Mine is better 😉 about dating in shanghai

http://www.siyansblog.blogspot.com

March 5, 2007 @ 10:27 pm | Comment

Hmmm. 30 seconds into that blog and I find the word “submissive” used in relation to “Chinese women”.
And then there’s “It’s not like the streets are exactly filled with good-looking, funny, socially adjusted Chinese men are they?”

Not exactly original, or interesting.

The first commenter’s blog, shopgirl, is much better.

March 5, 2007 @ 10:50 pm | Comment

How quaint. I can’t believe there are actually people living in China that believe Chinese women are submissive. It’s like these people live in a bubble and have no contact with real Chinese people or families.

March 5, 2007 @ 11:06 pm | Comment

>I can’t believe there are actually people living in China that believe Chinese women are submissive

I don’t want to replace one stereotype with another, but most of the Chinese women I have known — in my experience, anyway — have been ball-breakers. This submissive meme couldn’t be more wrong; some westerners seem to think modern China is feudal Japan.

**disclaimer** Of course, my wife isn’t a “ball-breaker.” Of course.

March 6, 2007 @ 2:09 am | Comment

88 – you are exactly correct. I’m married to one 🙂

March 6, 2007 @ 3:07 am | Comment

And then there’s “It’s not like the streets are exactly filled with good-looking, funny, socially adjusted Chinese men are they?”

Well, actually, she has a point. A stylish haircut and flattering clothes do cost money. Wandering along ordinary streets, I didn’t see too many hotties of either sex, but in the trendy shopping and entertainment areas that cater to the Chinese upper middle class and Western, Japanese, and Korean expats, there are lots of beautiful people to admire. The Chinese I met at expat gatherings were pleasant to look at and pleasant to talk to.

I read through a few of the entries on the blog; sometimes her stories made me nod and laugh, but mostly I was put off by too much bitching and negativity.

March 6, 2007 @ 6:37 am | Comment

Ah, what can I say? I loved it. Great find, Richard.

March 6, 2007 @ 9:09 am | Comment

i thought it was pretty accurate about the expat men (except me, naturally ;p i am lovely).

i think it is a bit of a cliche that chinese women are submissive, but then again submissive, conservative girls don’t tend to end up dating foreigners….

i remember several girls in my classes writing about their bfs and seemed to put up with shit that the average western girl perhaps (and i emphasize perhaps) wouldn’t – one girl said that her bf told her that he loved and thats why he needed to lie to her in order to avoid hurting her feelings. bizarrely, she accepted this.

perhaps she should avoid going to meat markets where the sweaty bald men hang out. i think that holds true for most countries.

March 6, 2007 @ 6:37 pm | Comment

I don’t hink “submissive” is the word, but let’s face it — in my experience, Chinese girls here often put up with much worse behavior from their partners (and we’re not even talking about philandering here) than US girls would.

Si – I agree about the meat markets, but then again, there are few enough bars in Beijing that AREN’T. I’ve got my regular places – or rather, place – but I guard it jealously against incursion. And it’s nowhere near Sanlitunr, which has to be the sleaziest block in the hemisphere.

March 7, 2007 @ 3:03 am | Comment

i can agree that dating prospects for laowai women in china are dismal — I was one for 2 years– but if you go to china expecting anything else, then you’re being silly.

‘china dirt’ content could potentially be carthartic and hilarious, but it just comes off as bitter, uninsightful, and unfunny. you can do better than that, girls.

March 7, 2007 @ 10:42 am | Comment

If there is a place in this blogosphere for (mostly male) expats to make efforts at humor by way of gross and often scathing generalizations about China, then there certainly ought to be a place for expat women to do the same cathartic yarn-spinning about expat men.

For fuck’s sake, people.

March 7, 2007 @ 3:17 pm | Comment

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=gulja+massacre

http://china.notspecial.org/archives/2007/02/10_years_later.html

yeah, everything is wonderful.

