I can’t believe these arrogent pigs. They behave like colonialists on the Bund after gunning another concession out of the inscrutable celestials. And in the comments, all the racist posturing, violence, machismo and prideful hate. Why are they in China if they hate it so much? Oh it must be the money and that back here they come from they are nobodies.

I don’t often think a group of people would better serve the planet by becoming plant food, but they really deserve it

March 9, 2007 @ 7:15 pm | Comment

I’m kind of on Frances’ side here. “Don’t learn Chinese — you might hear something you dislike!” What absolute bollocks. I’ve come to the point of being able to accept that some people will have their reasons for coming here and not bothering to learn the language, but the notion of celebrating ignorance and then blaming everything on the locals is just kind of repellent.

March 9, 2007 @ 11:08 pm | Comment

Some of the comments and posts on that website are actually quite funny, even if the prevailing tone on the thread is unpleasant.

March 10, 2007 @ 1:52 am | Comment

Unfortunately “likely to exhibit juvenile macho-ism” isn’t one of the questions the PRC foreign ministry asks on their visa application.

Chinese rules about etiquette/courtesy are probably different. They probably still get disgusted when Chinese belch at the table, yet are unable to understand why the Chinese are disgusted with their own rude behavior.

These drunken kids would be getting drunk and picking fights even if they were back in their home countries. Their behavior is more a reflection of their own internal state of mind than the society they happen to live in.

March 10, 2007 @ 2:17 am | Comment

“They probably still get disgusted when Chinese belch at the table, yet are unable to understand why the Chinese are disgusted with their own rude behavior.”

I think you’ve got them completely the other way around. From what I see, it’s that Chinese will ignore the behaviour of other Chinese, yet focus on what they’re doing (even if it’s perfectly normal).

March 10, 2007 @ 4:16 am | Comment

I thought it was pretty funny. Not P.C. but funny.

March 10, 2007 @ 4:29 am | Comment

Raj,

You’re even more clueless about China than I thought. Most Chinese don’t mind belching at the table, at least amongst friends/family.

March 10, 2007 @ 6:41 am | Comment

CCT,

I never said Chinese do mind belching. I said the beef of some of the people on the other site is that Chinese will apply one set of rules to other Chinese, and another set of rules to them.

Maybe you should remove the beam from your own eye before you try to remove the splinter from mine. Alternatively you could stop playing dumb – then again maybe you are honestly stupid……

March 10, 2007 @ 7:30 am | Comment

Most Chinese I have met don’t like it when other people do a lot of things. They just can’t/won’t mention it due to the Face issue. I’ve stopped many a class and asked a student why they spit in the classroom. Most of the other students say “He’s a pig” etc.Later…Those very same students spit in the room. Who really understands China? Not me.

March 10, 2007 @ 7:36 am | Comment

@Frances and Brendan:

Don’t ever take seriously anything you read at Sinocidal. The guys just like to whine. Sometimes they’re funny, and sometimes not. This was one of their not funny ones because the anecdotes rang hollow. Sinocidal is at its best when they put a little exaggerated or dramatic spin on events that really do happen.

@CCT and Raj:

Lots of nationalities play the “do as I say, not as I do” game and/or project their own manners on the entire population. Korean men often chew with their mouths open. I pointed this out to a Korean language instructor, who claimed that only low-class men do it. I informed her that I witnessed and overheard this eating habit daily in our university cafeteria, whose student body was solidly middle class and upper middle class. She shrugged in disbelief.

March 10, 2007 @ 7:46 am | Comment

Yes, I was deeply offended at that Sinocidal article. It was just utterly crass lies performed by poor foreign slobs who believe that learning Chinese isn’t worth the effort since whatever results they have from their hours spent in learning have resulted in total rabid insight into how good hearted Chinese people have only their most dire interests at heart.

Give me a fucking break!*

*Hopefully during lunch time in a massage palace where I don’t have to listen to another Chinese schmoe ogling my pecker and making moronic comments!

