according to the Guardian:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/editor/story/0,,1508258,00.html
Beau Monday (BMonday.com) thought Chinese bloggers would have little difficulty circumventing the portal restrictions, “even if they have to use the word ‘cabbage’ when they mean ‘democracy’. No democratic movement … has ever stalled just because the word ‘democracy’ could not be uttered.”

i couldn’t agree more. for many years, when Brazil was under a military dictatorship, a certain newspaper reported conditions in the country always substituted “Brazilian generals” with the “Greek colonels”. Everybody in the world knew what they were referring to — the media, the people, and even the cesnors except for those generals.

so it is that i don’t that this can ever be stopped.

June 17, 2005 @ 12:46 pm | Comment

while i don’t feel a thing about the primary event, the meta-event about how microsoft handled the blowback stinks, as in danwei:
http://www.danwei.org/archives/001813.html

June 17, 2005 @ 1:10 pm | Comment

For those readers that are not familiar with Chinese Pinyin, the term “min3 zhu2 zi4 you2” means “[ethnic] independence”.

June 17, 2005 @ 2:15 pm | Comment

Shouldn’t that be min2 zu3?

June 17, 2005 @ 2:24 pm | Comment

eswn thank you for leading me to that site danwei.org. There is another article there (http://www.danwei.org/archives/001812.html) about the Microsoft issue, where danwei writes, “There are a lot of earnest people in the USA and UK complaining about Microsoft’s complicity with an evil regime etc.

But what about in China itself, inside the clammy embrace of the Nanny?

Nada.

It appears that nobody here gives a shit.”

To me I think this is a very foolish. If people in China do give a shit, what could they do to let others know they give a shit? Can they write a newspaper article? Can they set up a website to complain? Can they hold a demonstration, maybe meet in Tienanmen Square? I am frustrated because this argument is so stupid, to say no one cares about something in China only because you don’t hear about it in the major media or from the people you talk to. Of course you don’t hear, it is an authoritarative state!

June 17, 2005 @ 2:41 pm | Comment

Mark

You’re right, you’re exactly right.

…….and this is exactly where a lot of China-watchers (I didn’t say apologists) fall flat on their faces.

Many times I have read and listened to foreigners who say things along the lines of ‘the Chinese are happy because I don’t hear them complaining’.

Ok, sure, I’m being very simplistic here but I’m trying to make 2 points:

1- prc Chinese risk a lot if they do wander off from the rest of the herd and also they are brought up within their known parameters.

2- explaining for example freedom of whatever to a prc Chinese is like explaining rocket science to a fish. They have never known it and therefore don’t REALLY know what it is and what it means.

Remember that Chinese official during the Hong Kong democracy march period who was mobbed by cameramen and reporters and angrily accused them all of violating his human rights when walking out of a hotel?

No idea, no idea.

June 17, 2005 @ 2:53 pm | Comment

I’ve just read the danwei article and I think he let’s himself down badly with that Nada remark.

June 17, 2005 @ 2:54 pm | Comment

For the record, danwei is one of my favorite sites on the entire Internet. Jeremy, who wrote the post, is very well connected in beijing and maybe he based his observation on something more than the lack of media coverage, I don’t know.

Either way, your points about the Chinese psyche are excellent, Allan.

June 17, 2005 @ 3:05 pm | Comment

Of course Richard, no disrespect intended to Danwei.

I’ve never read the site before but I just had a quick flick and will certainly go back again.

Hey, I only started reading Peking Duck last week!

June 17, 2005 @ 3:09 pm | Comment

Allan, no worries, I know you didn’t mean disrespect. I was just trying to say that maybe he had a reason for his observation…trying to give a friend the benefit of the doubt.

