Don’t waste your time trying to persuade those narrow-minded silly Chinese. The normal Chinese people are just slaves of those dictators. They don’t have their own thoughts. The dictators do that for them. To deal with China is to deal with those dictators, not those poor people.

Trust me, most dictators in China like western culture. They want to be a member of the western society. But to maintain their sovereignty, they lie to those poor people.

If the civilized world wants to continue the advantage over China, don’t try to override the communist regime (though it is not communism anymore). They will ‘squeeze’ as many benefits from Chinese, which will benefit the western society.

If you free those people from dictators like in WWII from Japan, many chances there is a new dictator like Chairman Mao ruling those people which is the enemy of the civilized world. No way for them to have democracy. There is no culture enlightenment in China, most Chinese are just peasants.

January 12, 2009 @ 9:27 am | Comment

cina, what’s your problem? If you’re going to be a one-trick pony putting up one comment after another blasting the Chinese please take your schtick elsewhere. Thanks.

January 12, 2009 @ 9:38 am | Comment

I studied Chinese for a long time. I know the nature of Chinese. I just find this blog so I may post too many.

In a Chinese forum overseas, they call you crazy psycho because you tell them what freedom is.

If you don’t like it, I will just leave…

January 12, 2009 @ 9:49 am | Comment

ictimhood is one of the most difficult things to give up.

It’s not “victimhood status” akin to that of certain whiners in America. China doesn’t gain anything from being constantly smeared by Western “news” corporations.

However, much of it is just an American desire for sensationalism in the news. There is, however, a deep bias which can’t be denied.

January 12, 2009 @ 1:35 pm | Comment

We all know that authority has issues with media like CNN, but it should be note that when it comes to ordinary people, as far as these who do have access to it are concerned, the issues are still there, and I do believe their complaints are legitimate.

For example, I just searched on CNN.com for China, video,relevence. Here are the results

1.
Rice has “concerns” with China 1:30 updated Sat, August 20, 2005
2.
Piracy rife in China 1:45 updated Wed, September 14, 2005
3.
China: Deng and now 3:03 updated Fri, December 19, 2008
4.
China’s economy losing steam 2:14 updated Thu, December 18, 2008
5.
Wal-Mart expanding in China 1:08 updated Tue, October 21, 2008
6.
China milk crisis ‘deplorable’ 1:57 updated Fri, September 26, 2008
7.
Fourth baby dies in China 2:00 updated Thu, September 18, 2008
8.
China protesters in trouble 2:36 updated Thu, August 21, 2008
9.
China human rights criticism 1:22 updated Tue, July 29, 2008
10.
China blames media 1:28 updated Fri, June 6, 2008

Although these reports are true, most of them are pretty much about negative side of China.

Of course you can argue that, when it comes to US,the reports are even more negative. But there is one problem, for an average American who lives in US, read these reports, they know that there are lots of other things going on besides ” shooting incident in California”,”Pope”, etc. These negative reports about American only reflect a small part of American life, and they know it America is not hell just because why news say. Yet when it comes to China, things become different.

I had a number of occasions of facing silly questions from Westerners brought up under this environment. As the same negative reports about other country simple makes them think that is the whole picture of the country.

January 12, 2009 @ 1:39 pm | Comment

@A Chinese

If you watch Chinese media, you can see only the other side.

January 12, 2009 @ 1:51 pm | Comment

If you watch Chinese media, you can see only the other side.

You’re an idiot if you believe this is relevant.

January 12, 2009 @ 2:39 pm | Comment

cina: If you don’t like it, I will just leave…

You don’t have to leave, but please don’t hurl blanket insults at the Chinese people (“most Chinese are just peasants”), and don’t be like one of our old friends who simply kept repeating the mantra that China is “bad.” Thanks.

January 12, 2009 @ 2:58 pm | Comment

I don’t intend to insult by saying that. I am a Chinese from Mainland China. I know the exact problem of China. In their minds, most Chinese are peasants even they lead urban lives, or even became dictators themselves. In their logic, there should be a dictator there as long as he can provide them with good lives. You can’t find words like freedom or equality in Chinese’s dictionary.

January 12, 2009 @ 3:08 pm | Comment

@youfriend

Don’t try to initiate a fight by saying dirty word

January 12, 2009 @ 3:23 pm | Comment

@A Chinese: I think you took the last 100 articles written about China and put it to percentages of “good”, “bad”, “neutral” you’d find that the ratio largely holds up for news written about most countries – certainly countries with a widely different cultural and political climate.

For comparisons sake, do a search for Thailand, Israel, Russia, France, Egypt or any of a plethora of other countries that are just as likely to have the approximately 60% negativity rate (according to your headlines at least).

It’s exactly for the reason you mention – sensational news. Headlines like, “Weather on Hawaii great, still” just don’t catch an editor’s eye and when you have to choose with a laser pointer in a dark room what tiny section to point at, it’s not too hard to see why certain stories are chosen.

Is it biased? Absolutely. Is it biased because it is China. I don’t think so.

The most important thing to remember is that we now live in a world where The Media is the trusted institution that we had previously assumed it was. Fortunately we also live in a world where our sources for news are incredibly varied, much to our benefit.

January 12, 2009 @ 3:26 pm | Comment

“I had a number of occasions of facing silly questions from Westerners brought up under this environment.”

And foreigners in China don’t get silly questions from Chinese based on mis-information and prejudice?

January 12, 2009 @ 4:00 pm | Comment

There is, however, a deep bias which can’t be denied.

I actually deny that there is deep bias. I will say there is sometimes ignorance, but rarely deep bias. The China story has been glowingly told by the US media, helping to make China’s economic success the envy of the world. In fact, many of those stories were biased in favor of China, and reporters seemed to be stepping all over one another to gush about China’s “economic miracle.”