March 10, 2007 @ 7:48 am | Comment

Please don’t misunderstand me, but if you’re going to learn Chinese, you had better be ready to deal with the piper. Curse ’em back in Chinese is always fun. I actually never gave a flying crap about face or about sitting there fulfilling their paradigm about foreigners by justifying it by “Oh gee, this isn’t my country; I am a guest!” or “I am an ambassador of my country” crap.

Okay, god, I love American beer.

Cheers.

March 10, 2007 @ 7:55 am | Comment

Jeez Frances,what a bitch.

March 10, 2007 @ 8:54 am | Comment

Frances, you are far too uptight!

March 10, 2007 @ 10:10 am | Comment

lingling and peepee are far too sensitive about their situation in China so they need to vent and rabidly defend themselves at the same time.

In ten years, like alot of long term expats they’ll be in the same place doing the same job and look even worse than they do now.

March 10, 2007 @ 10:21 am | Comment

Wow, you people need to seriously lighten up! We’re just taking the piss a little bit – or would you rather that every China blog take the same magnifying glass to every piece of “not news” that comes out of the middle kingdom?

March 10, 2007 @ 11:16 am | Comment

Taitai, you know that’s not my attitude – you are on my blogroll and I often get a big kick out of your site. I also think you know that by the nature of your blog you’re going to come under some heavy criticism, so don’t be surprised! And I agree, if every blog did what mine does, the blogosphere would quickly become the bore-o-sphere.

March 10, 2007 @ 11:22 am | Comment

nanheyangrouchuan, what a twisted, little two faced sh!t you are – I thought we were lovers. Just call me P$P$ from now on you bit-o-cheese.

March 10, 2007 @ 11:28 am | Comment

Most of us can’t see beyond our own noses anyway, though personally trying very hard to learn from those who seem to be able to make perfect calls and execute fantastically well — in a way like Edward Lambert learning from Warren Buffet (using celebrities purely to stress the part of learning).

Here is my prediction: in the next 10 years, CNY:USD will go through an even greater adjustment than the post Plaza Accord JPY:USD adjustment; out of all of them (pardon me losing interest half way into reading the first entry of those guys’ blog), the one who can speak Chinese will find the best paid job at home.

Here will be likely a fact: between 2000 and 2017, China will product more college graduates than all college graduates in the American workforce.

March 10, 2007 @ 11:31 am | Comment

I think you’ve all terribly misjudged my article on Sinocidal. If you delete every fifth word, translate it into Sanskrit, and read it backwards, it actually says “Can’t we all just get along?”

And before anyone else says it, yes, the article probably would be better if you deleted every word, not just every fifth.

March 10, 2007 @ 12:05 pm | Comment

“China will product more college graduates than all college graduates in the American workforce.”

China produces alot of grads and not even good chinese companies want them.

peepee: just take the 50 kuai I left in the envelope and don’t let the door hit your ass.

March 10, 2007 @ 12:12 pm | Comment

I agree. Lighten up Frances. It’s a joke…sorta. It’s a way to vent.
Sonagi: I thought it was funny because it hit the mark….. It’s true. Of course I wasn’t there personally BUT these things have happened to me many, many, MANY times. So I guess I have had very different experiences from “Other” people. So what? Sheesh.. You prolly don’t get ‘The Diceman” either. I pity the fool.

March 10, 2007 @ 3:56 pm | Comment

Oh geezus. The guys are just being facetious. Commenter number one needs to up his dosage of Prozac, stat.

Though I will say this: it’s [i]never[/i]a waste to learn another language – not even if the language in question is Esperanto.

March 10, 2007 @ 4:07 pm | Comment

I checked out 88’s blog and I found it to be a breath of fresh air. Honest and forthcoming. A step forward. If our true, at times, ugly feelings are Politically incorrect then…what to do? Hold them and hold them until we are Charles Whitman on the tower? Nope. Maybe the World isn’t the place YOU thought it was and maybe YOU need to grow up.

March 10, 2007 @ 4:16 pm | Comment

BTW, “all of the racist posturing, violence, machismo and prideful hate” sounds a lot like where? Oh..China! Had me confused for a moment. Puhleeze!