June 17, 2005 @ 3:11 pm | Comment

i actually had the same idea as danwei.

in a more genral sense, the question is: what do chinese people look for when they get on the internet? i cannot tell you what i actually know since that information is proprietary, but let me give you a common estimate:

– less than 0.01% (note: i made this number up) is looking for ‘democracy’ and ‘freeom’ or some such when they get on the internet in china
– most of them are downloading BT movies and MP3s and guys especially are looking for pornography; or astrology, chat, qq, or whatever. but not on democracy/freedom. peking duck visitors may think otherwise, but they are a self-selected lot with respect to 100 million chinese netizens.

what do they care about the MSN restrictions? NADA. Danwei is quite right.

in this sense, the real issue is NOT about what MSN is doing; the real question is, “Why is only 0.01% (and you have to prove to me whether this ought to be 1% or 5% or 50%) of the chinese people interested in democracy/freedom?” If you cannot figure out the answer, nothing else matters. there is no point in going after MSN, CISCO or whoever because that is not where the problem is. if 50% of the chinese netizens are intersted in freedom/democracy, they will overcome all these artificial barriers. but there is no evidence as such. they are too busy downing movies/MP3s or chatting.

June 17, 2005 @ 3:32 pm | Comment

But eswn it is not about what the Chinese people think of what microsoft is doing. Not about whether they search for freedom or democracy. It is about a major America company with strong moral principals bowing down to a corrupt CCP and makes a joke of its own ethical codes. It is an American issue really, not a Chinese issue. Chinese have known forever they are censored. But for freedom loving companies in America to sink down to China’s level, that is really what this is about. But also I think many in China really do care about freedom and right to vote. danwei makes it sounds like these are things of not much importance to Chinese. That is a lie. Maybe they are not talking about Microsoft Spaces, but many talk about freedom only very soft.

June 17, 2005 @ 3:38 pm | Comment

espn:

You are really missing the point here.

OF COURSE prc residents don’t search for democracy etc. they dare not for one and they care not for two because they have never known it.

Danwei is right to say Nada but he is not putting this particular Nada into any prc perspective and this is misleading.

Sure, ignore everything else and look at the cold, hard facts…and you are right…put it into it;s proper perspective and you and Danwei are way off the Mark (pun intended!).

June 17, 2005 @ 3:53 pm | Comment

Apols!

“ESWN” not espn.

June 17, 2005 @ 3:53 pm | Comment

Interesting discussion. Which side one takes will depend, I think, on how you view the CCP. And we all know where I stand on that topic…

June 17, 2005 @ 3:58 pm | Comment

but Allan, I wonder if there are have been other countries – eg the USSR – whose citizens lived under similar propaganda control and yet wanted democracy?

June 17, 2005 @ 4:02 pm | Comment

allan, i don’t even mean people explicitly searching for keywords like ‘democracy’ or ‘freedom.’ i mean people getting on internet evey evening to read banned websites such as boxun, chinamz, ncn, or whatever. they are a tiny minority, for the reason that they don’t touch the majority of the people in their lives. not a lot of people wake up each morning thinking about ‘freedom’ or ‘democracy’ anywhere in the world. this is a disconnect.

June 17, 2005 @ 4:28 pm | Comment

nobody here cares about these censored words not because they dare not or don’t have a place to complain, but because they consider these things irrelevant to their lives.

i may not agree with jeremy every time, but s/he is one of the guys i met on the web who knows chinese minds so well, i mean, not only those skin-deep “knowledge” about chinese, but also those psyche that usually unperceivable to most westerners.

for many chinese i know who are serious about democratization, they believe there are numerous ways to promote it besides chanting for less censorship on the web.

June 17, 2005 @ 4:29 pm | Comment

There are many ways to promote it, Bingfeng. Chanting for less censorship on the Web is just one of those ways.

I agree with you about Jeremy, and I link to him all the time. But the question of how you measure whether people are upset about something in an environment where it is very difficult to express that you’re upset — that’s an interesting question.

June 17, 2005 @ 4:34 pm | Comment

And Bingfeng, I want to emphasize again the point raised above, that it’s not at all surpriaing this story wouldn’t create a lot of buzz or controversy in China; it’s simply business as usual. It’s America where the indignation is. That’s why Rebecca MacKinnon, an old-time China Hand who covered China for CNN is writing so many pieces about this. It’s Americans who are outraged, not the Chinese.

