Daily linklets 4th May

What’s in this year: black, jeans, polio. Close encounters of the Chinese kind. Strapped for ideas for Mother’s Day? Why not rent out the kids for a day? Philippine rebels are complaining China isn’t Maoist anymore. They should take China’s big hint. …

May 3, 2005 @ 7:06 pm | Comment

Thanks for the link. Interesting read.

May 4, 2005 @ 3:45 am | Comment

It is incorrect to use the word rat in Chinese as an example, even though “shu” means rat by itself, the two words “lao shu” form a basic Chinese vocabulary. Another example is “lao shi” meaning teacher, you don’t point a teacher and call it a “shi” just like you don’t call a rat a “shu” in common Chinese usage, even shi and shu having the meaning of the word.

Old or little in front of a person’s last name is generally a term of endearment in Chinese. Just ask any Chinese. Laowai as an expression of affection and respect still stands.

May 4, 2005 @ 9:41 am | Comment

I couldn’t post something at the link, so I’ll do it here. I thought the linked article was at once a bit precious and probably more confusing than helpful to readers.

I think Wikopedia is exactly right and the original post is mostly off the mark. It’s true that the ÀÏ need not imply respect, and often implies a familiarity. There’s a story about some Emperor or other who overheard his presumably slightly younger friends referring to him as ÀÏ X, and took offense. His friend pointed out the number of cases where that was associated with honor and respect, including notable ÀÏ×Ó, usually represented as Laotse, the founder of Daoism.

To the extent that we understand compound words by analogy, and clearly we do, the ÀÏ in ÀÏÍâ either means nothing, either way ( or has positive and respectful associations (ÀϱÁ – experienced persion, À쵆 – a very polite term for a kid,Àϼ¸-seniority) or implies familiarity (ÀÏ°ÙÐÕ — ordinary people, ÀÏ°Ö — dad, ÀÏ°é — “better half”, etc.). Or I supposed you could take it to mean old-fashioned (ÀÏ°Ë¹É — same old stuff, ÀÏ°å°å – old-fashioned, Àϰ˱²×Ó, also old-fashioned).

So it’s not really wrong to say that it’s respectful, although it’s probably best to just treat is equalling “foreigner,” with no surplus meaning beyond the ample surplus meaning that word has in any language. Americans don’t like any class terms used to refer to people, particularly themselves, so it feels strange.

May 4, 2005 @ 10:22 am | Comment

It is difficult getting used to calling elderly or your friend’s parents their first names here in America. We always call people MR MRS. I heard young people call their parent by their first names. It is extremely rude to do so in Chinese culture.

May 4, 2005 @ 10:43 am | Comment

JR:

It is incorrect to use the word rat in Chinese as an example, even though “shu” means rat by itself, the two words “lao shu” form a basic Chinese vocabulary.

I use the laoshu and laobaixing to demonstrate that lao doesn’t always mean “old” and imply “respect” when used as a prefix, which is the case with laowai. How is that incorrect?

Old or little in front of a person’s last name is generally a term of endearment in Chinese. Just ask any Chinese. Laowai as an expression of affection and respect still stands.

Ha ha. “Generally” is the key word in your first sentence and you can’t even call my “Lao Jiang” counterexample an exception. Worse still, your last sentence is an outright non sequitor. It is, of course, also wrong. Just ask any Chinese (nine of them, in fact).

Kevin:

I think Wikopedia is exactly right and the original post is mostly off the mark. It’s true that the ÀÏ need not imply respect, and often implies a familiarity. There’s a story about some Emperor or other who overheard his presumably slightly younger friends referring to him as ÀÏ X, and took offense. His friend pointed out the number of cases where that was associated with honor and respect, including notable ÀÏ×Ó, usually represented as Laotse, the founder of Daoism.

If you follow the link above, you’ll find the story that (I think) you’re referring to. It makes my argument rather than Kevin’s.

