When I find myself in times of trouble, mother Mary comes to me, speaking words of wisdom, let it be.
And in my hour of darkness she is standing right in front of me, speaking words of wisdom, let it be.

Let it be, let it be, let it be, let it be.
Whisper words of wisdom, let it be.

And when the broken hearted people living in the world agree, there will be an answer, let it be.
For though they may be parted there is still a chance that they will see, there will be an answer. let it be.

Let it be, let it be, …..

And when the night is cloudy, there is still a light, that shines on me,shine until tomorrow, let it be.
I wake up to the sound of music, mother Mary comes to me, speaking words of wisdom, let it be.

Let it be, let it be, …..

April 12, 2008 @ 6:22 pm | Comment

The Beatles 1970. Let it be… 😉

April 12, 2008 @ 6:24 pm | Comment

Did you copy and paste or wrote it out of your heart?

April 12, 2008 @ 6:43 pm | Comment

As a question, how much “respect” do the disabled have in China normally?

Only as far as I can see this girl has got attention because she was a victim (and at the hands of a foreigner), not because she has done anything truly “pro-active”. A patronising stereotype being continued?

April 12, 2008 @ 6:44 pm | Comment

Also, on Hong comment about her being the “most beautiful” woman or something – what are the chances he and other able-bodied Chinese men would choose to marry disabled women?

April 12, 2008 @ 6:47 pm | Comment

Careful Raj, a malevolent red star is in a frenzy right now. In response to this from me:

“As someone said earlier, there is a need to remove this woman’s disability from the issue in order to comment objectively.

On a side note, there is significant discrimination against disabled people looking for jobs in China, and a serious shortfall in facilities that would make their lives easier. It is all too easy, therefore, to conclude that the CCP are exploiting this woman’s disability for their own propaganda purposes.”

hongxing responded:

“This is the most sick comment ever, the most sick.

You insult the dignity of the girl, who bravely defended the torch from constant assaults, you probably would have assaulted her as well if you were there.

You have not a single shred of human decency left. Why not say those things to her face, you suck fuck.

I should not have given in to that 10 minutes of pleasure in the Beijing bathroom decades ago, otherwise, you would not be here spewing such vile feces.”

Well, hx, I made a valid point and you resorted to insult – and not for the first time. For the sake of your own health you need to calm down. Your emotions are being manipulated like a dimmer switch and you’re not even aware of it.

Oh yes, and you most definitely owe me an apology. I promise not to hold my breath waiting for it.

Your suggestion that the pro-China contingent outweighed the pro-Tibet crowds during the torch relay is misleading. Many, if not most, were mobilised by the Chinese embassies of the countries involved. And those orders were not given without Beijing’s consent.

It seems the CCP enjoy other countries’ right to free expression when it suits them. How about a few thousand foreign visitors in Beijing expressing their views in the same way? Go down a treat, I’m sure.

Now take a look at Richard’s last paragraph and you’ll see he’s making a similar point to the one I made. If you respond in the same way, I guarantee you’ll be looking for a new place to vent your spleen.

April 12, 2008 @ 7:12 pm | Comment

Careful Raj, a malevolent red star is in a frenzy right now.

stuart, to be quite honest I couldn’t care less. The more Chinese racists beat their chests like gorillas exposes them for what they really are.

As you say CAN be argued, there is exploitation of her disability. She is gaining attention because she is a “poor, helpless victim” – and a woman to boot.

Sadly I doubt that people in China will care more about the disabled because, as I’ve said, this particular one is being characterised as a victim. If in the future she ever tried to use her notoriety to campaign for more rights for the disabled I wouldn’t be surprised if she’d be denounced within due course as being “a pawn of Western imperialistic anti-Chinese racism”, unless she was merely a puppet for the CCP saying how wonderful government policy was.

April 12, 2008 @ 7:22 pm | Comment

richard, I think I’ll make the point I made earlier on the other thread.

The relay has already been a PR disaster for China because it was trying to win over non-Chinese. We already know that Chinese absolutely loved the Olympics and there wasn’t much that could change that. One way or another foreigners would have been blamed for any problems, not the government. Foreign protests wouldn’t have changed their minds.

So that just leaves non-Chinese, who are now more aware of China’s human rights issues than ever before.

April 12, 2008 @ 7:34 pm | Comment

“A beautiful young Chinese woman, bravely ignoring her physical handicap, is shielding the Olympic flame with her body to protect it against Western attackers. ”

What on earth are “Western” attackers? Attackers from the “West”, wherever that place is? Attackers from a “Western” country? Or maybe attackers from the West of China? In any case, the attackers on those photos look Asian to me, they could be Tibetans which, according to CCP speak, makes them Chinese, isn’t it? The “Western” (meaning European or Caucasian?) people I can see in those photos are the French policemen doing their best to protect Jin Jing against the attacks.

April 12, 2008 @ 7:48 pm | Comment

Raj, maybe. Then again, you have also said the “surge” was a success. -)

We’ll see. I was of the same indset last week, and now I’m in wait and see mode. No one knows.

April 12, 2008 @ 8:10 pm | Comment

China and not-China now couldn’t be further apart.

On H-Asia there’s a discussion of the whole Tibet issue, with two Chinese scholars doing the usual, thoughmore muted, propaganda screed, and western scholars struggling to find some non-explosive standpoint to discuss the whole thing.

Michael

April 12, 2008 @ 8:36 pm | Comment

Then again, you have also said the “surge” was a success.

I didn’t realise that the Torch Relay was a military operation. 🙂

If you want to look at matters, you can only do so up until a date. It would be like saying “Communist rule of China has been a success”. Even if you say “yes”, that can only be up until today – you can’t predict what will happen in the future.

Over the next couple of weeks at some point terrorists could blow themsleves up during the Relay and get sympathy for China – and indeed many other people. Or Chinese Police could be caught beating people. Who knows – but I think it’s fair to say the Relay has been a PR disaster so far.

April 12, 2008 @ 8:37 pm | Comment

Try this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jNu3QGKyd-0

April 12, 2008 @ 9:41 pm | Comment

@cc
“Did you copy and paste or wrote it out of your heart?”

I copy and pasted it out of my heart. 😉

It is just dedicated to her, to nothing more and to nothing less.

April 12, 2008 @ 9:47 pm | Comment

it’s fair to say the Relay has been a PR disaster so far.

Apparently, Almaty, St. Petersburg, Istanbul
and Buenos Aires are all Chinese cities.

April 12, 2008 @ 9:59 pm | Comment

Apparently, Almaty, St. Petersburg, Istanbul
and Buenos Aires are all Chinese cities.

Are you saying that the Relay can’t be a PR disaster because it has not yet been through Chinese cities? The Relay is supposed to be an international event. Thus problems on any leg are important.

As an aside, does Hong Kong count as a “Chinese city”? There will certainly be protests there.

April 12, 2008 @ 10:03 pm | Comment

Today, I’m pleased to learn that unlike me, the Western media doesn’t learn.

Western articles continue to unanimously condemn the Chinese media for provoking the resent surge of Chinese nationalism.

Chinese media provokes outrage over pro-Tibet Olympics protests
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/olympics/
article3732204.ece

Well, just imagine the thrill the Chinese must feel rushing through their veins, when they are STILL being told by the media that they are a bunch of brainwashed subhumans whose opinion and protests are not worth being mentioned.

That’ll do the trick in regaining some form of respect from the Chinese population, won’t it?

I, however, am pleased because this may just be the “crack” needed to shatter Western mainstream media’s monopoly of information.

Can you imagine the Western “free” media being known as race-based by the general public? How much credibility will be lost?

That is the scope of challenge to these news manufacturing companies.

April 12, 2008 @ 10:53 pm | Comment

there is a need to remove this woman’s disability from the issue in order to comment objectively.

I guess there is also a need to remove the tank from the famous tank man picutre to comment TAM massacre objectively.

April 12, 2008 @ 11:17 pm | Comment

@ Jinhan

“Western articles continue to unanimously condemn the Chinese media for provoking the resent surge of Chinese nationalism.”

They are right. And your tone provides more evidence. Do you really feel that the Chinese media has not stirred up this hornet’s nest?

April 12, 2008 @ 11:23 pm | Comment

I guess there is also a need to remove the tank from the famous tank man picutre to comment TAM massacre objectively.

CLC, are you for real?

The guy in the picture was squaring off AGAINST a tank.

The girl in the wheelchair IS disabled.

Two completely different things.

———

Today, I’m pleased to learn that unlike me, the Western media doesn’t learn.

Jinhan, so you are suggesting that the Chinese media is NOT increasing Chinese nationalism by its biased, one-sided reporting? You think that cutting out the subtitles when Paula Radcliffe supported the peaceful protestors, such that it would appear to a Chinese reader that she was only complaining about the more violent ones, helps present a balanced view?

The fabrication is mostly happening in China when it comes to reporting, not outside. Next thing we’ll have is footage of Gordon Brown chopped up and put together to explain why he isn’t going to the opening ceremony.

I
am
NOT
going
to the
Beijing 2008 opening ceremony
because
I am
SCARED
by the
POSSIBILITY
of
Tibetan
TERRORISTS
killing
me

April 12, 2008 @ 11:35 pm | Comment

What’s most disturbing about this for me is how so many Chinese people can’t get over their so-called “victimization”. It’s awful if a Chinese woman gets a torch snatched from her, but it’s OK to threaten Taiwan with missiles just because they want to choose their own identity, it’s OK to claim Tibet because it was “always part of China,” never mind considering if the Tibetans ever wanted to be part of China, and it’s OK to do the same to Uighurs. Who cares how many people you beat and kill, how many other cultures you deface, it’s all for the sake of reversing national shame- and God knows when it’ll finally be reversed.
Jinhan, Western media will start being wrong about brainwashing when Chinese people start doubting what they learned in school about what gives a country a right to a piece of territory and whether or not China was and is always a victim. They’ll be wrong when people in China can accept criticism without calling the critic a racist or ignorant. They’ll be wrong when they stop talking about the Western media, which covers dozens of countries and political viewpoints, as though it were one.
I don’t think you even know what brainwashing is. Only since moving to Taiwan, where people don’t feel the need to tell foreigners how their country was oppressed 100 years ago, and people have a surprisingly wide range of views, did I realize how pernicious it was in China. You may think you’re a dissident, but as long as you think China is somehow being threatened by the West, and think that Tibet and Taiwan are necessary for China’s survival, so far as I can tell you might as well be working for the CCP. The CCP knows that as long as people fear and hate foreigners, no matter how much they detest the CCP, they’ll keep supporting it as the lesser of two evils. I’m sure the CCP would be thrilled by what you’re doing here.

April 12, 2008 @ 11:48 pm | Comment

sigh.. it’s the same spiel every time. Taiwan, Tibet, Turkestan! Taiwan, Tibet, Turkestan! Taiwan, Tibet, Turkestan!

It’s really not about Taiwan “choosing their own identity”. They want economic integration with Taiwan, and they don’t want Taiwan to be another link in the China containment squad. That’s all. They’re happy about the various Nationalist victories, and all the race-baiting, Hoklo supremacist thugs of the DPP are crying themselves to sleep.

Sure, Tibet didn’t want to be part of China but it got invaded repeatedly just as Sichuan, Yunnan, and even Beijing were invaded by Tibet. But China wants Tibet’s natural resources, and control of its rivers and borders so they’re not letting go.

Lastly, the Uighur are not native to Xinjiang. They are the descendants of Xiongnu (who were 89% “Mongolic”) and various Central Asian tribes. The original people in Xinjiang were probably first the Tibetan-Northern Han peoples (as they were moving to the Kunlun mountains) and then the Tocharians.

Who cares how many people you beat and kill, how many other cultures you deface

Gotta get politicians and news corporations to stop feeding them. Yes yes, the CCP takes much of the blame but nothing short of an invasion or domestic protests is going to stop their censorship.

China is somehow being threatened by the West

haha you don’t see how America could have a problem with someone competing for political power and resources..?

April 13, 2008 @ 12:04 am | Comment

They are right. And your tone provides more evidence. Do you really feel that the Chinese media has not stirred up this hornet’s nest?

and do you really feel that various politicians and news corporations aren’t stirring it as well?

oh, but we’re always right! it’s never our fault! you’re just brainwashed!

sounds just like the CCP.

April 13, 2008 @ 12:07 am | Comment

hey, nihao
I find ur nice weblog and indexed it into my website to make more people know it
http://www.heynihao.com/sortedbysort.php?s=10&np=4&sort_name=Blog&cat_id=3

April 13, 2008 @ 12:15 am | Comment

Lastly, the Uighur are not native to Xinjiang.

Well, Turkic speaking peoples have been living there for at least a millenia or so, if that matters to you. You could put it this way: Uighur have lived in East Turkestan much longer than Han Chinese have been the majority in Taiwan.

April 13, 2008 @ 12:18 am | Comment

[i]They are right. And your tone provides more evidence. Do you really feel that the Chinese media has not stirred up this hornet’s nest?[/i]

My brainwashed Chinese tone, you mean?

The Western media did *much more* to agitate Chinese nationalism than the Chinese media with their false, biased, and prejudiced reporting. Why you fail to see that is beyond me.

Nationalist sites such as anti-CNN.com and nationalist protests were spontaneous and created by overseas Chinese in response to the ridiculous amount of prejudice and mal-reporting in the media.

Even if the masses within China are brainwashed goons of the CCP, the Western media still cannot explain the overwhelming anger from the overseas Chinese population, young and old men and women who are by no means remote-controlled by the CCP. Perhaps that’s why they decided not to report it at all.

Also, I saw the pictures on Jin Jing on public forums–When it was already gaining popularity–before they appeared in official media, which isn’t know for speedy reporting.

[i]You think that cutting out the subtitles when Paula Radcliffe supported the peaceful protestors, such that it would appear to a Chinese reader that she was only complaining about the more violent ones, helps present a balanced view?[/i]

Quote me on where I supposedly said Chinese media was fair or *stop* putting words in my mouth.