March 10, 2007 @ 4:20 pm | Comment

Frances? Where are you? In America or Europe? Perhaps? Gotta love the ideals

March 10, 2007 @ 5:57 pm | Comment

I realized that that is a fuck U, Cause…You don’t even know why!

March 10, 2007 @ 7:12 pm | Comment

Now look what you’ve done, Richard. The Sinocidal gang has invaded your blog. It’s almost as scary as when those Malkinovites busted their way into the joint.

March 10, 2007 @ 8:45 pm | Comment

Yep, a bit of humor is never a good thing.

March 11, 2007 @ 4:23 am | Comment

hahaah this post made me laugh… at the authors.

they must seriously be hanging around the wrong crowd of people. quit hanging around the over-30 set… start hanging around the desperate, westerner-admiring gals that chinabounder seems to adore. they don’t belch. and from what my friends say, they don’t fart under the covers either.

i must say, though, that the more westernized a chinese person is, the more polite that person is. although i believe it’s more because westernized chinese are richer, which implies politeness rather than the other way around.

March 11, 2007 @ 8:10 am | Comment

another example of someone’s lily white sensitivities chapping his ass. he needs to stop crying and realize this happens to everyone else as well.

March 11, 2007 @ 9:40 am | Comment

I’d like to ask a question to all of you who are criticizing the blog. What specifically don’t you like about it? ChouChou is talking about an experience he has had, an experience that many expats, especially expats who speak pretty good Chinese have had. Most of you then run around saying that they’re a bunch of winers and that their racist and in 10 years everyone will be speaking Chinese, using chopsticks and everyone will be much happier. None of you are saying exactly what is bothering you and simply start crying about how much better you are then them.

Stop patting yourselves on the back for being better people than them. Stop thinking that you are morally superior to them because you refuse to see what’s in front of you. Here are some facts: Chinese people believe that they are the center of the world and that they are the most civilized. No matter how crazy opinion someone has, a foreigner can’t contradict them because that will make them loose face even if the foreigner knows much more about the topic then they do.

Example: My friend teaches English and one day a student told him that “right” and “write” have two different pronunciations. My friend, the teacher, insisted that the pronunciations were the same. The students disagreed and said that her Chinese English teacher had told her that they were the same. My friend said he would ask other teachers and see what they said. He did and they all agreed with him. He went back and told the student what he had found. The Chinese student refused to believe him, insisting that her Chinese English teacher knew more about English than he, a native speaker, did. A Chinese friend of mine insisted that “porque” was pronounced “borque” because that’s what her Chinese French teacher told her.

@JieXie this is why I’m not worried about the Chinese overtaking the US, Japan and the rest of the West. The Chinese are horrible learners and don’t listen to the experts because they’d much rather hang on to their comforting myths.

March 11, 2007 @ 12:49 pm | Comment

How dare you criticize Sinocidal? Boohoo!

Lighten up Kenzhu. Not even those five crazy guys at Sinocidal take themselves or any criticism of their blog as seriously as you do. I called them whiners, but at times, they are darn funny when they whine! As I said before, their humor is at its best when it slightly exaggerates or dramatizes experiences familiar to many expatriates in China. I am a fan of Sinocidal and regularly stop by for a laugh. Unlike quite a few netizens I meet in the blogsphere, I don’t raise my blood pressure by reading blogs I don’t like. Likewise, the smart and funny guys at Sinocidal let off steam by laughing off, rather than getting angry at the idiots they encounter in their work and their personal lives. Not only Chinese, but fellow expats have been the target of ridicule.

March 11, 2007 @ 11:10 pm | Comment

Kenzhu, regarding your debate with a student regarding the pronunciations of “write” and “right”: It is possible to conceive two subtly different (tonal) pronunciations for the words. I often teach my students that there are one, two or three ways to say, or pronounce an English phrase.

Chinese (and we, too, unfortunately) often misrepresent or misunderstand English as non-tonal, or nearly so. This is completely false. Naturally, it is true that Chinese relies more on tones. But to say that English is not based on tones, etc. is false. Right? (upwards tone) As I write (downwards tone) this, I think you might right (neutral tone) or wrong (downwards tone).