The Chinese characters Kevin posted in the next paragraph don’t render correctly on my computer, so I can’t be sure. But I’d like point out that my Beijing friends view laogong and laopo as terribly loutish words for husband and wife. Laoban is much better, but still seems to me to be just neutral and very colloquial. It doesn’t convey respect and formality the way “better half” does (where’s the “better” in that, by the way? Lao?)

To sum it up: In many words lao doesn’t mean old or imply respect. laowai is one such word.

May 4, 2005 @ 12:53 pm | Comment

Tom,

“I use the laoshu and laobaixing to demonstrate that lao doesn’t always mean “old” and imply “respect” when used as a prefix, which is the case with laowai. How is that incorrect?”

Laobaoxing is actually another term of endearment, refering to (our)people.

“haha”, “worsestill” these kinds of antic won’t help your argument.

“Generally” because it is not absolute. HOWEVER, laowai, laobaoxing, or old neighbors in Chinese are all in the same category of showing respect and kinship.

May 4, 2005 @ 1:40 pm | Comment

Tom,

“your last sentence is an outright non sequitor. It is, of course, also wrong.”

I think you are confused with meaning of the word laowai, and the intention of the user. Any polite word can be turned around and used in a derogatory manner, just like when someone says “honey,” “sorry” or “thank you very much” in a condescending manner. Likewise, negative words can become neutral like the word “gweilo” in Hong Kong or “nigger” used amongst black people themselves. It all depends on the connotation and intention of the speaker.

May 4, 2005 @ 2:19 pm | Comment

I’ve said lao is not an absolute term implying respect. Calling elderly lao kutong (old antique) in Chinese is to refer to one’s senility and conservatism.

May 4, 2005 @ 2:34 pm | Comment

Note: Conservative is a bad word in China but a good word in America.

May 4, 2005 @ 2:40 pm | Comment

do you mean laogudong? The expression is rather redundant is it not? How can gudong (antique) be anythingelse but lao (old)?

May 4, 2005 @ 5:54 pm | Comment

During the Civil War, Communist propaganda always used to refer to Jiang Jieshi as “lao jiang”. I don’t think they used lao as a mark of respect!
But you don’t need to argue etomology to know whether “lao wai” is respectful or not. Just listen to the way people say it- how often does it sound respectful to you?

May 4, 2005 @ 6:20 pm | Comment

JR,

I don’t think you can fairly make the assertion that “gweilo” is a neutral term. A lot of long term Hong Kong expats that I know take offense to the term. And though I would say most Cantonese speakers don’t use the word maliciously, it’s definitely in no circumstances respectful.

And I’m from a Blue state. “conservative” is a fighting word in this stretch of America. 🙂

May 4, 2005 @ 7:08 pm | Comment

I speak Chinese at a “conversational” level, and from my experience “laowai” (and also “waiguoren”) are usually used in a neutral or positive manner.

It’s interesting to note that there are also problems with “foreigner” in English. I often warn my students that it may be all right to call someone a “laowai” in Chinese, but calling someone a “foreigner” in English may be a little impolite.

In English we usually identify an “extra-national” by their country of origin or their race (e.g. “I have a German friend.”, or “She’s sitting next to that Asian woman.” ).

In common English “foreigner” often has connotations of “outsider who doesn’t belong here” (e.g. “Keep those foreigners out of our country!”). “Foreign” can have similar negative connotations (e.g. a “foreign object” is something that doesn’t belong there).

Sometimes “foreigner” has a neutral meaning, when it is used to mean “all people from any country but this one” (e.g. “Foreigners often get lost at our city’s airport”).

So, I guess we should be happier if Chinese refer to us as “laowai” than as “foreigners”. 🙂

May 4, 2005 @ 9:35 pm | Comment

Two additional perspectives:

1. Other 老 words: 老千 conman; 老财 moneybags; 老粗 uneducated person; 老狐狸 scoundrel; 老奸巨猾 wily old fox; 老顽固 old fogey

Are these terms of respect? Probably the furthest you could go is to say that 老 is a neutral colloquial term – 老公 (neutral tone on 公) is a colloquialism for 太监, for example; 老江 refers to Jiang Zemin (or Jiang Jieshi, depending on the era) irreverently.

