I have to be honest this is the first thing I think I’ve ever read by Jeffery Sachs that I actually agree with. But for the most part I find that much of his work to be quite worthless. I actually find his critical analysis of the World Bank to be quite humorous since he helped them engineer the plunge of the Russian Ruble in the late 90’s. In fact it is exactly because of the massive privatization, about which Sachs seems to have become quite a moderate(did he learn his lesson?), that occured in Russia after the country imploded which caused the fallout of the Russian currency. That and the fact that Sachs, the World Bank, and the Harvard Endowment helped auction off all of Russia’s previous State run industries at minimalist prices to Mafia Kings and corrupt politicians. Where did the money go from that auction…take a look at the Harvard Endowment’s growth during the 1990’s, particularly the late 90’s.
But it’s obvious he was allowed to attend these sessions as an observer, hopefully nothing more. Maybe China is giving him an economics lesson for free.
And it’s a great lesson too, I mean there really is no way that any economist can argue that what China has done in the past twenty years is wrong. In fact you might say they’ve used the system better than most. And “most” economists still say that they are missing their possible efficiency peak, which means to say they could be doing much better. “Most” economists don’t show where they could be doing better, but those of us who live in China recognize that the lag in economic efficiency is quite obvious once you leave the fourth ring road of any major city (except for maybe Beijing, I’d add Shanghai and Guangzhou-Shenzhen but they don’t really have ring roads per se) At least the Chinese recognize this and hopefully they are showing the African Development Bank what not to do as well as what they need to do.

May 25, 2007 @ 10:57 pm | Comment

Like Nofate, Jeffrey Sachs is not exactly my cup of tea. While I’m not a big fan with the World Bank in general- due more to issues with international development as a process and concept than the institution itself – I find there is something deeply troubling about China being touted as a development model for emulation.

Much of this has to do with our love for instant history. First, the West had “made it”, and everywhere else had to shape up and get with the programme. Now, China has “made it” in common parlance, thanks to a GDP growth rate which never fails to impress those whole only read the business section of the newspaper. The problem with all this is that neither of these stories are finished yet- and unfortunately more often than not they are based on unsustainable practices with the real consequences only beginning to appear. It will be decades if not even centuries before either the “Western” or “Chinese” model can be declared any sort of success.

China’s development model, while certainly unleashing some very real entrepreneurial forces and grounded in the intense work ethic of SOME, nevertheless is equally dependent on land confiscation, social disruption and often brutal urban redevelopment. There is a very dark side to the Chinese development model that people like Sachs like to completely gloss over in articles such as these. I mean heck, there is a very dark side to the Western development model which has been pushed for so long- and gets equally glossed over by the international development community.

The Chinese model is more attractive to self-enriching African elites than to the actual people in those countries per say. As much as it might involve a ‘pragmatic’ approach, it also involves such practices as illegally logging national parks in Mozambique where I lived.

Do not get me wrong- I’m not defending the serious and even deadly consequences of the Western development ‘model’. I just don’t think China has anything better to offer Africa. In fact, maybe Africa could just be left alone for a change. Now that would a truly new and revolutionary ‘model’ to follow.

May 25, 2007 @ 11:56 pm | Comment

“The Chinese model is more attractive to self-enriching African elites than to the actual people in those countries per say. As much as it might involve a ‘pragmatic’ approach, it also involves such practices as illegally logging national parks in Mozambique where I lived.”

Absolutely.

Unfortunately, Chinese pragmatism in Africa necessarily means the exploitation of cheap labour and resources plundered with a total disregard for the environment.

Yes, Hu is a shrewd operator whose got everybody tripping over themselves in the rush to buy into his idea of a ‘strategic partnership’. Give it twenty years and I suspect that all this ‘win-win’ crap we keep hearing will seem very one-sided. The only hope is that Africans show China the door before the latter’s support for despotic regimes destroys the heart and soul of an entire continent. That’s when we begin the search for more appropriate adjectives to describe China’s foreign policy.

As for China’s domestic situation, I concur that her economy has thrived largely on the back of questionable practices; practices the Chinese seem intent on exporting.

May 26, 2007 @ 1:21 am | Comment

Stuart is right,

“Chinese pragmatism” will always come with terrorist thought control since most of the people who will actually be exploited will not just volunteer backbreaking labour.

People value human rights, and “Chinese pragmatism” absolutely does not. They value materials and this so called social darwinism. They’ll stop at nothing to acheive their pragmatic goals, they totally disregard all other factors aside from saving face and rolling in wealth and power.