I’m nitpicking of course, so don’t take me too seriously. But if you find this worthy enough to discuss more…well, by all means!

March 12, 2007 @ 12:48 am | Comment

@Sonagi

I wasn’t really talking about posters like you. I was referring to the people who simply stated that the the post was just wining.

What I like about this blog is that does promote discussions. If someone has a serious issue with the post, they should raise it not just going claiming it was bunch of expat losers. And I really don’t think that the Sinocidal guys need me to defend them. I also think that if someone is an idiot, sometimes it’s important to point it out or else, they’ll continue doing idiotic behavior and I see too much of that in China already.

March 12, 2007 @ 12:53 am | Comment

………..

WTF? I normally don’t use capital letters, as it is not good netiquette .
But I am going to make and exception here in a minute.

For now, I’d like to thank Richard for making this blog. That’s not pandering or ass-kissing. I read it any and every time I am on the internet.

Sinocidal:
About The Content. The content is sometimes funny, somtimes not funny. But it’s all humor. They do satire, e’gao, and on occasion sing…(*badly*).

Geez. It’s bad enough when I have to define and explain the concept of “blowing off steam” to Chinese, now I have to explain to Westerners?

GET A LIFE PEOPLE.

@sonagi, richard, nausicaa – I apologize for contaminating you guys “home blog” with this.

@Richard – Thank you for having this blog. More people should say that to you, and more often.

Cheers,

the Admiral

March 12, 2007 @ 9:45 am | Comment

“Chinese people believe that they are the center of the world and that they are the most civilized”

All 1.3 billion of them? Let me guess, they live in Shanghai or Beijing where you literally pass by 1,000 people every single hour if not more.

It’s a whiny blog of crybaby sadface grumpypantses. If they wanted to learn about ethnocentrism they could have asked their uncles and saved themselves some grief.

I swear, 75% of American youth (mostly males) these days can’t go 15 seconds without proclaiming themselves to be a visionary, conquerer, entrepreneur, or esteemed diplomat. Look friends, I’ve discovered racism. Woe is me. Twas like a sultry dance of .. WISPING POIGNANT OBLIVION!!!1

March 12, 2007 @ 10:09 am | Comment

Thanks Admiral. I tend to be on your side with this. Sinocidal is meant to be funny; sometimes it works better than others, and they can certainly offend. But that’s part of the point. They make no claim to be anything else but a bunch of whining expats, and their whines often make damned good reading. I can see how some interpret this as racism, but I don’t agree. They mean it in fun, and are as racist as a bunch of Chinese expat students in the US whining at the primitiveness and tastelessness of American culture. If they advocated racial superiority, then I’d be more concerned.

March 12, 2007 @ 10:30 am | Comment

Thanks Richard. I know for a fact that AT LEAST 2 of the Sinocidal ones are married to Chinese. seems kinda of, I don’t know the word…..Rediculous maybe? to brand them as racist.

March 12, 2007 @ 10:38 am | Comment

@Ferins

I’d just like to point out a fact to you. First New York City and Los Angles are both bigger than Beijing and Shanghai. China, while having the largest population, is not the most densely populated country in the world. And second of all, how does it follow that seeing a lot people makes you think you’re the center of the world? What is your thinking?

March 12, 2007 @ 11:34 am | Comment

Kenzhu, don’t know why you insisted to spell my handler incorrectly. Maybe you mistook me as someone else? Maybe you are very young in your life since most of what I wrote seemed to just flied over your head.

Anyway, get back to your point:

The Chinese are horrible learners and don’t listen to the experts because they’d much rather hang on to their comforting myths.

You said so because you feel so (presumably based on your personal experience) or because you think so? Most Fortune 500 companies’ CEOs would tell you that the Chinese are incredibly fast learners. But what do they know? They tend to be just older, smarter, much more experienced, battling in real life every single percentage of market share or profit margin, and respond of the well being of thouands of employees. You can try to blind them with Shanghai, but it will only work on some youngsters but not on these seasoned business men and women. Jack Welch even called the Chinese “have just got an awesome awesome intellectual capability and a gene, a gene that says ‘win.'”