The Chinese official media does not have a monopoly over information and is by no means the dominant means of information exchange.

News medias were never meant to be balanced…If you think they were then you are delusional. What’s outrageous is that the Western media actually claims to be fair and balanced. It is neither. It is the engine of propaganda.

April 13, 2008 @ 12:21 am | Comment

Are you saying that the Relay can’t be a PR disaster because it has not yet been through Chinese cities?

I am saying you need to look beyond London and Paris to get the whole picture. Non-Chinese are not a monolithic group.

Two completely different things.

There are no two things are the same. The power of the tankman picture is a guy against a TANK. The power of the picture we discuss is that a DISABLED woman was attacked and she retained her grace. Try to remove those capitalized words and see what you get.

April 13, 2008 @ 12:23 am | Comment

That is why the head of China’s department of Propaganda should send a personal thank you letter to CNN,BBC, and most of all the Free Tibet movement. You guys gave them a free gift, absolutely a fantastic gift.

On a different note, in the last three cities: London, Paris, San Francisco where the torch relay took place. The amount of Chinese immigrants/students who showed up to support the relay and oppose the protests were absolutely overwhelming. In each city, the pro Olympic supporters way way outnumbered the Free Tibet crowd.

They are all just regular Chinese residents, some on student visas, some are Green card holders, some are American citizens. Some came to the US for less than a year, others have been here for more than 15 years. There are men, women, parents, teachers, professors, engineers, and even grandparents. I personally know many families who spent many weekends going door to door to distribute flyers, either supporting the Olympics or countering many Free Tibet group’s talking points. I know a Chinese mother in SF, with 2 children, who took a week off work to design posters, organize “strategy meetings” with her local friends for the rally on the day of the torch relay, etc.

The last time there was such an overwhelming amount of energy displayed in the the overseas Chinese community was, ironically, in 1989, against the Chinese gov’t.

I think even the Western press was genuinely surprised by the resistance generated by the Chinese community across Europe and America over this issue. Usually, Chinese living overseas are often split on many issues, and are usually pretty sheepish and lethargic. But there are these “bottom line” issues that absolutely they will not budge, and if you push,you will bel pushed back, as you have seen in London, in Paris, in SF, and will continue.

In this society, you need to speak up to have your opinion and voices heard. No one will hand you a free microphone, no one will voluntarily come and listen to you. You need to protest, march, fight, otherwise you’ll always been seen as a Chinese sheep, and the Tibetan movements and activists know about this and wants to take advantage of this. Well this time, to be honest, even myself was surprised by the unity and energy and resistance displayed in Chinese communities across the world. The message is simple, “we won’t take it anymore”.

I think after this series of events are over, the Chinese overseas community will emerge more united, more purposeful, and more strenghthened. And there’ll be some organization established to speak up for us, maybe some lobbying group also.

April 13, 2008 @ 12:27 am | Comment

JB and Stuart, I couldn’t agree more. To dispute the claim that the Chinese media is manipulating its people in this case, while clearly suffering from selective outrage (it’s ok to kill our people for “stability,” but never ever touch the f—ing torch!), is clearly a problem. I’m just waiting to see when “the Japanese” will get dragged into it.
Also, Ferin makes repeated references to the “Struggle for resources.” He also frequently snidely recommends that I read up on history (without of course, being any more specific. However, if I remember my modern history correctly, the last time that a country in Asia, namely Japan, set up Asian in opposition to the “West” and claimed to be in a “struggle for resources” with this “West,” it really didn’t end very well. I’m sure Ferin angrily denounces Japanese imperialism, yet takes a so-called “realist” approach to Chinese imperialism. And that brings us back to selective outrage, doesn’t it?

April 13, 2008 @ 12:49 am | Comment

All in all, an Oscar worthy performance.

April 13, 2008 @ 12:57 am | Comment

Well said, Kevin. And Stuart, Red Star’s insults at you in the earlier thread are totally repellent and unacceptable. I can’t always read every comment. Please email me when something that obscene is said here.

Jinhan you are wrong about nearly everything you say. If you look at coverage in the Western media you will find plenty of columns and articles that explain the Chinese point of view. Some of them, in major media like the NY Times, have been outspoken in their criticism of the Dalai Lama and have noted the West’s romanticization of Tibet. It’s there, if you want to see it. But then, if you acknowledged it, your bubble would burst. Because your entire belief system is based on the false premise that Western media are “anti-China” and that Americans are as brainwashed as the Chinese. (Actually I think the Chinese are less brainwashed than a lot of us believe, but in America the level of “brainwashing” doesn’t even come close. We are exposed to all kinds of media here and different viewpoints in a way the Chinese system could never tolerate.)

April 13, 2008 @ 1:09 am | Comment

Well, Turkic speaking peoples have been living there for at least a millenia or so, if that matters to you. You could put it this way: Uighur have lived in East Turkestan much longer than Han Chinese have been the majority in Taiwan.

Doesn’t matter. The Han Chinese were there before the modern Uighur, and before them the Tocharians, and before the Tocharians the Tibetans and Han Chinese. There has been a Chinese/Mongolian presence there for millenia as well.

There’s lots and lots of room in their homeland in Central Asia and Southern Siberia if a couple of them think they’re too good to live with Chinamen and kafirs.

April 13, 2008 @ 1:10 am | Comment

@Jinhan

“Today, I’m pleased to learn that unlike me, the Western media doesn’t learn.”

I’m not sure, if this is just an ordinary grammar mistake. I guess, Jinhan really thinks of “the Western media” as one single entity, some sort of monster, maybe like Godzilla.

“Western articles continue to unanimously condemn the Chinese media for provoking the resent surge of Chinese nationalism.”

Even if this was true (of course, it’s not), you would have to spend a lot of time online, reading newspapers etc. to be able to back up your allegation.

“Well, just imagine the thrill the Chinese must feel rushing through their veins, when they are STILL being told by the media that they are a bunch of brainwashed subhumans whose opinion and protests are not worth being mentioned.”

Which media are you talking about? It’s the media controlled by the CCP that treat the Chinese people like idiots without human rights whose opinions and protests are not worth being mentioned.

“I, however, am pleased because this may just be the ‘crack’ needed to shatter Western mainstream media’s monopoly of information.”

Again, which media are you talking about? The only media that have a monopoly on information are those government-controlled media in authoritarian states like the People’s Republic of China.

“Can you imagine the Western “free” media being known as race-based by the general public? How much credibility will be lost?”

What the hell is “race-based”? You just lost whatever credibility you ever had, that’s for sure.

April 13, 2008 @ 1:12 am | Comment

I think the lasting long-term effects of these events shouldn’t be overestimated. Public opinion is the most fickle of beasts.

Remember how the American people rallied around the Bush administration with 9/11 and the invasion of Iraq? Remember all that talk of a permanent, unstoppable Republican Majority?

Yeah, we all know where that has ended up. Barely 5 years later.

I feel really bad for Jin Jing- she was assaulted, and that’s not right. Freedom from harm is her right just as much of freedom of expression is the right of those who want to hold a Tibetan flag on the torch route (but NOT physically accost people). But we are talking about an Olympic torch, not world peace.

And can we all really be serious to believe that somehow 1.3 billion (1.3 BILLION!) people all move in a singular thought wave? I think that is buying into some serious stereotypes about China. I’m sure you could still find quite a few in that mass of humanity that think the Games are a waste of time and money, but still love their country (or maybe don’t, who knows).

My dream for this summer is that somehow, in some way, the sports competition is good enough that all this nonsense is forgotten and people just have fun. Of course, this depends on a) no major disruptions and b) the CCP, by some complete miracle, managing to minimize the political masturbation.

April 13, 2008 @ 1:14 am | Comment

the last time that a country in Asia, namely Japan, set up Asian in opposition to the “West” and claimed to be in a “struggle for resources”

Terrible argument. How do you think it came to be that America is so much richer than all the nations it invaded? Because they’re stupid and you’re smart? Because you’re somehow special?

I’m sure Ferin angrily denounces Japanese imperialism

Uh, I recognize the IJAs acts were evil. Not so much just because they took away China’s sovereignty, but because they tortured random people, killed millions, forced people into slavery, executed POWs, persuaded Okinawans to commit mass suicide, assassinate Japanese liberals, etc. Do you see China selectively “racially cleansing” itself? That would be a joke, considering 50-80% of the “Han Chinese” demographic is heavily mixed.

yet takes a so-called “realist” approach to Chinese imperialism. And that brings us back to selective outrage, doesn’t it?

Oh that’s right! Selective outrage, like being outraged at the colonization of Tibet but not outraged at the colonization of Priamurye and Sakhalin!

Can’t forget, European peoples are special and deserve their colonies.

April 13, 2008 @ 1:17 am | Comment

“If you look at coverage in the Western media you will find plenty of columns and articles that explain the Chinese point of view.”

Richard, could you quantify your “plenty”? Can you tell us what is the “not too plenty” coverage of the non-Chinese point of view, can you quantify that as well?

May I ask, if the coverage in the western media has been so balanced as you are suggesting, how come many people in the west still believe that there was a brutal crackdown on 14th of March 2008 in Lhasa? How come many people in the west still believe the 1.2million lie and the “cultural genocide” accusation, both out of a holy mouth?

April 13, 2008 @ 1:20 am | Comment

“if you acknowledged it, your bubble would burst. Because your entire belief system is based on the false premise that Western media are “anti-China” and that Americans are as brainwashed as the Chinese. (Actually I think the Chinese are less brainwashed than a lot of us believe, but in America the level of “brainwashing” doesn’t even come close. We are exposed to all kinds of media here and different viewpoints in a way the Chinese system could never tolerate.)”

Richard, that last part in brackets shows me how high your chest was up when you were writing it.

You better watch your won bubble bursting instead of worrying about others’

April 13, 2008 @ 1:26 am | Comment

cc, many Americans believe 911 was a conspiracy initiated by the US government. This idiotic misconception has nothing to do with what was reported in the media. The point being: You cannot blame all misconceptions on the media. Part of the answer to your question is the superb messaging, coordination and PR savvy of the Free Tibet movement and its ilk. They are damned good.

I have seen some pundits and bloggers parrot some incredibly stupid misconceptions about Tibet, and I have seen others speaking out very intelligently on the need for historical perspective and distance from romanticized notions of Tibet. It’s all there. If more people flock to the romanticized point of view, that is not necessariiy an indictment of the Western media. There are many factors at play here, starting with Hilton’s novel Paradise Lost.

April 13, 2008 @ 1:31 am | Comment

I don’t think the Free Tibet movement is particularly good. It’s just that Hollywood stars are pretty dumb.

April 13, 2008 @ 1:37 am | Comment

@Native Whatever Ferin

“It’s really not about Taiwan ‘choosing their own identity’. They want economic integration with Taiwan, and they don’t want Taiwan to be another link in the China containment squad. That’s all.”

So that’s why the PRC is pointing all those missiles at Taiwan. Good to know! Turkey, Croatia and whoever is looking at economic integration with the EU, you know what to do. The CCP has shown the way.

“Sure, Tibet didn’t want to be part of China but it got invaded repeatedly just as Sichuan, Yunnan, and even Beijing were invaded by Tibet. But China wants Tibet’s natural resources, and control of its rivers and borders so they’re not letting go.”

And that’s why people who carry photos of the DL have to be imprisoned and nuns who try to leave TAR have to be shot. Good point, Ferin!

“Gotta get politicians and news corporations to stop feeding them. Yes yes, the CCP takes much of the blame but nothing short of an invasion or domestic protests is going to stop their censorship.”

There have been lots of domestic protests in the People’s Republic of China, but that didn’t stop censorship either.

“and do you really feel that various politicians and news corporations aren’t stirring it as well?”

You mean Wen Jiabao and Xinhua? Yes, certainly.

“oh, but we’re always right! it’s never our fault! you’re just brainwashed!”

That’s pretty much your attitude since I’ve started reading comments on the Peking Duck. Just replace “brainwashed” with any swear word you like.

“sounds just like the CCP.”

Well, you have to know.

April 13, 2008 @ 1:44 am | Comment

So that’s why the PRC is pointing all those missiles at Taiwan

America has 1,000 nuclear ICBMs pointed at China, what’s your point? What doesn’t compute for you here? They don’t want Taiwan to separate economically. The missiles underscore that line. It’s just symbolic, they could fire missiles at Taiwan whenever they wanted and Taiwan could do the same back.

And that’s why people who carry photos of the DL have to be imprisoned and nuns who try to leave TAR have to be shot. Good point, Ferin!

Good straw man mor, you’re very good at making those! Have a cookie.

There have been lots of domestic protests in the People’s Republic of China, but that didn’t stop censorship either.

So you’re leading the invasion then? Let me guess, you think your garbage posts on the internet are helping China more than they can help themselves? What an arrogant, paternalistic prick!

Just replace “brainwashed” with any swear word you like.

Calm down. Have your wife change your diaper or something.

April 13, 2008 @ 1:50 am | Comment

Ferin, I don’t see how that fact that “people who carry photos of the DL have to be imprisoned and nuns who try to leave TAR have to be shot” could be a straw man? What do you mean by that?

April 13, 2008 @ 2:02 am | Comment

Jin Jing was a plant by the Chinese gov’t. They used diplomatic pressure to get her in the French torch run hoping someone would try and grab the torch from her. Too bad they were right.

But the protesters never laid a hand on her, only the torch. I guess Xinhua missed that detail.

“The last time there was such an overwhelming amount of energy displayed in the the overseas Chinese community was, ironically, in 1989, against the Chinese gov’t.”

Those were baby boomers that fled China before and after the CR.

Turkic peoples, whether they were Uyghur or otherwise in name, were in E. Turkestan and even in what is now central China long before any Han, and Beijing sponsored archaeological digs confirmed that. But Beijing was hoping to prove otherwise.

China sucks, the world should have left this country in its tomb.