March 7, 2007 @ 3:44 pm | Comment

Hey Leah,

How about a place for expat men to hold forth on expat women, explaining exactly what it is that has driven us away from them and into the arms of their Chinese sisters?

I wonder how that would do…

Happily married to a non-submissive Chinese woman,

David

March 7, 2007 @ 8:43 pm | Comment

Just don’t mistake passive-aggressive for submissive, the Oriental mystique as an Occidental mistake. Good luck dating.

March 7, 2007 @ 10:23 pm | Comment

If venting and telling embellished stories about personal experiences in a public, Internet-based forum (whether related to China, expat men in China, or fly-fishing) is a way to process emotions, build community or whatever, then I am all for it.

So if someone wants to start a blog that trashes expat women, by all means, I say let it rip. I’m sure it will have a solid base of readership among like-minded comrades who (in spite of the fact that every index of gender parity tips in their favor) need a space to cope with the tragic ennui of their male privilege. Those of us who are not interested in that brand of whining will simply refrain from reading it.

March 8, 2007 @ 1:37 am | Comment

*snickers* You tell ’em, Leah.

March 8, 2007 @ 1:54 am | Comment

My wife is Sichuanese and she is far FAR from submissive. I didn’t go to China looking to get a Chinese wife..it just happened and I am happy about that. In my experience Chinese woman are jealous and posessive for a reason. In Chinese culture many men cheat. Fact. They have girlfriends, second, third, fourth wives and go to hookers etc. One of the big hurdles in my marriage has been for my wife to learn to trust me (men) .Now that we are in America she seems much more at ease. BTW,I met many great expat women during my time in China. I’d love to hear why so few hook up with Chinese men.

March 8, 2007 @ 2:09 am | Comment

I haven’t figured out why exactly an expat (man or woman) would go to China looking to date other expats. Expats are a disagreeable bunch on the whole, for one. And hanging out in expat pick-up bars in foreign countries and then complaining about the quality of the dating scene just seems slightly masochistic, for two. Is that scene much different in your home country? Probably not. Except that in China you are left with a much smaller pool of mostly disagreeable, disgruntled expats to choose from. (Of course, none of the expats around here are like that, though).

You’ve got half a billion Chinese men to choose from. Try one of those.

March 8, 2007 @ 3:47 am | Comment

It is a bit like bringing your own sand to the beach.You might as well experience everything that China has to offer. 88 you are correct, Expats on the whole, are a rather despicable bunch. I wonder how a lot of them don’t get deported or lynched.

March 8, 2007 @ 6:07 am | Comment

Without us, the Chinese economy would fall apart. Plus, we have the magical skill called “English”. Chinese have a lot of trouble mastering that strange magic. 😉

March 8, 2007 @ 7:37 am | Comment

Without us, the Chinese economy would fall apart. Plus, we have the magical skill called “English”. Chinese have a lot of trouble mastering that strange magic. 😉

Ah yes, the expat – that rarefied species of man without whom the earth would fail to turn. Thank you, oh expat, for valiantly doing your part in preventing the Chinese economy from systemic collapse and propagating the wonders of your native (and often only) tongue to the heathens.

March 8, 2007 @ 8:52 am | Comment

You’re welcome! Of course, I was just talking about China. I think the rest of the world would do fine with out us but China would face some serious problems. At the very least, how would all the bars in Sanlitun survive?

March 8, 2007 @ 1:22 pm | Comment

At the very least, how would all the bars in Sanlitun survive?

Touche, man, touche.

March 8, 2007 @ 3:34 pm | Comment

Man, there is quite a bit of Stuart Smalley in you, Ken. Everybody is replaceable, with the exception of Steve Jobs and arguably Stephen Colbert. Yes, that includes luminaries such as Jack Welch and Lou Gerstner. Actually the higher you go, the more you realize that.

After the Bali bombing, you would think given the drastic decline of Western tourists, Bali would be in trouble. Not really, it’s a natural beauty and it can fill the resorts with the like of Chinese tourists now.