Where I see ignorance in the US media is the telling of the Tibet story and certain other hot-button subjects, but I don’t think this is prejudice, and the offending stories are usually written by pundits in the US who haven’t been to China or know it only superficially. Sometimes there is anti-China bias, but not more than you’d find toward other countries, as Ryan points out.

Comparing China’s own media prejudices to CNN’s would not justify CNN’s mistakes or biases, but it still has to be stated for the record: if you want to see real media bias, just turn on CCTV and watch a mind-numbing, endless parade of pro-China, anti-China’s “enemies” stories, all told with a straight face. We’re not talking about some questionably cropped photos, but of blatant sugar-coating and, at times, falsification.

January 12, 2009 @ 4:19 pm | Comment

“…but it still has to be stated for the record: if you want to see real media bias, just turn on CCTV and watch a mind-numbing, endless parade of pro-China, anti-China’s “enemies” stories, all told with a straight face. We’re not talking about some questionably cropped photos, but of blatant sugar-coating and, at times, falsification.”

Couldn’t have put better myself. Worth repeating.

January 12, 2009 @ 9:11 pm | Comment

Well, it seems your request has been heard Stuart!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7824255.stm

Chinese intellectuals have signed an open letter calling for a boycott of state television news programmes.

The letter says China’s Central Television (CCTV) has turned its news and historical drama series into propaganda to brainwash its audience.

Talk about coincidences… We live in very interesting times…

January 12, 2009 @ 11:15 pm | Comment

Richard,

I think you are downplaying the media bias regarding the Tibet issue. If you do a Google a search on Tibet outside the Great Firewall, almost all the sites you are directed to support Tibetan independence. To this day the Western media still question China’s sovereignty over Tibet. When the March riots broke out, the NYT’s op-ed piece is titled China Terrorizes Tibet.

This bias stems from the long anti-communist history of the Cold War, plus the Dalai’s decades work of anti-China propaganda. It is a fundamental issue that divides China and the Western world. If the West does not accept China’s territory integrity, no amount of editing or better reporting can fix CNN’s poor image problem in China.

January 13, 2009 @ 12:15 am | Comment

But the real question is: Who gives a shit if Chinese people believe in CNN or Fox or any outlet out there, WORLDWIDE?

There’s just not point in arguing about a worldwide conspiracy of the medias about China, it’s just plain stupid and nonsense. Ever heard about the concept of opinion diversity? I guess not.

The world VS china!!! Whoooooo….. Eeery isn’t? They’re out to take you! All of you, one by one!

Much more interesting to watch will what the Chinese peoples have to say about what they think about their own medias isn’t? Once people become more outspoken about it, realizing the absurdity of the Orwellian world they live in.

2009 trends Serve the People… It’s already starting and going on strong.

January 13, 2009 @ 12:34 am | Comment

@Ryan,

You make an excellent point, sir and something I agree with wholeheartedly. There appears to be a understanding among some in China (Anti-CNN, I’m looking at you for starters) that their apparent victimhood at the hands of beastly western media ‘conspirators’ is somehow unique only to China.

Anyone and any country is fair game for negative media coverage.

January 13, 2009 @ 1:10 am | Comment

“that their apparent victim hood at the hands of beastly western media ‘conspirators’ is somehow unique only to China.”

Actually it’s not, Iran jumped in the same boat a while ago… Any links between the 2 nations?

I’m just asking the question. Don’t shoot the messenger.

January 13, 2009 @ 1:20 am | Comment

Btw,

I know I’m somewhat of a clown here on this blog, but I was no joking when I said that in 2009 we might witness a total Internet blackout in China.

Just make sure you are prepared for it.

The fire is spreading much faster than I expected it would.

January 13, 2009 @ 1:28 am | Comment

And foreigners in China don’t get silly questions from Chinese based on mis-information and prejudice?

Not nearly as much as Chinese do in those respective “foreign countries” of said person’s origin.

Is it biased? Absolutely. Is it biased because it is China. I don’t think so.

Well, yes. It is biased because, for the most part, America is culturally illiterate. So you can kinda say they are biased because it’s China, and by extension a non-European country. On top of that, China is considered “the enemy”. News on Russia is equally negative, but on reports on Russia you don’t see as many outright lies flying around.

helping to make China’s economic success the envy of the world.

Not from what I’ve seen. 90% of the time it’s some idiot whining about how China is a “trade cheat” that keeps their currency low to STEAL AMER’CAN JERBS and RUIN AMER’CAN ECONOMY and how they HATE AMER’CA’s FREEDOMS etc etc etc

if you want to see real media bias, just turn on CCTV

Again, it is less insidious because everyone knows CCTV is a steaming pile of crap. Americans actually believe the shit they see on TV.

January 13, 2009 @ 1:51 am | Comment

Glad you finally woke up our California / Vancouver friend, we were missing you. A bit too quiet here recently.

January 13, 2009 @ 1:58 am | Comment

And foreigners in China don’t get silly questions from Chinese based on mis-information and prejudice?

Not nearly as much as Chinese do in those respective “foreign countries” of said person’s origin.

“Not nearly as much” Do you have evidence of this?

January 13, 2009 @ 2:01 am | Comment

“News on Russia is equally negative, but on reports on Russia you don’t see as many outright lies flying around.”

You’ll see soon that it’s all falling into place, in an “harmonized way”.

So stop worrying about this, it’s out of your league.

January 13, 2009 @ 2:07 am | Comment

“To this day the Western media still question China’s sovereignty over Tibet.”

Of course. That’s what an unbiased media should do, because there DOES exist a legitimate question – historically, politically, and culturally – over the sovereignty of Tibet.