Do you know what the single most foreign language Fortune 500 companies’ CEOs said they would recommend to learn as a second language — yes, Chinese.

Jim Rogers is my hero. He co-founded the Quantum Fund with George Soros, retired at age 37, and has traveled around the world twice. He is ranked by most of the investors/traders as one of the greatest investors at all time. He recently made the great calls of the commodity bull market and the bottom of the airline business (to name a couple). Anyway, he is my hero is not because his great track record per se but rather his common sense approaches & his brand of humility (and he traveling around the world twice, with different but both young female companions nonetheless).

He traveled into China the 2nd time through Central Asia. He looked at not the blinding skyline sof the Chinese cities, but rather the work ethics, the road condition, the mobile phone coverage, how easy the normal commerce being conducted, etc.

You know what he did afterward? He bought a place in Shanghai and made his new born daughter and the only daughter to learn Chinese and English at the same time.

10 years will be fast enough. My prediction on CNY:USD vis-a-vis JPY:USD post the Plaza According will be soon verifiable.

March 12, 2007 @ 12:13 pm | Comment

“What is your thinking?”

That you’re whining like a baby about a small percentage of the population

March 12, 2007 @ 1:26 pm | Comment

When I read Sinocidal, I think of the spawn that would have resulted if Don Rickles mated with the Animaniacs.

March 12, 2007 @ 3:42 pm | Comment

@JXie

Sorry, for misspelling your name.

Anyway, everything you’re saying about China, people were saying verbatim about Japan 20-15 years ago. And that was when Japanese companies were kicking the shit out of American companies and buying American landmarks. The current hot talk about China is exactly the same. I guess you’re were still in your diapers because I was in elementary and middle school at the time and I clearly remember it.

You keep pointing out all these top CEOs who say China is great and it’s expanding. Fine. But what do these CEOs know about developing markets and the problems they face? My friend who is getting a master’s in developing market economics tells me that all the experts in her field believe that China is facing serious issues. Your hero states that the Chinese stock market is over inflated.

The Chinese are great at taking people briefly showing them China and getting their guests to believe what an amazing place it is. When the Chinese government heard that Senator Charles Schumer was pushing for a 44% tariff on Chinese goods, they invited him over and took him on a tour. He came back saying that he could work with them. Now, he’s pushing for the tariff again. Yeah, Jack Welch says that the Chinese have a “win” gene or some crap like that. How many times has he been to China. What I do know is that every single businessman who spent a significant about of time in China is unimpressed with China. They say Chinese employees can’t learn new skills, are lazy, take shortcuts and generally are a pain to work with. JXie, where are you living in China because it seems very different from the China the rest of us are living in.

March 12, 2007 @ 7:36 pm | Comment

Admiral wrote:

“Thanks Richard. I know for a fact that AT LEAST 2 of the Sinocidal ones are married to Chinese. seems kinda of, I don’t know the word…..Rediculous maybe? to brand them as racist.
”

I have no reason to think the guys at Sino are racist at all. Just disagree with idea that having a local spouse is “proof” that one harbors no racist attitudes towards the culture.

March 12, 2007 @ 7:44 pm | Comment

@JXie

Sorry, for misspelling your name.

Anyway, everything you’re saying about China, people were saying verbatim about Japan 20-15 years ago. And that was when Japanese companies were kicking the shit out of American companies and buying American landmarks. The current hot talk about China is exactly the same. I guess you’re were still in your diapers because I was in elementary and middle school at the time and I clearly remember it.

You keep pointing out all these top CEOs who say China is great and it’s expanding. Fine. But what do these CEOs know about developing markets and the problems they face? My friend who is getting a master’s in developing market economics tells me that all the experts in her field believe that China is facing serious issues. And your hero states that the Chinese stock market is over inflated. Can you name a single Chinese company, other than Lenovo, which foreign consumer know? China is not competing at all with the US economy but with other developing countries. I’d argue that India is a better position because it, unlike China, has been able to attract white collar jobs from the developed world.