April 13, 2008 @ 2:05 am | Comment

Nanhe, I am willing to believe you – if you offer even the slenderest scintilla of evidence. Until you do, I have to say I think your claim is pure horseshit. The CCP is not nearly smart enough to choreograph something like this, let alone to do it perfectly.

April 13, 2008 @ 2:17 am | Comment

“If you look at coverage in the Western media you will find plenty of columns and articles that explain the Chinese point of view.”

By plenty you mean four or five…versus some 2,000 others.

And those that do “explain” the other point of view basically tries to refute it in the same article.

Many Chinese protesters complain about the unfair treatment and intentional marginalization in the media or in the process of reporting.

“Actually I think the Chinese are less brainwashed than a lot of us believe, but in America the level of “brainwashing” doesn’t even come close. We are exposed to all kinds of media here and different viewpoints in a way the Chinese system could never tolerate.”

That’s because some people are too brainwashed to realize how brainwashed they are.

Have you ever heard someone admitting that they are brainwashed?

The Chinese official media, like their Western counter parts, definitely does not permit different view points. But unlike Western media, it does not claim to be impartial and does not have the same kind of monopoly over information on a world-wide scale.

That’s what’s dangerous about the western new-manufacturing agencies.

Now, if you could succeed where Western media have failed and explain why the mass majority of the overseas Chinese respond similarly with those within China, that’d help a lot.

Of course, you can go right ahead and call them brainwashed too. That’ll terminate the discussion immediately: since they are brainwashed, whatever they say is of no value. And since most of not all Chinese are brainwashed, there is no debate.

That’s the overwhelmingly media’s message, so far…And a lot of people here have push that argument, though not with the same wording. In the West, it’s quite acceptable to be racist…You just have to find the acceptable words and phrases.

But you can just guess the possible outcomes of that line of arguing, looking at recent anti-media protests.

For me though, it is quite clear that the Chinese would have behaved the same way if everyone of them could read English and had access to CNN.

Defending and sugar-coating a racist riot simply isn’t supposed to bring a lot of support.

April 13, 2008 @ 2:23 am | Comment

On a somewhat related note, check out the buzz on a new style of Chinese-foreign relations:

http://tinyurl.com/3teuaa

Interesting guy, this Mr. Rudd.

April 13, 2008 @ 2:24 am | Comment

“””””Today, I’m pleased to learn that unlike me, the Western media doesn’t learn.”””””

Dear Jinhan, gloating and taking pleasure at others’ faults in the same sentence…I just do not understand why you WANT other people to do wrong. Can you explain? It sounds like you have serious heart problems.

If they learned, wouldnt that be best for everyone in principle?

“”””””Well, just imagine the thrill the Chinese must feel rushing through their veins, when they are STILL being told by the media that they are a bunch of brainwashed subhumans whose opinion and protests are not worth being mentioned.”””””””

Dude, try looking at it from their point of view. Can you not understand why some westerners think Chinese people’s opinions are invalid? You people live under an authoritarian dictatorship that has been so successful at brainwashing that you people actually LIKE it and do not SEE it at all. You people actually think that you are not brainwashed!! Thats how brainwashed you are. Specially the younger generations who have been brought up entirely on lies and who have not experienced the CCPs blantant acts of evil. If the Chinese were allowed to freely discuss the CCP issues, the opinions of Chinese poeple would not be similar to now, they would closer resemble the true situation, of course. I mean who wouldnt think moodern Chinese CCPers are crazy? Look at the bloddbath history, killing so many intelligent and innocent Chinese, and now people are following them like nothing ever happened!!! It’s sci fi, its nuts!

I am not blaming the brainwashed people. The CCP is responsible for this horrible crime against human thought and truthfulness.

Please forgive the huge over generalizing, it is only to make a point. There is a great population of able minded Chinese and in varying degress an even bigger number, I am just making a point about brainwashing., and the awkwardness between the brainwashed people who have no ability to discuss openly, and the western perception of authoritairanism…

April 13, 2008 @ 2:31 am | Comment

Here are two disabled people that the Chinese are not allowed to see in their own media, and are not allowed to be sympathetic towards:
http://tinyurl.com/5og43c
http://tinyurl.com/652ocf

Until these, and many others, crippled by tanks and guns of their own “people’s army,” are able to see justice, any “sympathy” shown for Jin Jing is nothing but a politicized joke!

April 13, 2008 @ 2:44 am | Comment

@Jinhan

“My brainwashed Chinese tone, you mean?”

No your agitated nationalist tone.

“The Western media did *much more* to agitate Chinese nationalism than the Chinese media with their false, biased, and prejudiced reporting. Why you fail to see that is beyond me.”

I also fail to see it. And it’s totally beyond me how anybody who’s intelligent enough to learn English can make such a stupid allegation.

“Nationalist sites such as anti-CNN.com and nationalist protests were spontaneous and created by overseas Chinese in response to the ridiculous amount of prejudice and mal-reporting in the media.”

What’s really ridiculous are websites like anti-CNN.com.

“Even if the masses within China are brainwashed goons of the CCP, the Western media still cannot explain the overwhelming anger from the overseas Chinese population, young and old men and women who are by no means remote-controlled by the CCP. Perhaps that’s why they decided not to report it at all.”

Maybe the anger was not that overwhelming after all. In spite of all the “overwhelming anger” most overseas Chinese still choose to stay in those countries where they enjoy certain civil rights (like freedom of speech) rather than return to the glorious worker’s paradise PRC. Aren’t you living in Canada? For a good reason, I guess?

“Also, I saw the pictures on Jin Jing on public forums–When it was already gaining popularity–before they appeared in official media, which isn’t know for speedy reporting.”

Damn, those amateur mobile phone photographers were faster than those journalists of the big newspapers with editors and all that. I suggest you do a few internships in “official media” and you’ll know how it works.

“Quote me on where I supposedly said Chinese media was fair or *stop* putting words in my mouth.”

You did say that Western media are worse than Chinese media (see quote above).

“The Chinese official media does not have a monopoly over information and is by no means the dominant means of information exchange.”

So what is the “dominant means of information exchange”? I mean considering that a lot of Chinese people spend a lot of their free time in front of the television and get most of their information from there?

“News medias were never meant to be balanced…If you think they were then you are delusional.”

Yes, they were. If they really are, that’s another question.

“What’s outrageous is that the Western media actually claims to be fair and balanced.”

PRC media actually claim exactly this.

“It is neither. It is the engine of propaganda.”

And again, the same mistake. Jinhan, media is a plural (!) word, and for a good reason!

April 13, 2008 @ 2:45 am | Comment

Hey, yu no, I also wanted to mention this ANNOYING thing thats been phenominizing around lately.

M’k, it goes like this:::

Because you criticize “China”, you are helping the CCP gain popularity.

The western media is helping to unite the Chinese people….(against the west)

How weak. I am not responsible for the zonbification of Chinese people, so do not blame me if the zombies get up and march about.

I do not say the western media is a pure blameless player in this game, but just because they pushed a button that released the latent idiocy of a heap of senseless goons, does NOT mean that they turned those human beings into goons.

Who deprives Chinese poeople of the right to know the truth about history and to discuss their own (formerly) magnifiscent land? Who indoctrinates the Chinese with a volitile religion specifically designed to protect a bloodthirsty political party?

I would like to add a request on top of my other repeated (and often ignored) request ( Stop saying I am anti China!!!, I’m not, I love China and think the CCP is damaging China)

The other request is, stop telling me my opinion of the CCP is helping the CCP. That is some stupid idea that is trying to get me to say good things about the CCP to make zombies happy. Why would I want to make zombies happy? Complimenting the CCP is not going to turn zombies into humans, its just gonna make pacified zombies, which has to hit the fan one of these days…

The better point is how to turn zombies into humans, free flow of information.

DOWN WITH THE CCP PROPAGANDA REGIME

SET THEM FREE

NO MORE FIREWALLL FOR CHINESE

LET THEM SPEAK

NO MORE TORTURE AND THREATS UPON TRUTH

LET TRUE, GOOD CHINESE DECIDE

LET THE TRUE CHINESE HAVE THEIR OLYMPICS

NO MORE LYING

NO MORE MANIPULATING HATE CRIMES

April 13, 2008 @ 2:48 am | Comment

Jin Jing is essentially just a propaganda tool for the Chinese government. If she was expressing a viewpoint different from the official line, they wouldn’t hesitate to run her over with a tank:

From Amnesty International:
China: Justice Denied For Those Disabled In 1989 Tiananmen Crackdown

On the 17th anniversary of the crackdown, AI is highlighting the plight of Qi Zhiyong (left) and those who were disabled as a result of the events of 4 June 1989.

Seventeen years on, the legacy of the 1989 crackdown on the pro-democracy movement lives on for the victims and their families. It is not an issue of the past, but a tragedy which continues to impact on their lives today.

Most attention on the victims and survivors has focused on those imprisoned or killed. On the 17th anniversary of the crackdown, Amnesty International is highlighting the plight of those who were disabled as a result of the events of 4 June 1989.

Their disabilities impact on a whole range of their human rights, including the right to work, the right to livelihood and the right to health. However, the failure of the authorities to change their official stance towards the incident and deliver justice for the victims has left them with no channels for obtaining compensation or redress.

In an interview with Amnesty International, Chinese activist, Qi Zhiyong explained how he was shot in the lower part of his leg on the night of 4 June 1989. He said he was taken to hospital after three hours, but by that time the wound had become infected and the doctor had to amputate his leg to save his life.

At that time, Qi Zhiyong was working for a construction company which provided basic health care for its employees in line with China’s ‘cradle-to-grave’ social welfare policies – a system which has since been dismantled as a result of economic reform.

“My work unit was really nice to me,” Qi said. ‘They offered me a one-off sum of compensation of 100,000 Yuan, but only if I would agree to say that my disability was the result of a work accident.’ He refused the payment on principle.

Since then, Qi Zhiyong has refused to stay silent about 1989. He has done several media interviews to draw attention to those who were killed in the crackdown and their families. He finds it easier to talk about them than to talk about himself. “You know there are many people in China, my small life is not so important,” he says.

Qi Zhiyong faces an uphill struggle in his fight for justice. He remains under tight police surveillance and has been detained several times for his campaigning activities, particularly around the anniversary of June 4. He was arbitrarily detained by the police for over seven weeks earlier this year after he participated in a public hunger-strike protest in support of other Chinese activists.

Qi had to give up his job with the construction company as a result of his disability. He found it hard to find new employment, and opened a small snack and cigarette shop to eke out a living. However, he says he was forced to move his shop several times due to large-scale construction related to the Beijing Olympics. Following his participation in the hunger-strike protest this year, the authorities revoked his trading licence and Qi’s wife was also dismissed from her job apparently as a result of his campaigning activities. With an eight-year old daughter to support and faced with high medical bills to treat the lingering effects of his injury, Qi Zhiyong and his wife find it hard to make ends meet.

A few years ago he applied for an unemployment allowance from the Beijing Department of Civil Affairs, but he says they turned him down. “An official laughed at me and accused me of betraying my country by criticizing the Chinese government in the western media. They said that surely I must already have received money from the west.”

However, Qi Zhiyong does not regret participating in the 1989 protests or dwell on his disability. In fact he says he feel ‘reborn’ after the crackdown: “I am 50 years old this year, but I feel like 17, since my ‘real’ birthday was on 4 June 1989!” he laughs.

Others have been left with severe mental disabilities as a result of torture or ill-treatment in prison following the crackdown. Yu Dongyue was freed from prison in February 2006 after serving 16 years in prison for throwing paint at the portrait of Mao Zedong in Tiananmen Square in June 1989. He was left with serious mental impairment after being subjected to torture and ill-treatment in prison, including being tied to a pole and left in the sun for several days, periodic beatings and at least two years’ solitary confinement.

At the time of his release, Yu Dongyue showed signs of having suffered a complete mental collapse – he was unable to recognize life-long friends or family members and kept repeating words over and over. A psychiatrist recommended medical treatment. However, the authorities have given him no financial assistance following his release and his family cannot afford to pay.

The legacy of 1989 lives on for these and other victims of the crackdown and their families. The authorities, however, continue to reject calls for an independent investigation into the crackdown with a view to bringing the perpetrators to justice and providing compensation for the victims.

April 13, 2008 @ 2:52 am | Comment

@CLC

“I am saying you need to look beyond London and Paris to get the whole picture. Non-Chinese are not a monolithic group.”

You say? I thought we were all residents of that big place called the “West”.

“There are no two things are the same. The power of the tankman picture is a guy against a TANK. The power of the picture we discuss is that a DISABLED woman was attacked and she retained her grace. Try to remove those capitalized words and see what you get.”

I tried it. If you remove those capitalized words, the first sentence is incomplete. I still can’t get what your point is.

April 13, 2008 @ 3:01 am | Comment

One more thing, someone mentionned that spontaneous nationalistic drippery over poor Jin Jing was occuring without the CCP spurring.

Hey,uh, lets not forget that, if they need to be spurred at every turn, they would not actually be brainwashed. The Chinese people know the party line extrmemly well, they know when to say yay, when to say neh and when to shut the hell up for their lives! They have enough experience and learning to have figured that all out.

Following the party line is a very common religion in China. If you defy it, you wont go to hell (quite the opposite), but following it will keep you out of the gulag, until the party decides it doesnt like your mother, is jealous of your popularity, wants your vital organs or your land, so on.

Another explanation would be:

Some people in China have no idea whats going on with Tibet, China and the world, they just see that someone tried to grab the torch from a Chinese, so sympathy with the nation -within that context- is totally understandable. Under regular circumstances I would really sympathize with the Chinese concerning this torch stuff…. But, I also think some Tibetans chose to do rather extrme acts because thats the only way they get noticed. The stupid media do not care the reall issues, they come like flies on poop when there is violence or negative excitement… That is why they ignore Falun Gong, cause they do not care at all, they only care about entertaining themsleves with kooky acts, they dont respect their own professional domain in the least. Falun Gong people dont stir up any violence, so the media just ignores the issue. It is quite terrible. huh.