China’s idea of responsible journalism is adherence to the party line, while the western model prefers that an issue be explored from all sides. Whereas the former denies the right to question, the latter encourages it. Western journalism might not always strike a fair balance, but when you stop asking questions altogether the truth becomes more distant.

Just as China has the right to question Britain’s sovereignty over the Falkland Islands, so other countries have the right to question China’s stance on Tibet. Both issues are full of historical complexity. But if you don’t ask the questions, you’re not going to find any answers.

January 13, 2009 @ 3:12 am | Comment

Am I the only one that does not get it why such an interesting topic such as: Chinese intellectuals have signed an open letter calling for a boycott of state television news programmes.

Is totally ignored in th thread? I’ not calling for attention here, but it’s astounding to see how little impact it’s having on the drones.

That’s scary, and freaky…

January 13, 2009 @ 3:15 am | Comment

Thank you for your answers tonight HAL900.

January 13, 2009 @ 3:22 am | Comment

HAL9000, typo…

January 13, 2009 @ 3:25 am | Comment

Perfect timing:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7824255.stm

January 13, 2009 @ 3:32 am | Comment

Oops! Sorry, Bao – only just saw your previous link.

January 13, 2009 @ 3:35 am | Comment

Of course. That’s what an unbiased media should do, because there DOES exist a legitimate question – historically, politically, and culturally – over the sovereignty of Tibet.

What is the definition of “legitimate”? If China’s sovereignty over Tibet should be examined and questioned thoroughly, shouldn’t USA’s sovereignty of Texas, California, Hawaii also be put under the same international examination. France’s sovereignty over Corsica. Britain’s over Falklands. Denmark over Greenland, etc, etc, etc. If we were to apply this “diligent examination” then theoretically every country’s sovereignty over every one of its regions SHOULD be legitimately and internationally challenged, no?

Then it’s fine. I admit Tibet question is legitimate. What about Hawaii Question? Texas Question? Corsica Question? What about the bigger question about the legitimacy of the current American government? I mean is it, if I were to apply the same rigor, an illegitimate gov’t? It drove out the Indians and slaughtered them by the millions?

If you say Tibet question is legitimate, then you have to admit that the Hawaii question, the Texas question, the Corsica question, the Falklands question, are equally legitimate.

Yet the media is singularly focused on the Tibet question, and as if the others were not questions. Where’s the hard hitting journalism and honesty over the rest of the questions?

The answer, of course, is that the Western media holds the biggest microphone on the world stage today. There may not be a world wide conspiracy, but can you deny the Western media has more ability to set the “topic of the day”, to create an issue where there’s no issue, to create a big issue from a small issue? And if you hold such a huge and influential microphone, can you deny that it can and is being used to push certain agendas and guide people’s opinions?

Imagine if today is a China (and its east asian allies) dominated world. Where the center of the microphone comes from the Chinese media (not in the form of the crass and propagandistic CCTV, but in a much more slick and “professional” and “smooth” form like a Chinese global CNN and BBC). Then Tibet would not really be in the news, but we can create a “controversy” over US’s claim on Hawaii and Texas. And make it a heroic narrative of the poor indigenous people fighting against the big bad US gov’t, and have some Chinese celebrites (imagine the center of world’s commercialism and entertainment is now in China) be the friends and spokespeople for a gentle and kind spiritual leader of the Natives. I mean, then can I now say that that will be an equally legitimate issue? And if anyone challeges me, I can say “well, this is what responsible journalist do”.

Sometimes, you cannot be too simple too naive. Today’s world is a west-centric world, all the microphones, all the attention, all the “topics of the day”, all the “values to strive for”, all the “standards of behavior” are set by the West as the center of the world’ gravity. And all your opinions and speeches and values systems are a result of that. This of course I admit, and there’s nothing I can do about it.

But as a Chinese, a traditional Chinese, I must say this is not necessarily the only way forward, or even the best way. Why can’t we explore alternatives? Is it not a dictatorship in itself to say that you and you represent backward forces and institutions, we represent the forward forces, therefore the world must become more and more like us. Like the historian who wrote “End of History”. Is it really the end of history? I doubt it.

January 13, 2009 @ 3:36 am | Comment

“I admit Tibet question is legitimate.”

Excellent! The duckpond has been harmonized. Goodnight.

January 13, 2009 @ 3:44 am | Comment

You still live in a world driven by confrontations and bigotry and I pity you. You are part of the past Crabby, and your ideology does not stand a chance in 2009 and the future will probe you wrong, like it proved wrong many of your kinds.

All the Chinese people are much wiser than what you wish they are. They will not follow your narrow minded agenda, about the west against the east.

They are more clever, they understand that today in our world we are far beyond this kind of thinking.

The future is bright for China, and do you know why ? Because the Chinese people understand now that they are citizens of the world. More and more, everyday, one Chinese person is waking up and understanding that all this nationalist bullshit means nothing. It is nothing but empty rhetoric from an old age. Prehistoric thinking.

You will not prevail, never, never. And I wish we all die fighting for this ideal if we have to.

Democracy and freedom will prevail, like it or not. And not it will not bring chaos and instant doom upon the Chinese people. It will only bring what any of our kind, the human race, is hoping for , freedom.

January 13, 2009 @ 3:50 am | Comment

Texas: voted to join the union 1845
California: same 1850
Hawaii: same 1950

In all these cases, the people of those territories were asked to vote on whether or not they wanted to become a state and then had to go through an annexation process in which the petition for admittance was debated by the United State Congress and finally ratified.

I’ll let you do your own comparison to the Tibet situation…please stop making uninformed arguments. It took me five minutes to do the research on this, let’s think a little before making wild historical comparisons.

