dorks who date the funny looking asians too.

I mean
flat chested
cheap
poor hygiene (girls from China, the ones raised here learn as kids)
figures like 30-22-30
fart like cows (again maybe only the ones from China)
weird faces
don’t know how to shave bikini areas
rude, no manners

all in all pretty gross

January 10, 2006 @ 4:22 pm | Comment

re: shanghainese women. I remember Jackie Chan saying something about Westerners should come in and marry Shanghainese women. Those of us in “the know” know all about said women. 😉 I wouldn’t touch them with a 10 foot pole.

January 18, 2006 @ 6:31 pm | Comment

For the record i think most chinese girls actually find western guys unattractive. i.e. hairy, smelly, never pay for dinner, rude and obnoxious.
seems to be only the ugly girls who go for whities. probably because they know no else will have them.

Alicia, obviously you’re Chinese. Here, let me help translate what you really meant to say:

Chinese guys, with their rotting black teeth and reeking of underarm sweat, are the only hope I’ll ever have due to my own deficiencies in these areas. White guys tend to dress beautifully, at least way better than their Chinese counterparts, they all use deodorant and have sparkling white teeth, and they never reek of that vile “Chinese stench” – the combination of tobacco, sweat and garlic. Needless to say, they have tons of money compared to the local guys, and literally every girl dreams of having a date with one. In fact, once we do get that Magic Date, we instantly try to sink our teeth into Our Big White Man and get him to take us with them out of this hellhole of a country. Oh, and with Chinese guys, we try to locate their penises, but even a tweezer won’t help, they are so tiny. White men have long, succulent sex organs, almost always erect and waiting for action. But these white men turn away from me as though I have the plague. So I’m jealous as hell, so I write that white men are disgusting. As we say in Chinese, “What a dog can’t eat or fuck it pisses on.”

There, does that help?

January 18, 2006 @ 7:08 pm | Comment

The comment above is particularly illuminating of your typical white racism. “Whiteness” = physical beauty. Need I say anything more? Eh? Giving us a load of crap like “white men is physically more desirable.” I don’t have slitty eyes and I’m damn sure I could punch this fella’ in his face and knock him to the floor.

February 14, 2006 @ 12:04 am | Comment

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So many interesting comments and so many not so interesting. Answer me this – I am 50 years old, a nice looking guy with a background both varied and interesting. I am intelligent, well read and enjoy intellectual pursuits. Sex is no longer the priority with me. My girlfriend is a beautiful, intelligent 20-year-old Chinese.
Sure, we make love (I’m not crazy) but not to the extent of my youth. We laugh together, have fun and find a lot of pleasure in each other¡¯s company. The thing is, she won’t take my money. I want her to. I want her to have anything she wishes but she won’t. I pay for meals and the odd taxi but as for buying her things, forget it – she just gets angry with me and all ready I have had to return two expensive gifts that I offered her but never spoke to her about.
Do I love her? Yes, I do. Does she love me? I believe she does. But our love for each other is based on different things.
Why should society frown on us? We are happy, we hurt no one. We respect each other and add a little piece of joy to this often-sad planet. Our race doesn’t matter to us neither does the difference in our economic circumstances or age.
One day she will leave me, I guess. When that day comes my heart will break and I don’t expect to find a girl so wonderful as her again.
Before I met her (and please, she chased me if you must know although it was originally a close friendship and developed from that) I dated Chinese women between the age of 32-42, it was never my intention to date anyone so much younger – like so many of you my thinking (much as I like to imagine it broad and open) was fixed by societies law – this relationship of ours developed ‘out of the blue’.
In Asia today too many whites exploit the girls (one must add that exploitation also occurs from the girls side) to stereotype culture is merely a guideline and should never be set in concrete. Not all these girls are so cold-hearted as to look for wealth among the whites and some westerners marry Asian girls for the same reason they would marry a white girl (I must say that judging by the state of many western guys I see here in China I would be surprised if any white girl wanted them) Today I am happier than I have been for a long time. She has a life I don’t try to control, as do I; but we are loyal and faithful to each other and have been so from the beginning.

February 17, 2006 @ 9:59 pm | Comment

I am in love with Asian women the feeling’s i have can be expressed through a song, if your interested try to get a hold of, Can’t take my eye’s off you, by Muse. My attraction to the Asian female has to do with many factor’s im sure. I just am attracted to people who are attracted to me for one. I love new thing’s. I like dark hair. Hairless women also a reasonable reason. The fact that they’re more polite than White girl’s i’ve dated who are just too cruel in some respect’s. I’m not a sex driven dog either like Asian men somtime’s accuse us of being, so I’ve read in a few other blog’s and forum’s. But Asian men shouldn’t worry, there aren’t nearly as many White people as Asian’s. Seriosuly I want Halfer babie’s mixing Asian and white almost alway’s = good looking.

April 19, 2006 @ 9:15 am | Comment

Hi Richard,

thanks for writing this article (ages ago…) which, although dealing with a matter which seems to get more complex the further you dig into it, at least shows somebody has seen the strange cultural issues at hand.

I’ve got to say that I AGREE WITH THE GENERAL POINT PUT FORWARD IN THIS ARTICLE. Why? Well…

To begin with, it seems to be happily accepted that white women, taken as an average could be ‘less feminine/more masculine’ than chinese women. At the same time, many respondants seem to suddenly have great issue with the idea that white men could also be generally ‘less feminine/more masculine’ than chinese men. So its fine to say that chinese women are more attractive, but suddenly becomes bigoted to say white men are more attractive?

Please, anybody who has been thinking in the way I’ve mentioned above and realise that you have to take both opinions as acceptable to hold, or neither of them.

To me, however, the white women higher-masculinity and chinese man lower-masculinity viewpoint does seem to hold some weight. I won’t go into cultural details, because views on desirable male and female behaviours do differ between cultures. Instead I’d like to bring physicality out as an issue.

White people tend to have a larger build than chinese people, they tend to be taller and they tend to be physically stronger. Whatever genetic differences are there tend to be amplified by diet, but still, American-chinese people still tend to be smaller build etc. than white people (and again, taking this as an average.) If you dispute this physique-masculinity, perhaps think about world famous sportsmen, particularly those in power and strength-based sports. Most of them are white or black. Not many chinese men (there are some, true, but the small number argues for the point). These sports are extremely lucrative, so saying that some people would not want to participate if they had the talent would be false. Even martial arts, many of which originated in china, are dominated in the heaviest categories by westerners (and these categories hold the largest purses).

Now, you may still dispute the validity of physique as a ‘-inity’ measuring tool. HOWEVER, then think about this… if you saw two chinese walking down the street, wearing very similar clothes, faces impassive and both with normal gait BUT one was 6’3” and powerfully built while the other was 5’6” and skinny as a rake, which of these two, for a cool million, would you describe as being the more masculine? Put simply, bigger and stronger is one factor which equals more masculine. There are other factors, but you’ve really got to be a contestable ass to say you disagree to this one.

That is not to say that all white men are more masculine than all chinese men, not at all, but I believe it does indicate a trend.

To this length, should any chinese man cheerfully describe white women as dirty, easy etc. I will happily point out to him that he is a skinny armed lady-boy and not feel the slightest guilt.

April 23, 2006 @ 4:47 pm | Comment

Hi Richard,

thanks for writing this article (ages ago…) which, although dealing with a matter which seems to get more complex the further you dig into it, at least shows somebody has seen the strange cultural issues at hand.

I’ve got to say that I AGREE WITH THE GENERAL POINT PUT FORWARD IN THIS ARTICLE. Why? Well…

To begin with, it seems to be happily accepted that white women, taken as an average could be ‘less feminine/more masculine’ than chinese women. At the same time, many respondants seem to suddenly have great issue with the idea that white men could also be generally ‘less feminine/more masculine’ than chinese men. So its fine to say that chinese women are more attractive, but suddenly becomes bigoted to say white men are more attractive?

Please, anybody who has been thinking in the way I’ve mentioned above and realise that you have to take both opinions as acceptable to hold, or neither of them.

To me, however, the white women higher-masculinity and chinese man lower-masculinity viewpoint does seem to hold some weight. I won’t go into cultural details, because views on desirable male and female behaviours do differ between cultures. Instead I’d like to bring physicality out as an issue.