Those bars would just re-decorate and change themselves to belly dancing clubs or something. China will likely be the growth story of our lifetime, if not this whole century, with or without you.

When asked to give his investment advice, Jim Rogers answered, “learn Chinese.” If you are young, your Chinese skill (if you have any) will be very useful one day.

March 8, 2007 @ 11:44 pm | Comment

Shameless link I know, but I’ve added a little kindlin’ to the fire over here…

http://louishutong.typepad.com/louis_hutong/2007/03/the_spurning_of.html

March 9, 2007 @ 12:41 am | Comment

@Leah: probably the biggest complaint that expat men have towards the women is that they are fat, or arrive skinny and blow up like blimps. There has been an increase in quality women, but it has been small and they tend to gravitate towards executive men…who probably already have a small stable of local girls to mess around e of what a proper westerner is.with.

@Ting bu dong: I’m right with you, expats like to put themselves on a pedestal, regardless of how shabby they really are. Travel between China and the US helps one maintain an image of what a proper westerner is.

@JXie: Without western technology, money and expertise China would be about what it was before the cultural revolution.

March 9, 2007 @ 12:55 am | Comment

(Words fail… )

March 9, 2007 @ 1:30 am | Comment

Leah: Ha! That must mean you are either fat, or “arrived skinny and blew up like a blimp”. Why else would you be so outraged? 😉

This thread is frickin’ hilarious.

(Seriously, China offers slim pickings for expat women. You have a choice between obnoxious local horndogs or obnoxious expat horndogs, especially if you’re looking for love in bars.)

March 9, 2007 @ 6:39 am | Comment

nanheyangrouchuan wrote:

“@Leah: probably the biggest complaint that expat men have towards the women is that they are fat, or arrive skinny and blow up like blimps. “

I understand, brother. Why should a fat white man settle for a fat white woman when he can have a skinny Asian?

@88

Men in most cultures are reluctant to date and very, very reluctant to marry older women unless there’s money to inherit or some other material gain, so the gender gap between Western men and women widens into a chasm after the age of 30.

Women can be golddiggers, too, but women can also fall in love with older men if the men are stable and secure, not only financially but emotionally. We women are biologically wired to be more tolerant of age since older men can still father a child. However, recent research has demonstrated that age not only reduces men’s fertility but also the genetic quality of their sperm, leading to an increased risk of birth defects among children with older fathers. That is one reason why women, like men, prefer to date peers, but women will feel attracted to older men if those men are very successful or if suitable men of the same age bracket are unavailable.

I knew two Western women who married Chinese men fifteen and twenty years younger. One ended in a quick divorce after the husband secured his visa to Canada. The other marriage is struggling as the husband drifts from job to job while his wife pays most of the bills.

Younger women under thirty, studying or working as English teachers, were more successful in finding male companionship, be it Western or Chinese.

March 9, 2007 @ 8:57 am | Comment

@Sonagi,

Ok, but I didn’t mention anything about age. I don’t see the connection to what I said…mabye I’m missing something. (?)

March 9, 2007 @ 9:25 am | Comment

@88:

You finished your previous post by saying:

“You’ve got half a billion Chinese men to choose from. Try one of those.”

I commented about age to make the point that Western women don’t have “a half a billion Chinese men to choose from.” I speak from experience. During my four-year sojourn in China, I don’t recall meeting any single, widowed, or divorced Chinese men in my age range. If I just wanted sex, I could have hooked up with a 20-something, but I was looking for a companion, not a mere sex partner.

March 9, 2007 @ 10:48 am | Comment

And let me add that I was in my mid-thirties at the time, not exactly grandma.

March 9, 2007 @ 11:05 am | Comment

@Sonagi,

I’ll concede that you don’t literally have half a billion men to choose from and that it is harder for a woman in her mid-30s (in any country) to get dates. I guess I wasn’t assuming the writers of that blog were in their mid-30s. Having said that, I’d still say it would be harder to find an (acceptable) expat than a local.