January 13, 2009 @ 3:55 am | Comment

Texas: voted to join the union 1845
California: same 1850
Hawaii: same 1950

Well can I not be a very diligent journalist and say these votes were cast without international supervision, and may be under duress. Right? I mean that’s what a responsible journalist does!

All the Chinese people are much wiser than what you wish they are.

I agree they are wiser than you think. They have seen the experience of the fall of the USSR, they have seen the continued non-development of the entire Latin America after taking the pills by the World Bank economists. They know that a nation’s issues are complex, and just complete Westernization has prove to NOT work.

I agree of course in principle that all societies need to modernize and democratize. Yet in what form? In what path? That is the big question.

If you think that world history has reached an “end”. And we have settled on the final mode of development of politics and human societies (the liberal western model as embodied by the US and Western Europe), and what remains is just figuring out how to “bring the rest up” to be like you. If that is your world view, if that is what you think where the world should go. Then are you not the biggest and the deepest victim of “brainwashing”? I think you are a deeper victim than I am. Because at least I don’t claim that the Chinese regime and its model is the final version, and has universal application. I don’t. I don’t claim that. I think the Chinese model needs to drastically change and evolve, and probably does not have universal application. So in that sense, I am more modest than you are 🙂 I am more open to new ideas than you are 🙂

To end, I quote a passage from Yu Keping, senior policy analyst for the CCP. In his essay “Democracy is a Good Thing”.

Democracy is a good thing, but that is not to say that democracy comes unconditionally…. But the timing and speed of the development of democracy and the choice of the form and system of democracy are conditional. An ideal democratic system must not only be related to the economic state and level of development of society, the regional politics and international environment, it must also be intimately related to the national tradition of political culture, the quality of the politicians and the people, and the daily customs of the people. It requires the wisdom of the politicians and the people to determine how to pay the minimum political and social price in order the attain the maximum democratic effects.

On one hand, we want to absorb all the excellent results from the political culture of all mankind, including all the excellent results of democratic politics; but on the other hand, we will not import an overseas political model. Our construction of political democracy must be closely integrated with the history, culture, tradition and existing social conditions in our nation. Only in this way can the people of China truly enjoy the sweet fruits of political democracy.

January 13, 2009 @ 4:08 am | Comment

“I agree of course in principle that all societies need to modernize and democratize. Yet in what form? In what path? That is the big question.”

You do have a good point Imitation Crabmeat, because in all honestly, after many years in China, I’ve come to question my very own value system.

I’ve first came here, narrow minded and very Western oriented in my mindset. But after many years of living and thinking, I’m not so sure anymore.

I do agree with you, I do not believe that our model represents the ultimate truth. This would be pretentious and a bigoted view.

I will tell you a secret: In my hearth, if what is coming out from the CPP is true, then I wholeheartedly agree with it: Sharing, understanding, mutual understanding, peace, love, etc.

I mean, if all this speech is very true, then, yes, it’s beautiful and I do hope it prevails over our western values based on a conquest and war mentality.

If..

it’s true…

I just don’t have that much faith in humanity yet.. Not yet…

Sometimes I feel like China is being deeply misunderstood, trying to send a message of hope to humanity, trough all our imperfections, our flawed systems, our flawed and warrior logic. I seriously hope sometimes, that China could help us to get us out of this stupid mindset. Call it Utopian, call it idealistic, what if this message was real? How would we feel, Western people, trapped in our warrior and war mindset?

This is just a theory of course. But I’m thinking about it sometimes…

What if it was truly sincere and we were the ones, not getting it?

January 13, 2009 @ 4:23 am | Comment

“They know that a nation’s issues are complex, and just complete Westernization has prove to NOT work.”

I already said that our model is imperfect. Could the answer come from China ?

Maybe… I will not argue against this. We all have a say on this.

January 13, 2009 @ 4:33 am | Comment

And whoever speaks the ultimate truth is a fool…

January 13, 2009 @ 4:43 am | Comment

The Chinese sovereignty over Tibet has stood for centuries. All governments in the world recognize this. Many times, the United Nations has explicitly stated this fact. In comparison China’s claim to Tibet is stronger than the US claim to any of its territories. Under normal circumstances this is a settled issue and there should be no more debate. However in the recent decades the Western media continues to challenge China’s right to Tibet. I do not see this as mere ignorance. If they do not understand the issue, they only need to consult their own governments.

Why is the media still playing up this issue? There is no other explanation than an evil motive.

January 13, 2009 @ 5:30 am | Comment

Imitation Crab Meat. You are being too nice and gentlemanly with these American dullards, these democracy-worshippers.

The only way they’ll sit down and talk to you nicely, the only day when the Tibet issue is no longer an issue, when the Taiwan issue is no longer an issue, is when China has enough intercontinental missiles to cover most population centers the entire europe and US, when China has enough spy satellites to see every car plates in the entire US East Coast, when China’s navy can go head to head with any US carrier fleet whether in the Pacific or the Atlantic, when China’s military bases are as numerous as America’s.

That is the day, when we can sit down and talk such gentlmanly issues as human rights, freedom, etc.

Until then, just keep your head down and work hard.

January 13, 2009 @ 5:42 am | Comment

HX, evil and stupid as usual.

January 13, 2009 @ 8:40 am | Comment

Democracy has been adopted as the political system by most of the countries in the world today, including the African and the Latin American countries. But when it comes to China, democracy seems to be an impossibly complicated and difficult thing for the Chinese and their ruler to accomplish (but they would still tell you it is not that they don’t want it). Just look at Crab meat’s excuses: “an ideal democratic system must not only be related to the economic state and level of development of society, the regional politics and international environment, it must also be intimately related to the national tradition of political culture, the quality of the politicians and the people, and the daily customs of the people. It requires the wisdom of the politicians and the people, …etc”.

