Admit it. You paid someone to carry that.

April 3, 2005 @ 11:51 am | Comment

Why are these people carrying signs in English for a protest in Taipei against Beijing?

April 3, 2005 @ 1:52 pm | Comment

Hui Mao, they probably did it to get picked up in the English-language media.

April 3, 2005 @ 2:38 pm | Comment

hehe, perhaps they think mainland chinese speak english better than chinese 🙂

this is a political show to their english-speaking “step-father”

April 3, 2005 @ 5:01 pm | Comment

There were plenty of Chinese language signs at the Taiwan protest, so it is hard to understand some of comments here, except to say the writers maybe jealous about their freedom in Taiwan or you worry that this kind of activity is another step toward full freedom and independence. The experience in Taiwan with democracy (and for that matter in HK) is putting to the lie PRC’s obcessive concern about “social stablility” as an issue of not allowing the people to speak out and of criticise the Chinese government, the CCP and the leaders.

Some of you here do not have any experience in democracy as most other mainland Chinese don’t, so you can’t really know first hand of the fire and passion it can generate in the souls of people to take it, to hold it, use it and to defend it for the good of the public and a country. It is not something that a wise person would criticise or put down, especially if what is offered instead is group-think, a follow orders or else life, autocratic or totalitarian rule.

It is ironic the KMT leaders are now kowtow to BJ and making fools of themselves to get on the good side of BJ after KTM has lost the controling power of Taiwan. Maybe this is a lesson in unintended consequences.

BTW, let me ask a few quetions those of you mainlanders who support BJ’s actions to get Taiwan back under its control no matter what cost. Do you ever criticise your country, the national government, the CCP or the leaders openly and/or in public? If no, ask yourselves why not?

April 4, 2005 @ 12:32 am | Comment

“BTW, let me ask a few quetions those of you mainlanders who support BJ’s actions to get Taiwan back under its control no matter what cost. Do you ever criticise your country, the national government, the CCP or the leaders openly and/or in public? If no, ask yourselves why not?”

relax pete

i don’t see any logic in your question. do you mean china should not listen to the US human rights report just because US doesn’t have a perfect human rights record itself?

why chinese can not support the reunification of chinese nation just because CCP is in power? they are two different matters.

it is a fact that the taiwan seccessionists are backed by US right wings, no value judgement here, just a pure fact

April 4, 2005 @ 12:53 am | Comment

“it is a fact that the taiwan seccessionists are backed by US right wings, no value judgement here, just a pure fact”

Really? Check the condemnations of China’s anti-secession law from the US congress. You will find that members of both parties from across the political spectrum overwhelmingly condemned the law.

And his question is perfectly understandable…unless you choose not to understand it.

The implication is clear. In Taiwan, we can say what we want. In China, you can’t.

A side note:

See that building in the background of the picture? That is the KMT headquarters. They used to have as much grip on power here as the CCP does in Beijing. Now I challenge any of you mainlanders to go gather a few hundred thousand people to march in front of the CCP headquarters…or anyplace else in Beijing.

Have fun.

April 4, 2005 @ 5:32 am | Comment

bingfeng
Thomas provides a fine answer to your question.

However, see if you can really grasp what it means to have liberty to say what your beliefs are in public without the fear, concern or worry you might get arrested.

April 4, 2005 @ 9:15 am | Comment

this is really funny.

i just point out that english sign shows taiwan secessionists are backed by english-speaking “step-father”

then pete and thomas come to me very upset and excited telling me – “In Taiwan, we can say what we want. In China, you can’t. ”

it seems to me you guys always grasp this “we are free, you are not” straw when you are presented with some facts you don’t like to see.

yes, you have free speech and we don’t, NOW, what the hell is that related with english signs and english-speaking “step-father”?

i got it:

A: taiwan KMT visited mainland
B: we are free, you are not!

A: there are “tyranny of the majority” in the infant taiwan democracy
B: we are free, you are not!

A: china should re-united
B: we are free, you are not!

A: i had a “cattle shit” ice cream tonight
B: we are free, you are not!

totally confused

April 4, 2005 @ 9:38 am | Comment

“it is a fact that the taiwan seccessionists are backed by US right wings, no value judgement here, just a pure fact”

Really? Check the condemnations of China’s anti-secession law from the US congress. You will find that members of both parties from across the political spectrum overwhelmingly condemned the law. ”

Thomas,

Condemnation of the Anti-secession law does not mean they support Taiwan independence.