White people tend to have a larger build than chinese people, they tend to be taller and they tend to be physically stronger. Whatever genetic differences are there tend to be amplified by diet, but still, American-chinese people still tend to be smaller build etc. than white people (and again, taking this as an average.) If you dispute this physique-masculinity, perhaps think about world famous sportsmen, particularly those in power and strength-based sports. Most of them are white or black. Not many chinese men (there are some, true, but the small number argues for the point). These sports are extremely lucrative, so saying that some people would not want to participate if they had the talent would be false. Even martial arts, many of which originated in china, are dominated in the heaviest categories by westerners (and these categories hold the largest purses).

Now, you may still dispute the validity of physique as a ‘-inity’ measuring tool. HOWEVER, then think about this… if you saw two chinese walking down the street, wearing very similar clothes, faces impassive and both with normal gait BUT one was 6’3” and powerfully built while the other was 5’6” and skinny as a rake, which of these two, for a cool million, would you describe as being the more masculine? Put simply, bigger and stronger is one factor which equals more masculine. There are other factors, but you’ve really got to be a contestable ass to say you disagree to this one.

That is not to say that all white men are more masculine than all chinese men, not at all, but I believe it does indicate a trend.

To this length, should any chinese man cheerfully describe white women as dirty, easy etc. I will happily point out to him that he is a skinny armed lady-boy and not feel the slightest guilt.

April 23, 2006 @ 4:48 pm | Comment

I haven’t been back to this antique thread in a long time. Thanks for tte insightful coment Tim. Mr. Snark, that was a bit over the top, but not entirely off the mark.

Bill: The comment above is particularly illuminating of your typical white racism. “Whiteness” = physical beauty.

Whites are racists for thinking white is beautiful? Excuse me, but it’s Asian women who I always see buying every kind of cream imaginable as long as it promises skin whitening. Most white people I know go to the beach or tanning salons to make their skin darker, tanner, anything but pale white, which is to many Americans (foolishly, I believe) perceived as sickly and unattractive.

April 23, 2006 @ 8:37 pm | Comment

Chinese are filthy little genetically depraved creatures with little Penises…Sad, but true.

April 29, 2006 @ 3:56 am | Comment

Conan, that’s pretty nasty, don’t you think? The Chinese are among the very most productive and ingenious societies known to man, and you should appreciate that. About penis size, that’s another story….

April 29, 2006 @ 4:12 am | Comment

Well you know they say “white skin makes up for three times ugly…”

I think this goes beyond issues of feminimity/masculinity. Giving it this much weight in this topic is simply shredding hairs.

Strange though I’ve always found it, I’m told on a regular basis that I embody the “Chinese ideal of feminine beauty.” I always wonder what that even means… I’m Hispanic… I suppose it’s because I have dark features, long hair, thin, without actually being Chinese… well, whatever.

But I know why I’ll never date a Chinese boy. Because I’m living in hickville, Hunan, and all the young men around here will state straight up they want a woman less educated and less intelligent than they are. And it’s no way to get a date by refusing to talk to me directly. Instead they ask anyone else at the table “is Jessica enjoying the dinner? Does Jessica like the town?” No matter that Jessica is sitting right there.

Well, this is all nonsense anyway. You think you can make people’s sexual and romantic choices make sense? Ha!

Fun topic anyway, some nice thoughts on ethnicity/gender issues.

May 7, 2006 @ 5:14 am | Comment

Right, right, and I must add…

I don’t think the expats here are particularly macho. Actually, it seems to be just the opposite. One of the guys I work with has even said he likes living here, because he’s not very agressive. But his masculinity isn’t challenged here because of it…

And however this might tie in…without exception, every white guy I’ve known who has professed an interest in Chinese (Asian) women over any other “type” (snort) of woman has also later confessed to some amount of homosexual/bisexual interest. Or I’ll admit, sometimes they don’t tell me, “Jessica, I want to get some hot lovin’ on with that hot boy over there.” They just…go do it.

How fun!

May 7, 2006 @ 10:10 pm | Comment

From my perspective as a white South African woman who largely prefers to date Asian men, I find many of these comments interesting.

The problem with stereotyping is precisely this: they are true in as much as they are indications of behaiviour trends. They are certainly not a prediction of individuals behaiviour. They do harm when they are applied to interpersonally. Everyone has a story. Being South African I am very sensitive to this. Spitting in the street may make some of you wretch/wince, it�s not terribly endearing to me either ! But stand back and realise that your reaction is very reflective of, and determined by, your own culture. Sitting in the seat of judgement too prematurely throws relationships into very dangerous territory�

The assumption that western women are �loose� is fascinating one- although I try distance myself emotionally from this one (for the sake of a deeper understanding and a larger picture). It doesn�t help being reactive. Some Chinese look at me politely (when I was with my chinese boyfriend) and asked �Are you Russian?�

Asian men and women are unfamiliar with our western habit of cross-gender friendships. One of my female chinese friends remains unconvinced. She looked at me with more than scepticism and said she thinks it�s impossible. I�ve got quite a few close male foreign friends (who have chinese girlfriends). These friendships were to the dismay of my chinese boyfriend. I don�t think my assurances were ever enough. These men�s chinese girlfiends were highly suspicious of me- I�ve experienced more than three of these errupting into unpleasant scenes/ jealousy. I�m sure that there are western men out there who can subsantiate my claim? I have 4 brothers and have grown to cherish my male friendships. But I�ve unfortunately had to distance some of these for general peace.

The common perception is that Chinese women are more virtuous than us western equivalents. This perplexes me. The number of love motels in Taiwan, the speed at which a piece of paper with a phone number progesses to the bedroom�it is unlike everything I�ve been told about chinese women. It is also a very prevalent story. From what I hear from the more seasoned foreigners, chinese ladies are well versed in the language of the bedroom. Why is this unacknowledged? And these are not simply those proverbial �bad girls� noted by chinese�

I asked my chinese boyfriend why some chinese girls openly choose men with the priority of monetary gain/ prestige. In the West such ulterior motives are at best frowned upon publicly- but they are of course undeniably influencial. He told me that they are simply looking after their own interests. I was suprised that he did not feel animosity in this regard. Sociologically they say that the more suppressed a women is in a culture the more she resorts to other means, eg manipulations/ becoming forced to rely the prestige of her man to further herself. She�s justifiably looking out for her future. Marriage in Asia is often not between 2 people, it is between 2 families�

When my father did business in China his partners took him to a topless bar and generously suggested that he take what he wish� Women and business are interconnected in China. The sex industry is thriving in Asia. When he said no thanks they suggested that he leave his wife at home next time�.

Nevertheless a close friend of mine is happily married to a chinese man and with a daughter and a son. If anything were an issue it would be being so far from home� When you marry you marry into a culture to� This is especially true for a woman. This is a well documented fact, not feminist rhetoric.

I am not on a moral crusade. I am just pointing out similarities and attempting to iron out some of these confusions�.

Apparantly in the gay scene in Beijing some chinese men unfortunately fear foreign men have Aids and are thus hesitant. It is unacknowledged reality in China and thought of as a western speciality. There�s also an opinion amongst some chinese women is that �western men make good lovers, but chinese men make good husbands��

I find that Asian men are nicely toned. They may be leaner but their muscles seem more compact. Very sexy. My previous boyfriend was Thai and I had a similar perception. In my experience Thai men are more �latin� (physical, expressive) while chinese men are more composed/reserved. I also find them very masculine, if not a little too authoritarian for my taste�in a sense perhaps lacking in those affectionate charms- assocaited the western �ladies- with the western �ladies man� approach. I must say that further into our relationship I did miss these western qualities� then again there�s the personality factor� My struck me deeply was a deep sense of loyalty- he looked after all my needs and made sure my daily living needs were cated for..

I went to gym with a chinese friend of mine the other day who commented on some of the western weight lifters, stressing that all that muscle really didn�t appeal to her…

Someone said this to me the other day : Asia is a man�s world� what do you all think ?

May 23, 2006 @ 11:51 am | Comment

I had to steal this above quote:

“If a Japanese women and western man marry, they should live in Japan where cultural forces will keep them together. If a Japanese man and western woman marry, they should live in the west, or cultural forces will pull them apart.”

Women seem to have the larger role in the ‘adaption-to-foreign-culture department’ . Well that seems to be the reality anyway…

Perhaps Asia is a man’s world… then so is the West…

I am female and smoke and have found that I am faced with negative reactions… Not ‘cos I smoke (men evidently do it), but because I’m a women. Same with drinking (which I don’t do excessively).