Complicated and difficult or not, the Africans and Latinos have successfully built their own democracy and Chinese still just can’t. In the meantime, they try to prove themselves and impress the others with how many Olympic gold medals they have won and their space project. The Chinese people did well in these fields, but when compared to other people, they seem to be politically retarded and can only hang on to their traditional 5000-year old totalitarianism.

January 13, 2009 @ 10:43 am | Comment

“Not nearly as much” Do you have evidence of this?

Yes. Anyone with a brain knows this. Have you been lynched yet? Case closed.

How would we feel, Western people, trapped in our warrior

Warriors have honor.

January 13, 2009 @ 11:03 am | Comment

Looks like we’ve strayed off-topic a bit. Chino, democracy is imperfect and I’m not sure China is ready for a complete makeover. But it is ready for serious reform leading in the path toward democracy. Unfortunately those reforms are coming mighty slowly, and sometimes thr government seems to be going in the wrong direction altogether (witness the recent spike in web censorship). An important step in the right direction will be ending the victim mentality and focusing on what really matters instead of poorly cropped photos and the like.

January 13, 2009 @ 11:11 am | Comment

Alright, let’s come back to the victimhood. Who victimized the Chinese people most and decimated them once in a while? Of course their own government and their own rulers in the successive dynasties. But the Chinese people are misled by their government to focus on the European exploitation and mistreatment of Chinese in the recent 100 years and made oblivious of the crimes against humanities committed by each of their own rulers against Chinese in their history, including the current govt.

January 13, 2009 @ 12:02 pm | Comment

An important step in the right direction will be ending the victim mentality

You mean among foreign whiners in China? I agree. However, the Chinese don’t really have a “victim complex”. It’s just pure hatred. I have never once heard Chinese people ask for reparations from anyone.

Of course their own government and their own rulers in the successive dynasties.

Uh, no. It was usually a combination of bad government + bad foreigners and natural disasters. Again, holding foreign countries responsible does not mean they let the CCP off the hook. The main difference is that the CCP serves a purpose.. occasionally. That, and the CCP has to at times answer to citizens. You haven’t done a single thing for China.

and made oblivious of the crimes against humanities committed by each of their own rulers against Chinese in their history

Again, you’re missing the point. Almost all governments have a history of treating their own people like crap. Europe stands out in that it not only slaughtered millions upon millions of its own all throughout history, they have also caused countless deaths in other countries.

January 13, 2009 @ 3:03 pm | Comment

Ferin, not many countries come close to China in terms of inflicting misery on its own. In terms of percentages, Cambodia comes to mind, as does Stalin’s Russia, North Korea and maybe some candidates in Africa. Don’t deny Mao’s outstanding performance in the massive distribution of starvation, torture, cerebral erasure and death.

January 13, 2009 @ 3:21 pm | Comment

You’re forgetting Nazi Germany that killed 11% of its own population through their stupid war. By most estimates, Mao didn’t come close to achieving this.

Like I said, I have never defended Mao. I’m just not letting these oh-so-pure and wonderful European countries off the hook for their disgusting barbarity.

As for the other “advanced” nations, they were too busy slaughtering others by the millions to kill themselves. If you want to go back into the pre-modern times as the original poster did, then there’s Japan with the non-stop civil wars, intra-European wars since time immemorial and their 4,000+ years of feudalism/slavery, etc.

Again, I have never once defended Mao. You are making assumptions just as el chino is. Don’t assume everyone in China approves of the CCP or Mao Zedong, I’ve yet to meet one who does. Then again, I probably hang around a different sort of crowd.

January 13, 2009 @ 3:29 pm | Comment

rather I should say “completely approves”

January 13, 2009 @ 3:30 pm | Comment

And how about the genocide of the Neanderthals by the homo sapiens, 30000 years ago?

I hope you keep in mind this important event as well, and from now on I suggest that you include it in your ad nauseam rhetoric.

Would be a shame to forget this one because it makes guilty every single human on earth.

January 13, 2009 @ 3:56 pm | Comment

Ferin, I don’t put Nazi Germany in the same category as Russia or China. NG is higher on the evil scale, but most of that 11 percent were German soldiers killed in wars outside of Germany’s borders, or Jews and gypsies Hitler considered non-German. No one’s saying Europe is so fine and perfect; I included Russia in my short list, and will include any other country in Europe that executed, starved or terrorized millions of its own. And this blog never, ever lets Nazi barbarity “off the hook,” so please think before you type.

But why do we keep having the same discussion with you? This has been rehashed too many times. All nations have blood on their hands. If you know this blog you know I constantly call out the crimes of the Bush administration. No favorites here, murder is murder.

Look at how you’ve highjacked and mangled the thread. The only reason Mao came up was because you made the statement that all countries are bad to its own citizens, that China is like the rest. This begged the reference to Mao – of course China under Mao is in a league by itself, with runners-up like Hitler, Pol Pot and Stalin close behind. And now you throw it back and ask why I’m bringing up Mao and putting words in your mouth. No one made any assumptions that you supported Mao, and your saying that someone did so is simply false. What I’m saying is that the example of Mao’s holocaust belies your argument of equal guilt among all nations in how they treat their citizens. Sadly, China still has a lot further to go than many other nations in this area. I can supply lots of links if you need examples.

The US carries a large share of guilt for exporting war and destabilizing other governments and more recently for licensing torture; Germany carries the lion’s share of guilt for race-based extermination; Pol Pot for ideological extermination; and China wins a gold medal in the category of inflicting a quarter-century of non-stop misery and death on its own citizens.