Reason #1: although you might not literally have a half a billion to choose from, you have at least 1,000 times the number of expats to choose from.

Reason #2: male expats in China are living in a seller’s market — that probably massively reduces the chances that they are going to be interested in expat women, who they (maybe mistakenly) think will be a lot more work (and a lot more particular about things like monogamy) than the 5 Chinese girls they can usually get dates with at any given moment. It probably gives some male expats a big head, as well, which will just make them seem even more obnoxious to expat women.

March 9, 2007 @ 12:06 pm | Comment

@JieXie

I think of myself as the un-Stuart Smiley. I never think I’m good enough, I’m too smart and I really don’t care if people like me. I still don’t see how you jump to me being Stuart Smiley from me saying that the Chinese economy is dependent on foreigners. I agree individuals are replaceable, but large groups of people are not. Look at the Soviet Army in the beginning of World War 2 after Stalin purged the office corps. If you really believe that, you don’t think it would make a difference if FLG replaced the Communist Party?

On another note, I think it would be a waste of time to learn Chinese in your interested in Chinese. Read this http://sinocidal.com/?p=135. We’re in the middle of the golden age of China. Enjoy it while it lasts.

P.S. JieXie: Promising work on your US pop references. In no time at all you’ll be a regular Urkel.

March 9, 2007 @ 1:32 pm | Comment

@88,

The female blogger seems very youngish, immature, and self-centered, which may explain why her love life is so unsatisfactory.

As for the meat market in China, no, women over thirty do not have “1,000 times as many locals as expats to choose from.” Most local men in my age bracket are married, and how could I meet available Chinese men anyway? Young people meet in nightclubs, but we more mature folks usually meet potential partners through friends or by participating in organized groups. There weren’t a lot of available men in my age bracket, but the ones I knew were all Westerners.

I also disagree that the skewed dating market turns Western men into arrogant jerks. That was not my experience. My experience with Western men was that nice men just wanted to find nice women of any nationality, while other not-so-nice men did openly scorn “fat white women” in favor of local girls. Going to China didn’t make these men jerks. They were already that way before they got there, and I figure Chinese women do us Western women a favor by removing these men from the dating pool.

I knew a few Western men who preferred Western partners for cultural reasons, and a large minority of my Western women friends preferred Western men, some for cultural and some for racial reasons.

March 10, 2007 @ 7:30 am | Comment

I’ve been waiting for a “disgusting Ex patriot Man” to respond to this post. Most expats know that we cannot win in the eyes of the expat woman. Just like the expat woman CANNOT win in the eyes of an expat man. Men are visual.

March 10, 2007 @ 6:49 pm | Comment

“Without western technology, money and expertise China would be about what it was before the cultural revolution.”

they can just ask one of the immigrants that take up 20-25% of US tech jobs.

March 11, 2007 @ 10:00 am | Comment

After reading both her blog and the comments here, I have once again been re-affirmed in something I already knew. There are a group of elitist expats who think they are somehow better than us hedonists and have to reaffirm their elitism by bashing us.

Personally I think its a sign of insecurity on their part.

I am tired of being told that I have to apologize for wanting to have a good time. Expat girl can just get over it.

Well for the record: 1) I like drinking and I like the fact that it can be done over here in Asia easier than it can be done in the US.

2) I like Asian women and a lot of guys are just like me. If we wanted to deal with pushy gwailo women-we would have stayed at home.
(Although I agree with poster who said the submissive Asian woman is a myth. They just make you feel better while you are being used!)

3) Its a free market. Learn to compete in the market you’re in or go home…………….

4) I’m not ashamed to be a “disgusting expat man” I am proud of it and will wear it like a badge of honor.

Sign me,

Happy as a clam to be in asia.

March 11, 2007 @ 5:29 pm | Comment