By the way how hair-raisingly disturbing:

http://www.mangosauce.com/archives/000035.html

I don’t feel very good ’bout my femininity now…

(:

May 24, 2006 @ 3:15 am | Comment

I had to steal this above quote:

“If a Japanese women and western man marry, they should live in Japan where cultural forces will keep them together. If a Japanese man and western woman marry, they should live in the west, or cultural forces will pull them apart.”

Women seem to have the larger role in the ‘adaption-to-foreign-culture department’ . Well that seems to be the reality anyway…

Perhaps Asia is a man’s world… then so is the West…

I am female and smoke and have found that I am faced with negative reactions… Not ‘cos I smoke (men evidently do it), but because I’m a women. Same with drinking (which I don’t do excessively).

By the way how hair-raisingly disturbing:

http://www.mangosauce.com/archives/000035.html

I don’t feel very good ’bout my femininity now…

(:

May 24, 2006 @ 3:20 am | Comment

Okay, i’m chinese and born british — hell, i can’t believe that you’ve been going around in circles and not really hit on the ACTUAL truths.

Here’s why :

1: Chinese men generally ARNT attractive – generally speakin, neither are the woman, but since woman only have to be thin to be attractive – that’s much easier for them. White people in general have prettier faces …

2: White women are generally fat – even what is considered ‘puppy fat’ IS fat to us. And it’s a big turn off – most chinese men have fat phobia.

3: A matter of confidence, chinese are raised to be humble and quiet (in general) which are good traits for woman — but shit if you’re a guy and want to pull.

I understand the effeminate thing, chinese men are short and thin – not somethin you’d look for in a guy, but certainly tres attractive in a girl.

June 1, 2006 @ 2:54 pm | Comment

Are you a man or a woman?

I guess you’re a woman ‘cos you wouldn’t insult your own gender.

Actually I think Chinese woman have prettier faces…

June 2, 2006 @ 8:10 am | Comment

Also: when in China many people are quick to criticise western women on their size (which is often simply due to their bone structure!)

And yes American and Canadian women are pretty large generally. I’m of neither nationalities so…

‘Beauty’ is drummed into us by the media.

That you think Western faces are prettier… don’t you think that this is simply because of the beauty ideal on TV (ie. ‘tall nose, double eyelid’)?

The western people I know don’t try change a chinese person’s physical appearances. I’ve never said ‘ooh you gotta do something about that flat chest and bum!’ (;

A Chinese girl I know said that South East Asians are “ugly”. Just like that. I think that’s narrow-minded and opinionated.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder don’t you think?

Thanks. We need some Chinese perspectives here.

June 2, 2006 @ 8:25 am | Comment

Actually, Jenny i am a guy – not sure how i could prove it, but i rest assured i am. I agree that beauty is in the eye of the beholder and to some degree i’m forced by culture. I think a lot of chinese have a very ‘plain flat slightly featureless’ face – which i certainly don’t think is attractive. Hey, and i’m not saying i’m ”hot” either, just makin a plain honest statement.

It also doesn’t help that half of us dress like crap and walk around with their heads down. You only have to go to ‘chinese school’ and you know that a lot of those kids look like the ‘losers’ in class. Before you tear me apart … I was one of those. This again, i blame on an extreme conservative upbringing -and the fact that a lot of chinese kids are bought up physically in-active.

And the western woman and fat thing is more i think linked to excessive drinking, poor exercise and eating crap — which … again, i suppose is down to culture. Maybe a slightly slower metabolism too — but not bones. Sayin you’ve got big bones is one of those classic ‘i’m not gonna admit i’m fat’ syndromes.

But still, just because i slate over looks doesn’t mean i’m just simply shallow. I still believe that a personality is where one truly shines (though of course you do need SOME looks). Good lookin girls are ten a penny when you compare them to how many ”cool” girls there actually are … (you can switch that for guys too – though i couldn’t say for sure).

June 5, 2006 @ 1:01 pm | Comment

Yes, I hear what you’re saying. I’ve also also noticed that some black girls have a different weight distribution to white girls. Even when they’re underweight they do tend to have proportionately larger thighs and hips compared to waist…
Just have a look at models and you’ll notice that…

In the same way many white girls are also so when compared to Asians… the hip bones (skeletally) are even larger.

Then there’s just plain overweight, I hear you there, which make up a significent proportion…

Maybe it’s the eating habits rather than actual food in some respects… Asians tend to snack regularily which is better for metabolism and blood sugar levels…Westerners tend to eat less often but larger portions- this is a recipe for unusually excessive weight gain.

Those Asian guys that go overseas to study are very booky and flat emotionally, I agree, but I’ve met many completely opposite types in Asia as well… I was pleasantly suprised.

June 6, 2006 @ 4:10 am | Comment

Yeah, when i talk about overweight i do kinda mean excess fat — and hey, i am chinese, so maybe a bit more sensitive to it. For me, there is no reason why anyone should actually have a belly (unless they want to of course) — but then again, i’m harsh.

Personally i thought it the other way round – i work in an office see, and i’m surprised at how much sweets, chocolates and general junk people can get throughout the day — i’ve been bought up generally restrained on stuff like that so tend never to snack. I think excercise (and genetics) is more key for metabolism than food patterns and stuff — too many people rely on diets than hard work to get fit. I think drink is a major one too — it does seem like the only thing most people do !

I’m more talkin about asian born here – but, yeah the ones overseas are incredibly bookish too. Still i think in about twenty years time (maybe when i have children … hopefully) there might be a change.

June 6, 2006 @ 4:45 pm | Comment

So by that you mean that an adequately thin western girl (thru Asian eyes anyhow) will have the body shape of an Asian girl? I’m not sure about one thing though. I’ve seen some pretty anorexic looking white girls not coming close to what you’re describing. When a Chinese girl is overweight she gets a more square in shape while Western girls (and to a greater extent black girls) puts weight on the hips. Don’t you agree?

By your rationale of ‘big bones being a lame excuse for fat’ then it would be logical to conclude that, for example, a typical American male physical ideal is [actually] fat? We’re from a similar gene pool so of course white men and women are [generally] going to share this aspect of being larger built than their Asian counterparts. (Coincidently I think Joey from friends is on the fatter side of the thin pool).

But hang on… I think we have established what constitutes ‘fat’. Americans are shockingly fat in some parts of U.S. (I’m sorry to those I am offending, but I am saying it with great sympathy)… I don’t know about the English- never been there. Never been to Canada either. Give me an example of a Western actress that a Chinese man would consider overweight… Would you consider Jennifer Lopez too chubby to qualify as feminine?

I’ve heard it said by Chinese women that their men like them ‘cute’ (small and doe-eyed or something) and they say that Hollywood actresses may be beautiful but are not cute… I’ve been called an American so many times I could cry. The next assumption is that you must love hamburgers and have loose morals. I’m terribly short and small (something I’ve hated prior to arriving in Asia) now it’s a great thing here… I don’t know. I’ve always thought long legs, curvy hips etc. are terribly feminine. Would a Chinese guy like a slim white girl with curves and larger breasts? Are these off-putting?

I lived in Southern Taiwan for 3 years. I went to work in the same office from 9 til 7 everyday. Chinese do snack more often. Dried squid strips, crackers and sweets. And those little dried fruit thingies and salty dried prunes. Granted- they are a lot healthier than chips and chocolates. But it is medically proven that eating regularily evens out the blood sugar imbalances which cause sugar/fat cravings and weight gain. Anyway that’s boring (I come from a medical family).

By the wayk, I ate only Chinese food during this time and (ironically) put ON a pound or two. And believe me I can proudly say that I’ve eaten everything from chicken feet, pigs heart/intestines and even bat meat (which admittedly was accidently). And I’d try dog meat if the opportunity arose. Maybe… If I can forget my dog back home. I like (most) Chinese food. Oh and English food… well… I hope you’re not judging all western food by that…

Another thing: Chinese women in (Taiwan anyhow) like to speak with squeaky voices- why is this? I find it strange that the ideal for femininity is the shape of a young boy. Now importantly: this is purely my perspective. My brother has a Chinese girlfriend. Chinese would probably call her, well, large(er) than most. Kinda think he picked her for the curves. I think she’s gorgeous. I wouldn’t mind looking like her.