April 13, 2008 @ 3:04 am | Comment

@nanhe
“Jin Jing was a plant by the Chinese gov’t. They used diplomatic pressure to get her in the French torch run hoping someone would try and grab the torch from her. Too bad they were right.”

I do not think so. It looks rather like one of those unexpected events that not even the most detailed planning and scheming could have foresee.

What end result we get out of it is at his moment
hard to see.

At least one positive effect can be now readily identified, a greater awareness from handicapped people like her in CH. Hope it will extend to others handicapped people too, specially in rural areas were maybe all traditions/customs run strong.

About the injured feelings of CH nationals I hope the big majority of them are not taken away by an over emotional nationalism. Soon they will receive quite a big number of guest, some of them will not agree with many of CH opinions, some opinions they will find , right or wrong, even disgusting.

Well… it will be a great time to show that you are not so brainwashed as some people think. In the same way CH demand the “west” to see their view, CH should be able to do the effort to see the other’s view, even if that means some…internal struggling

Right now it looks to me that its going to be a hard task hosting the games, hope you are up to it.

As an aside… I am checking my “westish” local media and foreign news outlets I use to read. Do not see so far any coverage about the jin jing “affair” and its impact inside CH. Yep… the quality of “our” news coverage in CH need some improvements, their are missing a great story.

April 13, 2008 @ 3:19 am | Comment

“Dear Jinhan, gloating and taking pleasure at others’ faults in the same sentence…I just do not understand why you WANT other people to do wrong. Can you explain? It sounds like you have serious heart problems.”

Well, I AM a communist agitator, and the myth of a “fair media” excuses people from free-thinking and bugs the hell out of me.

I want to *totally shatter* the dominant status of mainstream media and force people to dig deeper on everything in life, instead of just taking the SHIT spoon-fed to them by CNN.

“You people live under an authoritarian dictatorship that has been so successful at brainwashing that you people actually LIKE it and do not SEE it at all.”

And you think you don’t? Well, see, that’s the problem.

I can say that I do so sincerely believe that you and everyone else here is brainwashed…Certainly much more brainwashed than I am.

And believe me, I’m VERY often tempted to blurt that out, but I try hard to refrain from doing that because it doesn’t help. It sounds condescending and bluntly put, cuntish. We’ll end up calling each other brainwashed and nothing good will come out of it.

If you truly believe that most Chinese people are brainwashed beyond saving, then there’s no point coming here except to vent out your frustrations against the brainwashed Chinese zombies–And I suspect some do come here for precisely that purpose.

The logical problem with the “brainwashed” argument is, you can label anyone brainwashed just because he agrees even a little with the government’s stance–Or in my case, just for being Chinese.

“I am not blaming the brainwashed people. The CCP is responsible for this horrible crime against human thought and truthfulness.”

I’m sure the brainwashed peoples of China would thank you for your generous and charitable offer of forgiveness.

“No your agitated nationalist tone.”

Yeah, everyone who disagrees with you is a nationalist.

“I also fail to see it. And it’s totally beyond me how anybody who’s intelligent enough to learn English can make such a stupid allegation.”

I argued that the nationalist movement is a spontaneous response by overseas Chinese exposed to Western media against the Western media and not agitated by the Chinese media.

And your argument is…”You’re stupid”.

“Chinese still choose to stay in those countries where they enjoy certain civil rights (like freedom of speech) rather than return to the glorious worker’s paradise PRC. Aren’t you living in Canada? For a good reason, I guess?”

–Yeah, if you don’t like China, get the fuck out!

It’s a fucking shame I had to waste 10 seconds replying to this kind of shitty argument.

April 13, 2008 @ 3:28 am | Comment

Yeah, if you don’t like China, get the fuck out!

So you got the fuck out, did you? Or, if you were raised outside of China, did you decide to stay the fuck out when you turned 18?

Either way, how come you live outside China? Because you choose to and life is better there.

April 13, 2008 @ 3:31 am | Comment

“Either way, how come you live outside China? Because you choose to and life is better there.”

That’s debatable, at least in my case,

Plus, you yourself are not exactly holed up in India (or wherever you came from), are you?

April 13, 2008 @ 3:44 am | Comment

Found some!

http://tinyurl.com/6ksyfq

Interesting

April 13, 2008 @ 4:02 am | Comment

I really like the photo of both jin jiang and TB woman.

Two sides of the same story. So close and so far apart at the same time… or maybe not so far apart.

Time for some wisdom, don’t you think? 😉

April 13, 2008 @ 4:14 am | Comment

About the boycott to OG cannot find better opinion than this. After reading it I was forced myself to make some adjustments in my position about a boykott

“my friends in the team asked my opinion about whether it is right to boycotting Beijing Olympic. I said “No. Please don’t do it and it is very dangerous. Olympics is like the Wedding Ceremony of PEOPLE in China, not the government. Imagine your reaction if someone try to ruin YOUR wedding, instead of your governor’s wedding?”
Now the wedding of 1.3 billion people started to be ruined. Its not the government official who are not happy, it is everyone in the country who feel being hurt. Please understand the difference, and think about what is going to happen.”

Hhhmm…It is going to take a good deal of “finesse” for “West” politicians to find the right way to express their disagreement with CCP policies but not hurting at the same time CH people feelings.

From the same blog I pulled this comment in relation to the bearing of the torch in Argentina
“I’ve found this as well– South Americans, Spaniards and Italians are remarkably hospitable people to outsiders. Much like the Chinese, for that matter.”

He he he. I must recognize I am flattered 🙂
Yes, we grade a civilization according to their hospitality, no matter how ancient or advanced it is. Lets see what grades can we grant to CH this summer 😉

April 13, 2008 @ 4:47 am | Comment

stuart, i already have a comment to reply to you, if you dare, i will type that reply.

In the mean time, a very good video on the true face of the Western media on the issue of Tibet, completely destroys the facade of “objectivity” of the “Free” media:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=LZf_Ag7SmxI

April 13, 2008 @ 5:08 am | Comment

That’s debatable, at least in my case

That’s not an answer. Certainly it’s not credible to imply you live outside China in spite of things being “worse” than in the PRC.

Personally I’ve always thought the “fuck off if you don’t like it” argument was rather small-minded. It would be like a headmaster telling a parent to “fuck off and take your kid out of here if you think our school has a bullying problem”.

Plus, you yourself are not exactly holed up in India (or wherever you came from), are you?

Who said I was Indian? fatbrick isn’t a fat brick is he? Though it might give a reason for his lack of brain-power.

I live “where I am from”, as it were.

April 13, 2008 @ 5:11 am | Comment

“That’s not an answer. Certainly it’s not credible to imply you live outside China in spite of things being “worse” than in the PRC.”

Sign…Since you are so interested in my personal life, Yes, I think I’d live more comfortably in China since I’m from a rather privileged family (Dad’s a professor, mom’s a capitalist). Plus, I love the food and last but not least, my girlfriend lives there.

“Personally I’ve always thought the “fuck off if you don’t like it” argument was rather small-minded. It would be like a headmaster telling a parent to “fuck off and take your kid out of here if you think our school has a bullying problem”.”

I wasn’t the one making it.

Read more carefully next time, if you don’t mind.

April 13, 2008 @ 5:27 am | Comment

It should have been obvious that the strengthening of the regime in Beijing would lead to many previously hostile ethnic Chinese in the US and Europe who had previously been primarily loyal to the Taipei government or indeed their Western government switching loyalty to Beijing. We’re only now starting to see the tip of the iceberg in terms of the danger this trend will pose to the West in coming decades.

April 13, 2008 @ 6:30 am | Comment

Maybe everything is sponsored by Chinese government.
Maybe this blog is sponsored by Chinese government.
Love live the Matrix!

April 13, 2008 @ 6:51 am | Comment

@ecodelta and Richard,

Gee, I’ll have to check my CCP email account for the smoking gun on Monday.

Ask yourselves, why would a PRC athlete be carrying the torch outside of the PRC? France’s athletes and other VIPs carried the torch on the rest of the route.

She was a plant.

It would be a dirty, rotten, low down, smelly country like China to offer up a handicapped girl as some sort of “martyr”.

April 13, 2008 @ 6:53 am | Comment

Yes, I think I’d live more comfortably in China

So you live outside China because…….?

I wasn’t the one making it.

Read more carefully next time, if you don’t mind.

And I said you made that comment where? Don’t image things.

April 13, 2008 @ 6:58 am | Comment

*Imagine

April 13, 2008 @ 7:02 am | Comment

@nanhe

Because she was after all proud of her country?
Because she wanted to show a piece of China to the world?
Because she wanted to participate in such an event in one of the renowned cities of the world?
Because it would be a great moment for her?

No. I can see her face as she keeps the torch close to her. She is not a plant to me.

And I far as my experience go, no one could purposefully arrange such plan in advance, “it just happened”

We disagree again nanhe.

April 13, 2008 @ 7:08 am | Comment

You guys, I know we’re all free here, but enough with the bickering. We should not criticisen the Chinese for cetain irrational argumentation and then repeat it. And telling people to go somewhere else if they dont like this ir that is really far from helping to fix this huge global problem… I’m just suggesting that we should take this more seriously and think whats best for all people, this is pretty serious.

April 13, 2008 @ 7:18 am | Comment

As far as I’m concerned, we have a China problem.

April 13, 2008 @ 7:22 am | Comment

Gosh theres so much to say, I hope this is time well spent (- :

Hi, Jinhan, …

“””I want to *totally shatter* the dominant status of mainstream media and force people to dig deeper on everything in life, instead of just taking the SHIT spoon-fed to them by CNN.”””

That is totally valid. Wouldnt it be great if we were left alone to think for ourselves and choose a nice and healthy lifestyle based on rational choices and natural living…. Thats what I want for the Chinese people, and for everyone of course (- :

I’ll just comment on what you said about brainwashing…

“”””I can say that I do so sincerely believe that you and everyone else here is brainwashed…Certainly much more brainwashed than I am.

And believe me, I’m VERY often tempted to blurt that out, but I try hard to refrain from doing that because it doesn’t help. It sounds condescending and bluntly put, c*****h. We’ll end up calling each other brainwashed and nothing good will come out of it.””””

Well, what can we do then? Do you think there is truth worth getting at? If you do not want to learn from others and share what you think can help others learn from then why are you here? Personally, I do not think brainwashing is irreversable. I think the facts of the whole big deal would be sufficient to clear things up.

Thats why I say down with the CCP propaganda department, stop the lying… I donno, I am trying to help by saying things that some Chinese are well aware of but are too afraid to say… As long as there is a force that forbids people to speak the truth inder the threat of gruesome torture etc, I feel I have to speak up for their rights, cause those people did nothing wrong, they juts know about the CCP religion and it’s evilness.

I would say, if you can help me be more true,a dn more correct, i will thatnk you in advance for assisting me in furthering my understanding. As long as you respect the truth I will respect you, if you dont care what is true and only want the party to get away with crimes so that you can save face for yourself, then I will really not be able to respect you in my heart…

April 13, 2008 @ 7:55 am | Comment

@Huaxin, sorry, Hongxing,

“That is why the head of China’s department of Propaganda should send a personal thank you letter to CNN,BBC, and most of all the Free Tibet movement. You guys gave them a free gift, absolutely a fantastic gift.”

You are welcome! And we also say thank you to CCTV, Xinhua, China Daily and all the other Chinese media for telling us the truth about what is really going on in the world.

“On a different note, in the last three cities: London, Paris, San Francisco where the torch relay took place. The amount of Chinese immigrants/students who showed up to support the relay and oppose the protests were absolutely overwhelming. In each city, the pro Olympic supporters way way outnumbered the Free Tibet crowd.”

And you counted them all, I guess. Otherwise, how would you know?

“They are all just regular Chinese residents, some on student visas, some are Green card holders, some are American citizens. Some came to the US for less than a year, others have been here for more than 15 years. There are men, women, parents, teachers, professors, engineers, and even grandparents. I personally know many families who spent many weekends going door to door to distribute flyers, either supporting the Olympics or countering many Free Tibet group’s talking points. I know a Chinese mother in SF, with 2 children, who took a week off work to design posters, organize “strategy meetings” with her local friends for the rally on the day of the torch relay, etc.”

“Strategy meetings”, love that expression, and I really would like to know which of the “Tibet group’s talking points” those “many families” were “countering”.

“The last time there was such an overwhelming amount of energy displayed in the the overseas Chinese community was, ironically, in 1989, against the Chinese gov’t.”

Ironically, it was in 1989 that the overseas Chinese community got a lot of new members, like people who were and are not allowed to show up in their beloved mother country anymore, for example to see their families, but “you know, Mr. Laowai, for Chinese people family is very important, as opposed to you ‘Western people’ who don’t care about family.” That’s why we evil Americans/Europeans don’t let those Chinese dissidents go back to their beloved motherland to see their families.

“I think even the Western press was genuinely surprised by the resistance generated by the Chinese community across Europe and America over this issue. Usually, Chinese living overseas are often split on many issues, and are usually pretty sheepish and lethargic. But there are these “bottom line” issues that absolutely they will not budge, and if you push,you will bel pushed back, as you have seen in London, in Paris, in SF, and will continue.”

Yeah, those bottom lines, Chinese farmers can tell you a lot about them, but you wouldn’t care, because you never met a Chinese farmer in your lifetime, you pathetic hypocrite. Go back to China, your beloved motherland, and live the life of an ordinary migrant worker, just for a few weeks, and then we’ll talk about how the Chinese people feel about certain issues.

“In this society, you need to speak up to have your opinion and voices heard. No one will hand you a free microphone, no one will voluntarily come and listen to you. You need to protest, march, fight, otherwise you’ll always been seen as a Chinese sheep, and the Tibetan movements and activists know about this and wants to take advantage of this. Well this time, to be honest, even myself was surprised by the unity and energy and resistance displayed in Chinese communities across the world. The message is simple, ‘we won’t take it anymore’.”