The only reason the communists help a few people sometimes is because if they didnt they would not feel secure in their power position. So they only help the people they can benefit from. and they would have no problem just killing whoever they think they can benefit more from killing, as witnessed by history.

May 26, 2007 @ 7:21 am | Comment

Anyone could reap the cash that China reaps if they were as willing to stoop to the level of evil that the communist wallow in.

May 26, 2007 @ 7:23 am | Comment

If there’s one thing that can be learned from all this, it is the fact that Africans need to find an African solution to development and not simply copy Western or Asian models.

Having said that, it is pretty hard to argue against public investments in agriculture and infrastructure. After all, these are areas in which Africa had badly fallen behind since decolonization.

Even when you factor in the inevitable graft and corruption and skimming off the top of infrastructure budgets, at least there will be tangible outcomes that the general population can benefit from. All in all, it is still money well spent compared to financing the jet setting lifestyles of the western development industry that have delivered little beyond idealistic rhetoric.

May 26, 2007 @ 10:14 am | Comment

That’s funny. If Africans are suppose to find an “African solution”, doesn’t China’s “hands off” approach to foreign policy in fact facilitate that instead of the “Western” meddling in demanding certain reforms to their liking? Sounds like Chinese has the right idea on that too…

May 26, 2007 @ 10:29 am | Comment

I Wish China and the US will Only Become More and More Intimate

Recently, the US Senate proposed a Bill called the “US-People’s Republic of China Cultural Engagement Act”. This Bill is sponsored by two senators, something like “Lamar” and “Lieberman”. One is a Democrat and another is Republican.

Why should US-China cultures engage each other? Because each culture represents the 21st East and 21 century West. They are the two most illuminating and great cultures in the world.

I of course love Chinese culture very very much. I remember 30 years ago I was attending a college class on nuclear physics, and as our brains were being stuffed with things like Strong Nuclear Force, Weak Nuclear Force, Bohr Model, etc. We passed by a lake on our campus, and a teacher was reciting a poem. We were strongly affected by his recitatal, and all stopped to listen to him. And I realized that Humanity majors can be very interesting as well.

I also love American culture very much. My first American acquaintance was a yougn guy, and taught us English in a university English tutoring course. He asked one day that “Why do Chinese always boil the water and then drink it? I never understand that.” We told him that it’s because tap water in China is dirty and not suitable for drinking. But he said very seriously, “I have investigated that the tap water in Beijing is totally suitable for dirnking.” And then he made a gesture of moving his mouth below a faucet, and made some “watery” noise in his mouth… We all laughed at that. This young guy reflected the characteristics of Americans: very down to earth, very investigative and scientific.

My first close American was Owen. We got to know each other during hiking trips, and then we became quite good friends and took many trips together. We once travelled to a lake on a plateau for 4 days, we also went down the Colorado Valley and explored, and camped there for 3 days. Owen loved Chinese culture, during our trips, he even brought the “I-Ching” with him. Once, we were walking, and he suddenly bent down and picked up a piece of grass, and said to me “That’s the grass Emperor Zhou used to divine the future.” And I learned from him that this kind of grass is called “yarrow”. I felt a bit embarrassed, as Owen knew more about “I-Ching” than I did. And during all of our trips, Owen was always the more experienced in wild life, such as setting up camp, tying ropes, etc.

Once, Owen asked me once that, “China says that they’ll launch a Satellite for America, is that possible?” I said, “Of course it is possible.” The other time he came to me and said “I just learned today that Opium was sold to the Chinese by the British! Shame on Great Britain!”.

It’s been several years since I last saw Owen, I know that he’s living in Tennesse right now. I miss him very much, and hope the best for him.

Perhaps those senators who sponsored the “US-People’s Republic of China Cultural Engagement Act” were just like Owen, they bear kind feelings toward China.

This Act, in short, says:

1) US and China will greatly influence world economy and non-economic policies.
2) China’s huge market offers American investors great opportunities, and serves as a guarantor of world’s economic growth and economic security.
3) Increaseing economic and cultural exchanges between the two nations fit the best interests of both nations.

Whether or not this Bill will be passed, it reflects that Americans now increasingly embrace Chinese culture, and embrace China. I think American-Chinese cooperation will only continue, and will together create a better future for our children. These are self-evident truths. I wish the more exuberant fruits growing from the marriage of America and China.