June 17, 2005 @ 4:40 pm | Comment

the other issue here is – what are the goals for a company? there has been a debate since 1960s (?) i think, and one school argues that a company should fulfill its responsibility as a stake holder of the local community, country, etc.

my opinion is, the most important mission for a company is profit, and money-making is the best way to serve the local community, if a compromise has to be made for this ultimate purpose, then profit-seeking purpose should be kept while others sacrificed.

as a matter of fact, MSN space is the best way to promote democratization here since that provide a chance for young people to think independently and that is a basic trainning …. i think MS is much smater than most people think …

June 17, 2005 @ 4:46 pm | Comment

richard & bingfeng: this is the disconnect that i see. if the chinese don’t care and only the americans care about the MSN issue, then what is the REAL ISSUE that everybody ought to care about.

on one hand, if the chinese know, they are only saying in chinese bbs/forums and not telling the americans.

on the other hand, the american would rather stick to what they know (i.e. bashing Cisco or MSN) than actually dealing with this harder question.

what is it then? what really matters to the chinese? and whatever it is, what is its connection (if any) to western notions of freedom or democracy?

June 17, 2005 @ 4:46 pm | Comment

i see a fatal flaw of the “american mentality” here, americans are usually more inflexible in these “ideology” things and lose the chances to actually promote what they believe.

for example, you have two choices – censor these words and use MSN Space train young guys’ critical and independent thinking which are important in a civil society, OR, don’t compromise and let the MSN Space shut down.

the “american mentality” will prefer the second option, which in fact hinders its own pursuit.

i just wonder what should i call this type of “american mentality” – stupid or admirable?

June 17, 2005 @ 4:56 pm | Comment

the other thing i don’t understand is why MS censor these words, there are many chinese web sites in which people talk (actually chant) these words all day and nobody cares

June 17, 2005 @ 5:00 pm | Comment

Maybe there’s some confusion here, because there are different aspects of the argument. The outrage in this story isn’t so much the lack of freedom in China (nothing new there). It’s Microsoft lowering its standards to accommodate a censoring government. That’s what MacKinnon and so many others are furious about. Not what matters to the Chinese, but what maters to Microsoft.

what really matters to the chinese? and whatever it is, what is its connection (if any) to western notions of freedom or democracy?

I would have to say there is some connection. Many of the most heartbreaking stories I know from China involve people getting into terrible trouble for writing essays or sharing information about the topic of democracy. Do you remember the article about the study group I posted, where those students ended up in prison for 8 or 10 years simply for talking about democracy? Remember Du Daobin and Liu Di and so many others (42 cyberdissidents are in jail now in China, mainly for posting about democracy). Remember the students creating their Goddess of Democracy? It’s easy to say most Chinese don’t care and are happy as long as they can make money. But enough know their system is unjust and corrupt and want to see reform. Does this mean they should have Western-style democracy tomorrow? Probably not, at least not for a good time to come. But to say the Chinese people don’t care about freedom and democracy isn’t fair or accurate. A very close friend of mine in China is in constant pain at the limitations the government imposes on his life, be it his right to travel or his ability to apply for certain types of jobs. If you asked him, he might not say it’s freedom and/or democracy for which he longs, but that’s really what’s at the heart of it, for him and many others who know their government is not their friend. It’s why defectors leave China for democratic nations, not visa-versa.

June 17, 2005 @ 5:06 pm | Comment

the other thing i don’t understand is why MS censor these words, there
are many chinese web sites in which people talk (actually chant) these
words all day and nobody cares

Precisely, bingfeng!! Why did Microsoft do this? THAT is the big question, and that’s why the media have gone crazy with this subject.

June 17, 2005 @ 5:07 pm | Comment

i had a chance to listen to an advertising guy (from JWT) talking about the nationalism among chinese youngsters, his points are interesting, he believes the anti-japan sentiment among young people are irrelevant to japan, actually that is a way to overcome the “puberty frustration”

in my view, MSN case has nothing to do with china or democratization in china, it’s only a way to calm down the excessive love for these ideology pets for americans. sorry my words might be harsh.

June 17, 2005 @ 5:08 pm | Comment

for example, you have two choices – censor these words and use MSN Space train young guys’ critical and independent thinking which are important in a civil society, OR, don’t compromise and let the MSN Space shut down

But bingfeng, you just said that in China many sites allow these words and people shout them all day long. If this is true, MS should have fought for that same right, no?