Exactly, Red Heart, that’s the message the Tibetan people want to get across to the Chinese government: “we won’t take it anymore”!

“I think after this series of events are over, the Chinese overseas community will emerge more united, more purposeful, and more strenghthened. And there’ll be some organization established to speak up for us, maybe some lobbying group also.”

That’s exactly what the Tibetan community wants. You couldn’t have said it better. Thank you, Hongxin, for taking our side, but watch out for those typos, “strenghthened”, come on, you can do better than that.

April 13, 2008 @ 8:25 am | Comment

@native whatever ferin

“There’s lots and lots of room in their homeland in Central Asia and Southern Siberia if a couple of them think they’re too good to live with Chinamen and kafirs.”

It’s the Chinamen who think they’re too good to live with the Uighurs, but you wouldn’t know about that, because you never came anywhere close to Xinjiang. You are just talking about issues a little Taiwanese foreign student in the evil US of A isn’t supposed to talk about.

April 13, 2008 @ 8:36 am | Comment

Speaking of martyrs, someone has figured out the identity of the person who tried to take the torch from Jin Jing, and has posted his work address, home address, and e-mail address all over the Internet. Something makes me suspect that this could be an even bigger PR disaster.

April 13, 2008 @ 8:37 am | Comment

“stuart, i already have a comment to reply to you, if you dare, i will type that reply.”

Not if ‘I’ dare, my sweet heavenly body, if *you* dare.

Does it include an apology?

I thought not. No matter; give it a whirl – but try to write rationally without visiting shame upon your family through abusive language 🙂

April 13, 2008 @ 8:59 am | Comment

@ kevin….pudong

Absolutely. This could be the biggest witch hunt since Chinabounder upset Chinese sensibilities – only infinitely more intense.

Excellent post earlier, btw, kevin. If ever there were examples of disabled Chinese defending the dignity of the motherland and the principles of freedom, they are provided by the victims of ’89. And, of course, the broader point is the staggering difference in the attitudes and treatment of those victims compared to Jin Jing – a difference entirely the product of media manipulation.

On that note, I wonder if the CCP realise how much respect they could have earned at home and abroad by including a surviving victim of the massacre in the torch relay? What a great way to finally acknowledge the party’s great shame.

April 13, 2008 @ 9:15 am | Comment

@native apache cheyenne ferin

“America has 1,000 nuclear ICBMs pointed at China, what’s your point?”

So your point is that China is threatening Taiwan, because America is threatening China. That makes sense!!!

“What doesn’t compute for you here?”

Oh, ferin, great master, it all computes very well.

” They don’t want Taiwan to separate economically.”

Thinking of all the karaoke girls they’ve shagged together, that’s understandable.

“The missiles underscore that line.”

And they should! We haven’t drank all that booze and shagged all those farm girls for nothing.

“It’s just symbolic, they could fire missiles at Taiwan whenever they wanted and Taiwan could do the same back.”

Yeah, just symbolic. I like that. Let’s just symbolically kill each other.

“Good straw man mor, you’re very good at making those!”

What straw man?

“Have a cookie.”

Are you on hash brownies again?

“So you’re leading the invasion then?”

Yeah, I’m leading the invasion of the evil brain snatchers. You don’t have to worry, though, nobody will touch you.

“Let me guess, you think your garbage posts on the internet are helping China more than they can help themselves?”

Since you’ve decided to leave them alone and enjoy the American way of life, somebody has to help them, isn’t it?

“What an arrogant, paternalistic prick!”

Let’s keep your father out of this!

“Calm down. Have your wife change your diaper or something.”

I really hope, some day I will be as eloquent, erudite and sophisticated as Great Chairman Ferin. I’m working hard on it.

April 13, 2008 @ 9:28 am | Comment

@native canadian jinhan

“By plenty you mean four or five…versus some 2,000 others.”

And you read all of them, I bet.

“And those that do ‘explain’ the other point of view basically tries to refute it in the same article.”

Maybe that’s because the “other” point of view is just too ridiculous.

“Many Chinese protesters complain about the unfair treatment and intentional marginalization in the media or in the process of reporting.”

Again, what media are we talking about? It’s the PRC’s government controlled media that treat Chinese people unfairly and marginalize their concerns, but that doesn’t have to concern you as you live snug and safe in evil Canada.

“That’s because some people are too brainwashed to realize how brainwashed they are.”

Like those people living in civilized countries somewhere on the Northern part of the American continent, throwing dirt at their host countries while praising the country they’ve left, because it didn’t give them the rights and opportunities they are enjoying now? I know your pain!

“Have you ever heard someone admitting that they are brainwashed?”

Ferin is going to crack one of these days.

“The Chinese official media, like their Western counter parts, definitely does not permit different view points. But unlike Western media, it does not claim to be impartial and does not have the same kind of monopoly over information on a world-wide scale.”

Wrong, totally wrong. You obviously didn’t spend too much time in China. Chinese media, again and again, claim to be objective not only on topics concerning China but also the rest of the world.
The only media that have a monopoly on information are those controlled by authoritarian governments like the goddamn CCP.

“That’s what’s dangerous about the western new-manufacturing agencies.”

Thank God, the benevolent CCP is protecting the poor Chinese people from watching dangerous news like warnings of health risks and the likes.

“Now, if you could succeed where Western media have failed and explain why the mass majority of the overseas Chinese respond similarly with those within China, that’d help a lot.”

Now, if you could prove, that you are right, but you can’t.

“Of course, you can go right ahead and call them brainwashed too. That’ll terminate the discussion immediately: since they are brainwashed, whatever they say is of no value. And since most of not all Chinese are brainwashed, there is no debate.”

It’s not about brainwashing. There’s no discussion, because you are a moron.

“That’s the overwhelmingly media’s message, so far…And a lot of people here have push that argument, though not with the same wording. In the West, it’s quite acceptable to be racist…You just have to find the acceptable words and phrases.”

It’s not acceptable to be racist, which is why we hate you so much. We do remember the comments you wrote not too long ago, even if you forgot them already.

“But you can just guess the possible outcomes of that line of arguing, looking at recent anti-media protests.”

What the hell are “anti-media protests”?

“For me though, it is quite clear that the Chinese would have behaved the same way if everyone of them could read English and had access to CNN.”

If all Chinese people could read English and had access to the Internet, people like you and Master Ferin would be hiding in a hole.

“Defending and sugar-coating a racist riot simply isn’t supposed to bring a lot of support.”

You should have told that to the Politburo in 2005.

April 13, 2008 @ 10:05 am | Comment

@ ecodelta:

Ok, is Jin Jing a French resident who represents China in the para-olympics? If not, how was she brought in to run the flame in France when the practice is to have the athlete’s participation based on the country it is run through? IE, when the torch is in the UK, only UK VIPs, France = French VIPs, etc.

That is the basis of why I think she is a plant.

April 13, 2008 @ 10:30 am | Comment

The CCP is not nearly smart enough to choreograph something like this, let alone to do it perfectly.
Posted by: richard at April 13, 2008 02:17 AM

I really don’t understand this mentality that somehow the CCP is dumb when it comes to PR or anything else.

They may be tone deaf on certain issues due to living inside the dogma bubble for so long, but after so many contracts with folks like Burson Marsteller, how could the CCP really be not smart enough when it comes to PR?

Heck even the Burmese junta knew enough to go house to house to snatch cameras before the really bloody stuff started? Who do you think gave the Burmese junta the guns and the PR advice on eliminating the flow of photojournalism? Perhaps the same folks who forcibly escorted the HK Press from Lhasa to stop the flow of images there?

April 13, 2008 @ 10:35 am | Comment

That is the basis of why I think she is a plant.
Posted by: nanheyangrouchuan at April 13, 2008 10:30 AM

Plant or not, why do ESWN and Richard point to the Leni Riefenstahl moment of Jin Jing and not the SS moment of at least two different torch bearers in two different cities being assaulted by the photogenic Chinese paramilitary in blue for daring to display Tibetan flags?

After all if assault is assault, why does this PR game go only in one direction? Because the CCP is stupid? Or is some other group easily led by the nose of the CCP PR machine with the minimum of prompting?

April 13, 2008 @ 10:43 am | Comment

could be a straw man? What do you mean by that?

You’re assuming that I support the CCP’s actions, which is why it was pointless to discuss anything with you from day one.

My main point in this thread is that when CNN, BBC etc jump onto the bandwagon and spew their retarded Shangri-La romanticization of the DL and Tibet, and ignore the deaths of “Han” Chinese, it feeds the CCP and ultranationalism.

If they actually gave a shit about China, Burma, Tibet, North Korean refugees, Darfur, or all these other causes of the day for Hollywood jerkoffs, they would not be so irresponsible and stupid. But the thing is, they don’t care at all just like 99.99999% of the general population.

Since you’ve decided to leave them alone and enjoy the American way of life, somebody has to help them, isn’t it?

What makes you so sure that the “American way of life” is enjoyable? Are you talking about the obesity, crime rate, stress, drug addiction, or alcoholism? By the way, I was born and raised in America.

Who do you think gave the Burmese junta the guns

Possibly nanhe’s buddies the Indians.

April 13, 2008 @ 11:38 am | Comment

Tom: Plant or not, why do ESWN and Richard point to the Leni Riefenstahl moment of Jin Jing and not the SS moment of at least two different torch bearers in two different cities being assaulted by the photogenic Chinese paramilitary in blue for daring to display Tibetan flags?

I never saw a Riefenstahlesque photo of the scene you describe. That’s why why I didn’t write about it. Period. I can’t write about everything that’s in the news. Certainly this photo I’ve written about has had a far more profound effect than the photo you describe, if it exists.

April 13, 2008 @ 11:51 am | Comment

nanhe: Ask yourselves, why would a PRC athlete be carrying the torch outside of the PRC? France’s athletes and other VIPs carried the torch on the rest of the route.

I believe a Chinese organization held a contest where people send in reasons why they should be sent abroad as torchbearers. Jin Jing was one of the chosen ones and was sent to Paris. Another was a mailman who was sent, I think, to London or San Francisco. There were absolutely no incidents around him. Jin Jing was simply at the right place at the right time. So nanhe, you are completely wrong. In several of the relays there have been/will be torchbearers from mainland China.

Tom: I really don’t understand this mentality that somehow the CCP is dumb when it comes to PR or anything else.

Ever watch CCTV-9? Whoever operates it is dumb as a stump when it comes to propaganda. China Daily. All their propaganda intended for the West is dumb and ineffective beyond words, Have you been to China, and have you seen CCTV-9?

April 13, 2008 @ 12:01 pm | Comment

Turkic peoples, whether they were Uyghur or otherwise in name, were in E. Turkestan and even in what is now central China long before any Han, and Beijing sponsored archaeological digs confirmed that. But Beijing was hoping to prove otherwise.

False. The Tocharians were not Turkic people and the Tibetan-Chinese peoples passed through the area several thousand years ago.

April 13, 2008 @ 12:03 pm | Comment

kevin: Jin Jing is essentially just a propaganda tool for the Chinese government. If she was expressing a viewpoint different from the official line, they wouldn’t hesitate to run her over with a tank:

Spot on. And every word you said about the way the Chinese government treats the handicapped is right. A national disgrace. The way employers demand you be a certain height (not that being short is a handicap – but they seem to think it is); the ban (which I think was changed last year?) on hiring hepatitis-b carriers; the antique attitude toward AIDS (which is also improving but still sucks), the lack of wheelchair ramps and the general mentality that if you are seen walking with your family member in a wheelchair it is some kind of disgrace – these are all pretty abhorrent. The government isn’t entirely to blame for these, especially the last example, but it sure hasn’t helped to broaden people’s minds and accept handicapped people as whole people, equally as valid as any of us.

April 13, 2008 @ 12:10 pm | Comment

The Tocharians were not Turkic people and the Tibetan-Chinese peoples passed through the area several thousand years ago.

…and the evidence? And how does the fact that you can find some traces of Chinese settlement in East Turkestan prove that the region has always been part of China?

April 13, 2008 @ 12:54 pm | Comment

You guys realise that you’re all a bunch of goofballs for accusing each other of being ‘brainwashed’ or arguing over who is more brainwashed, right?

The whole idea of brainwashing is that you strip a person of the ability to think for themselves, to reason, and to moralise. If anybody has actually ever talked to a Mainland Chinese guy, you’ll see that they are not any more lacking in the ability to think for themselves, reason, or moralise than anybody else. It’s a dumb fucking argument, and it’s making this whole discussion petty.

We all form our mental constructs of the world from stimuli in our environment, and build our philosophical interpretations based on this information. It’s true that the PRC is able to maintain a far greater monopoly on the control of the stimuli that will affect the philosophical development of its subjects than any one of the countless organisations competing for this kind of control in the free world (western world, if you insist).

But this does not necessarily make the interpretations that the PRC guides its subjects toward any less valid than any or all of interpretations that emerge in the free world. And it certainly does not make the PRC subject intellectually inferior to the free worlder. What it does is create a much more homogenised opinion base in PRC society, which, to the free worlder talking to Mainland Chinese, may create the illusion of brainwashing, as he will likely find that the range of different opinions in Mainland China to be much smaller than he would if he were talking to people in his own society. Free world societies just have deeper intellectual gene pools, if you�ll excuse my mixing of metaphors, but this does not mean there is anything inherently wrong with the opinion of a China Mainlander. So once again, please, let�s cut out all the brainwash bullshit unless we actually find that someone has had their brain altered in an attempt to rid them of their higher cognitive functions.