Did you know in some African men think that kissing a white woman is like kissing nothing ‘cos their lips are too thin? …and they don’t have enough of a bum. I think those black women on hip hop music videos are truly sexi. China is a helluva big place, sometimes people see it as one big, homogenous mass. Isn’t there a lot of variation of mannerisms and customs from province to province? Also is light skin really as important to Chinese men as to the women?

I think American and Northern American men are comparatively effeminate. My Australian friend called them ‘poofy’. They don’t take a strong stances and are always look apprehensive and talk an awful lot. Real softies. Which is something some women are attracted to, so perhaps I shouldn’t be so opinionated. It’s as if they weren’t brought up having their masculinity affirmed or something. BUT I have met exceptions, so boys please don’t push the panic button on me!

One of my female South African friends went Canada a while ago. Now we all hear from Canadian/ American men that many women there are abusive towards their men. She reckoned it was true! And she’s no doormat.

Now I’m all for women’s rights, but I think the West is going about it the wrong way. Now I forsee a few dismayed women out there as a result of me saying this: why is being more of a women entail adopting those bossy masculine qualities? It’s connected with that bringing up a child or cooking is inferior! Hell it’s not, it’s one of the most noble and undervalued things, with huge social repercussions. Now I’m not saying that women should give up there careers and goals. I enjoy being feminine and having a man act like a man.

Being ultimately feminine does not mean being a man.

Now, in Asian cultures there is on very different components to sexuality. We have the damage done by Christianity. Now some of you naturally aren’t ‘practising’ christians, but one cannot deny that subliminal thought patterns take more than a few generations to die out. White women are specifically prone to sexual guilt (repression): it’s bad to be the temptress you are. (Incidently I think it’s possibly the reason women have less orgasms that men. It would be interesting whether it were any different in Asia). Coupled with feminism this is producing a very strange kind of male alter ego (for lack of a better word).White men, on the other hand, have the famous Madonna whore complex. They want a inhibited vixen in bed and a pious maternal figure for the mother of their children.

Asian men (well let me speak for Thai then) don’t have this split a s badly as Western men. This makes all the difference for me.

Whatever. Just sharing my thoughts.

June 15, 2006 @ 10:41 am | Comment

Mmm, i do agree that women of different cultures put on weight differently – but i don’t agree that it nessesatates to being overweight ?! Jeniffer Lopez has a kick-ass body btw – i think there’s a big difference between curvy healthy and curvy unhealthy. I do think that asian women tend to become shapeless once they get overweight though that might be the relatively small bones. It’s like saying a taller person can get away with being more tubby. However i know what you mean by shape – i think the hip hop curvaciousness is very sexy. Oh and yeah, light skin is kinda important to men as well as women — though then again, personally i think ANY man won’t give a crap about the skin if they had to choose between a nice face or figure — or indeed a great personality (well not all men i suppose).

I do think it’s unfortunate that women have adopted a lot of the worst traits of men for feminism. You know, the loutish behaviour, association of domestic life as a weakness and the need to be just as loud, and stupid and discriminate as the men. Hell, in a lot of relationships it seems women are pulling the strings now — they don’t even HAVE to be nice to the men anymore. A lot of people don’t push for equality, just themselves – which i suppose explains the high divorce rates. Then again – i think in the longrun it probably is a good thing … Sayin that i do think people in general are getting quite emotionally weak – people get worried over the littlest of things and get horribly upset over the tiniest of comments – you gotta have a bit of perspective, the fact that we’re on this forum makes us ones of the lucky few (in perspect.), we’ve already beat the odds as it were when we’re born as ourselves. The fact that most people grow up with too much luxury has made them weak to adversity – and maybe, less tolerant if things don’t go their way. And most important – less grateful. Maybe that’s what you mean by men being effeminate. Whilst i don’t think crying basically means you’re weak, i do think that that men cry a bit too much now….

Si

Ps – The taiwanese with squeky voice is well wierd .. tehehe. Might be fun for a while, but would get annoyin after a bit. A lot of people fancy each other based on voice actually ….

June 15, 2006 @ 2:12 pm | Comment

Mmm, i do agree that women of different cultures put on weight differently – but i don’t agree that it nessesatates to being overweight ?! Jeniffer Lopez has a kick-ass body btw – i think there’s a big difference between curvy healthy and curvy unhealthy. I do think that asian women tend to become shapeless once they get overweight though that might be the relatively small bones. It’s like saying a taller person can get away with being more tubby. However i know what you mean by shape – i think the hip hop curvaciousness is very sexy. Oh and yeah, light skin is kinda important to men as well as women — though then again, personally i think ANY man won’t give a crap about the skin if they had to choose between a nice face or figure — or indeed a great personality (well not all men i suppose).

I do think it’s unfortunate that women have adopted a lot of the worst traits of men for feminism. You know, the loutish behaviour, association of domestic life as a weakness and the need to be just as loud, and stupid and discriminate as the men. Hell, in a lot of relationships it seems women are pulling the strings now — they don’t even HAVE to be nice to the men anymore. A lot of people don’t push for equality, just themselves – which i suppose explains the high divorce rates. Then again – i think in the longrun it probably is a good thing … Sayin that i do think people in general are getting quite emotionally weak – people get worried over the littlest of things and get horribly upset over the tiniest of comments – you gotta have a bit of perspective, the fact that we’re on this forum makes us ones of the lucky few (in perspect.), we’ve already beat the odds as it were when we’re born as ourselves. The fact that most people grow up with too much luxury has made them weak to adversity – and maybe, less tolerant if things don’t go their way. And most important – less grateful. Maybe that’s what you mean by men being effeminate. Whilst i don’t think crying basically means you’re weak, i do think that that men cry a bit too much now….

Si

Ps – The taiwanese with squeky voice is well wierd .. tehehe. Might be fun for a while, but would get annoyin after a bit. A lot of people fancy each other based on voice actually ….

June 15, 2006 @ 2:13 pm | Comment

******Asian men complain about white guys stealing all their women away but as an asian woman, i will tell you this—we are not opposed to asian men, but who has the balls/chutzpah/guts/testosterone to get to her first? The white guys.

The asian way of courting a girl is slower and more subtle, which gives the girl time to hem and haw. The american/white way is much more direct, aggressive, and faster, giving her less time to be indecisive and offering a chance to try out the relationship. Before you know it, she’s taken.

It IS a game, and is IS a race. whoever gets there fastest wins. If asian guys want to play the slow & steady path, they need to court girls who exclusively date asian guys, or those still living in asia. That method does NOT work here in America.*******

June 17, 2006 @ 1:59 pm | Comment

Schnapes, I like what you said about ‘a lot of people don’t push for equality just themselves’. That’s what it is. Have you ever seen the types Riki lake/ Jerry Springer? Have you ever noticed how people speak over one another. Two people can have an entire ‘conversation’ with neither listening to the other. Apparantly the one that shouts loudest has his needs heard first… Makes me want to push my TV out the window.

A Chinese male friend of mine was saying how hard it was to adapt/ adjust to western style pressure to assert yourself and your views, something contrary to typical Asian upbringing.

One thing that makes me a little apprehensive is the mother-in-law element. Chinese men are like Italian men in respect to the attachment of their ‘mother’. To be honest its something ive observed to be a sore point to many newly married Chinese women (in Chinese setting).

There’s a lot of sites with Western men droning on about their super mojo and other endowments. They think Chinese women prefer them over and above western men. Um.. Most of the women in China are married to Chinese men, most of the American men in America are married to American women…

So here’s the fundamental state of affairs. Firstly there are a large number of bitter western men concentrated in Asia and sour from their perceived raw deal: the proverbial unforgiving western women. The latter group -apparently- have their nails out for men, less out of a need to create a stable egalitarian atmosphere, but sparked by a frenzied feministic raging about what bastards men are. Then there are the bruised Western female egos in Asia who feel rejected, let’s face it. Now I’m gonna bring this up free of any emotional burden because white men do not, well, turn me on.

Another contributing factor is Western men in Asia. Now I’m not going to fall in the trap of calling all my Western brothers with their Asian girls nerdy geeks. Even though some are. That’s too simplistic. But I would recognize an obvious perk to his move to Asia to be, namely, Asian women. Naturally many businessmen have a largely career-focused driving force behind the geographic cross-over to Asia. There are statistically more men in the business world than there are women. However I doubt the English teacher crowd are the new jet-setters in the East. Mmm. Interestingly a larger proportion are men. This would be an interesting study. Innitial motivating factors?