Read carefully. No one is saying you support Mao – only that your are a sloppy historian and generalizer, and that every argument you make goes back to a single proposition: America is the bad one, and China is okay even if “mistakes were made,” and that if it did do something horrific, well, America did even worse. I don’t deny America’s done a lot of bad. But you constantly and reflexively react to every comment on China with the predictable, “But in America….” You are a broken record and, at least at the moment, you’re being a troll.

January 13, 2009 @ 4:09 pm | Comment

And how about the genocide of the Neanderthals by the homo sapiens, 30000 years ago?

Actually, I have brought this up when facing obnoxious, Euro-apologists. However, the Neanderthals were wiped out by European homo sapiens, not all h. sapiens. Then again, back then they weren’t really genetically European.

Amusing, but silly.

All nations have blood on their hands

Exactly. This is the point I keep trying to get across. But why is it that posters here try to make it seem as if the PRC is the only nation that does it? If you’re going to use 30-50 year old CCP atrocities as justification for modern arguments you’re really just begging to have someone come in and bring up European crimes against humanity. Of course it’s not conducive to discussion- you preclude that by constantly digging up Mao’s corpse as an indictment of modern China. He’s dead and done- this is something every Chinese person hears when some foreigner apologist gives his typical litany on how the developed nations have no responsibility to the rest of the world.

you made the statement that all countries are bad to its own citizens, that China is like the rest. This begged the reference to Mao

Jesus Motherfucking Christ, the Mao era is over. Another thing I will never fathom is how the posters here constantly tell Chinese people to “get over” the Nanjing Massacre, Bombing of Shanghai, Unit 731.. etc, but they themselves (that is, the whiny foreigners) will not “get over” Mao when trying hard to make China look bad (at the expense of the people).

What I’m saying is that the example of Mao’s holocaust belies your argument of equal guilt among all nations in how they treat their citizens

And once again I have mentioned that many nations, including almost all European ones, are guilty of unimaginable atrocities against their own people and/or others. This discussion is so ridiculous that I have to take death tolls as a percentage of the population and then divide it by the years to calculate the ruthless efficiency of genocide by nation.

Remember, it’s another poster who first made the claim that China’s governments were extraordinarily cruel and that this is quantifiable. The reason why I strongly oppose this view is because it is a consistent and erroneous bias that “Western” historians have of Chinese history. The other thing is that the way you blog on China creates a sense of hopelessness that is not conducive to real progress.

You are a broken record and, at least at the moment, you’re being a troll.

My message is exceedingly clear. When you write you must be careful about how you say things. That is not counting some occasional mistakes (gini coefficients, death tolls). The reason why I bring up America is because the way some posters here carry on, you’d think that they believe America is a good example for China to look to and that all of China’s problems can be fixed by taking a Euro-American path towards industrialization and modernization; which is clearly not the case. In fact, China must be very different from America or they’ll consume the world into a wasteland.

I’m actually saving you headaches by arguing against deeply ingrained ethnocentrism so you don’t have to hear it from the likes of HX or Math, who are a joke.

January 13, 2009 @ 4:53 pm | Comment

Thanks Ferin, I’m eternally grateful. Now, about what MacKinnon says about CNN and other media….

January 13, 2009 @ 6:28 pm | Comment

Mao was probably most evil emperor in Chinese history and he did many terrible things in culture rev. But do you think its fair to say he murdered 25-35mils of Chinese during the three-years-famine?

[i]
QUESTION: Mr L, you talked about how the Communists did a better job than anyone else could have in ruling China after they came to power, but they also killed enormous numbers of their own people. Do you have any sense of how many people the Chinese government killed under Mao’s rule and, if you do not have a sense for the number, do you think it was more or less, say, than Hitler?

Mr L:
Well, we are talking about two countries with a great difference in population, you know, so you would have to say, like, you would have to pro-rate it, but to me that is not the only significant thing; there is a qualitative difference.

Hitler believed in the rule — world domination by a master race. Mao did not believe in any sort of master race or master country. Once, in 1964, when he received delegations from 16 African countries who were still fighting for independence — so most of them were from guerrilla groups — he had me come to this meeting and I had no idea why, since it had to do with Africa, and I found out after I got there the reason he wanted me there was, he wanted to make the point to them that a racist approach was wrong.

How many people died? Well, the most striking figure I know of is that, in the famine that followed the Great Leap Forward in 1958/59, an estimated between 25 and 35 million people in the countryside starved, partly because of natural disasters, mostly man-made, because of wrong policy. And I think the real crime in Mao’s behavior was, not that he wanted people to die, not at all, but the fact that he thought that he had the right to perform these huge social experiments involving hundreds of millions of people when he, himself, did not know what the result was going to be, but he was trying to find a way for China to develop and to grow prosperous faster. He wanted to do that; he wanted to show the world; so a different kind of thing.

I remember a friend of mine who was an American writer, in 1958 arrived in Beijing, saw the Great Leap Forward, all the false reports on phenomenal increases in production and so on and immediately wanted to write a book about it. And Mao told her, “Don’t do it. Wait five years, because we still don’t know what the outcome of this Great Leap business is going to be”. So he knew that he did not know and still he thought that he had the right to go ahead and do it; social experimentation. Very different sort of mentality from Hitler or Goebbels.
[/i]

January 13, 2009 @ 8:25 pm | Comment

@HongXing

I am sure you are from mainland China because I am.

Your mind still stays in the period of WWII in which power can rule the world. I don’t think China has any chance to develop the same power as Soviet Union did. But the democratic countries had never surrendered to that autocracy like Chinese succumb to their own dictator.

Don’t have those stupid dreams, hehe

January 13, 2009 @ 8:37 pm | Comment

@Imitation Crabmeat

Yu’s article is crap. President Hu uses it for his power struggle. Actually, Hu did the exact opposite to what the article said.

