China is not about to collapse, democracy is not arriving in the forseeable future, censorship will continue, the CCP isn’t going away and it may still be in power generations from now.
Read this detailed and relatively balanced picture of why this is so. This may baffle and/or displease some of us, but it is reality so we had better get used to it and adapt to it as best we can. That doesn’t mean to kowtow before it and accept all it does with resignation and a sense of inevitability. But we do have to keep a clear head about how Chinese people view their government, and about how the circumstances that actually could lead to an overthrow of some sort simply aren’t there, at least not yet. You can point to the thousands of demonstrations, the ethnic unrest, the massive problems it faces, the environment, and those are all valid issues. But we are nowhere near a tipping point, and may never be. If you are sitting back and waiting for the coming collapse of China, it may be a very long and lonely wait.
Update: See CN Review’s post on the same article. Kai identifies the story’s weakest link, the author’s incredibly misguided suggestion that the US might consider actively helping Chinese people subvert the GFW.
Also, be sure to see this piece on China’s censorship of domestic social media sites, and the West’s misconceptions about the prevalence of Twitter here. This is a good example of Americans seeing China only through the American prism, getting outraged about the blocking of Twitter, never realizing Twitter’s role in China’s social media scene is next to zero. Excellent commentary by Kaiser Kuo.
1
By merp
My grandparents could have told you this 40 years ago.
November 22, 2009 @ 11:28 am | Comment
2
By Richard
I’m not convinced. If you said they’d have tole me this in the early 1990s I’d be less skeptical.
November 22, 2009 @ 11:54 am | Comment
3
By Batman
‘but it is reality so we had better get used to it and adapt to it as best we can…
If you are sitting back and waiting for the coming collapse of China, it may be a very long and lonely wait’
GOOD!
So you have learnt.
How many kowtow you have done so far to be able to live in there?
I can tell you are not young at all so please don’t waste your time just pack and go back.
China will only welcome the true friends not the ones who have bad ideas like you-america vulture you have done enough harm to the world so F*** off.
November 22, 2009 @ 12:16 pm | Comment
4
By oiasunset
Batman,
You are being inappropriate in your comment. Richard can go and live wherever he like – even the “China haters” have the right to badmouth (sometimes tell lies) about China while living in the country. China is not like Singapore, the CCP doesn’t sue economists because they predict the “collapse of China” – Gordon Chang frequently go into China without any problem, for example.
Let them speak, because history will eventually speak – much like it does today.
November 22, 2009 @ 5:31 pm | Comment
5
By ecodelta
Communist, or at least a society bend to implement communist ideas, died long time ago. In Russia by the time of Stalin, in China maybe by the time of the cultural revolution, or maybe since the beginning.
What remains is just a mix of totalitarian/authoritarian regime, with different proportions depending on the circumstances, and which uses and promotes nationalism as sole legitimacy of it right to power.
But exacerbating nationalism is a dangerous thing, sometimes after demonizing an alleged enemy they get themselves limited in their strategic options (painted themselves on the wrong side of the room), and in case of crisis the temptation to try out a “Malvines/Falkland islands” option maybe too strong.
November 22, 2009 @ 5:34 pm | Comment
6
By ecodelta
@oiasunset
Do you consider Richard a China heater or bad-mouther?
Some others do consider him a China tree huger/panda lover.
That is the risk of having a balanced opinion…. you get slaps from both sides of the balance spectrum.
November 22, 2009 @ 5:42 pm | Comment
7
By ecodelta
small correction.
“..nationalism and reckless industrial development.. ”
Specially in CH both are tightly bounded now…. This recklessness strains the social and ecological fabric of the country and promotes global imbalances that sooner or later will have to be addressed.
November 22, 2009 @ 5:48 pm | Comment
8
By W.D. Box
Your concern for the welfare of the Chinese is laudable, and I share your angst, however, I detect a sense of urgency by you on their behalf. My view is that no one takes into account the small battles that have been won over the past thirty years, by untold hundreds that may forever remain nameless and unrecognized. All professions are represented – all persons, especially the Mingong are here. Now take into account fear and power wielded by the commons. The peasantry hold the future of China in their hands. No nation on this earth has come so far in such a short period of time. Why? The government fears the people. It is as it should be.