June 17, 2005 @ 5:10 pm | Comment

richard,

not really, do you know that MSN Groups disappeared over night?

as a matter of fact, many MNCs in china do the same thing and their existence only enhances the democratization by introducing many of the elements and ideas that a civil society requires.

it seems to me that many are highjacked by anti-big-company sentiment again

June 17, 2005 @ 8:57 pm | Comment

China blocked all those communities like Yahoo Groups and MSN groups. Bastard CCP.

June 17, 2005 @ 9:00 pm | Comment

so why the hell american companys come to china to do business? all of them are hypocrites

i am just amazed by this type of “professor-style mentality”

June 17, 2005 @ 9:06 pm | Comment

-> for many chinese i know who are serious about democratization, they believe there are numerous ways to promote it besides chanting for less censorship on the web.

bingfeng – for example, what ways? (honest question)

->i just wonder what should i call this type of “american mentality” – stupid or admirable?

both. : )
I think many americans get stuck on idealogy. I think we also get stuck on instant gratification of said ideaologies. the chant isn’t just freedom, it’s freedom now. which, obviously, would be quite nice, theoretically. but as richard said, it’s probably not very realistic.

sometimes it boggles my mind that a (relatively speaking) small group has control over such an immense population. but I’m aware that that’s american thinking and not necessarily very applicable here.

June 17, 2005 @ 9:29 pm | Comment

->on one hand, if the chinese know, they are only saying in chinese bbs/forums and not telling the americans.

I can’t speak for the majority or even the minority, but I know some people get actively mad at me, saying ‘americans do not understand freedom’.

the sad truth is that many probably do not, given the amount of freedoms the majority in america has been willing to exchange lately for ‘safety’.

it’s been mentioned to me that the average chinese person probably has a much better idea of it than the average american *because* he’s never tasted it.

June 17, 2005 @ 9:32 pm | Comment

Echo, I agree that Americans have had to give up some freedoms under this president and I resent it deeply and complain loudly. Still, there is no comparison to China, I mean not even close. Those who are upset can take our government to court, and they do all the time, and often win. We never have to worry about arrest for criticizing the government.

it’s been mentioned to me that the average chinese person probably has a much better idea of it than the average american *because* he’s never tasted it.

I have to ask you what you mean by this, in a very friendly way, I promise. Why, by never tasting freedom, would a person have a better idea of what freedom is? If they never taste it, they don’t know what they are missing. I think many people in China do “taste” freedom through the pirated DVDs and the Internet and other media – they see what we have in the West and they often envy it. If they didn’t, why would they defect to the West and hire snakeheads and risk death to come here? But I don’t think ignorance of freedom makes people understand freedom better. If they were totally ignorant, as most were under Mao, when there was no exposure to the West at all, they would not know what we have and wouldn’t long for it.

June 17, 2005 @ 9:43 pm | Comment

richard, i agree.
but most stowaways are those who got money oriented other than freedom.

June 17, 2005 @ 10:18 pm | Comment

I love how Chinese people feel perfectly comfortable saying whatever the hell they please about America and “all Americans,” but when an American even so much as utters one word that is slightly critical of China, the American is a hypocrite, stupid, close-minded, “let himself down”, unrealistic, overly ideological, and does not understand freedom.

BEAM ME UP!!!!

June 17, 2005 @ 10:20 pm | Comment

friendly question, friendly answer.

->. Still, there is no comparison to China

then it’s a good thing I wasn’t comparing the two ; )

the ideas in that comment are not my own (with the exception of the ‘sad truth’ one), they are things that have been said to me. they were posted as a possible reason that some chinese people don’t like talking to americans about freedom.