April 4, 2005 @ 11:52 am | Comment

Sunday,March 27 I found myself in a small Taipei alley staring at a wall*.It was an old wall,a wall of sadness.It was in front of this wall that many victims of the KMT regime had fallen to the executioner’s bullet.Somehow this place seemed the right place to be before heading to the station ,and home to Douliou, at the end of a very special weekend.

The beauty of 326 was the feeling of being part of the Human Race.On this day you became Taiwanese not by right of birth ,but by your love for the Country. I felt the special feeling of Democratic Freedom that I have only felt once before ,and that was while standing in line to vote in South Africa on Freedom Day,April 27,1994.

The Flags and Banners of a Democratic Taiwan were paraded through the streets of Taipei for the world to see>.The people of Taiwan united against the Chinese aggressor.The family of a Free and Democratic Taiwan had spoken.As I sat on the train going home,I sensed that the ghosts at the wall were smiling ,and Lai Ho was clapping his hands in delight,the children of Taiwan had remembered the Yellow Tiger Flag# and more.

Mark

*(One of the 2 remaining walls at the site of the Old Taipei Prison on Ai-Guo.E.RD.Taipei)

>(That’s why there were signs in Mandarin,English,Dutch,German,French,Japanese and other languages)

#(Flag of the 1895 Formosa Republic and Lai Ho’s poem “Yellow Tiger Flag”)

April 4, 2005 @ 9:00 pm | Comment

i just point out that english sign shows taiwan secessionists are backed by english-speaking “step-father”

then pete and thomas come to me very upset and excited telling me – “In Taiwan, we can say what we want. In China, you can’t. “

Er, no. This is a conversation about a demonstration in Taiwan – nitpicking about one english sign seems more off-topic to me.

Di it occur to you that what is on that sign is a pun in english that won’t translate into chinese ? And that, maybe, some Taiwanese want the rest of the world to know what they are unhappy about ?

April 4, 2005 @ 10:12 pm | Comment

My initial question was meant to be rhetorical. I was trying to point out that this protest was very much a carefully orchestrated show designed for the benefit of world opinion. Not sure how this became a discussion about democracy and freedom of speech. You don’t really need democracy and freedom of speech to attend a government sponsored march.

April 4, 2005 @ 11:09 pm | Comment

Hui Mao,

When you live under a democratically elected government and you are faced with a foreign government who feels it necessary to pass laws to go to war with you,you find that the common people don’t need much government orchestrating to get together peacefully to show the world that they object to this aggression.After all it would be naive to think you can threaten the lives of 23 million people and not get some type of spontaneous reaction ,and that those same people wouldn’t want to tell the world that they don’t like what was happening to them.

Mark

April 4, 2005 @ 11:40 pm | Comment

Nicholas,

No,I didn’t pay anyone to carry that sign so I could create a picture,patriotism and a love of freedom are great motivators too!

Mark

April 5, 2005 @ 2:15 am | Comment

I guess I should own up as the guilty party:)

http://forumosa.com/taiwan/viewtopic.php?p=316405&highlight=#316405

That poster (and a few others) is a result of a request for suggestions from English speakers on a website for expats in Taiwan … and in particular a suggestion from someone who reads this website. Sorry to disappoint those who were hoping/expecting it to be the result of some evil anti-PRC Republican think-tank …

April 5, 2005 @ 7:41 am | Comment

David, very creative. Thanks for clearing that up. Some people here love conspiracy theories.

Emile, good point. It is, of course, a funny play on words that can’t really be translated.

April 5, 2005 @ 8:07 am | Comment

“Some people here love conspiracy theories”

richard, it’s not “conspiracy theories”, it’s everything-is-CCP-fault theory, or “tiger’s eyes” theory:

some people just got this “tiger’s eyes” mentality, in which everything in this world is meat or non-meat

as for the english sign, everybody in this planet knows that taiwan secessionists are backed by american right wings, they are not evil, they are just normal persons who manipulate taiwan to get advantages for US national interests, quite understandable.

btw, i know “we are free, you are not”. i always keep this in my mind, so no need to say it again and again in irrelevent topics.

April 5, 2005 @ 7:48 pm | Comment

These “think of the long term” scholars have been shouted down as Jap
lovers and traitors. Not very encouraging.

Nor is it very surprising.

Bingfeng, on your comment: I don’t think anyone said “everything is the CCP’s fault.” It’s just that they do little or nothing to discourage this hatred, while they will go to any conceivable length to silence passionate arguments on things that threaten them — little things, like freedom, rule of law and accountability.

Again, I criticize Bush just as much as I criticize the CCP. And I often add to my comments that the CCP is at least getting better, something I can’t say about Bush.