2. Native speakers’ impressions: Many times in talking with native Chinese speakers here (both in English and Chinese), they’ll refer to someone as 老外 and then hesitate, and ask me if I mind the term.

When biking through the city, getting cut off or cutting people off is not a rare occurrence; on several occasions other bikers have felt that it was my fault – they shouted a warning to avoid a crash, and then passed me, muttering “老外”. Statement of fact? Respectful greeting?

Direct address is probably disrespectful (like any other general neutral term used to address an individual, whether in Chinese or in English. Terms of respect or endearment don’t have this limitation). Indirect reference is most likely just casual irreverence, which is fine, since there is no need for reverence.

Convincing people that the term is neutral rather than derogatory is probably sufficient, but pretending that it is respectful or endearing is engaging in a linguistic fiction.

May 4, 2005 @ 10:12 pm | Comment

JR,

Old or little in front of a person’s last name is generally a term of endearment in Chinese. Just ask any Chinese. Laowai as an expression of affection and respect still stands.

This is a non sequitor because even if you can show your premise (first sentence) to be absolutely always true (which I contend it isn’t), your conclusion still doesn’t follow for the obvious fact that wai is not a last name. What’s more, endearment isn’t the same thing as respect.

Still, I shouldn’t have said “ha ha”. Sorry.

I think you are confused with meaning of the word laowai, and the intention of the user. Any polite word can be turned around and used in a derogatory manner, just like when someone says “honey,” “sorry” or “thank you very much” in a condescending manner. Likewise, negative words can become neutral like the word “gweilo” in Hong Kong or “nigger” used amongst black people themselves. It all depends on the connotation and intention of the speaker.

I don’t think I’m confused. It’s just that laowai belongs in the latter group. No, it’s never sounded nearly as bad as gweilo (let alone nigger). One could argue that it now doesn’t sound bad at all (something I did touch upon in my original post). What irks me infinitely more than the word itself is the misrepresentation of it (by foreigners, not Chinese) as a term of respect.

Ultimately, it comes down to what you think determines a word’s meaning. Some flimsy theory about a prefix that isn’t even consistent, or the way people actually use it? (And no, they were not being ironic when they point you out to their friends.)

May 4, 2005 @ 10:50 pm | Comment

Tom,

Thank you, prefix is a good word.

Zhwj,

The meaning of lao changes when lao is used as a prefix for someone’s last name or title, from being old to imply someone of familiarity or kinship or affection or respect. For example, (Lao pao) old wife, (lao kung) old husband, old father, old mother….
AND LAOWAI falls into this category, am I wrong?

“Other ÀÏ words: ÀÏǧ conman; ÀÏ²Æ moneybags; ÀÏ´Ö uneducated person; ÀϺüÀê scoundrel; Àϼé¾Þ»« wily old fox; ÀÏÍç¹Ì old fogey.”

I did NOT say lao imply exclusively to terms of endearment or respect or affection. There are exceptions. And Laowai did not fall into this category.

As for the Chinese hesitant to call you laowai, the Chinese might think you would think it was a derogatory term. If he think laowai is a bad word, why would he ask if you mind?

“pretending that it is respectful or endearing is engaging in a linguistic fiction.”

The origin of the word is positive. Can we focus on debating that? Again, it’s the way one uses it and how others perceive it make it a seem like a negative word. That’s what I said a negative connotation.

May 5, 2005 @ 12:09 am | Comment

Breaking out the dictionary: 《应用汉语词典》(2000年), published by the venerable Commercial Press, says: “老外…(2)称外国人(现在外国人自己也称自己为“老外”,所以已经不含轻蔑意,而是一种诙谐的用法了)
The parts I’ve emphasized imply (1) in the past the term had a disdainful flavor to it, although it doesn’t now, and (2) it’s more jocular or familiar now.