Hey nycgirl It’s good to have a Chinese girl on this matter. We hear enough from White guys. Are you American born?

June 20, 2006 @ 1:44 am | Comment

Schnapes, I like what you said about ‘a lot of people don’t push for equality just themselves’. That?s what it is. Have you ever seen the types Riki lake/ Jerry Springer? Have you ever noticed how people speak over one another. Two people can have an entire ‘conversation’ with neither listening to the other. Apparantly the one that shouts loudest has his needs heard first… Makes me want to push my TV out the window.

A Chinese male friend of mine was saying how hard it was to adapt/ adjust to western style pressure to assert yourself and your views, something contrary to typical Asian upbringing.

One thing that makes me a little apprehensive is the mother-in-law element. Chinese men are like Italian men in respect to the attachment of their ‘mother’. To be honest its something ive observed to be a sore point to many newly married Chinese women (in Chinese setting).

There’s a lot of sites with Western men droning on about their super mojo and other endowments. They think Chinese women prefer them over and above western men. Um.. Most of the women in China are married to Chinese men, most of the American men in America are married to American women…

So here’s the fundamental state of affairs. Firstly there are a large number of bitter western men concentrated in Asia and sour from their perceived raw deal: the proverbial unforgiving western women. The latter group -apparently- have their nails out for men, less out of a need to create a stable egalitarian atmosphere, but sparked by a frenzied feministic raging about what bastards men are. Then there are the bruised Western female egos in Asia who feel rejected, let’s face it. Now I?m gonna bring this up free of any emotional burden because white men do not, well, turn me on.

Another contributing factor is Western men in Asia. Now I?m not going to fall in the trap of calling all my Western brothers with their Asian girls nerdy geeks. Even though some are. That?s too simplistic. But I would recognize an obvious perk to his move to Asia to be, namely, Asian women. Naturally many businessmen have a largely career-focused driving force behind the geographic cross-over to Asia. There are statistically more men in the business world than there are women. However I doubt the English teacher crowd are the new jet-setters in the East. Mmm. Interestingly a larger proportion are men. This would be an interesting study. Innitial motivating factors?

Hey nycgirl It’s good to have a Chinese girl on this matter. We hear enough from White guys. Are you American born?

June 20, 2006 @ 1:45 am | Comment

nyc girl – i know what you mean, everywhere it seems that the white guys with chinese girls far outweigh the opposite. Though to be honest, i think chinese girls have it great at the mo, they’re scoring a lot higher than their leaugue if you know what i mean (and this IS not biased cause my sis agrees, we’ve seen a lot of really good looking white guys out with fairly average/below average chinese girls). I think white girls should be more the ones to complain – (though anyone who complains about themselves as part of a group is a loser – i couldn’t care less if my race was losin all the woman or whatever, as long as it isn’t me personally).

A lot of ‘unsuccessful’ chinese men just end up with a lot better lookin women from China instead – which again, i suppose is back to the money/status thing. Well, maybe it IS a status thing ? I work in the city, and to be honest, the actual amount of other successful looking chinese male suits is pretty low …. maybe cause most of us take geeky introverted jobs. I’ve even had a gander at web dating sites a while back and what’s horrific is that nearly ALL chinese girls had ‘power’ and/or ‘money’ in their ‘turn on’ sections …. would anyone vouch for that, honestly ?

I agree with the mother thing j – i think they are completely possesive over their sons. My cousin was dating a white girl ages back, and she basically refused to let her in the house and it broke them up. He’s married to a chinese girl now.

Personally i think westerners have greater chance of being more individualist and alternative than ethnic borns, just cause they arn’t brought up in a strict work oriented environment (my parents did not spend that much time with us as kids – too busy with work, was even sent to live elsewhere till i was old enough). A lot of chinese kids (both boys and girls) end up growing up a bit bland and overly sensible ….. few are actually truly interesting (though i’d say that about people in general – but it’s relative).

But to be honest, i think most men are lookin for a pretty, petite (you have no idea how most guys LOVE smaller girls – almost a bit fetishistic) girl who doesn’t make too much of a fuss – and most women are lookin for a nice house, success and money. It’s genetics. Western men and eastern women make a hell of a lot of sense…

June 20, 2006 @ 4:49 pm | Comment

Let me keep things short.

Great comments, full of insights into personal experiences, puzzling observations and hearsays … that add even more to the unexplainable mystery of Chinese men.

All these mysteries will persistent in the sense that Chinese as a cultural community are far more diverse than the English speaking community, (not in terms of skin color, obviously). People’s attitude and way of life are changing at the moment of our discussion. The different speed of change within China is much to blame even though internet insularity virtually impossible. I am a Chinese male and I myself know how much I have to change just to cope with my own compatriots. For this reason, I am very suspicious of any claim made about all Chinese when it is based on experiences gathered in another Asian country be it Japan or Singapore, or in just one province in the Chinese heartland.

I happen to agree more with the female commentators when it comes to relationships. Men often don’t get the larger picture and I am Chinese, and premised on the logic proposed in this thread, I should be more effeminate, I guess.

If dating and marriage are games, then Chinese men are not up to these games. Not because I am short by whatever measurement, but because I, if could speak for other Chinese, am pretty much fed up by even the notion. Why should I play this game if it’s no good for my family nor myself. What’s the purpose? I am not preaching abstinence but is it good for health, including physical health if the gaming involves excessive self-intoxication and superficialization of attractiveness? Does this sound anachronistic in China?

I think I could be regarded as enlightened in sex thanks to my Western education in this subject. I have had both Chinese and “white” girlfriends and don’t consider virginity a whole big issue but it depends on whom and I would definitely appreciate and respect it. I like certain features on some white girls, “whiteness” is not one of them. The way they approach things and the way they talk are greatly different, which I hope could make up for certain lackings in my way of thinking. I think that communication is perhaps the biggest barrier. I had a hard time trying to figure out what they held of me. For Chinese, dating and marriage follow certain mental rituals: visual attraction followed by a long ordeal of checking and sounding (in a playful way, ideally) until the relationship is sealed by a kind of soul friendship. In this sense, relationship was asexualized and physical compatibility is supposed to be less important for long-term relationship. (I am not sure for what percentage of the population I am speaking for.)

In China, if I find some attrative white girls, which I did, they are far and few between and I would hardly put my Chinese sensitivity about face on the line for anything but a possible disappointment either by a turn-down or by a vase. Just as any Korean could tell you that the image of feministic Korean women is not true, I never encountered a white girl that was aggressive or assertive enough to make the initiative, letting me stay on the receiving end of romantic adventures as stereotyped in Western films. Plain-looking I may appear, I never came across as a uncivilized country bumpkin as someone has tried to convince Chinese of being.

Do I find white girls less feminine and white male more masculine? It’s all depends in what mood I am. I mean, how could I define feminine or masculine? Fecundity v. virility? Intellectual power v. Physique? For Chinese there are only concepts like Yin and Yang, and Western derivatives of masculinity such as power, build and aggressiveness are not necessarily associated with Yang. And what good for the extra pound of muscle? It doesn’t make me look better in suits or help me scare away scoundrels.

Besides, if I am effeminate, I must look for more Yang. No. As an average Chinese will tell you, the scariest thing a Chinese man could imagine is to marry a girl with too many “Yang” qualities. The substitious aversion again female dominance at least in public is to the degree of perversity, in most Chinese cities (Shanghai is another case), not to say rural areas, where substitutions have led to frequent female tragedies.

Class or sexual compatibilities play little role here. Chinese society offers the same social mobility for Chinese men as the US for American men. Global classification is more absurd still. Will a poor British girl reject a poor Chinese boy as hopelessly adject proletariat more than a Chinese girl would do?

Richard: You know, whiteness isn’t a monopolistic feature of “white” people and it’s common among Asian people to associate whiteness with wealth and status, a common stereotype formed in many agrarian societies whether impacted by white colonialism or not. It doesn’t apply to men for women in China are emacipated I guess.

June 21, 2006 @ 12:48 am | Comment

schnapes, liuleo, thanks to both of you for your perceptive and illuminating posts.

June 21, 2006 @ 4:10 am | Comment

I remember when I was at uni and I had a Chinese girlfriend. She said how she knew some other Chinese guys liked her but never had the courage to ask her out. I didn’t go up to her in a bar and pull her right there and then, but I moved our relationship forward progressively. She tried to be coy and I didn’t let her put me off.