Governments do not change their policies because they are benevolent – they fear most their loss of power. China is no different. I often feel that critics of China, when they report on events here, do not report on people, places and things – they report on Chinese.
November 22, 2009 @ 6:57 pm | Comment
9
By oiasunset
Richard is, like a lot of commenters here (for example, you), a liberal wish-thinker – the only difference is that he probably has more decency than you-know-who (I won’t name because Richard promised to shut me up if I do).
There is no balanced opinion. I know where Foxnews (and WSJ) stands and I know the position of Xinhua (and People’s Daily) and I can make my own judgement. As for the NYT (and FT recently), you can never trust them because they solemnly claim they are “balanced” while they mix 1% lies with 99% of seemingly truth – and innocent people fall for that trick and bought that 1% but critical lies without any suspicion.
November 22, 2009 @ 7:04 pm | Comment
10
By ecodelta
@oiasunset
“..like a lot of commenters here (for example, you), a liberal wish-thinker”
I am I liberal wish thinker? Interesting, first time I am called that way.
Is that negative?
How do you classify yourself?
“There is no balanced opinion”
Maybe. But you have to find a balance yourself anyway.
“…and bought that 1% but critical lies without any suspicion.”
Your measurement system seem to be too sensitive to errors. An 1% error rate in a transmitted signal is not so bad for me, about the rest % nothing that a good detect/correction procedure cannot deal with.
November 22, 2009 @ 7:35 pm | Comment
11
By ecodelta
@Batman
“Of course, he can say anything here but why blocked the comments he dislike? ”
His blog, his rules. You can start your own blog, nothing prevents you from doing it.
“Or the truth exposed so much he could not stand?”
Your truth.
I agree with you that some comments can be too shallow or fixed too much in a few issues. Not that I consider them unimportant but there is more to China than only that.
I don’t get Foxnews here, nor I am interested in getting it. But I do get two CCTV channels. Watch them occasionally. They have some interesting programs. I specially like some documentaries they broadcast. Other programs…well, at least they improved in the last 20 years..
And real vultures are not so bad as a bird goes. They fly well, live in societies, not agressive at all, and not a few times help us soaring pilots to find the best lift.
And as a garbage/dead animals processing system quite effective, and no need to pay them taxes for the recycling.
November 22, 2009 @ 7:48 pm | Comment
12
By stuart
As ever, any article (however well-balanced and reasonable) about China raises a flag at party HQ and the hard-wired acolytes are dispatched to deliver nonsense like this:
“The hubris of it all – suggesting that a 250 year old “civilization” actually has anything to teach the 5,000 year old Chinese.”
And therein lays the answer to the resilience of Chinese ‘communism’: the alacrity with which most Chinese people allow themselves to be cultivated in the ways of nationalistic resentments. This effectively makes perceived external adversaries the focus of peoples’ fears and anger – and the CCP have little problem selling themselves as the saviours of the kingdom.
Sadly, as is clear from commenters here and elsewhere, intelligence does not immunise against being played like a banjo by Hu and the boys. In fact, being smart seems to strengthen the level of inappropriate anger towards the ‘west’.
November 22, 2009 @ 8:22 pm | Comment
13
By oiasunset
ecodelta,
I’m a conservative who endorses moderate Republican ideas (not the neo-con ideology, which is in fact liberal fundamentalism with a misleading name).
Liberals by definition are wish-thinkers. You are a liberal, then you are a wish-thinker because you allow your fundamental beliefs get in the way of seeing the reality of the world.
Batman,
Don’t talk like that. The world is not what you like it to be – people say whatever they like and if I get offended by every bullshit I would have a miserable life. Take my words – don’t make your life miserable. By the way, Richard is a decent man (he shut me up a few times due to the incompatibility of my views with his liberal ideology, but he has decency so far I can see it).
And the world is full of vultures – you can’t change that so your best choice is to be become a vulture yourself. Of course, being a vulture you can’t really blame the non-vultures (or your victims) badmouthing or even lying about you. This is just life and the Americans learned that many years ago.
November 22, 2009 @ 8:29 pm | Comment
14
By oiasunset
ecodelta,
I learned the art of lying many years ago. I found the very key to a successful lie is that you blend one lie with ninty-nine verifiable true statements.
Be aware, that 1% “margin of error” is exactly the whole purpose of the liar.