Certainly one can’t prove anything through the use of a dictionary, but at least this demonstrates that it’s not just a few uninformed people blowing smoke over this. It very well may be that the true origins of the word may never be discovered, but it seems premature to claim that an original “respectful” meaning should be obvious.

And remember the other usage of 老外: 外行, or one who is not a member of a certain profession or group.

May 5, 2005 @ 2:59 am | Comment

Seems like the thrust of this thread is in general 老外 is not a deragtory term. But depending on the context, it can be. When I was learning Chinese in college my teacher releated this anecdote (don’t know if it is true or not). Two Chinese women are walking down an American street talking in Mandarin. There is a man walking a few paces in front of them.

Woman 1 says to woman 2: ”你看那个臭老外“ (look at that stinky foreigner)

Unbeknownst to the women the (white) man understands Chinese. He wheels around and says to them: “在美国你们才是老外！“ (In America,you are the foreigners!).

Of course this brings up anther point: Even in another country, do Chinese (whether naturalized or just visiting) always see the citizens of that country as 老外? My spouse is always talking about “你们美国人“when discussing points of American culture she doesn’t agree with. I remind her she is 美国人now also. Is this a cultural mindset unique to Chinese?

May 5, 2005 @ 1:35 pm | Comment

I’m not qualified to offer an expert opinion. All I can say is that I used to cringe when kids on the subway or the street would shout out “Laowai!” to their mother when they saw me. From what I picked up, the closest word we have for it in English (at least in terms of the way it is used) is “Outsider.” And that is in no way a term of respect. It says you are different, apart and somewhere you don’t naturally belong.

May 5, 2005 @ 3:38 pm | Comment

I’m afraid I’ve entered the conversation a bit too late, but I can’t help pointing out that I feel there is nothing formal or respectful in using the jocular expression “better half” to refer to a person’s partner.

May 9, 2005 @ 10:27 am | Comment

I do think Laowai is a term of endearment. But sometimes it’s neutral too. If Chinese hate a foreiner, they’d call them”Guizi” 鬼子, not Laowai。 Guizi is usually used for Japanese, but if an American is notorious, we’d call him Guizi too. LOL

May 14, 2005 @ 12:52 am | Comment

Laowai Anecdote

The day after posting a link to the great laowai debate, I had an interesting conversation with a co-worker. It was the kind of thing I would probably not have paid much attention to were the matter not already on my mind. My co-worker is in her late t…

May 17, 2005 @ 9:15 am | Comment

Lao is not always positive and is frequently negative.

I’ve had many Chinese tell me it’s negative and their embarassment at haveing used when they find out you speak Chinese is proof.

May 18, 2005 @ 9:39 am | Comment

Most of the mistranslations/mininterpretations surrounding the word laowai are cultural in origin. I think most of the laowai who think the word has a negative connotation are thinking in English in an American (or at least Western) context. The word “foreigner” in English is tainted — and it is considered rude to point out that someone is foreign or an outsider in American culture. So plenty of laowai bring this cultural/linguistic baggage into a Chinese context — where it doesn’t belong. When the term laowai actually is used in a negative way, it is the context or tone, not something inherent in the word itself.

Most Chinese have never even seen a foreigner in person. Few have spoken to one – ever. Is it surprising that they would notice the fact that you are foreign — and marvel and gape at you? If you grow up in a country where you deal with foreigners everyday of your life with strict PC codes for who should be called what, do you really expect a country that is over 90% ethnically (much less racially) homogenous to have this same PC midset?

As richard said, I think most Westerners bristle at the simple fact that their ‘foreigness’ is being pointed out. If Chinese called foreigners “great superhuman champions,” you would still have offended laowai running around arguing that “great superhuman champions” isn’t a term of respect, etc.

May 20, 2005 @ 2:07 am | Comment

not bad

June 14, 2006 @ 5:51 am | Comment