The Chinese are great at taking people briefly showing them China and getting their guests to believe what an amazing place it is. When the Chinese government heard that Senator Charles Schumer was pushing for a 44% tariff on Chinese goods, they invited him over and took him on a tour. He came back saying that he could work with them. Now, he’s pushing for the tariff again. Yeah, Jack Welch says that the Chinese have a “win” gene or some crap like that. How many times has he been to China. What I do know is that every single businessman who spent a significant about of time in China is unimpressed with China. They say Chinese employees can’t learn new skills, are lazy, take shortcuts and generally are a pain to work with. JXie, where are you living in China because it seems very different from the China the rest of us are living in.

@Thoth Harris
Yeah, I agree with you. English does use tones but maybe it’s because I’m studying Chinese, I’d argue that tones and pronunciation are separate. I venture to say that most Chinese would agree with me but I can’t say for sure. I’d guess the student wasn’t paying attention to tones.

March 12, 2007 @ 7:46 pm | Comment

@sonagi – Agreed. Having a spouse or significant other of a particular race does not neccesarily preclude one from being racist.

My point , which I made poorly, is that racism is generally a result of ignorance and/or fear.

In the case of a laowai living in China having a Chinese significant other, ignorance gets cured about the 2nd or 3rd year together.

Any intelligent person who is ignorant or intolerant of “Chinese” will certainly either “get over it” pretty quick.

Having said that, there will always be ignorant redneck bastards that lash out at anything they don’t understand, or that they fear.

P.S. Thanks again for supporting China Blogs.

March 13, 2007 @ 12:46 am | Comment

FWIW, the year when the Nikkei Index reached its historical peak & the real estate value of Tokyo , I was a senior in college. You might have seen my face in one of those anti-government demonstration footages in China — desperately in need of better clothes and a better haircut.

The like of Jim Rogers and Jack Welch who many believe is the best American CEO ever, are like generals and most of your acquaintances are like foot soldiers. In the masterpiece War And Peace, from the foot soldiers’ stand point, Russians seemed to be winning the war. But in reality, Napoleon was only defeated by Mother Nature. Let me be perfectly blunt, most of the bloggers and commentators here are probably great drinking buddies, but when it comes to long-term vision that will help give you a great life, they are a bunch of losers.

Most Americans draw the wrong lesson in Japan’s “challenge” in the late 80s to early 90s — that the US is invincible and any future “challengers” are pretenders. A commonly held belief in those days was that one day Japan would overtake the US in total GDP, which given the smaller population and lower level of labor participation of Japan, means the per worker GDP of Japan would be some 3 times of that of the US. It didn’t happen. The correct lesson is that given the same level of education and infrastructure support, an average American will perform roughly at par with his Japanese counterpart, or vice versa.

China is much bigger than Japan. But its education level is much lower. The college education was stopped in the disastrous Cultural Revolution. The age group that missed the college education is now the age group that typically is the most productive age group in knowledge-centric economies. Plus a couple of other reasons that’s why most Chinese brands are quite worldly yet. Even at the end of Li Peng’s premiership, only roughly 6% of the college age youths were in some sort of colleges. Today, the ratio is between 30% and 40%, depending on the inclusion of adult and remote educations. That’s within the ballpark of that in the US. In my estimate, the equilibrium point when the per worker GDP of China reaches the same level as that of the US will be the middle of this century. Given the likely demographic shifts (pop. growth rate, immigration), I expect China to be 3 times as powerful as the US.

I will not go into why those CEOs aren’t fools to be blinded by Shanghai.

Dr. Marc Faber once told his friends that they needed to move to Hong Kong and Taipei in the 60s, and they thought he was nuts given how backward HK and Taipei were in those days (imagine all your complaints about today’s China and plus some more). But if you studied how the US and Japan ascended to their peaks, you would understand better. The US’ ascendancy was largely between the end of Civil War, a mostly agrarian economy, and the end of WW2, producing half of the world GDP. The Japan’s ascendancy was largely between the Meiji Restoration to the beginning of the WW2 (Japan didn’t reach it relative per capita industrial production in the world again until the 70s). If you reached the port of New York on the same boat as Ayn Rand, looking at the lighted NY skyline, would you cry with her? That’s actually a rhetorical question because in the 20s, Asian immigrants were prohibited in the US with the Chinese Exclusive Act and the Gentlemen’s Agreement.