November 22, 2009 @ 8:40 pm | Comment
15
By ecodelta
@oiasunset
As an engineer and a long time sport pilot if I didn’t had a good grasp of reality I would have been dead long time ago. Some I know are dead already.
Not that I attempt to escape reality now and them, but better do it in a safe place. Some good beers are usually helpful to achieve that mental state, but better do it just for a few moments and not to often. 😛
November 22, 2009 @ 8:46 pm | Comment
16
By Richard
Batman is an old troll who is commenting under various monikers, a serious no-no.
Sometimes I wonder why I have comments on my blog.
November 22, 2009 @ 11:33 pm | Comment
17
By canrun
The link to the article does not work anymore. Please re-post it. Thanks!
November 22, 2009 @ 11:37 pm | Comment
18
By Richard
Sorry, canrun – it’s fixed. This has been a bad day.
November 22, 2009 @ 11:54 pm | Comment
19
By el chino AIP
Does the U.S. have to be so concerned with the lack of human rights, liberty and democracy of the people in China who generally don’t appreciate such stuff and don’t deserve it either? You can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make it drink.
The U.S. govt is far from being so eager to impose its values, freedom and democracy on the people in China as it was on the Soviet people during the Cold War. The European people want to be free, don’t they? Apparently it uses the call for freedom and democracy as blackmail to extract more concession from the Chinese govt. China, isolated without ally, is no match for the then Soviet bloc in its power and in its threat to the West and it even avoids conflict with its neighbors who infringe on its interests, such as Vietnam, Japan, Burma, Russia. It quietly and quickly paid ransom to the Somali pirates who hijacked its freight liner. It seems it can never take back Taiwan. The ignorant people in China are led to believe that a No.3 GDP and No.1 Olympic gold medal count equal to a superpower. In fact, it is not.
On the other hand, the free people in a democratic China is more difficult to exploit and enslave than the one under a totalitarian regimen, which makes it possible for China to be a sweatshop for the West. So, why freedom and democracy for China?
November 23, 2009 @ 2:06 am | Comment
20
By Math
All the Democracy Lovers Should Just Wash Up and Go To Bed, You Are No Match for the CCP
If the Chinese regime collapses, then it will be due to two causes. One is external, that is, the overseas democracy movement and dissidents-in-exile succeed in overthrowing the Chinese Communist Party. The other is internal, that is, there are changes inside the Chinese leadership that causes it to collapse.
First, let me talk about the possibility of a collapse from external causes. My conclusion is that there is absolutely no such possibility. Even if the Chinese regime makes grave mistakes in policy, so that corruption is 10-fold of what is today, prices go through the roof, people are dying of hunger, armies are shooting citizens on the street, bloodshed is everywhere, etc etc. Given that, the Chinese regime will still cannot be overthrown from the outside.
Why? Well you only need to look at the history of the Nationalist party. After WW2, the massive corruption inside the Nationalist Party was known to the world. And the Party was totally brutal, committed many assassinations, suppressed the media, the prices went through the roof, oppressed all democracy activists, prostitues were everywhere. Back then, Shanghai only had 100,000 prostitutes, and all the 8 alleys in Beijing were open for prostitution. And all kinds of mafia ruled the big cities, and all kinds of robberies, kidnappings, etc happen on the daily basis everywhere in China. And the prices were so high that 1 cent buys you 1 piece of rice. When workers were getting their wages, they need to carry the cash with big plastic bags.
Now, if the Communist Party never existed, would the Nationalists have collapsed back then? I do not think so. I think the Nationalist Party would’ve stayed on comfortably.
And, even given the severe state of corruption and incapacity of the Nationalist Party, the Communist Party still took 3 years of Civil War, killing 1 million+ Nationalist Party soldiers and suffering even more casualties, to topple the Nationalists and own China.
If Mao Zedong back then had listened to Stalin’s advice, and split China with the Nationalists (like North/South Korea), then the Nationalists would still be in control of half of China today!
So it’s quite clear that compared to other nations, China is a “big system”. And changes in a big system are not so easy. If China is only as big as the city of Beijing, then the 1989 incident would be enough to collapse the regime.
