too bad not many chinese sees the later part of the story. i've been reading "hungry ghost" and suddenly i realize the word "bad" is so empty. if you talk to city people in china, they will tell you they know things in the country side are bad.. some could be really bad.. but most of them still have no idea what it has been like. that book would suprise anyone in china. but books like that are of course banned.

banning those is a way to secure stability many argue.. but somehow it strikes me as a way to avoid some urgent problems by misinforming the rest of the country.

oh my.
you were making me sick and i was wondering what your point was... well made.
your relentless accountability amazes me. great post, richard.

"Now is a very, very good time to be Chinese, and they respect the rules"

This comment about "respecting the rules" is clearly *not* true, and I suspect is a large part of the reason that mainland China is manifestly *not* Nazi Germany. The inherent chaos in Chinese society makes me dubious that the totalitarian frame implied by the message really fits.
And the other critical point is that the society is *not* motivated by a charismatic leader with messianic goals. If someone like Mao had the current economy of China behind him, it would indeed be a frightening sight to behold, but I don't think anyone would call Hu Jintao or Wen Jiabao charismatic leaders in that mold. They're riding a tiger all right, and may end up inside it, but their goals are far more prosaic than those of the German leaders of the 1930s.

Historical analogies have their place, but remember that the U.S. involvement in Vietman was the result of people trying to avoid "another Munich" and Deng Xiaoping's response to the Tiananmen demonstrations in 1989 was based on his personal experience with the youthful Red Guards of the Cultural Revolution. So the use of analogies can be hazardous to your health.

Kevin, you miss my point. When I said they have respect for the rules, I am referring to the tacitly accepted rule that you do NOT speak out against the government and demand reform. I was not at all referring to obeying traffic rules or environemental safety rules, etc. -- we all know how the Chinese are about those things.

I was also being a little tongue in cheek, when I reinforce the point in the very next sentence with the line, "China is a country of laws." That's a direct quote from the Nicholas Kristof story (below), and it is ironic in the extreme.

Lastly, I never say the Chinese are like the Germans. That would be quite silly. I am looking at historic parallels in terms of economics and society, politics, etc.

Fair enough. I hadn't read the Kristof article when I read your post, so I missed that irony (I thought it was part of the Deutschland Uber Alles analogy).

I've always feared (and still do) that Chinese chauvinism would be a problem if and when the economy really falls into tatters in China.

At some point in the 1990s a social compact took hold in China, in which there's a broad sphere a freedom (social, sexual, artistic) that compares pretty well to, say, much of the U.S. in the 1950s, and a set of topics (political) that are firmly off limits. I had visited Beijing a couple of times before this took hold, and the change in students was quite remarkable. The late 1980s was a time of real intellectual ferment, with many students feeling a need to decide the political course of their country. That changed, and it's a real loss.

At the same time, it's easy to over-estimate both the perceived and actual influence that, say, Americans have over their government. I know that you haven't lived in the U.S. for the last 4 years, but I was impressed in 2000 with the number of people who expressed sentiments like this one from Dave Winer of scripting.com :

This is the first morning since the election that my point of view hasn't shifted. After this is over if anyone tells me that my vote matters, I'm going to laugh. I'm laughing right now.

Just do the math. Let's say it's not a close election. Clearly, in that case, my vote doesn't matter, the outcome would be the same whether or not I voted. Suppose it is a close election. Then it's going to court and a judge is going to decide. In that case my vote doesn't count. As they say in math, QED.

The only remaining question is if the judge is impartial or is a partisan. How could the judge be impartial?

(I don't agree with this, by the way, although it does remind me of this passage from Chuangzi:

"Granting that you and I argue. If you get the better of me, and not
I of you, are you necessarily right and I wrong? Or if I get the better of
you and not you of me, am I necessarily right and you wrong? Or are we both
partly right and partly wrong? Or are we both wholly right and wholly
wrong? You and I cannot know this, and consequently we all live in darkness.

"Whom shall I ask as arbiter between us? If I ask someone who takes
your view, he will side with you. How can such a one arbitrate between us?
If I ask someone who takes my view, he will side with me. How can such a one
arbitrate between us? If I ask someone who differs from both of us, he will
be equally unable to decide between us, since he differs from both of us.
And if I ask someone who agrees with both of us, he will be equally unable to
decide between us, since he agrees with both of us. "

In other words, we're all screwed.

Thanks for the weblog -- I really enjoy it.

Great comment, Kevin. I respect Dave Winer, and his point is well taken. Ever since the election, I've felt there's been a tectonic shift in the way America operates. It's almost as though there was a putsch, as if a US version of the Gang of Four grabbed control. Luckily though, there's evidence that America still works. I read with joy yesterday how the courts are rejecting Bush's policy on the Guantanamo bay prisoners, a policy that epitomized the collapse of our supposed unalienable rights.

Absolutely right on the new freedoms in China, and they aer increasing. The only area where it's as repressive as the old days is politics. When I read of young people being sentenced to 10 years in prison for posting an essay on the Internet or for blowing the whistle on corrupt officials, I literally feel sick, and wonder why there isn't more of an outcry against the hypocrisy of placing sanctions on Cuba and not China.

Damn Right ! Point well made!

All emerging economic powers made sure they hosted the Olympics as sign of their new-found status and stature.

Japan, S. Korea and now, China..

For myself, I would prefer Freedom and Civil rights, Democracy, Secularism -Separation of church and state and all those little laws that make Judiciary exert independence, press effectively playing the 4th estate.... Over extravagant Economic riches.

A more ready analogy - although obviously flawed - would be to compare how Russia and China have fared with their experiments at openness. Chinese take a long view and also expect great changes in the natural course of things, and there is the 'face' issue, which I imagine would make the CCP want to adapt and survive rather than ossify and perish. In some unfinished dream-vision of this the CCP becomes 'China' and elections within the CCP are as free and diverse as anywhere else. This might require a re-thinking of the nation state, but that seems to be a trend all over the world.
[Only just found the site, hence the year-late reply]

Paul, thanks for the comment. About the worldwide trend toward free elections -- I believe the trend exists, but see no evidence it has taken any hold whatever in China. At least not yet.

Thanks for caring about China. I am one of those who live here.

That's a very good article Richard.

I wanted to vomit at first, but thankfully I kept reading.

I enjoy hearing and reading from those who see things in such a way because some, including myself, tend to get caught up on the negative aspects of China and that's unfortunate.

I'm trying to take a more positive view of China with regards to how her emergence on the world stage will affect the global community, but progress is slow.

I may disagree with you at the most fundamental levels on domestic politics, but I like your open views on China.

Keep it up.

Gordon

Richard, an excellent piece on an excellent site.

My eyes poped with delighted amazement at the twist at the end.