After things got moer serious she said she liked the fact I showed her I was interested. If you are really attracted to someone you don’t hide it indefinitely. I’m not so sure it’s about “different courtship techniques”. I have a Chinese friend who is a really nice guy but also will show girls he likes them. I think actually it’s about confidence, something that a lot of Chinese guys still don’t have towards women.

Perhaps this has been compounded because Chinese women are more assertive than they used to be, so the guys don’t know how to respond to that – or they’re not willing to change.

June 21, 2006 @ 2:13 pm | Comment

Before I discovered the power of english and hollywood, I had no idea that chinese men are

1. effiminate
2. unattractive
3. gayish
4. either nerd or gansters

and chinese in general have

1. flat featureless faces
2. slant eyes.

since I grew up in China, my self-confidence of being a chinese and male is particularly stubborn and strong.

But even after years of repeated subliminal negative messages and blatant racism stereotypings in media, I am quite surprised the inferirotiy complex hasn’t been drilled into my head yet, at least not that I am not aware of.

Apparently the education process is ongoing, so maybe someday i will even grow to hate and pity myself :d

June 21, 2006 @ 2:59 pm | Comment

For me, you guys seem to be making this too complicated. Sure there are plenty of cultural factors, but I think it comes down primarily to size. NO, not that! Get your minds out of the gutter!

A lot of Chinese men and women tend to be smaller-framed than most Westerners (all matters of weight aside). I think that most men prefer to be with a woman who is smaller than they are – it makes them feel stronger, protective, more masculine. And I think that most women prefer men who are bigger than they are as a part of that same dynamic. I say this as an independent woman with a good career who was always pretty much a tomboy – but hey, I still like men who are taller, more muscular, etc., than I am.

So Western men, particularly insecure Western men (sorry, guys, this is just a gross generalization) pursue Chinese women because they see them as delicate, maybe more submissive, etc. (which is hilarious when you contemplate the force of nature that is the Chinese mother!), and this reinforces their sense of masculinity. But Chinese men/Western women – smaller Chinese men and big Western women – it just doesn’t work as well.

The answer? Western women should hang out with those big Northern Chinese men. 🙂

June 21, 2006 @ 10:59 pm | Comment

Wow. That sounds…oh so attractive. Let me check my dayplanner.

Mr. Right, you’re wondering why you can’t get laid?! Sheesh. Step away from the computer, and work on developing some social skills. You’ll be amazed.

June 22, 2006 @ 1:03 am | Comment

To hell with tiny little simpering girls! Give me GRACE JONES!

(click and then scroll down):

http://www.jamaicanpride.com/Celebrities/grace_jones.htm#Stills

(Fortunately I’m taller than she is. Barely.)

And she will sing to me:

“I’m not perfect,
But I’m perfect…for you….”

June 22, 2006 @ 4:03 am | Comment

You guys are so wrong. Chinese male are more macho than their western counterparts. They expect to take care of those tiny little girls. They want to be the MAN !!! Plus… they don’t go after western girls because they are not interested, they (as most of the western guys here) prefer the slim, sexy (and maybe easier?) Chinese girls.

June 22, 2006 @ 9:03 pm | Comment

Yes, Hesiem, and they “take care” of them by beating the shit out of them and driving them to suicide.

June 23, 2006 @ 1:04 am | Comment

Seems to me that Richard TPD is looking at the issue the wrong way round. The question isn’t so much why Chinese men have no time for western women as why Chinese females are so keen to hook up with whitey.

In the mainland at least (I lived there for five years) you have a situation where a traditional patriarchal culture resonates deeply through society, but at the same time the Communist party’s efforts to promote the status of women, combined with the recent unravelling of the state’s various methods of social control, have presented many urban women with the opportunity to live autonomous, independent lives. Given the choice between a nouveau-feudal Chinese man–who cares for her a little less than he does his BMW and probably has a bit (or a lot) of action on the side–and an exotic, blue-eyed big nose who treats her with a little respect and validates her sense of herself as a modern, cosmopolitan woman… Well, she’ll probably go with the big nose.

Note that this only applies to urban, educated women. Try to get a date with a farmer girl in the countryside or high in the mountains of Tibet and you won’t get very far. My sense is that most rural areas remain very traditional and any woman who doesn’t take care to abide by the village’s rustic norms will find herself on the first bus to the big city, either by choice or at the urging of her family. This observation validates my sense that the conditions of Chinese modernity serve to facilitate Chinese woman-Western man relationships.

So why don’t Chinese men go after Western women? I’m sure it has something to do with the fact that within the context of China’s highly competitive society it’s just not the thing to do. It’s still important in China to marry someone with a similar background and social status (I’m talking about young people on their first marriages, not tycoons and their trophy wives.) Also it seems to me that Chinese men have pretty inflexible ideas about food and the home, and a western wife who doesn’t cook Chinese or put little doilies on the sofas just wouldn’t work for them.

The few Chinese men I know who married western women fall into two categories: they’re either pretty much completely westernized, or else they are complete bumpkins that were taken advantage of by cunning white women… (Just kidding. Sort of.) The ones who were totally westernized usually end up being pretty miserable, though I must say the bumpkins always seem to be optimistic, happy-go-lucky types who, if their noses fell off–and they happened to notice–would laugh themselves silly.

In short, I really don’t think it’s got anything to do with western women. It’s just that Chinese society as it exists today just shuts them out–at least romantically. Western women looking for a good time should really head to South Asia–where they will be worshipped as an incarnation of Indra–or Africa. In fact one rather unattractive American classmate of mine has been in Africa for years, where she is much sought after by the expats there who are wary of mixing with the locals due to the prevalence of assorted infectious diseases…

June 23, 2006 @ 1:49 am | Comment

Sidebar on the Korean War:

It’s true that ChiCom involvement in Korea turned the tide and led to the half-century-old standoff at the DMZ. However, China’s historians now agree that in order to push the U.S. out of North Korea the Chinese army had to take troops away from a planned invasion of Taiwan, which the PLA would have taken easily if it didn’t get distracted by the Korean conflict. So you lost Taiwan, but you got North Korea. Oh well, the motherland might still be divided but you can always fall back on “juche.”

June 23, 2006 @ 2:16 am | Comment

Hmmm, so THAT’s why those African men go after White Women in China. “You probably don’t have HIV.” Silver tongued devil!

June 23, 2006 @ 3:27 am | Comment

who is the fucker deleting my post? fuck you! Lisa, I am a China man. I am 1.82m, 75kg and can ml 7times/day. do you want date with me? pls email me at benicebody96217@yahoo.com. I’ll tell you how a China man can do.

btw, ivan, are you a russian or what? you definately smart but the pity thing is i can beat you shit out of your ass if i meet you in the street. allways remeber when you in China behave yourself like a China man!

June 23, 2006 @ 11:01 am | Comment

Sorry, Mr Right, but Lisa is mine.

And yes I’m Russian. Actually I spent ten years in the Spesnatz, the Russian Army’s special operations forces. That’s where I learned how to be gay, when I was lonely in Afghanistan. (All the best Russian soldiers are gay, you know.) I’m 1.93 m and 101 kg. So, if you ever meet me in the street, you’ll have a very different kind of experience.

Kiss kiss!

June 23, 2006 @ 12:36 pm | Comment

Ivan, please stop – you’re making my sides split!

June 23, 2006 @ 1:31 pm | Comment

Great amusing thread, I have dated chinese men, travelled in Asia and lived in Caribbean – how shallow is all this – if you love someone be it chinese, portugese, or american do you really focus on their skin colour or size of cock – no you focus on energy – energy that grows and you learn from each other, the beauty of two sexes from different cultures is the exploration and ability to see each other as strangers each day, to get to know one another again, to over come stupid cultural ideas that dont work in this time frame – chinese men secretly adore western women, but fear gesting from “the borg” while western women like strength that comes from inside not hairy chests – western men, on the whole are disillusioned so head off to asia to get their wallets and cocks thrashed to pieces, the few good ones with the sense to stay at home are all happily married family men with little need for illicit shit in their lives –

June 23, 2006 @ 6:34 pm | Comment

People, people, people…………. It is soooo obvious why Chinese men don’t couple up with Western women. They prefer Chinese women, just as I do!! Being a Westerner who has lived in China (Shenyang, Yantai, Shanghai, and Liuzhou) for 5 years I can’t imagine ever having to settle for a Western woman again! So…….. why would I think that my male Chinese friends and co-workers would ever settle for a Western woman? Not only are Chinese women beautiful and stylish (unlike the Western women you see in such places as Malone’s in Shanghai…….. fat, poorly dressed, no make-up or hair style) but the Chinese girls values are wonderful. Loyal to family and husband. Hard working and uncomplaining. Good conversationalist. And most importantly…… very loving.