Right now, the Chinese Communist Party has 60 million members, a fully modern amry, continental missiles, satellites, cruise ships. The overseas democracy movement has how many members. Let’s be generous to them and say they have 100,000 people. That’s 1/600 of the size of the Chinese regime. If there’s comic, and if the Chinese Communist Party is an adult, then the overseas democracy movement is only a piece of sesame on the same comic page. If you enlarge the size of the overseas democracy mvoement to become normal-sized, then you’ll find that the movement has a huge mountain by its side. If you look closely, you’ll find that the mountain is the toe nail of the Chinese Communist Party. So, you see, if the Chinese Communist Party is that adult, and even if it’s suffering from cancer, from heart attacks, from hepatitis, from AIDS, it still needs not to pay attention to that sesame seed.
Now, let’s talk about internal causes. An internal power struggle within the Communist Party can potentially collapse the regime. And the biggest factor to an internal collapse is having a Gorbachev-like leader emerge. Without that kind of figure, there’s no chance. If Andropov or Brezhnev were able to extend their lives to today, then the USSR would still be fine. And the Gorbachev-style person needs to have a “kind heart”, and do dumb things like open the press, allow elections, etc. The late Chinese Communist Party member Zhao Ziyang had this kind of “heart”, but fortunately was squashed by Deng Xiaoping. And I think we agree today that Hu Jintao is not a Gorbachev-style person. So perhaps the overseas democracy activists can only wait for the next leader in China and hope he’s a Gorbachev-style person. If not, then they have to wait for the next one….
And the overseas democracy activists have no control over who the Chinese regime picks as its next leader. The emergence of Gorbachev was only an unfortunate incident, and had nothing to do with any anti-USSR democracy movement at the time.
Therefore, all efforts by overseas democracy activists are useless. Even if the Chinese Communist Party does collapse one day, it would have anything to do with overseas democracy activists. From the study of probability, those two are independent events.
For example, if there’s a person named “Dumbo Wang”. And “Dumbo Wang” hates the Chinese government. So he burns an incense everyday and say a word of curse to the Chinese gov’t everyday. And if one day the Chinese gov’t did indeed collapse, and he comes out and yells “My cursees and incense burning has worked! Please give me a gov’t post in the new Chinese gov’t! Like they do in Iraq!”. Then I can only say that “Dumbo Wang” is really a dumbo. That is the primary reason why the overseas democracy movement should disband.
November 23, 2009 @ 2:10 am | Comment
21
By ecodelta
With a democratic China the iphones and co will be more expensive.
November 23, 2009 @ 2:11 am | Comment
22
By merp
China is not like Singapore, the CCP doesn’t sue economists because they predict the “collapse of China”
That’s a pretty good idea… but Gordon G. Chang is such an idiot that he hurts his own argument.
On the other hand, the free people in a democratic China is more difficult to exploit and enslave than the one under a totalitarian regimen, which makes it possible for China to be a sweatshop for the West. So, why freedom and democracy for China?
If democracy would really make China so powerful- your snark and bitterness aside- you would not be advocating it. Because a powerful East Asia would grind the West into dust. Imagine the racist angst of 1980s anti-Japanese sentiment and increase that by 20x, Americans will start sending their “Asian” Americans into concentration camps.
November 23, 2009 @ 2:52 am | Comment
23
By ecodelta
@math
“Why? Well you only need to look at the history of the Nationalist party. After WW2, the massive corruption inside the Nationalist Party was known to the world. And the Party was totally brutal, committed many assassinations, suppressed the media, the prices went through the roof, oppressed all democracy activists, prostitues were everywhere. Back then, Shanghai only had 100,000 prostitutes, and all the 8 alleys in Beijing were open for prostitution. And all kinds of mafia ruled the big cities, and all kinds of robberies, kidnappings, etc happen on the daily basis everywhere in China”
For a moment I thought you were talking of the CCP…
November 23, 2009 @ 3:17 am | Comment
24
By merp
Sounds like every country on the planet. Enough with this “only China has prostitutes” bullshit, it’s getting old.
November 23, 2009 @ 3:21 am | Comment
25
By Bao
“And the overseas democracy activists have no control over who the Chinese regime picks as its next leader.”
Hahahahaha
November 23, 2009 @ 3:29 am | Comment
26
By pug_ster
Richard,
If the article is relatively balanced, why does the author call China a Communist country?
November 23, 2009 @ 4:09 am | Comment
27
By ecodelta
@bao
Not even mainlanders have the control, even if they belong to the party.