April 13, 2008 @ 12:55 pm | Comment

@Jinhan
Your idea that we need to strip away the media corporations that are ‘spoon feeding us shit’ (to paraphrase your comment) is something I’ve heard from many, many left leaning Americans and Canadians, so let’s put aside the Anglo-Sino differences and address the Right-Left differences for a moment. The problem with your interpretation here is that you are neglecting the symbiotic relationship between the information consumer and the corporation. All the major media outlets in the English speaking world rely on making a profit for their continued existence, save the BBC of course, which seems to be a vehicle solely for the purpose of ‘educating’ people with the political and philosophical views of the people who run the BBC. The rest of news outfits’ reports are as manipulated by what their research tells them the public wants to hear as the public is manipulated by what the news outfits report. Bottom line is that CNN, Fox News, and all the others would not survive if they did not continue to please people with their product. There is choice in the information marketplace (more now than ever before), and there is the opportunity for companies to grow into niches if they appear.

So, returning to Anglo-Sino perceptions of each other, why all the PRC bashing? Well you’re partly right that the free world media is biased against the PRC, but it goes deeper than that. If we are being honest with ourselves, most of us individual free world private people are biased against the PRC. There are few things that an overwhelming majority of us are united on, but prejudices against out and out imperialism, and authoritarianism are some of them (it’s my personal belief that World War II was largely responsible for these prejudices, but that’s an aside).

I can’t speak for the non-English speaking parts of the free world as well, but in the English speaking parts, we don’t think about the PRC much. China is all but culturally irrelevant to us, and is only recently becoming economically important. But if we do think about it, we think Tiananmen. If you read through Snow’s various posts, that is basically what most of us think of the PRC. Most of us don’t care as much as her, and some of us will accept that it is a necessary evil, but most of will agree that is a very inferior way to organise a society, and that will be reflected in our media when the PRC is discussed.

What kills me is that so many Chinese Canadians and Americans don’t seem to have recognised this until now.

By the way, were you joking, or are you a communist agitator?

April 13, 2008 @ 12:59 pm | Comment

Ferin, who exactly is native to anywhere? Everyone at some point migrated somewhere. The Uighurs have been in Xinjiang for centuries; they lived there before 1949 and they were born there. To me, that gives them the right to the land.
As for the US, it also gets competition for resources from Europe and India, and even if it only had competition for resources from China, that fact alone does not mean the US is going to threaten China. Lots of countries have conflicting interests, but that doesn’t necessarily mean war.
As for Taiwan, count yourself in the minority. If I had a mao for every time someone asked me “why are you Americans not letting Taiwan reunify with us?” (maybe because the Taiwanese don’t want to…) I would be rich even in the US. You really must be out of it if you think the CCP wouldn’t jump on the chance to take Taiwan, given what they say, how they treat Taiwan and the way they are developing their military.

To all those people who say “can’t you see the Western media is prejudiced?,” I have to ask, can’t you see that Tibetans might feel oppressed by China, that they may feel they were never part of China, and that to many people who are not racist or ignorant there is nothing to distinguish this from imperialism? Can’t you see that what you were taught in history class, what your parents tell you, was not necessarily true? Can’t you see that perhaps your perception of the West is wrong, and just maybe China can do bad things to other countries and peoples as well?
It’s the last thing that really makes people think Chinese people are influenced by their government- the refusal to say just once that yes, China is doing something bad, and Westerners have a point. Look on the bottom of this blog’s main page- is there a Chinese equivalent of that?
Once you can show me Chinese people who actually think outside the box about what territory China has a right to, about the morality of China’s foreign policy, about whether or not China is threatened by the West or Uighur terrorists or whatever, who can manage to say the words “we are doing something wrong”, THEN you can come back and talk about how messed up it is that the “Western media” talks about the CCP controlling Chinese people’s perceptions.
For now, Jinhan, you might as well be working in the Propaganda Bureau. The CCP doesn’t care if you believe what they say about their domestic policies- they’re not dumb, they know they can’t trick you about something in front of your eyes. As long as you feel threatened by the West you’re playing into their hands- the same as many Americans played into Bush’s hands post 9/11.

April 13, 2008 @ 1:06 pm | Comment

J B, why right to live in Tibet only limits to ethnic Tibetans? Why can’t 10 million Sudanese move to northeast America and live in your neighborhood to solve the fresh water shortage problem in Sudan brought about by global warming and drought? Is that the moral thing to do?

Once you figure out the answers to those questions, you will realize modern nationstates (or human societies for that matter) aren’t built on morality but on self-interests.

April 13, 2008 @ 1:55 pm | Comment

I would tend to agree that the Party is horrible at what is referred to as “PR” in some instances. However, in terms of constructing a victimization narrative, they’re experts. No matter whether they’re exploiting and killing minorities, having their citizens attack and burn down other countries’ embassies, or even trying to overcome embargoes put in place after the mass slaughter of their own populace, they are always able to pull at the heartstrings of some people and portray themselves (“China”) as the eternal victim. This is their area of expertise, and Jin Jing certainly fits that whole narrative quite well.

April 13, 2008 @ 2:24 pm | Comment

“… at least two different torch bearers in two different cities being assaulted by the photogenic Chinese paramilitary in blue for daring to display Tibetan flags?”

If anyone has any more info about this I would like to read/see it.

Japan and Australia have made the wise decision to ban the goons in blue. There is no mention of their heavy-handed behaviour on CCTV or in China Daily, of course.

April 13, 2008 @ 2:50 pm | Comment

I grinned a little reading the China Daily… those Tibetan Separatists are a ruthless bunch! You’d think they’d have knocked her over and beaten the shit out of her, the way it was reported.

You must be also channeling the editorial condemning the induction of Leni into the Documentary Hall of Fame, a tragedy which *all* of the West is responsible for…

April 13, 2008 @ 3:30 pm | Comment

Stuart, I’ve never heard of such a thing – the paramilitary “goons” turning on torchbearers. That would be to China’s detriment and they would be fired on the spot. I heard they turned on people trying to attack the torchbearers – a very different situation. If they harmed a torchbearer I would really want to know about it. I think that’s someone’s fantasy.

April 13, 2008 @ 3:54 pm | Comment

I did read a first-person account by one of the torchbearers in a British newspaper about what total dickheads the Chinese security guards were. I was not surprised. I unfortunately can’t find the link, but… I also know that a few runners took it upon themselves to feature a Tibetan armband or some other symbol in their run. I can’t imagine that this was handled well, but perhaps I am underestimating the Chinese security forces (not). I personally can’t believe those slimy goons were allowed into San Francisco. Hopefully everyone still has their internal organs.

April 13, 2008 @ 4:04 pm | Comment

I’ll give you this ferin, you are right about the Tocharians, and this just goes to prove that
White people from SE Europe are the legitimate occupiers of the land China illegally infests:

freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1672757/posts

These settlers later cohabited with the Turkic peoples:

And where is your internationally published and peer-reviewed documentation of genetic relations between Tibetans and Han that goes above and beyond simply 1. being human and 2. being Asian?

And don’t even post and crappy stuff that comes out of Beijing, toilet paper has more value.

April 13, 2008 @ 4:14 pm | Comment

richard, they reportedly were pushing Police around in London as if they were top dog and labelled “thugs” by Lord Coe, organiser of the 2012 Games. That’s quite serious given he’s been largely supportive of the relay and not taken sides with the protestors.

April 13, 2008 @ 4:35 pm | Comment

Where is this photo another commenter above referenced? And I repeat: Was it ever reported that they attacked torchbearers? Someone above claims they attacked “at least two different torchbearers,” which sounds totally insane to me. Pure BS, until I have evidence that says otherwise.

Looking at the pictures I saw of them, they certainly appeared quite scary. And if they were pushing police around they definitely deserve to be called thugs. Where did you see that?

April 13, 2008 @ 4:43 pm | Comment

@raj a kevin

Have a look at this article

http://www.brendanoneill.net/

Invasion of the (chinese) robotic thugs!

Food for thought

April 13, 2008 @ 4:45 pm | Comment

Richard,

Here is the article I think Kevin was talking about:

http://tinyurl.com/44oknl

It’s from the BBC and partly says:

“Former Olympic champion Lord Coe, who is now the head of the organising committee for the 2012 London Games, described them as “horrible”.

“They tried to push me out of the way three times. They did not speak English. They were thugs.”

It continues:

“But at least one of the celebrities charged with carrying the torch in London, TV presenter Konnie Huq, was unhappy with the treatment she received.

“They were barking orders at me, like ‘Run! Stop! This! That!’ and I was like, ‘Oh my gosh, who are these people?'”

I actually read an article that stated that one of the torch bearers had a pro-Tibet head band or something and the “guards” ripped it from his/her hands and started shouting “No! No! No!”

Try to find that later

April 13, 2008 @ 5:06 pm | Comment

test

April 13, 2008 @ 5:19 pm | Comment

Read these great comments by the Chinese ambassador!

http://tinyurl.com/55d7ao

According to BBC political correspondent, Laura Kuenssberg, officials from the British Foreign Office suggest that one way to settle disputes about biased reporting would be for China to allow the international press free access to Tibet.

But Ms Fu says that Western media has to earn China’s “respect”.

Ah, yes. Kowtow three times to Chinese officials and ask them what news stories they would like reported and which not. The foreign media doesn’t need to earn China’s respect in the slightest – that’s a very poor way of saying it needs to censor itself when the government says so.

I think it would be more productive if China focused on making its own media respected in the international community, rather than the sick joke that it is now.

April 13, 2008 @ 5:23 pm | Comment

richard, have you put some sort of censorship thing on the comments? I can post any messages fine, apart from ones using certain words.

April 13, 2008 @ 5:27 pm | Comment

richard

http://tinyurl.com/6e9hoq

Matt Whitticase, of the Free Tibet Campaign, said: “It beggars belief that personnel from the PAP were allowed on to the streets of London at all, let alone that they were allowed to push Metropolitan Police around.

And before you dismiss what he says, I did see it reported elsewhere (though you’ll forgive if I don’t trawl through the last week of material) and I haven’t seen it denied either.

April 13, 2008 @ 5:28 pm | Comment

http://tinyurl.com/5gb9vo

Former Olympic champion Lord Coe, who is now the head of the organising committee for the 2012 London Games, described them as “horrible”.

“They tried to push me out of the way three times. They did not speak English. They were thugs.”

http://tinyurl.com/5v5y6g

Human rights campaigner Peter Tatchell was arrested by the police when he staged his own protest over China’s policies in Tibet.

He said of the Chinese guards: “I saw them jostling and pushing people. Then, in Whitehall, they were throwing protesters to the ground. I got the impression these men were highly-trained and highly-disciplined military types. And they seemed to be in charge. It was shocking that Chinese agents effectively took precedence over the Met.”

April 13, 2008 @ 5:28 pm | Comment

Comments working better now, but for some reason it kept refusing to post that all in one go.

April 13, 2008 @ 5:29 pm | Comment

Richard, found more.

Here is an IHT article:
http://tinyurl.com/6d2dq4

“In London, Sebastian Coe, chairman of the 2012 Olympics organizing committee and a two-time Olympic gold medalist, called them “thugs,” British media reported. One torch-bearer, Konnie Huq, described them as aggressive. “They were very robotic, very full on, and actually I noticed them having skirmishes with our own police and the Olympic authorities before our leg of the relay,” she said on BBC Radio 4.”

Wall Street Journal:
http://tinyurl.com/3moacp

“”I have no idea who they were,” said Marie Lajus, spokeswoman for the Paris police. Ms. Lajus said the Chinese security men rarely interacted with French police when the flame weaved through Paris streets amid throngs of protesters. Several times, the security men confiscated the torch from the torch-bearers and extinguished the flame for reasons that remain unclear, Ms. Lajus added.”

April 13, 2008 @ 5:32 pm | Comment

Re: Western media “earning” Chinese respect:

Very worrying. Given the compromises many Western corporations have made to gain access to the Chinese market, who’s to say that in decades to come, most major Western meda companies won’t have agreed to neuter their China coverage in order that they gain access to the Chinese market?

Murdoch wasn’t the first, and I fear he won’t be the last.

April 13, 2008 @ 5:50 pm | Comment

some guy

Or indeed they may demand a positive spin when it comes to reporting on China and have regular “meetings” with officials.

April 13, 2008 @ 6:16 pm | Comment

If you remove those capitalized words, the first sentence is incomplete. I still can’t get what your point is.

Soory about that. How about you photoshop the image to replace the tank with your best picture and then send it to CNN? 🙂

April 13, 2008 @ 7:08 pm | Comment

“Confiscated the torch.” I have no idea what that means. I
‘m not defending these guys. I just want to get through the emotional clutter and ascertain, did they or did they not do improper things. They certainly looked like goons to me, but then again, so do any bodyguards surrounding someone and pushing back anyone who tries to get too close and throw stuff or assault the person they are protecting. I guess no one can find that aforementioned photograph…? Any photos at all of them hurting anyone or doing improper, anything at all. Just askin’…

Quoting Human Rights Watch about anything related to Tibet is like quoting a Falun Gong leader on religious freedom in China. Then, to quote someone from the Free Tibet movement is simply self-parody. Seriously, if those are the best sources we can come up with…

I am willing to condemn these guys if I see more than anecdotal evidence of actual wrongdoing. There were a lot of threats and attacks in London and Paris, and if the most that can be said is that they pushed someone or asked for the torch back to protect it then I would say on the whole they did an okay job. And it’s not a job I envy – there was no way they could not be seen as thugs. Think about it. Ever see a celebrity surrounded by bodyguards? I have, and I always thought they looked like thugs, especially as they push out of their way people who try to break through to the guy they are protecting. It sounds to me like they were rude and pushy.

When it comes to the blue-shirted goons, all I want to know is what happened? Did they hurt anyone and do anything bad other than push someone at a tense moment or take back the torch because they thought they were protecting it? Because I get the strong feeling some simply want to find them guilty to justify their own belief systems. Yeah, it sounds like they were rude. Definitely. But look at what they were facing. If one torchbearer out of hundreds (or even two) says they look like thugs, does that make them thugs?