April 5, 2005 @ 8:16 pm | Comment

as for the english sign, everybody in this planet knows that taiwan secessionists are backed by american right wings, they are not evil, they are just normal persons who manipulate taiwan to get advantages for US national interests, quite understandable.

bingfeng

How much the American Right Wing backs “the Taiwan Secessionists”I can’t say.I’m not American.Do I believe that the sign was an American Right Wing plot?No!David told us the story.I don’t know David.At the protest I saw the sign and took the photo.

I have a challenge for you.There are two sides in this conflict,thus two points of view.I come from South Africa.South Africa has quite a history in the last decade of telling the U.S.A.to mind its own business,so we are not great American lovers.South Africa understands the evils of colonialism and imperialism.The country is under a part communist government.In the old South Africa we called those that apposed the then government all kinds of names to dehumanise them,the most common being communist terrorists.Well one day they came to power and we had to acknowledge them as people,our people.Now don’t get me wrong.I’m not trying to draw political parallels except for one.I challenge you to stop using the term”Taiwan Secessionists” and replace it with “the people of Taiwan”,give them a human face ,and have the courage to say we must talk,talk without pointing a gun to their head.

Mark

April 5, 2005 @ 11:26 pm | Comment

Mark,

if you visit the 3-26 photo album in flickr, you will find some pic like “f**k china”.

“I challenge you to stop using the term”Taiwan Secessionists” and replace it with “the people of Taiwan””

why should i use “the people of Taiwan” to refer to those secessionists when they are only a part of “the people of Taiwan”?

give me a reason.

should i say “f**k japan” instead of “f**k japan war criminals”?

should i say “f**k south african” instead of “f**k south african racists”?

shoud i say “f**k arab” instead of “f**k terrorists”?

April 6, 2005 @ 12:23 am | Comment

“give them a human face”

i am not sure how much you know taiwan.

before 1980s, both sides demonise each other.

after taiwan secessionists took power, they did a lot to demonize mainland china. as a matter of fact, any one who suggests to develop a relationship with mainland will be called as a “mai tai” (selling taiwan out, a traitor).

i think you should talk with chen shui-bian government first to “give a human face” to mainland china.

but anyway, thanks for your interest and care for human dignity in the taiwan issue.

April 6, 2005 @ 12:29 am | Comment

“Again, I criticize Bush just as much as I criticize the CCP. And I often add to my comments that the CCP is at least getting better, something I can’t say about Bush”

even you don’t like GW or even GW government has a lot of faults, i can’t see any reason to say everything is GW’s fault.

i see many people have this type of “way of thinking”, as soon as they find something wrong with china, the first thing they will do is “hey guys, let’s see how to connect that with CCP”.

April 6, 2005 @ 12:37 am | Comment

But you know something, Bing? Considering the CCP’s history of fucking literally everything up between 1958 and 1977, it shouldn’t be surprsing that people react this way. So many of China’s problems can be linked to the CCP, because it was such an intrusive government. Much better now, of course, but their track record leaves them vulnerable.

April 6, 2005 @ 7:50 am | Comment

Bingfeng,

Not nice signs.I saw one group with them.Sadly most of those signs were carried by foreigners.I saw the signs and took some pictures.I saw another sign that said”Make Love,Make Money,Make Tofu,Not WAR!”There were not many f**k signs actually.That’s just my own observation at the protest.

As a EX F**king South African Racist,I would suggest coming to terms with the fact that not everyone loves the CCP,don’t justify your prejudice with some photos of a F**K sign.The fact remains that that “part” of the Taiwanese people that you feel the need to call secessionists ,is probably the majority.As for what you say about Chen,I don’t buy it.I read the Taiwanese papers daily,I live in Taiwan and watch the news.I read the Chinese papers on line and what comes out of those shocks me!

Remember you can still try to keep your dignity when all those around you are trying to dehumanise each other.

Cheers

Mark

April 6, 2005 @ 8:57 am | Comment

bingfeng
You seem to be in denial as you feel the need to defend some of the worst aspects of the CCP. Why bother. If you don’t mind the difference between what your consitution actual says and what the CCP allows and the government enfores in contradiction to your consitution just say so. We foreigners, can all live with that; it is you, your countrypeople and your nation that are harmed. But to say don’t beat me over the head with “we are free” point is wrong for two reasons. One, I do not think it is directed at you exclusively and two, new readers probably come here all the time and might find it useful to know what has gone on before.

April 6, 2005 @ 11:02 pm | Comment