November 23, 2009 @ 4:18 am | Comment
28
By stuart
“If the article is relatively balanced, why does the author call China a Communist country?”
I think you’re taking sensitivity a bit far with that complaint.
November 23, 2009 @ 6:22 am | Comment
29
By merp
stuart said ” taking sensitivity a bit far”
pure irony… Mr. The Commies are Genociding Us Laowais
November 23, 2009 @ 7:20 am | Comment
30
By pug_ster
@Stuart,
No. Too many of these Western ‘experts’ on China still mentions that China is a communist country when it is not. Either these ‘experts’ are ignorant, stupid, or wants to spread propaganda so that they can stupidify Americans with the Communist China message. The sad thing is that this kind of propaganda is working.
November 23, 2009 @ 8:48 am | Comment
31
By merp
stupidify Americans
I think many have already reached their limit. Anyone stupid enough to believe Iraq had anything to do with 9/11 can’t get much worse.
November 23, 2009 @ 8:51 am | Comment
32
By Richard
I just updated this post. Be sure to check the two new links I added at the end.
November 23, 2009 @ 11:27 am | Comment
33
By stuart
“Too many of these Western ‘experts’ on China still mentions that China is a communist country when it is not.”
It’s kind of you to acknowledge the existence of western experts.
Perhaps their expertise would be enhanced by changing the confusing name of the (one) party in charge. The CCP is China; and so long as they call themselves communists while pushing Marxist philosophy and Maoisms forcibly down the throats of students at every level of Chinese education, I suggest the shoe fits one foot quite nicely.
November 23, 2009 @ 1:51 pm | Comment
34
By steven
Did you ever go to Wuhan? In 1911 0r 1910, most people said the same thing as you said. But history proved them all wrong! Change-including innovation or revolution-happens just randomly and suddenly!
November 23, 2009 @ 2:13 pm | Comment
35
By FOARP
Richard, reading down the thread under your post is like watching a guy catch a drive-by from three different directions. I really, really, really just don’t get why your blog is such instant troll-bait. It must be something special about the colour scheme on your blog or something.
As for the article, I pretty much dropped any ideas that the CCP was going away any time soon within a few days of arriving in China (not that I was a true believer before). Yes, history can surprise us, but it’s not going to any time before the leadership change-over in 2012. This article itself pretty much just re-hashes what exiled dissident Wan Runnan said back in 2006:
http://zonaeuropa.com/20060511_2.htm
November 23, 2009 @ 11:06 pm | Comment
36
By FOARP
One more thing, merp, I know you’re in the US and healthcare there might not be first rate, but you really need help dude.
November 23, 2009 @ 11:08 pm | Comment
37
By Richard
FOARP, I’ve been wondering why my site is troll bait since 2003. It’s some odd phenomenon I’ve never quite understood. From the day I opened comments it started.
I don’t disagree with any of your points. And I know the article doesn’t offer any dramatic new revelations – but its main thesis about the staying power of the CCP is important to keep in mind, especially for those who see every demonstration and every revelation of corruption as some sort of evidence of the coming collapse of China.
November 23, 2009 @ 11:12 pm | Comment
38
By pug_ster
@Stuart,
The author, Josh Kurlantzick, currently works at the Council of Foreign Affairs. Here’s a bio on him.
http://www.carnegieendowment.org/experts/index.cfm?fa=expert_view&expert_id=260
If I should not call him an ‘expert’ then what should I call him?
November 23, 2009 @ 11:18 pm | Comment
39
By merp
@Richard
I was specifically talking about this CCP isn’t going away and it may still be in power generations from now. .
The Nationalists in Taiwan, including many of my family members, fought a bitter war against the Communists. They could all have told you by the time the Second World War was half-way finished that the Japanese had ruined all prospects of winning the civil war- with very little thanks to the Americans.
And therein lays the answer to the resilience of Chinese ‘communism’: the alacrity with which most Chinese people allow themselves to be cultivated in the ways of nationalistic resentments.
And therein lays the answer to the resilience of Chinese ‘nationalism’: the alacrity with which most Westerners and other foreigners allow themselves to be cultivated in the ways of violent, supremacist bigotry.
@ecodelta
Do you consider Richard a China heater or bad-mouther?
Some others do consider him a China tree huger/panda lover.