May 26, 2007 @ 11:05 am | Comment

Fallin’

A “hands off approach” does not mean the PLA participating in the Darfur massacre or widespread bribery of African leaders.

China is nothing but a disfunctional filthy junkyard that wants to turn the rest of the world into a disfunctional, filthy junkyard.

May 27, 2007 @ 10:42 am | Comment

Now the PLA is participating in the Darfur massacre? You really are a brainwashed moron. Too many trans-fat twinkies, prostitutes, joints, and SUV exhaust has gotten to your brain.

America is nothing but a overfed piece of subhuman garbage that is consuming itself and everyone else to death.

The “Western model” of African development is a steaming pile of shit; butchering people and bulldozing their economies for personal gain isn’t exactly ideal.

At least China produces some results; and no, I doubt Africa is going to follow their path considering the two major variables: Africa has huge amounts of natural resources and obviously is decentralized. They could, theoretically, produce numbers better than China’s with half the effort.

May 27, 2007 @ 1:43 pm | Comment

Hey, ferins

Although I agree with you on your wonderful comments about that damn ID, I think attacking America is just not right.

I used to feel angry about their insults. But now I just feel funny. It is just a piece of joke.

May 27, 2007 @ 2:09 pm | Comment

Ferins,

I also think it is not right for you to attack America like that. Nobody is interested in engaging with Nanheyxxx; he often talks to himself. You don’t look good if you are mad at him.

May 27, 2007 @ 2:56 pm | Comment

Seriously, enough of the American bashing. It’s tired, unoriginal, completely uninspired and adds nothing to the discussions at hand. Ferins, your insult about “brainwashed morons” could apply to more than a few nouveau riche in China- heck, it could apply to a portion of the population in ANY country in the world. Just because the US is having some serious issues these days doesn’t give the rest of us the right to get off on ourselves when we are just as bad if not worse.

Schtickyrice, you make some interesting points but I’m still not sure how many tangible benefits will emerge for the general population in any new development model dumped on Africa.

“it is pretty hard to argue against public investments in agriculture and infrastructure. After all, these are areas in which Africa had badly fallen behind since decolonization.”

It becomes a bit easier to argue against investments in agriculture and infrastructure when they are made with the priorities of the colonialist/neo-colonialist in mind. It seems to be an all too commonly held myth that infrastructure in Africa fell apart with decolonization. However, you could argue that colonial infrastructure never really benefited most African populations in the first place- they were designed to funnel resources out of the colony to the mother country. Infrastructure is never just inherently “good”, and in Africa its colonial manifestation was certainly not engineered with the public good in mind.

All that to say that I have a hard time picturing Chinese investments which don’t above all facilitate their access to resources, followed by their ability to flood the continent with cheap goods in return. I’m also not sure how “hands off” their approach really is, as it involves more than a little propping up of unsavory elites. I think we can at least all be honest with each other and ourselves- the Chinese government cares for the average African person no more or no less than any other foreign entity which has arrived with the intent to plunder.

And this, at least, you could say is the one thing the Chinese approach has over the Western one: it’s not as tainted with hypocritical rhetoric regarding human rights, good governance and the like. Domestically, China is no bright shining light in these areas and doesn’t pretend to be- the government seems to view most of its OWN citizens as completely disposable pawns in the great name of “progress” and “development”.
So why would people expect it to act any differently in its actions on the African continent?

Here in the West things get a bit murkier because most people are convinced we are “helping” Africa through development work- while our multinationals get up to the usual sketchy business all the while. I’m just increasingly unconvinced that “development” as a conscious action or process is helping anyone, couched as it is in cultural arrogance and persistent colonial attitudes (that savage Africa needs “civilization” and “help” brought to it, even though this is the root of many of its current problems in the first place).

So I guess in a strange way the Chinese government gets my grudging admiration for being a little more open and honest in their disregard for the well-being of African populations. And the fact that people like Jeffrey Sachs are pushing this as a promising development model says less about China and more about what a muddled, tangled mess the whole idea of international development as driven by the West has become.

May 28, 2007 @ 6:32 am | Comment

“””””””””The “Western model” of African development is a steaming pile of shit; butchering people and bulldozing their economies for personal gain isn’t exactly ideal.””””””””””

The Chinese model is just a more sustainable version. It s totally corrupt and a sceme for sure.