April 13, 2008 @ 8:00 pm | Comment

These Chinese go back to China after receiving a lofty education at the expense of American taxpayers. So quit believing every Chinese in the US, etc is because they actually think living standards, etc are better.

I didn’t say that, I asked why he was still living in the US. And I can’t remember him saying he was a student – maybe I’m wrong on that.

Nothing the Chinese gov said against Western media was as effective as the crappy-biased reporting everyone in China could so blatantly see during these events. And now everyone is skeptical about anything that comes out of the US, europe, etc.

Ah, right, and I guess before Chinese people were on our side? Yeah, right! Come on, we know the score. Those Chinese who are interested in this sort of stuff were mostly already anti-Europe/North America/et al. They have been complaining about the foreign media since they got the internet. Those who are open-minded enough to read and consider what is reported without prejudice are relatively small in number.

And as has been said, the hypocricy of denouncing the foreigner media is laughable. The Chinese media does far worse, yet Chinese nationalists lap it up without question.

Pull the beam from your own eye before you point to the speck in mine.

April 13, 2008 @ 8:53 pm | Comment

Dana, I had to delete your comments for their personal and insulting content. If you didn’t notice, I am trying to look at this from all sides. If you think this site is about demonizing China and saying bad things about it, you are totally wrong. I am trying very hard to overcome my own prejudices – and we all have our prejudices. When I first saw the guys in blue with their sunglasses I instantly thought of words like goon and thug and brutes. But were they? If you read carefully, I am not saying they were goons or thugs – I am asking people to tell me why they see them that way and to provide evidence. Because I know we are inclined to let emotions take over our sense of reality. Because I know that I saw them as thugs, too, but when I took a step back I asked myself what they were there for, and what they could have done to not look like thugs.

Dana, you got it totally, totally wrong.

April 13, 2008 @ 9:06 pm | Comment

If one just looks at major western countries and what happened in London and Paris, then it’s a disaster. For example, one in four Americans surveyed are considering not watching the Summer Olympics. However, few people in the West paid attention to successful relays at Almaty, St. Petersburg, Istanbul and Buenos Aires.

As to Chinese security guards as thugs, I am wondering why it seems that they are much more hated than Blackwater employees?

April 13, 2008 @ 10:10 pm | Comment

Richard, here’s an AP wire story that ran on Yahoo.

http://tinyurl.com/5hzx7h

“Yolaine De La Bigne, a French environmental journalist who was a torchbearer in Paris, told The Associated Press she tried to wear a headband with a Tibetan flag, but the Chinese agents ripped it away from her.

“It was seen and then, after four seconds, all the Chinese security pounced on me. There were at least five or six (of them). They started to get angry” and shouted “No! No! No!” in English, she said.”

I’ve found other articles such as these two from The Telegraph and Metro.co.uk:

http://tinyurl.com/5rp7dj
http://tinyurl.com/4tlem6

Those two articles say the blue suits belong to the same group who “crushed Tibet.” Take them for what they’re worth.

April 13, 2008 @ 10:14 pm | Comment

Richard, here’s an AP wire story that ran on Yahoo.

http://tinyurl.com/5hzx7h

“Yolaine De La Bigne, a French environmental journalist who was a torchbearer in Paris, told The Associated Press she tried to wear a headband with a Tibetan flag, but the Chinese agents ripped it away from her.

“It was seen and then, after four seconds, all the Chinese security pounced on me. There were at least five or six (of them). They started to get angry” and shouted “No! No! No!” in English, she said.”

April 13, 2008 @ 10:15 pm | Comment

Must be the number of links I was using.

I’ve found other articles such as these two from The Telegraph and Metro.co.uk:

http://tinyurl.com/5rp7dj
http://tinyurl.com/4tlem6

Those two articles say the blue suits belong to the same group who “crushed Tibet.” Take them for what they’re worth.

April 13, 2008 @ 10:17 pm | Comment

Are you aware that no torchbearers are permitted to exhibit any brand names, flags, political slogans? I agree, the way they acted was thuggish. Or, since she has a definite political bent, maybe her description is exaggerated, I don’t know. No one saw it but her. The article by Richard Spencer, one of my favorite journalists, repeats exactly what I think was what actually happened – when things got rough, the goons pushed some people away. Very bad to push. But I’ve seen bodyguards do the exact same thing. It depends on the filters through which we see them. Looking at the Metro article you cite, I don’t see the slightest implication of wrongdoing. I actually think the Metro article is quite positive and complimentary toward them. I am still waiting to hear even a single objective criticism that isn’t from a Free Tibet or Human Rights Watch spokesperson, or from a torchbearer who was trying to wear a Tibet flag. Nothing. Were those really the best articles you could find detailing their brutality. The most damning sentence in the Metro article is, “Judging by their behaviour so far, however, their training manual could well have read: ‘Conveniently, it is the local custom around the world to put anyone waving a Tibetan flag in a headlock.'” And yet nowhere does the article say they did this, nor have I seen any photos of them doing this, although every single step was videotaped and photographed.

So the men were, according to the AP article, robotic and gruff and a lot of people thought they looked like thugs. I think they deserve criticism if indeed they pushed some people and shouted. I think the comparisons with Nazis that I’ve seen on several blogs and articles is simply deranged and insulting to the victims of Nazis, who weren’t just pushed or shouted at to step back.

This has now gone way off topic. I think we all know where the other stands on the men in blue. I am still completely willing to concede your point, Heiney, as soon as I see evidence they did serious wrong. For now, it looks to me that they acted like boorish, overly aggressive bodyguards who harmed no one but startled some with their brusqueness.

April 13, 2008 @ 10:50 pm | Comment

@nanhe

The Tibetans:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8147435

the Xiongnu:
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1180365

A majority (89%) of the Xiongnu sequences can be classified as belonging to an Asian haplogroup (A, B4b, C, D4, D5 or D5a, or F1b), and nearly 11% belong to European haplogroups (U2, U5a1a, and J1).

Sino-Tibetan Linguistics:
http://www.nvtc.gov/lotw/months/may/SinoTibetanLanguageFamily.htm

White people from SE Europe are the legitimate occupiers of the land China illegally infests:

So your agenda is revealed. Talk to the Xiongnu about it.. China left the Tocharians alone and even protected them for thousands of years until the Uighur and Xiongnu kicked the Tocharians out and absorbed some of them.

The Sino-Tibetan peoples were in Xinjiang LONG before the Tocharians, as they underwent autochthonic evolution at the Kunlun mountains.

April 13, 2008 @ 11:19 pm | Comment

Richard, it is simply the media making mountains out of molehills. The complaint from all the Free Tibet types is that they acted like the fuzz they were.

Speaking of media biases, take a look at this article in the daily telegraph by the Chinese ambassador.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2008/04/12/do1210.xml

Note at the very top there is a link to a news story about the editorial itself entitled

News: Chinese ambassador says Britain ‘lacks respect’

However, that is not what the story said at all, where it mentions respect it reads

“Many complain about China not allowing enough access to the media. In China, the view is that the Western media needs to make an effort to earn respect.”

April 13, 2008 @ 11:32 pm | Comment

For now, it looks to me that they acted like boorish, overly aggressive bodyguards who harmed no one but startled some with their brusqueness.
Posted by: richard at April 13, 2008 10:50 PM

And yet when they assaulted a couple of torch bearers by stealing personal material, you brush it aside, while condemning protesters as assaulting Jin Jing?

And here’s the second assault on a torch bearer in San Francisco. courtesy of ACB.

As for Riefenstahlesque photos, I’d say the one at the top of this thread is one of glorification, eyes closed and hugging the torch to her bosom.

Furthermore, isn’t it interesting that there are lots of photos of Jin Jing and none in the media of the Paris or San Francisco incidents with the torch bearers and the Tibetan flag?

April 13, 2008 @ 11:41 pm | Comment

Tom, that is exactly what I am talking about: You come on and say something about the goons stealing personal material – but nothing to back up the claim. No photo! You only put in a link to – of all people – a blogger who wasn’t there and describes himself as “angry”! I am totally willing to concede everything you say is true. Just show me. And don’t point me to a blogger who wasn’t there, a Tibet activist or Human Rights Watch.

What happened, where is the photograph and the proof that it happened? That’s all. I am still waiting. And I am still willing to say you are totally right. What I’ve seen so far, however, leaves me no choice but to conclude it’s just bullshit. Your comparison of them to storm troopers is obscene – you have to tell us why you feel their actions compare to storm troopers who bashed in the heads of infants and burned people alive. I am waiting for your proof. What did they do, when did they do it, and what were the sufferings of their victims that makes them comparable to the most evil villains of all time?

April 14, 2008 @ 12:11 am | Comment

@Jinhan

“Well, I AM a communist agitator, and the myth of a ‘fair media’ excuses people from free-thinking and bugs the hell out of me.”

Good to know how you see yourself.

“I want to *totally shatter* the dominant status of mainstream media and force people to dig deeper on everything in life, instead of just taking the SHIT spoon-fed to them by CNN.”

So that’s your mission in Canada. Why don’t you start your mission in your beloved mother country before you go proselytizing in other countries?

“And you think you don’t? Well, see, that’s the problem.”

I think there are a few little differences between the People’s Republic of China and Canada, and you obviously agree. Otherwise, you wouldn’t have chosen to live in Canada.

“I can say that I do so sincerely believe that you and everyone else here is brainwashed…Certainly much more brainwashed than I am.”

Yeah, we are all brainwashed. Except for Ferin, he can’t be brainwashed, for an obvious reason.

“And believe me, I’m VERY often tempted to blurt that out, but I try hard to refrain from doing that because it doesn’t help. It sounds condescending and bluntly put, cuntish. We’ll end up calling each other brainwashed and nothing good will come out of it.”

Did you come to this conclusion just by yourself? Jinhan, I’m impressed. I think there is hope for you.

“If you truly believe that most Chinese people are brainwashed beyond saving, then there’s no point coming here except to vent out your frustrations against the brainwashed Chinese zombies–And I suspect some do come here for precisely that purpose.”

I never thought that any Chinese person is brainwashed until you claimed to be Chinese.

“The logical problem with the ‘brainwashed’ argument is, you can label anyone brainwashed just because he agrees even a little with the government’s stance–Or in my case, just for being Chinese.”

The problem is not that you agree with the government, it’s also not that you are Chinese, the problem simply is that you are talking BS most of the time.

“I’m sure the brainwashed peoples of China would thank you for your generous and charitable offer of forgiveness.”

Even if they knew that he is a FLG supporter?

“Yeah, everyone who disagrees with you is a nationalist.”

The problem is not if we agree or disagree, we were talking about your tone.

“I argued that the nationalist movement is a spontaneous response by overseas Chinese exposed to Western media against the Western media and not agitated by the Chinese media.”

Why don’t Chinese people show any “spontaneous” responses to Chinese media?

“And your argument is…’You’re stupid’.”

No, my argument is you’re a hypocrite, telling everybody that China is so much better than the rest of the world while you live in Canada enjoying all the privileges, rights and freedoms that people in your beloved mother country are denied.

“–Yeah, if you don’t like China, get the fuck out!”

Jinhan, I’ll tell you a secret: I already left China over a year ago, because I couldn’t stand the BS anymore. You, however, are still in Canada, aren’t you?

“It’s a fucking shame I had to waste 10 seconds replying to this kind of shitty argument.”

Only 10 seconds? Are you always that fast?

April 14, 2008 @ 12:49 am | Comment

@Jinhan once more

“Sign…Since you are so interested in my personal life, Yes, I think I’d live more comfortably in China since I’m from a rather privileged family (Dad’s a professor, mom’s a capitalist). Plus, I love the food and last but not least, my girlfriend lives there.”

So what on earth are you doing in Canada?

“I wasn’t the one making it.”

Here’s what you said:

“–Yeah, if you don’t like China, get the fuck out!”

There’s a big difference between me asking you why you still stay in Canada, although you find it so terrible, and you telling me: “If you don’t like it, fuck off!”

“Read more carefully next time, if you don’t mind.”

It’s always the same people that can’t read themselves, but think they’re entitled to patronize others.

April 14, 2008 @ 2:18 am | Comment

fucken white trash, get your nose out of Chinese business.

April 14, 2008 @ 2:33 am | Comment

@native American ferin

“You’re assuming that I support the CCP’s actions, which is why it was pointless to discuss anything with you from day one.”

If it’s pointless, why are you still here?

“My main point in this thread is that when CNN, BBC etc jump onto the bandwagon and spew their retarded Shangri-La romanticization of the DL and Tibet, and ignore the deaths of ‘Han’ Chinese, it feeds the CCP and ultranationalism.”

It’s the CCP pigs who are jumping on that bandwagon, renaming towns in SW-China in order to promote tourism and all that. It’s also the CCP pigs that ignore the deaths of Chinese, for example the deaths at the Heavenly Peace Gate massacre.

“If they actually gave a shit about China, Burma, Tibet, North Korean refugees, Darfur, or all these other causes of the day for Hollywood jerkoffs, they would not be so irresponsible and stupid. But the thing is, they don’t care at all just like 99.99999% of the general population.”

I guess the missing 0.00001% of the general population is you.

“What makes you so sure that the ‘American way of life’ is enjoyable? Are you talking about the obesity, crime rate, stress, drug addiction, or alcoholism? By the way, I was born and raised in America.”

Got you, you pretentious little bastard. I always suspected that. You are born in America, you grew up in America and you live in America. What does that make you? An American!!! Hey man, you are a citizen of that terrible evil nation that everybody hates. And you are probably a fat criminal, totally stressed out, on drugs and drunk most of the time. But there’s hope for you. If America is really so bad, you can always become an exile like Phil Cunningham.
Anyway, I find it really funny that a spoiled American youngster thinks he’s in the position to challenge the views grown up people like Kevin and Stuart have on a country where they have lived and worked for several years.