January 13, 2009 @ 8:42 pm | Comment

Why this anchor called Lou Dobbs of CNN, when mentioning China on his news program, he adds the word “Red” in front? Every single instance. Any reason?

Name me any anchor in CCTV that adds “imperialist” or any similar descriptors when mentioning the US?

January 14, 2009 @ 3:01 am | Comment

“Why this anchor called Lou Dobbs of CNN, when mentioning China on his news program, he adds the word “Red” in front? Every single instance. Any reason?”

Because we all hate China HX, especially the people like me, part of the Agency (CIA), I hope you will excuse us, we were brainwashed when we were young…

We are working very hard everyday to destroy China, I hope you understand at least our goal.

China should die!

And crumble upon a ton of printed papers, printed by CNN of course.

Mouhahahahahahaha! (evil laugh)…

January 14, 2009 @ 3:08 am | Comment

Chinese is wired. They are ashamed of being called Red even though their own flag is made of red and their rulers claim that they are communist party and struggle to realize communism.

Actually, in their mind, they already admit that communist is evil. But they want to cooperate with dictators to fool themselves.

January 14, 2009 @ 9:58 am | Comment

No American will call the US imperialist. Chinese tend to call the US by that name especially for those worshiping Chairman Mao a lot. Even in their own official politics and history textbooks which are pure propaganda crap, they use imperialist for the US during Chairman Mao’s ruling. Now they use ‘hegemonism’ to describe the US’s role in the world. They describe the US as a terrible country hated by almost any other countries in the world except some countries like Japan which they say they are just puppet government of the US.

What a joke

January 14, 2009 @ 10:15 am | Comment

Going from “silly questions” to “lynching”? haha

January 14, 2009 @ 12:10 pm | Comment

Actually, in their mind, they already admit that communist is evil. But they want to cooperate with dictators to fool themselves.

You’re an idiot. Just shut up already.

No American will call the US imperialist. Chinese tend to call the US by that name especially for those worshiping Chairman Mao a lot. Even in their own official politics and history textbooks which are pure propaganda crap, they use imperialist for the US during Chairman Mao’s ruling. Now they use ‘hegemonism’ to describe the US’s role in the world. They describe the US as a terrible country hated by almost any other countries in the world except some countries like Japan which they say they are just puppet government of the US.

It’s really not far from the truth. Imperialism = Iraq and annihilation of Native Americans. The only country with a majority pro-America are Japan and Korea.

January 14, 2009 @ 12:25 pm | Comment

@yourfriend

Please keep fooling yourself

January 14, 2009 @ 11:43 pm | Comment

Nobody is taking him seriously anyway, do not worry about him Cina. But do not muzzle him.. yet… it’s fun to watch and read.

The funny thing about you cina, is that you sound genuine. I had doubts at the beginning, but the way you express yourself and the ideas you bring, are just too familiar.

Very happy to finally have somebody from he mainland speaks his mind out. Refreshing I would say.

January 14, 2009 @ 11:50 pm | Comment

Message to yourfriend: You are a minority.

Should I repeat it again?

January 14, 2009 @ 11:55 pm | Comment

“I opened my first blog by chance. At that time, I didn’t even know how to type with computer… Yang Jia’s mother Wang Jingmei, a very honest person, she tried to open a blog, but was forced to close down… You can see that blog is a very great invention. Words written can become a threat that stirs up so much anxiety. Blog is the most powerful weapon in one’s life. Blog is the best thing given to human being. This is a loose form of civil society before we have genuine democracy and more organized civil society. It will lead us to a great new world. I respect all those who insist to blog.”

Good luck yourfriend, in 2009.

January 14, 2009 @ 11:58 pm | Comment

By the way. About our net friend “Cina”, here is a collection of his quotes:

The normal Chinese people are just slaves of those dictators. They don’t have their own thoughts.

There is no culture enlightenment in China, most Chinese are just peasants.

The best strategy is to use one group of Chinese to fight against another.

And his moniker “Cina” is a vocal approximation to “Zhina” or “Shina”, which is widely considered an offensive term for Chinese people used by the Japanese during WWII.

Now he admits he’s Chinese and lived in China, why would he deliberately pick a moniker that is offensive to the Chinese?

Richard, please look into it.

January 15, 2009 @ 2:10 am | Comment

@Imitation Crabmeat

I am a Chinese. But I think the problem of China today is the result of their own deep rooted bad nature. We should not blame merely on the dictators. I use that name to remind me that Chinese should change themselves, their ugly nature. Otherwise there is no bright future ahead.

Maybe I use some harsh words to make you feel uncomfortable. Sorry about that.

January 15, 2009 @ 3:04 am | Comment

Because he’s not living here anymore (as he said).

You’d be surprised how much his thinking is actually reflecting what people think here. It’s harsh, crude, very rough and not very well elaborated, but it’s definitively echoing what many people have to say here in China. As as White (who knows about that, except yourfriend) trash foreigner, I can confirm first hand that what he’s saying is not BS.

And it’s not fitting in your agenda and your unified vision of China.

Unpleasant isn’t?

Boycott Oxygen! It’s allowing people to speak out and live!

January 15, 2009 @ 3:06 am | Comment

I am a Chinese. But I think the problem of China today is the result of their own deep rooted bad nature. We should not blame merely on the dictators. I use that name to remind me that Chinese should change themselves, their ugly nature. Otherwise there is no bright future ahead.

You might be descended from a long-line of classless and despicable whores and illiterate peasants, but most of us have respectable bloodlines. Don’t project your generations of failed humanity upon the rest of us. If you are so depressed about your state, I would suggest that you relieve the world of your existence.

deleted

January 15, 2009 @ 4:50 pm | Comment

deleted

January 15, 2009 @ 4:51 pm | Comment

“It comes as no surprise that your predictions 10 years before or after today were or are crap.”