To answer the question, “Why don’t you see Chinese guys with Western women?” The answer is because they don’t have to settle for second best!! That’s also why you see so many middle aged, multi-national company executives divorcing their 40 year old wives and marrying a young beautiful Chinese girl as I will be doing in a couple more months.

To you Western women in China: Get a clue from the Chinese girls. Get rid of your unstylish clothes, get a hair cut, put on some make-up (and YES you really need it), and fix your attitude!! The reason you don’t get asked out, by Chinese or Westerners, is your fault.

June 24, 2006 @ 12:32 pm | Comment

Surely it is blindingly obvious why more Chinese women end up with Western men that the other way around – economic reasons. This is not to denigrate Chinese or Asian women; in any area of the world where the women are poorer that the expats, you find that they end up together. It’s a simple, old-fashioned agreement: you give me your youth and beauty, I’ll give you some pin money and a passport. The same thing used to happen in Eastern Europe, where you’d find gorgeous Czech and Polish women marrying fat ugly Western men because it was a hell of a lot better than staying in e.g. Warsaw. Hell, if I were a smart Chinese girl, I’d marry almost anyone to get out of here.

And as for Chinese men, I can only offer a personal opinion. I personally (as a Western woman living in Beijing) do not find Chinese men, in general, attractive because:

– poor personal hygiene. That lethal combo of stale garlic, tobacco and unwashed body, hair and clothes is no aphrodisiac
– it’s difficult to find a Chinese man who can stimulate intellectually. The Chinese education system, at its best, churns out graduates who can draw 70,000 characters, memorise Communist Party diktat and who are good with numbers. Chinese men in general are not creative, inspirational thinkers. You also cannot talk politics, foreign policy, or in any way criticise China.
– penises. OK I have to join the debate on this one, crude as it may be. Of course a lasting relationship is based on more than penis size. But initial attraction, on which lasting love is based, requires a decent level of sexual satisfaction. Look at it this way: if Western men all had their penis size tattooed on their heads, you can bet that the guys with “3 inches” on their heads wouldn’t get many dates. It so happens that women have to wait until they unwrap their men before they can ascertain his size, by which time attaraction in other areas might already have grown. But with Chinese men, you know they mostly have tiny dicks. Why bother with the whole seduction thing when you know at the end you’re only going to get a limp worm?
– And one more thing: although in Shanghai and Taiwan, people may mingle more and be less amazed by the sight of a Westerner, here in Beijing you still get gormless stares and shouts of “Hello hello” just for being white. So when being asked out by Chinese men, you get the distinct impression it’s got a lot to do with curiosity rather than genuine attraction or interest. Rather like they might poke an animal with a stick to see if it moves. This is also not much of a turn on.

Luckily, I’m one of those girls that found a great Western man in Beijing. Phew.

June 24, 2006 @ 8:43 pm | Comment

Hey AM — interesting to see a westerner’s view in a chinese world’s POV. A spot of bitterness though i guess that couldn’t be helped… i can’t believe the conversations gone down to penis size … ouch ! but then again, there’s mention of westerner’s being fat so tit for tat i guess.

I do however agree that whilst i’ve never had a chance to see it, chinese are probably more racist than the english if the roles were reversed (in my case i’m english of chinese origin living in england).

June 25, 2006 @ 4:03 pm | Comment

Heheheh. I’m a Chinese guy who didn’t have any difficulty with Western ladies, but that might be because
1) I keep myself clean and I wear suits that fit
2) I was educated in an Ivy League university
3) I don’t bitch and complain about anything.
4) I wasn’t afraid to let the girl know I had money.
5) I wasn’t afraid to take the fucking initiative in the relationship.
6) I made more money than most Western expats I knew.

A list of things that worked for me:
1) Don’t allow yourself to be scared of a Western chick just because she is Western; think of her as a human being. For flattery’s sake, think of her as a really, really beautiful, intelligent, witty person (and a good lay), and the right compliments and conversations should easily flow from there.
2) Take the lead, but don’t push. Make new suggestions of things to do, but if she’s uncomfortable (which might happen considering you two are from different cultures) don’t push it.
3) Let her blab on… don’t act offended if she says something really retarded, but don’t let it slide, either. Use humor to defuse awkward situations like that.
4) Make lots of money, spend lots of money (on her, not those massage parlor girls.)
5) Above all else, make her feel like a valued EQUAL in the relationship. Most Chinese guys think they will be the center of gravity in any relationship, which is understandable given the culture, but also explains why they don’t get dates unless they’re extremely wealthy/powerful or the chick is desperate (jk, jk.) Really, just relax, accept her for who she is, and hire a maidservant (it makes that temptation to make her serve you that much more bearable.) Just kidding about the maidservant part. You have no idea how much Western girls like it when you cook a romantic dinner for them.

June 25, 2006 @ 6:06 pm | Comment

“You have no idea how much Western girls like it when you cook a romantic dinner for them.”

WOW! t-co! I had no idea until you told me! And until now, I never realised that “Western girls” like being seduced through a checklist!

t-co, are you sure your real identity isn’t THIS guy? I think your REAL name is Smoove B:

http://www.theonion.com/content/node/37319

June 25, 2006 @ 8:49 pm | Comment

Interesting, t-co, that here and in several of your posts in the Duck Pond you make sure everyone knows that you make a lot of money. I just hope you realize that when you keep telling people you make a lot of money, it raises red flags. People who are really secure about their incomes seldom if ever point it out to others. Only those who have doubts about themselves will raise such topics (“I make so much money in China”) again and again. This is just some friendly advice: if you really want to impress people, your current strategy is all wrong.

June 25, 2006 @ 9:08 pm | Comment

Ivan, how on earth do you find links like that? So perfect. It could’ve been written by our rich, successful young friend t_co!

June 25, 2006 @ 9:10 pm | Comment

Yeah, ditto what Richard said about how talking about how much money you have raises red flags.

Among other things, even if you really are making a relatively large amount of money, there is a class of people who think it’s a sign of vulgarity and poor breeding to talk about how much money you have.
And in the future, little brother, you really won’t want to alienate those people, get it?

Alright, Smoove-t-co. Now good luck on your next voyage of interplanetary cocoa-love, complete with romantic home-cooked dinner and a rented limousine. But PLEASE tell me that you won’t be wearing gold-plated rings on all your fingers, or perfume named “Nubian Prince” sold by business-suited followers of Louis Farrakhan? 🙂

June 26, 2006 @ 2:26 am | Comment

Paul, did your western wife run off and leave you for a guy with a soul – and now your bitter and twisted and only wish to brain wash some finger size chick with no identity other than I am borg, must marry western dick head to get out of this place or I will be thrown in a grave heap !

My western girlfriend friend has been married to a chinese guy for 12 yrs – he adores her, and has no time for chinese girls because he got one better – a hot western chick that loves him for him, not his wallet or a meal ticket to a better style of life

Your remarks about western women will come back to haunt you when you go off on your next biz trip because your so ” successful” and your little finger size wife will be off entertaining another “one of you desperate western geriatrics” for further payment – until you get back to pay the bills

June 26, 2006 @ 8:48 am | Comment

I was sarcastic with my above post.

June 26, 2006 @ 4:07 pm | Comment

Satirizing the views of certain commenters on this board.

June 27, 2006 @ 12:26 pm | Comment

To Jessica: this Asian man does NOT like to date girls that are less intelligent, less educated or subservient girls, or girls that have “typical Asian” characteristics. Indeed, I find Western girls’s confidence and independence a big TURN ON. I love girls like that. Besides, blonde is a bonus in my eyes.

Ghosh, I’ve been asking this white chick at my university for a date almost five times already. She keeps eluding me (have no clues why). Guess I have to try a different girl then ^_^.