The Chinese communist are very evil and will take advantage of their own baby daughters if it meant they could roll around in cash a little longer. Thats the facts. If you want the wave of genocidal persecution coming to your town, invite the communists, they’ll name a scape goat, do some bloody purgery and settle in the “stability ensuring” TERRORISM. If considering human rights and freedom is impeding on the freedom of the dictator, call the CCP theyll teach you the ABC’s of getting rid of your conscience so that 100% exploitation can be achieved.

May 28, 2007 @ 7:34 am | Comment

can you stop spamming and post something with some supports for once?

sucking out resources to build extravagant projects is definitely bad, but they’re willing to build infrastructure and whatnot if that’s what pays.

May 28, 2007 @ 1:25 pm | Comment

I am an American, and I seriously think we should shut up about China until we sign the Kyoto protocol, Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty, International criminal court ect. Oh wait we refuse to do it in our national interest…who are kidding?

We are in the best position to solve the gobal warning problem, but oh no, I need my giant SUV, too.

May 28, 2007 @ 2:44 pm | Comment

Arty:
Kyoto solves nothing, it is a political “feel good” for everyone but the big bad West (no western countries are meeting their kyoto levels), China signed the NNPT then gave nuke plans, tech and training to Pakistan, Lybia, NK and Iran. International Criminal Court? About as effective as the World Court and the Un.

As for the pure badness and evil of CHina’s plans for other developing countries:

India cancels diplomatic visit to China

By Jo Johnson in New Delhi

Published: May 27 2007 13:25 | Last updated: May 27 2007 13:25

India has cancelled a confidence-building visit to China by over one hundred civil servants in an escalation of a diplomatic row over the two countries’ 3,500km-long unresolved border.

The 107 Indian Administrative Service officers were due to leave for Beijing and Shanghai for a mid-career training programme on Saturday when they were directed to return to their home states.

ADVERTISEMENT

The Indian move came after China granted only 106 visas to the visiting delegation, denying one to a civil servant from the eastern Indian state of Arunachal Pradesh, on the grounds that he was Chinese and therefore did not need one.

Beijing claims 90,000 sq km of land in Arunachal Pradesh, which borders Bhutan and Tibet. India in turn says that China is occupying 38,000 sq km of its territory in Kashmir illegally ceded to it by Pakistan.

Analysts said China’s denial of a visa to a government official from Arunachal Pradesh was intended to reinforce its claim to the entire state and not just the disputed tract of land around Tawang it has long asserted to be part of Tibet.

It is not the first occasion on which China has sought to remind India of its continuing claim to this sparsely-populated area of the eastern Himalayas over which the two countries fought a brief and bloody war in 1962.

China’s envoy to India Sun Yuxi said the “entire state was a part of China” last November, just a few days before Chinese president Hu Jintao’s maiden visit to India.

The Indian ministry of external affairs has repeatedly stated that Arunachal Pradesh is an integral part of India.

Beijing has denied visas to officials from the disputed state on several occasions in recent years. Analysts said India’s reaction, in canceling a programme that had the personal support of Manmohan Singh, prime minister, was unprecedentedly firm.

During a trip to India by Chinese premier Wen Jiabao in 2005, India and China agreed on broad principles to settle their decades-long border issue. Although negotiators will meet again in July, few expect any breakthrough ahead of Mr Singh’s visit to Beijing later this year.

The border dispute has not prevented a blossoming of trade and economic ties. The countries are aiming for two-way trade worth $40bn by 2010. Bilateral trade has surged to $17.6bn in 2005/6, from $260m in 1990.

Copyright The Financial Times Limited 2007

May 28, 2007 @ 5:52 pm | Comment

Is it possible to change the board’s setting so the author names precede their comments?

I generally ignore nanhxxxx’s predictable bullcraps, but many times he pastes such long diatribes that I already read some portion of it before I realize it could be his. Then I scroll down the page, oh shit, it sure is him.

Putting author’s name before the comment would help me (and many others) a lot in such situations. I can just skip ahead to the next.

May 29, 2007 @ 3:57 am | Comment

nanheyangrouchuan,

I did not say those treaties will work, but at least sign them. Since according to you, they don’t work and not enforcable, so what’s the harm signing them. Giggles.

I think we Americans keep forgetting that the USA was built on genocide (poor native American), slavery (poor African American), and colonization.

Also, why should we care when a group of people who initially decided to kill or drive out other ethnic groups end up getting killed in the end. However, if anyone starts a war, he/she better pays for the consequences. For example, Palestinian (arab) started the war with Israel (blame the English for this), Chechen Islamic movement, Tibetan armed uprising (surprise, those peace loving salve owning monks fired the first shot; see CIA report), and of course Darfur Rebels who was originally winning (who also started the whole thing) until Janjaweed got armed by Sudanese government. We should just let them fight it out until they get tired of killing each other. Oh yea, I am heartless but far better than the ideoluges who usually start such wars and kill millions.