I don’t think you really want to argue with me on this point… 😉

January 15, 2009 @ 5:07 pm | Comment

Why? Because your ego will be injured in the process? Everything you’ve “predicted” about China has fallen flat.

January 16, 2009 @ 2:35 am | Comment

Really ?

Give me some example…

January 16, 2009 @ 2:40 am | Comment

Like the lowered expectations about the GDP? Or is it about the unrest that could be triggered by the crisis, or is it about the Economic War scenario that is just unfolding before your own eyes?

Or is it about the forthcoming alliance between China, south America and Russia?

Or is it about the fact that China is heading for a major ecological disaster very soon?

I’m tired, I will stop here for tonight, but I will let you pick your choice about my false predictions.

Have fun.

January 16, 2009 @ 2:49 am | Comment

Roll back on this blog, and see when I was speaking about these things, way before everybody was even paying attention to this.

There is a reason why. I’ll let you guess why. My clown friend.

January 16, 2009 @ 2:54 am | Comment

Like the lowered expectations about the GDP? Or is it about the unrest that could be triggered by the crisis, or is it about the Economic War scenario that is just unfolding before your own eyes?

The CCP itself has predicted lower GDP growth in 2009. America is actually going to *contract*. Even more than Japan. This is even considering their growing population, and the fact that it’s the CIA and pro-American sources making these estimates. As for the growing unrest, it’s the same thing you hear every year from American masturbators. Economic war, America has been waging economic war on the entire world for decades. The only difference now is that everyone else is fighting back.

Or is it about the forthcoming alliance between China, south America and Russia?

You’re forgetting Africa, and the Middle East, and Central Asia, and possibly Japan, Taiwan, Hong Kong, Singapore and South Korea, possibly Australia, maybe Europe, and Southeast Asia.

Or is it about the fact that China is heading for a major ecological disaster very soon?

People said that 10 years ago, 20 years ago, etc. There are water shortages, lots of chemical pollution, desertification. Major, but not fatal. America, on the other hand, has consumed itself and other countries into wastelands.

January 16, 2009 @ 6:05 am | Comment

Back to the topic, I agree in some degree with Anti-Cnn. If you can’t publish a accurate article, maybe you should just slow down. It’s like making a excuse when you drive over the limit by saying that you need to go somewhere real fast.

February 18, 2009 @ 5:46 pm | Comment

Well, let’s all follow China’s excellent news model. All accuracy all the time.

News is fast. Mistakes may happen, though they shouldn’t. The MacKinnon story wasn’t hurt by hurrying, but by human error. It happens. Most of the news there is close enough to correct to be broadcast.

February 18, 2009 @ 8:44 pm | Comment

If you can’t publish a accurate article, maybe you should just slow down.

Although I agree that some media groups can irresponsibly jump on things, as richard says if you slow down to the level of the Chinese media the news (certainly international reports) wouldn’t be very “new” by the time it was released. The whole point of news is releasing information to the public as soon as is possible.

There should be a basic level of fact-checking, of course, but you can never be 100% about anything. Would we have those big stories that rocked the Bush administration (by exposing its lies) if the media was always super-cautious? At the least it would have given them more time to cover their tracks/deflect attention to someone or something else.

February 19, 2009 @ 5:09 am | Comment

Exactly like in an arranged marriage, the wife (the Chinese people) is taught to accept all the abuses by her husband master (the CCP) as legitimate and is not supposed to protest it or file divorce. The marriage has to be maintained regardless and against her wish. However, any slight of the woman by the outside people (CNN), intentional or not, is not tolerated , is over-reacted to, and leads to whining about being victimized while she is oblivious of her routine mistreatment by her master.

Anti-CNN is just another propaganda tactic to divert Chinese people’s attention from the real victimizer( the CCP itself) to the imaginary ones and also to make the CCP master look like a righteous one. Sure enough, the Chinese people is duped again and direct their anger to the foreigners instead of the their real victimizer.

For the Chinese people who seek to redress the injustice committed against them throughout their history, it is silly and vain to resort to things like anti-CNN.com or anti-USA.com to blame the imaginary vicimizers. Instead, an anti-CCTV.com or anti-CCP.com will definitely serve this purpose. However, it may take many years for them to be enlightened enough to come to this recognition

February 19, 2009 @ 9:20 am | Comment

I am not not saying that people should , but rather making a point that integrity of journalism is on the line. The news outlet today are way to focus on rating. The point of the news is to inform people about what’s happening in the world, if you put out slant information because of rush job. It is better than not reporting it, since all you doing is creating “pollution” for the lack of better word.

There is a reason why anti-cnn exist and currently anti-cctv. It is because these two news outlet did a rush job. While some might say human are not perfect, but these imperfect must also be point out. If you don’t do your job well, somebody going to notice.

In the end, it all about the rating and ultimately $$$.

February 19, 2009 @ 11:40 am | Comment

It is because these two news outlet did a rush job.

I thought people criticised CCTV because it was a propaganda network.

February 19, 2009 @ 4:37 pm | Comment

I was half asleep when I wrote the previous post.

February 20, 2009 @ 4:42 am | Comment

Good article. But, while I 100% understand that time crunches and undertrained personnel lead to stupid mistakes, ignorance or doing a shoddy job is not an adequate excuse. Especially when you’re working in a global media outlet.

May 4, 2009 @ 2:34 pm | Comment

Correct, they are not good enough excuses. And yet they happen all the time, and always have, even with the best publications. The problem is rare with longer-lead media, but with dailies and broadcast media, they happenall the time in every country.

May 4, 2009 @ 2:51 pm | Comment