P.S: I’m an international student at an U.S university

June 28, 2006 @ 1:34 am | Comment

All the posts are of good value, very thought provoking. I would like to give my own understanding as to why there is this white male/asian female and NO asian male/white female relationships IN THE WEST.

This is a topic involving two things 1)sex 2)marriage, having a girl friend is different to having a wife.

to address the sex topic, the reason asian men do not have lots of sex with white women is because most asian men are immigrants, they WORK all day, they barely have any relatives in the WEST, so they do not have time for white women. PLEASE NOTE, ASIAN MEN ARE BROTHLE’S BEST CUSTOMERS!! White men have their home in the WEST, it is quite natural to want some sexual adventure. Men want sex and white men is no exception. Now, Asian Women want someone to take care of them.

In some rare cases, I see old white man with a 20 something asian woman, in this case, I call it a sexual deviation. It’s like someone wanting to bond their grand parents, really sick, but then there are lunatics outthere who want to bonk children. I can’t explain why, but old/young deviations exist.

In a lot of white men/asian women instances, the women are like ASIAN MICHAEL JACKSONS, they just want to be white have white children (though the kids look white while young, they lose their whiteness when they get older) and also, isn’t it better if they just adopted a PURE white kid if she loves white so much instead of having a bastard of a cancer. The offspring is a genetic mutation and is properly named CANCER OF A PEOPLE. Some call it racial suicide, I call it racial migration.

I mean, if all white women went to china, I bet there’ll be lots and lots of asian men/white women phenomemone.

In the end, I think it is all some what sick, I just feel it in my guts, I can’t explain why either. I have nothing against white or asians individually, but collectively in their situation just makes me sick. Don’t they want white/asian babies no more. Doesn’t race matter?

This is all a rather recent phenomemon, keep in mind though that only few asian women/white men instances exist, though they are the most eye catching. you never count the number of asian/asian instances but always the deviation.

I personally dated white women before, and I like them but not to the point of having babies because I want asian babies and I want them to have white babies because I love white people. I have to confess, growing up in Australia, I never dated an asian woman because I find most of them superficial, and the intelligent ones are SOOOO cocky, I don’t think they can make good mothers, I mean in 2) marriage, a man want a woman to take care of him and he want to love and take care of the woman, but when women are soooo independant, it is like living with another man. Seriously!!!

I think the reason we have this debate is because most people are blood patriots, not meaning we are all racists. If you are asian, you want to have asian babies to continue your racial line. if you are white, you want to have white babies to contineu your racial line. But guys, some times there are just those people who do not care, and maybe are sexual perverts to love an oldie or racial perverts. I mean these are all sexual perversions, and are in the minority.

Do all asian men here want to go out with an asian money digger women who can’t cook and do house work, basically the asian version of the white woman? also asian women tend to be more childish, white women more mature in their attitudes, you can tell this by the way they speak, all asian women speak in tiny squeek voices, while white women talk properly, and have MORE DIGNITY. but I think there is this racial barrier, where white men can not see what we asian men see, nor can asian men see what white men see. I personally find a Michael Jackson Asian Woman who look like a sumo with DYED HAIR going with a stupid though VERY ARROGANT look white dude. I mean, they’ll have cancer gened kids who are complete racial mutations which means they are NOT WHITE nor ASIAN. Asians have the last laugh cuz in almost all cases, the kid though look white starting off looks like wogs latter in life and works in a supermarket (chinese). there are plenty of bastards in Kazakastan.

Forget it, look just go and grab an asian wife and have lots and lots of healthy asian babies and drum in your blood patriot act into their tiny craniums so they’ll have more and more asian babies. Just forget about those with no racial instinct.

Thank you for listening to my rant!

July 2, 2006 @ 6:33 am | Comment

WTF is Chinese Nazi talking about ?!! Who actually gives a crap about patriotism and racial integration (which is good btw) in years to come ?!!

We’ll be dead before we even notice it.

July 2, 2006 @ 10:46 am | Comment

It is not about seeing what is in front of you, but what remains after you are gone. Don’t you want to leave something posterity can look back fondly at you? don’t you want to be remembered in history?

if you don’t give a crap about patriotism and racial integrity then that is your business and your choice, but there are people out there who cares about the race of their children.

it’s like a pedophile saying who cares about the age of the person you have sex with, i mean if you don’t care, then that’s your concern not ours.

July 3, 2006 @ 1:59 am | Comment

There are too many pressing issues (poverty, famine, social injuctice) in this world to worry about, things which MATTER – rather than what race your children are. You must be a complete loser (or shortsighted or racist which is worst) to think that people will remember fondly of you for marrying same race (cause they won’t). In fact i reckon somewhere along the line your children or grandchildren will mix just like the rest of us – it’s inevitable.

I don’t blame you for your thoughts though – i think you’re one of the many BBCs/ABCs who having been ostracized at school/work am finding it hard to integrate into white society – so you hate them instead. Maybe jealous that chinese girls prefer whites too… It’s not your fault, it’s most likely your parents fault for bringin you up too differently from the average family.

ps – I hope my ancestors will remember me cause i was a good person. No more and no less.

August 3, 2006 @ 8:05 pm | Comment

I spent my teenage years in the Philippines and my classmates and I thought the Filipino guys were hot and there was a lot going on between white girls and the Filipino guys. It was attitude. Physically they share the same build as Chinese men, mannerisms: cross their legs, hold a cigarette in a feminine way, ect…. but there was a definate flurtatiousness in encounters. In my early twenties I lived in Taiwan and I definately got a different feeling from chinese men…a “not interested in romance with you” feeling that I was not expecting…

August 16, 2006 @ 6:43 pm | Comment

There is one race…the human race. Get with the program…we’re moving on to a global community.

August 17, 2006 @ 3:42 pm | Comment

All this is much hemming and hawwing about something quite simple. It all boils down to attraction. I would like to see some of these fat white guys with young chinese women. I think the whole thing is a myth. I know an online relationship I was in with a chinese woman who said my letters and poetry touched her. She described us a soulmates and said I had filled her heart with love. She ended the relationship as soon as she saw a picture of me. ” She could not accept me because I am so big”. She was honest about it at least. I can face it. I am fat and trying to lose weight, and all my devotion and love and clever poems and love letters that move a woman to tears means nothing compared to my big fat ass. Such is the way of things between men and women of any race or culture. FYI: I have lost weight and am very dedicated weightlifter and a musician. I am no loser who doesn’t have a job or an education. I am good and honorable man, unfortunately that doesn’t count for much in this world. So be it.

September 11, 2006 @ 9:44 am | Comment

i am a white american female. i’ve dated a few chinese men and have a few chinese male friends. i have a japanese bf currently. i am not very feminine. i’m pretty, but i also am very active and have a couple of belts in martial art, have a motorcycle, ride horses, etc.

i don’t find asian men to be intimidated by me or find me “unfeminine”. i don’t find asian men to be more feminine, however they DO, in general, have more refined manners/sensibilities. perhaps you could describe it as more culture? i don’t think this characterizes them as feminine. i find my japanese bf to be just a close to the vest as any western man in terms of sharing his thoughts. a chinese man, however, does not seem as intimidated or repressed about sharing his thoughts. i think that, perhaps, is what causes them to be perceived as effeminate. however it is what i like about them. a chinese man is much easier to connect with, imho, if they are willing to do so.

October 9, 2006 @ 1:06 am | Comment

Don’t underestimate the novelty factor. I am an American, and was recently at a US college. The girls paid all sorts of attention to an African exchange student, who was actually about 5’7″ and not muscular. He was a nice guy, but pretty average looking. Whereas they weren’t paying much attention at all to the American guys, myself included.

I don’t think the guys are China are effeminate, most of them are regular guys, fun to hang out with, play some basketball, have a few beers. Chinese in the USA tend to be more serious, but then again, it’s not their native language or country which makes it harder for them. I’ve lived in China for close to 2 years, and most of the guys I meet are really nice and friendly, it sucks to see them get such a bad, unfair rap.

October 19, 2006 @ 11:39 pm | Comment

I am wondering why more Chinese guys don’t go for Western women. Western women get a bad rap, yes there are a few man-hating feminists, but plenty of nice girls too. One Chinese friend told me he was intimidated, that we wasn’t “man” enough- pretty funny, as he can bench press about 300 lbs.

It would be nice to see the ratio even out somewhat, this will probably happen over time.

October 29, 2006 @ 7:20 pm | Comment