I’m not sure I personally agree that not tasting freedom would necessarily mean understanding it better. but I think I understand the rationale.

in america we don’t have to fight for freedoms on a grand scale anymore. we fight individual things, single cases, but we no longer have to fight for the entire right (as many other countries have to). freedom can become something taken for granted.

which is I think what has happened, why some people allow some freedoms to be taken away. because on some level they don’t fully understand them anymore, or at least they don’t fully grasp what it means to be without them, if it doesn’t affect their daily life. if they did, they’d be fighting tooth and nail to keep them, and many aren’t.

from a chinese perspective, those that watch america as the majority lets go freedoms that they do not have and want terribly, it’s easy to see why they’d get annoyed at us.

June 17, 2005 @ 10:28 pm | Comment

->But I don’t think ignorance of freedom makes people understand freedom better. If they were totally ignorant, as most were under Mao, when there was no exposure to the West at all, they would not know what we have and wouldn’t long for it.

I think that understanding freedom can come when you are given something, promised something basic, necessary for life, and then it is taken away with no explination. I think it comes when you have to borrow money to send your child to a school that is, by law, free of charge. I think it comes when you are told to write a story about something, then are publically made to lose face for writing the story.

ie I don’t think anyone would need to have watched an american movie to understnad that these things aren’t right.

but then again I don’t think people were ignorant under mao. uninformed, certainly. but not all ignorant.

I think all humans have an inherent understanding of a lot of things. they might not be able to label the desire as a desire for freedom, but they’d know exactly what the desire felt like.

here’s a weird analogy…

if a bushman is run over by a truck, he doesn’t need to know what a truck is to understand that it can be very, very dangerous.

June 17, 2005 @ 10:29 pm | Comment

Matt
frankly, i actuaally think USA is better than China in some aspect, such as democrocy and econimics, but it’s far from perfect. and China also has its own attractions. as to me, i prefer europe, espiecally Scandinavia.

June 17, 2005 @ 10:35 pm | Comment

matt…we do it too. the exact same thing, actually.

we do it every time we say things like ‘I like chinese people.’ or “I love how Chinese people feel…”

none of us are going to change it, their behavior or ours. so might as well try to calmly explain how each person as an individual thinks. I like to think most people, whatever nationality or culture, tend to be able to see past their knee jerk reactions, given time.

June 17, 2005 @ 10:39 pm | Comment

Thanks echo, how is the view from way up high in the turrets of your moral castle?

June 18, 2005 @ 12:52 am | Comment

I’m leaning towards Allan and Mark’s above comments which state that it’s misleading to assume that just because Chinese don’t talk about or demand something such as ‘freedom’ then they don’t necessarily want or care about it.

The CCP has been quite deft I think at making itslef indistinguishable from China-the-nation. I.e. CCP is China, China is the CCP.

Hence the confusion some TPD commenters express when others say things like Chen Yongjin was a traitor only to the CCP not to China. To a lot of mainlanders a mouse could starve on the difference between the two.

Also, re relations with and images of the west, the CCP has gone to great lengths to create a wierd sort of juxtaposition where a lot of people both admire and despise the west, almost in equal parts.

The CCP go to great lengths to block, for example, things like the VOA. However, if a mainlander did stumble into listening to a VOA broadcast they’d likely treat it with a great deal of suspicion because of the conditioning in China.

Inevitably phrases like, ‘China-bashing’, ‘want to keep China down’, ‘rascist towards China’, might likely pop up.

Re, the one-way flow of people fleeing China to the west, as Henry says above, does have an economic element to it. After all, the Chinese have been able to spot a good bit of public administration for centuries.

I consider that a strong and stable economy and a rock-solid public administration (US/Europe) is also part of what motivates Chinese to go to the west.

June 18, 2005 @ 4:21 am | Comment

By the way, another example of the contradictory images of the west that I think we’ve all experienced:

At a dinner I attended not so long back, the managers of a large state company were talking about America being a paper tiger (that old chestnut) and how the US was inherently evil, hypotcritical, was making a huge mistake by interfering in Taiwan, was a morally-bankcrupt and rascist society that was especially rascist towards Chinese and wanted to keep China down.

After the three of them finished grimly nodding in agreement amongst themselves, I asked if any of them had been to the US/Europe.

Turns out they all had because two of them had sons studying long-term in California and the other had a daughter working in Vancouver, BC!

June 18, 2005 @ 4:30 am | Comment