May 29, 2007 @ 5:11 am | Comment

I concur that Sachs is a controversial figure, especially because of Russia and his sometimes schizophrenic approach to development.

His observation confirms what people have been saying for years: US is using out-of-date foreign policy from the cold war, while China is both using a practical engagement policy and winning friends in the process.

With Africa, it’s not surprising that China is willing to give them sound advice: Africa has a wealth of resources China would love to tap. I don’t believe for a minute China is about charity– no country can put aside self-interest unless they rule the world (ahem, america)– the competition for resources is too intense.

But China has a vested interest in helping Africa succeed– it makes perfect sense: Africa, rich in resources, but poor in every type of infrastructure. Invest now, reap while you go, and down the line. China doesn’t have to invest very much to make a difference, but the short and long term gains outweigh the “controversy.”

While the US uses a unbalanced “human rights” approach to certain random countries in Africa, Darfur, etc– while ignoring the human rights problems of certain friends in the middle east (house of saud, and to a certain extent, isreal)– it also has a history of being unwilling to engage developing countries in a dialogue about ACTUAL development and not IDEOLOGICAL development. “Open market, free, free” doesn’t hold weight with people who don’t have investment capital and know American investors aren’t too good at building infrastructure (Haliburton in Iraq!).

On Balance, the US has not done very much to benefit poor african countries. It has been arrogant enough to criticize China when the US won’t even supply education or personnel to help African agriculture or infrastructure– something China does regularly. But man, I’m so surprised the US keeps taking these stands when their poop is stinking up the whole barn.

You’re behind, America. You’re like the global leader in almost every respect, except you don’t act like a leader, and are acting like you can just “be” like any other country. No responsibility, no “exceptional” engagement.

That, my friend, is hypocrisy.

-Thanks,

KL

May 29, 2007 @ 11:42 am | Comment

Maybe the US stinks but no one is as bloodthirsty as the CCP.

I’d rather get screwed and know I’m being exploited by the US then get screwed in a sneaky brainwashy way by the CCP.

Take the Bush war for example. It’s possible that Bush just felt like going to war with Iraq and so made up some stuff to incite the country’s support…

But a trail was left as there always is and people are putting the peices together and talking about it. Many people are criticizing Bush and his war inside and outside US.

Now take the CCP’s persecution of Falun Gong. Even if the people found out that the leader just felt like torturing all those people for some political effect, the people are so brainwashed by the CCP that they think its better to keep up the torturing rather than find the truth. The CCP has made the Chinese people into freaks who dont know right from wrong…

Look how up in arms people are about one camp that the US has where there may have been some torture to extract confessions as well as some inhumane acts. Thats a few incidents in one or a few camps against terrorism.

Now compare that with China who has a huge number of torture camps and people arent even allowed to know about the number of them or what goes on there.

The CCP openly runs brainwashing centres and openly persecutes people who’s thoughts alone they perceive to be a threat.

They have massacred masses of their population in psychotic communist thought raids and successfully instilled terror in the masses.

How can you compare that to US?

Besides I dont think its correct to say that a person has to first be all perfect before he can criticize, thats just stupid. If a person has a criticism and he’s right, then he’s right.

May 29, 2007 @ 12:16 pm | Comment

Wow I leave for a few months and look what happens…the comments section has transformed into a fascinating little forum of sorts where most people seem to realize that America is often bad, but China is far, far worse.

Anyone here live in Chaoyang qu?

May 30, 2007 @ 12:09 am | Comment

How can you compare that to US?

Because we wipe out almost an entire race, Native American, and used to enslave hundreds thousands of African slaves (trust me terror and torture were all included in addition to lynching). Just look at a detail US map, you will realize there are towns called Lynchburg in the south.

May 30, 2007 @ 1:54 am | Comment

China is not worse than the U.S at the moment.

Iraq is probably the stupidest thing any leader has done in recent times.

Can’t wait for 2008. No more Bush, no more Chen.

May 30, 2007 @ 2:51 am | Comment

Just think about the info blockade campaign of CCP. Without even considering how the lying affects the rest of the world. Inside China you have a huge portion of the worlds population.