That is the risk of having a balanced opinion…. you get slaps from both sides of the balance spectrum.
Many “balanced” readers here are only balanced in the spectrum of American left/right- they are certainly far, far from balanced when it comes to the China-West spectrum.
@W.D Box
The government fears the people. It is as it should be.
Finally, someone who gets it! The CCP is authoritarian not because the Chinese are cowardly or spineless. Rather, it’s quite the opposite- Chinese people are the quickest to rebel against corruption and tyranny. George Bush would have been dragged out of the White House and shot if he were governing Chinese.
November 24, 2009 @ 7:19 am | Comment
40
By Peter Hinow
funny:
“One poll of Chinese citizens taken by the Pew Global Attitudes Project found that people in China have a higher degree of satisfaction with conditions in their nation than in almost any country studied.”
like one can conduct an honest opinion poll in a controlled society
November 24, 2009 @ 7:41 am | Comment
41
By stuart
“Chinese people are the quickest to rebel against corruption and tyranny.”
Irony at it’s finest. Well played, old sport.
November 24, 2009 @ 10:54 am | Comment
42
By Palin
With these sheeple american that’s why they have that living beyond their mean issue then the financial meltdown;and war after war with other countries. Not to mention their elected political clowns again and again going to other countries addressing their greatness,even their ordinary people with everage’IQ’ think they are political experts,and economic academics- they cannot fix their own problems but like to lecture others.
What a shame your global leader have to go the Asia(you know where)again to find source to fix their own health(health care reform?)
No wonder the German and the French shunned you when you asked for help for further military expand.
May be some of you have spare money to run blogs overseas like these to carry on your greatness in the air, but why not stay in your own?
To conclude-fart of nothingness, but entertaining. Better than ‘X’ factor tho… 😉
Why not go watching Peter Schiff and Ron Paul,their speeches the essential for american brains…
November 24, 2009 @ 2:42 pm | Comment
43
By Resident Poet
Any China site is troll-bait. The Peking Duck is far from being an exception.
November 24, 2009 @ 4:28 pm | Comment
44
By merp
Irony at it’s finest. Well played, old sport.
They are indeed. The miserable British were slaves for ten thousand years.
November 24, 2009 @ 4:49 pm | Comment
45
By Si
@merp
Blah blah blah…..I hate the West….rah rah rah…..foaming at the mouth….blah blah blah….China is great….rah rah rah…white people are all racist and evil….blah blah blah….I have nothing better to do with my life than troll an English language China blog….yar yar yar….
Yawn
November 24, 2009 @ 10:13 pm | Comment
46
By merp
The truth is hard for some people to take in, I admit.
November 25, 2009 @ 8:16 am | Comment
47
By Si
So you do foam at the mouth and have nothing better to do with your life than troll an English language China blog?
twonk.
November 25, 2009 @ 5:53 pm | Comment
48
By Bao
@Ecodelta
“Not even mainlanders have the control, even if they belong to the party.”
“Whatever the price of the Chinese Revolution it has obviously succeeded… in fostering high morale and community purpose. General social and economic progress is no less impressive….The enormous social advances of China have benefited greatly form the singleness of ideology and purpose…. The social experiment in China under Chairman Mao’s leadership is one of the most important and successful in history.”
David Rockefeller, New York Times, 8-10-1973.
Yawn…
November 26, 2009 @ 4:24 am | Comment
49
By Bao
oBOWma for President.. Oh wait, is already in the office… Doh!
November 26, 2009 @ 4:27 am | Comment
50
By Sojourner
“The miserable British were slaves for ten thousand years.”
Would you like to explain that, merp?
I think it’s an egregiously stupid remark, but maybe I’m missing something.
December 2, 2009 @ 1:29 pm | Comment
51
By merp
To Vikings, Romans, Monarchs, the Church, and now your Corporations. Some form of slavery, underpinned by delusion, was generally the British way of life for all of recorded history.
I suspect that you won’t understand any of this though, so enjoy paying off debts with essential wage slavery for the rest of your life.
December 3, 2009 @ 9:20 am | Comment
52 Posted at www.pekingduck.org
[…] an inherent weakness and lack of confidence, despite the party’s strength and staying power, which I’ve also written about at length recently. Baked by Richard @ 10:58 am, Filed under: Censorship, […]
December 8, 2009 @ 11:03 am | Pingback