In my 38 years, I’ve spent roughly half in China and half in the US. I own a small business in the US and spend a lot of my time traveling around the globe, which definitely help my perspectives in many issues. In the past several years, I probably have spent some 10% of my time in China. I am in the process of unwinding my business in the US and permanently moving back to China. I have seen the sign.

March 13, 2007 @ 12:50 am | Comment

read: the real estate value of tokyo exceeded that of the whole US. Clicked Post a bit too quick…

March 13, 2007 @ 12:51 am | Comment

Admiral wrote:

“My point , which I made poorly, is that racism is generally a result of ignorance and/or fear.”

Or contempt for cultural differences.

All cultural groups have their own set of common behaviors that may annoy or clash with the behaviors of other groups.

People can live in another country for many years, become knowledgeable about the culture, and still not like it very much.

“To know me is to love me.”

Not necessarily, for

“Familiarity breeds contempt.”

On my bookshelf are two anti-American bitchfests by Asian women who lived in the US for several years, I Don’t Like America, written by a Korean doctor and Coca Cola, penned by a Chinese graduate of a US university. The books rehash the usual suspects: racism, economic inequality, gun violence, and religious extremism, interspersing personal experiences with statistics and historical data.

The books are not lies, but they are distortions because they have nothing good to say about a country that attracts one million legal and still more illegal immigrants every year. Unlike you guys at Sinocidal, these two very well-educated women have no sense of humor. The books was all serious bitching and slamming. Since Americans are multiracial, I can’t call these screeds “racist,” but I would say these two women are sowing hatred by publishing these books. The problem isn’t ignorance or fear – both lived in the US several years and speak English fluently – but rather contempt for differences and skewed vision that sees only others’ faults.

I think you and I would agree that after living in a country for several years, if you are still unhappy, the problem isn’t the culture. It’s you.

March 13, 2007 @ 7:27 am | Comment

@JXie

I still think you don’t understand my argument because you’re not addressing it or because “what I wrote seemed to just flied over your head.”

“The like of Jim Rogers and Jack Welch who many believe is the best American CEO ever, are like generals and most of your acquaintances are like foot soldiers…” This statement and the rest of the paragraph reflects a lack of understanding how organizations work. Organizational Sociologist have demonstrated time and time that actually it’s middle management, not the leaders, which are responsible for the success of an organization. Middle managers know what’s really happening; leaders rarely do. In your metaphor, I’m talking to the middle managers and you’re reading the leaders, who actually have no idea what’s happening. Remember it’s not the generals who win wars but sergeants. To quote your great hero Napoleon “Every soldier carries a marshall’s baton in his pack.”

JXie, you appear to lack an understanding of how economies grow. Economies grow because they can provide something unique to the world’s markets. The United States’ economy exploded after World War II because the competition had been leveled in World War II. Japan built products that were reliable and cheap, a niche that no one else was occupying. Right now, China is growing because it has cheap labor but cheap labor can be found all over the world. China does not have a monopoly on it. In order to reach the level of the the West, China has to find a niche. Can you tell me what niche that will be?

China also needs a long way to go before it can reach Western levels of education. Yes, China may have more college graduates than the US but China’s education is of a lower standard that the West’s. Also, the Chinese economy is having a hard time creating jobs for those graduates; Chinese college graduates always point out how hard it’s for them to find a job.

JXie, China has a long way to go. You may think that in 10 years, China will dominate the market but I think that’s wishful thinking based more on your personal wants that what’s really happening. Before you relocate to China, you need to take off your rose colored glasses and take a hard look at what’s happening in China. You buying in the PR and missing out on what’s really happening.

March 13, 2007 @ 10:16 am | Comment

*Sigh*

Kenzhu, it’s ok. We have made our arguments, & wasted enough bandwidth. We have made our points. I am a student of the economics though not by training. Studying von Miser to John Keynes, boom and bust, rise and fall is of great interest to me. Thanks for that bit of pop version of comparative advantage education, and that interesting theory on organizational sociology. Be sure to find a chance to explain it to the boards of some companies such as Apple and GE — they should pay less to their CEOs and more to their middle management.