April 14, 2008 @ 2:55 am | Comment

@Some guy

“Re: Western media “earning” Chinese respect:

Very worrying. Given the compromises many Western corporations have made to gain access to the Chinese market, who’s to say that in decades to come, most major Western meda companies won’t have agreed to neuter their China coverage in order that they gain access to the Chinese market?

Murdoch wasn’t the first, and I fear he won’t be the last.”

Excellent point! This is one of the greatest challenges we are facing nowadays. And to those who think I’m slightly paranoid, we’ll talk about this in a few years (hopefully not).

April 14, 2008 @ 3:08 am | Comment

@CLC

“Soory about that. How about you photoshop the image to replace the tank with your best picture and then send it to CNN? :)”

Nice idea, but I still don’t get your point. You probably never had one.

April 14, 2008 @ 3:10 am | Comment

@asfdafa

“fucken white trash, get your nose out of Chinese business.”

Shut the fuck up when grown-ups are talking.

April 14, 2008 @ 3:13 am | Comment

Richard, I would have to say that your swipe at Human Rights Watch above was a bit unfair. Human Rights Watch does not focus on any particular country, and willingly criticizes governments around the world, including their own “home base” government. They have no national allegiance, only an allegiance to an ideal, and I have yet to come across any inaccuracies from HRW. Your dismissal of info from HRW therefore seems a bit problematic. Just my two cents.

April 14, 2008 @ 3:16 am | Comment

If it’s pointless, why are you still here?

Why am I still here? You do realize that I have never seriously considered anything you’ve ever said aside from taking the occasional jab to piss you off?

You’re just too brainwashed and hypocritical.

It’s the CCP pigs who are jumping on that bandwagon, renaming towns in SW-China in order to promote tourism and all that. It’s also the CCP pigs that ignore the deaths of Chinese, for example the deaths at the Heavenly Peace Gate massacre.

What’s that? Tu quoque, tu quoque, tu quoque! /endless parroting.

You and Western news corporations contribute. CONTRIBUTE, do you know the meaning of the word?

I always suspected that.

Gee, no shit sherlock, I only mentioned it 300 million times. Aren’t you the perceptive one? Here’s a hint: I *read* blogs a lot. When I don’t comment, it means I don’t disagree. I never said I “knew more about China”. I just know a lot more than a few posters about a couple key, specific issues that missing from certain arguments. I don’t necessarily disagree with any of you or kevin’s views; I just don’t like either of you and I’m sure the feeling is mutual. You just assume I’m a CCP apologist because I attack nanhe when he’s being an idiot.

Like, for example, the fact that the Uighur are not native to Xinjiang. Clue nanhe in on that!

April 14, 2008 @ 4:35 am | Comment

@native born American Ferin

“Why am I still here? You do realize that I have never seriously considered anything you’ve ever said aside from taking the occasional jab to piss you off?”

In other words, all you say is BS?

“You’re just too brainwashed and hypocritical.”

A spoiled American high school kid who pretends to be a China expert calls me “hypocritical”. Good one!

“What’s that? Tu quoque, tu quoque, tu quoque! /endless parroting.”

It’s not “tu quoque”. My point is that the government of your beloved (imaginary) mother land is doing exactly what you are blaming the so-called “West” for.

“You and Western news corporations contribute. CONTRIBUTE, do you know the meaning of the word?”

Contribute to what? Chinese people knowing the truth about what’s going on?

“Gee, no shit sherlock, I only mentioned it 300 million times.”

No, what you did a lot of times was to call me a liar, because I talked about issues concerning China that you know nothing about, because you are an ignorant American youngster.

“Aren’t you the perceptive one?”

What’s that supposed to mean?

“Here’s a hint: I *read* blogs a lot.”

You’ve got nothing else to do, Dad’s taking care of you. You never had to work for a living, so you can spend most of your time pretending to be some sort of expert on a country that you only know from short visits to relatives and friends.

“When I don’t comment, it means I don’t disagree.”

And when you do comment, it means you don’t know what you are talking about.

“I never said I ‘knew more about China’.”

Fact is: you know nothing about China. You are one of those spoiled, ignorant youths who think having a DSL connection means they can comment on topics they know BS about.

“I just know a lot more than a few posters about a couple key, specific issues that missing from certain arguments.”

Considering that you were born and raised in America (according to your own words) your English is appalling.

“I don’t necessarily disagree with any of you or kevin’s views; I just don’t like either of you and I’m sure the feeling is mutual. ”

Why don’t you like us? And what makes you think the feeling is mutual. We all love you for your erudite and sophisticated comments.

“You just assume I’m a CCP apologist because I attack nanhe when he’s being an idiot.”

No. 1: Nobody assumes you are a CCP apologist. We all know you are a spoiled, hedonistic American youngster whose most daring act of the week is verbally abusing people on blogsites.

No. 2: Nanhe is not an idiot. He’s far more intelligent than you are.

No. 3: Dear Ferin, if America is as bad as you always say it is, why don’t you just leave? I’m sure Yang Rui has a job for you.

April 14, 2008 @ 6:01 am | Comment

Kevin, didin’t mean to swipe at HRW. I’ve quoted them before. But they definitely have a point of view and an agenda when it comes to China. Their point of view may be a correct one. But I don’t think they are objective on the topic of China. If you want details we can talk about it by email. Thanks.

April 14, 2008 @ 8:24 am | Comment

In the West, virtually everyone is actively critical of the news media. No one believes it is always objective or truthful, which gives rise to rampant rumor-mongering and conspiracy theories. In the US criticism of CNN and other news organizations is a virtually a pillar of the blogosphere.

In the end what I find it interesting is that many people say, “we don’t believe or follow CCTV because we know its propaganda,” yet somehow their views pretty much mirror CCTV and the CCP’s “official version.” This “official version,” is that there is only one truth, one reality, only one party possesses this truth, and all views are to be exterminated. Just read the MIT BBS posts, or anything else on Tianya regarding Tibet, no nuance, no subtlety.

It is the antithesis of freedom of speech, and the central tenet of journalism.

April 14, 2008 @ 8:47 am | Comment

On my blog, ferin stated that he lives in Canada, just for future reference.

April 14, 2008 @ 10:47 am | Comment

@ferin the canadian

w.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1180365

you missed this part:

“After the fusion of the A and B sectors, new graves were dug in the west. These graves correspond to a group of genetically linked individuals, since they belong to a single paternal lineage. Interestingly, this paternal lineage has been, at least in part (6 of 7 STRs), found in a present-day Turkish individual (Henke et al. 2001). Moreover, the mtDNA sequence shared by four of these paternal relatives (from graves 46, 52, 54, and 57) were also found in a Turkish individuals (Comas et al. 1996), suggesting a possible Turkish origin of these ancient specimens. Two other individuals buried in the B sector (graves 61 and 90) were characterized by mtDNA sequences found in Turkish people (Calafell 1996; Richards et al. 2000). These data might reflect the emergence at the end of the necropolis of a Turkish component in the Xiongnu tribe.

In conclusion, our study shows how the use of genetic markers of different mutability might provide an insight into the history of past necropolises. It also provides genetic data on ancient Eurasian specimens that could help to confirm or disprove models developed from modern genetic data to explain population history. Finally, it provides an excellent tool to select samples of interest for interpopulation analyses.”

w.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8147435

“The frequency and distribution of these haplogroups in modern Asian populations are supportive of previous genetic evidence that Tibetans, although located in southern Asia, share common ancestral origins with northern Mongoloid populations.”

So you want to correlate these two studies? The Mongoloid group that Asians are classified under has Turkish and other Eurasian roots. And the Koreans and Japanese are also “Mongoloid”. But I guess that is the underlying logic behind Beijing’s claims over those territories too.

“w.nvtc.gov/lotw/months/may/SinoTibetanLanguageFamily.htm

You don’t read the articles you site, do you?

“The ancestral *Proto-Sino-Tibetan language is thought to have originated somewhere in the Himalayan plateau, the source of the great rivers of East and Southeast Asia, including the Yellow, Yangtze, Mekong, Brahmaputra, and Irrawaddy. Scholars hypothesize that this ancestral language split into *Proto-Chinese and *Proto-Tibeto-Burman around 4,000 BC”

So, 6000 years ago Chinese and Tibetan were related. The Arabic tongues are older and still much closer in relation. Additionally, excluding political acknowledgments by the source you are siting, all of Tibet’s neighbors speak a different language and Tibet’s “languages” are called “Tibeto-Burman”, not “Sino-Tibetan”.

So thanks for the link, you helped reinforce the points of the Tibet Liberation camp.

Not much of an academic, don’t even read your own sources.

April 14, 2008 @ 11:25 am | Comment

When the incident happen, Jin Jing was on her way to exchange point and her torch was not lit. She was not the focus of the whole event and ignored by reporters. Which also explain the lack of the guard in blue. All the pictures and videos were taken by pass by amateurs. I believe it was difficult to claim it is stage-managed.

Don’t see her as a political tool. She is a normal young girl. She lost one leg when she was 9, but she keeps smile to the live. She has a proper job as an operator in a Shanghai hotel call centre, to feed herself, just like any other common people. She loves fencing, and though she fail to qualify the Para-Olympics, she works hard to help her team-mate to prepare. She loves music and even dance. She is a perfect symbol of Olympic Games.

April 14, 2008 @ 8:56 pm | Comment

I agree with you about Jin Jing, but I also believe she has been exploited by a government that knows a godsend when they see one. Not that my own government would ever do anything like that.

April 14, 2008 @ 9:15 pm | Comment

Ha-Ha~
I am Chinese in mainland of China. I am surprised by your funny imagination, but I have to say there is too much Bias in your mind towards China, which let you make such Ridiculous theory. You do not have any concrete proof for your theory, do you?
In that day, there were so many attacks to torchbearers in Paris. The attack to Jin Jing does not seem to be faked or planed by Chinese government. It is certainly a true attack by Tibetan mob.

Certainly, nearly all torch-bearers in France ought to have been French.
The answer is quite simple. She is a Lenovo Torchbearer for international relay outside China, and Lenovo have branch in France. Have you ever hear of it?

Regarding the Lenovo Torchbearer for international relay outside China, the news report dated on July 31st, 2007 is as below:
For text:
http://www.cctv.com/program/sportsscene/20070731/116558_2.shtml

And For Video:
http://www.cctv.com/video/sportsscene/2007/07/sportsscene_300_20070731_6.shtml

You know, some big companies, who are sponsors and partners of Olympics, such as Samsung, Coca-cola and Lenovo, they always prompt a number of people as torchbearers. Lenovo can prompt more than one thousand torchbearers around the world, including 19 Torchbearers to go to foreign countries. It is normal. Lenovo held a very popular live TV show in China as a Contest/Competition to select the torchbearers, last year. The name of the TV show competition is �你就是火炬手 (You are the Torchbearer)� Thousands of Chinese people have participated in this contest since August, 2007.

I found a video of the contest of Nanjing District, on Sep. 23rd, 2008, as below:

Part No.1
http://www.tudou.com/programs/view/CxIMGzngTng/
For other contestants.

Part No.2
http://www.tudou.com/programs/view/9scuRp1TWKw/
For other contestants.

Part No.3
http://www.tudou.com/programs/view/uJm58IYubJU/
Jin Jing appears at the 16 minute,

Part No.4
http://www.tudou.com/programs/view/-vejDHaFmL0/
At the 1st minute, Jin Jing is introducing a Flash Cartoon of Fence-play which she made by herself. At the 13th minute, contestants answered questions. All the qualified contestants are voted by audience. At the 18th minute, the qualified 5 contestants swore to flag of Olympics, and they were going to the next step of national contest.
Nobody knew if Jin Jing could be sent to Paris or anywhere else. Because the city where a qualified contestant will be sent to was decided by Random Selection in the face of audience by Live broadcast on TV at the final contest in November, 2007.
It is a fair and public contest/competition. Jin Jing won her privilege as a torchbearer in the contest in a contest on Nov. 25th, 2007. Although, there have been some risk of Tibetan attack towards torchbearers since March, 2008, she would not give up her Dream!
I will not waste any more time in explanation. Many Chinese people have watched the popular contest.

April 14, 2008 @ 10:37 pm | Comment

I never, ever said the attack on her was faked or planned. Never.

April 14, 2008 @ 10:56 pm | Comment

No. 3: Dear Ferin, if America is as bad as you always say it is, why don’t you just leave? I’m sure Yang Rui has a job for you.

Dear Mor, if China is as bad as you always say it is, why don’t you just exchange your Chinese “wife” for a Thai one? And I’m “more intelligent” than you, nanhe, and kevin combined.

So you want to correlate these two studies? The Mongoloid group that Asians are classified under has Turkish and other Eurasian roots. And the Koreans and Japanese are also “Mongoloid”. But I guess that is the underlying logic behind Beijing’s claims over those territories too.

Nope. I listed the first to give you the genetic makeup of the ancestors of the Uighur, and where their homeland is located- somewhere around Southern Siberia (and modern day Central Asia)

As for the Tibetans, yes, they split with the Northern Han 4,000-5,000 years ago. But they’re still more closely related to the Northern Han than any other group. Kinda shatters your notions of South Asian origins for Tibetans, huh?

I like how the U.S keeps supporting India despite the fact that it’s just as bad or worse than China in every single way, they’re not small enough to be cowed into subservience either and they’re going to end up competing with the U.S for resources.

And don’t worry about Tibet, worry about the Republic of Lakotah that has a much more compelling case for secession. Considering non-Natives don’t belong in North America.

April 14, 2008 @ 11:16 pm | Comment

[…] potentially embarrassing anniversaries. Just like the wheelchair-bound torchbearer who suddenly galvanized the patriotism of Chinese people all around the world, we now have a new superstar. And there’s very little that can be done to diminish […]

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May 12, 2009 @ 11:00 pm | Pingback

[…] public view in Paris by a pro-Tibet activist determined to grab the Olympic torch from her hands. She refuses to yield, using her body to protect the torch as if it were a child. The timing was incredible: China was reeling from criticism of its handling of ethnic tension in […]

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