I make my bed and I shall lie in it. I am reasonably certain I know China far more than you do, but thanks for the concerns.

Remember, I was purely making a call on the currency move in 10 years, not on whether China will “dominate the market” (whatever that means). Not being able to tell all these differences is what that bit of flying over your head was all about. Moving to China (to start a business) is trying to position myself to take advantage of some new trends created by that (currency move). Since you don’t seem to be particularly keen on the currency move or many other finer topics, I will take a pass on explaining my rationales and hoping for some intelligent critiques.

March 13, 2007 @ 12:47 pm | Comment

@JXie

I’m annoyed at your refusal to respond to my points. If you think they’re ridiculous, tell me why because I’d be interested. I apologize when if I misunderstand your argument but when people say “I am in the process of unwinding my business in the US and permanently moving back to China. I have seen the sign.” that indicated to me that they think China will dominate the market. I’m scratching my head trying to figure what you are really arguing. I’d like to understand your point but I’m having trouble seeing it.

March 13, 2007 @ 1:44 pm | Comment

@sonagi

“I think you and I would agree that after living in a country for several years, if you are still unhappy, the problem isn’t the culture. It’s you.”

I do agree. But it is worth mentioning that many of the things that annoy westerners about China, also annoy Chinese people. And you can hardly say that they’re racist towards Chinese. The pushing, shoving spitting, whatever.

And I have met Chinese people who, having lived in places like New Zealand and the US for years come back to China (husband got transferred here, have to to research here etc.) and hate being here for many of the same reasons ranted about on Sinocidal. Are they racist?

I think we should just be a little careful before we start throwing around the “R” word.

March 13, 2007 @ 2:31 pm | Comment

“people were saying verbatim about Japan 20-15 years ago. And that was when Japanese companies were kicking the shit out of American companies and buying American landmarks”

Uh Japan has 127m people crowded on a relatively small landmass that’s completely bare of any natural resources, for a country that ended up getting its ass kicked in world war 2 (and they got much less aid than Germany) it’s pretty impressive still. People who were thinking Japan would surpass America were completely stupid, it’s literally impossible given their population and lack of space/resources. That and their far-right nationalists slow them down a bit; all things considered it’s still fairly impressive and if you’re thinking China is going to be like Japan it just means China will control something like 50-60% of the world’s wealth.

If you think Chinese workers are stupid then tell that to all the idiots going there with investment money, but then again they’re successful and intelligent so you probably won’t take anything they say seriously.

March 13, 2007 @ 2:45 pm | Comment

Iron Buddha wrote:

“I do agree. But it is worth mentioning that many of the things that annoy westerners about China, also annoy Chinese people. And you can hardly say that they’re racist towards Chinese. The pushing, shoving spitting, whatever. “

Agreed whether we are talking about China, the US, or another country.

“I think we should just be a little careful before we start throwing around the “R” word. “

I made very clear in an earlier post that I did not consider the guys at Sinocidal to be racist. I would not even call the two Asian women writers of anti-American screeds racist. I think the word is overused, often as an ad-hominen attack against a person of one nationality who criticizes another.

March 13, 2007 @ 7:28 pm | Comment

@sonagi

Understood.

“I think the word is overused, often as an ad-hominen attack against a person of one nationality who criticizes another”

I agree.

March 13, 2007 @ 10:14 pm | Comment

@ Iron Buddha & sonagi- We’ve all been here long enough to know better. C’mon people.

March 14, 2007 @ 12:14 am | Comment

@JXie: the same group of wankers who are telling you to learn Chinese are the same group of wankers telling you to learn Japanese twenty years ago. Ask them if they are. As for Jim Rodgers being your hero…. man that is sad. Pick someone who hasn’t been laughed out of NY at least.

March 17, 2007 @ 11:13 pm | Comment

No, they’re really not. The people saying Japan would dominate America were crazy; still, they’ve done pretty well considering their various disadvantages though (no resources, small space, small population, slow start, less aid)

March 18, 2007 @ 8:29 am | Comment