The CCp employs a huuuge propaganda department in charge of censorship and distortion, this is carried out within the education system and any facet of information exchange (and they do not limit the info alteration to just China, they have power…). The skewing of information is the basis for the party’s survival. Otherwise, why would they do it?

Fake ideology conjured up to control the masses is synonymous with the party’s “stability”. The party is all about controlling peoples realities.

Have you read 1984? The party had done such a great amount of purging, skewing and falsifying that the reality of the people had totally changed into one conjured up by the dictator.

That is the goal of the CCP. Otherwise why would they be so desperate to make people believe what they want? Look at the “stability” of North Korea! Thats the kind of “stability” that the CCP wants. One where the people suffer like beasts and the ones who have any money at all live solely for the lies of the dictator.

Now comparing THAT to the Bush war would be the stupidest thing we could do!

May 30, 2007 @ 5:48 am | Comment

Now comparing THAT to the Bush war would be the stupidest thing we could do!

Based on how many people have died, Iraq war easily beats CCP control. You think the new generation in China doesn’t know how to go around the firewall. Do you know how many Iraq have died. Last estimate about a year ago is 600,000. I bet today is easily over a million.

Have you watch the movie Black Hawk Down? In the battle of Mogadishui, do you know although 18 american soliders were killed, we killed at least 700 Somali militiamen not including civilians.

Fake ideology conjured up to control the masses is synonymous with the party’s “stability”. The party is all about controlling peoples realities.

Well, that’s your opinion, I am an American citizen and have been here since I was a teenage, I think what CCP has done is very wise. Come on, we have some very loyal watchers of FOX News here.

May 30, 2007 @ 1:54 pm | Comment

Back to China’s approach to developing countries. Here’s the view of one Zambian politician:

“The politician quickly talks himself into a rage. Chinese have little interest in human rights, he says. They are only interested in exploiting Africa’s natural resources, which they have carted off using their own workers and equipment, and without having paid a single kwacha in taxes. Sata sums up his position as follows: “We want the Chinese to leave and the old colonial rulers to return. They exploited our natural resources too, but at least they took care of us. They built schools, taught us their language and brought us the British civilization.”

Another excellent offering from Spiegel. Recommended reading, the whole article is here:

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,484603,00.html

Take a look at the pictures. This image says it all:

http://www.spiegel.de/img/0,1020,880849,00.jpg

Sorry about the elongated links, every time I try the shortening trick my computer throws a tantrum.

May 31, 2007 @ 11:20 am | Comment

“The politician quickly talks himself into a rage. Chinese have little interest in human rights, he says. They are only interested in exploiting Africa’s natural resources, which they have carted off using their own workers and equipment, and without having paid a single kwacha in taxes. Sata sums up his position as follows: “We want the Chinese to leave and the old colonial rulers to return. They exploited our natural resources too, but at least they took care of us. They built schools, taught us their language and brought us the British civilization.”

So that’s why Zambia is one of the poorest nation in the world carrying the largest debt per-capita in the world. Don’t blame China, blame the corrupted politicians in Zambia. I predict if Zata gained power, he will be equal or worse than the current one (the odd is actually very good for my prediction based on Africa history). If I recall correctly, Idi Amin Dada said similar things.

As for the photo, is that the Chinese farmer that moved there. The website is extremely slow…

May 31, 2007 @ 12:25 pm | Comment

Arty,

Yur wrong as far as I know.

CCp has killed over 60 million Chinese (or is responsible for that many unnatural deaths.)

Some say 80 mil some say 60.

The US isn’t the only one who gets in wars, wars are kinda like fights between people on a huge scale as far as I see it.

War sucks, I know, but what the CCP does can’t be compared to a regular war.

The CCP abuses and demeans its own countrymen in order to steal from them their livelihoods.

Thats not like war or a fight. If a war is like a fight, what the CCP does is the grand equivalent to a father raping his children and making sure they think its normal and don’t tell, even to the point where the abused and mentally warped children will become fiends and carry on the behavior and corrupt the whole society.

Lots of people watch FOX??? Geez do I have to be here every minute to make sure your propaganda doesnt hurt people???

I hope no one is buying this. HELLO!?! People are not forced to watch FOX. They can start up their own paper or TV in America. Yeah theres corruption, but the US still has something to stand on. It does ensure to a livable degree peoples right to differences of belief. To agree to disagree and all that cool tolerance and freedom stuff.

That kind of stuff is (or was, how many times has the CCP gone in and made changes?) in Chinas constitution, but the constitution is a joke in China, everything fundamental and universal is corrupt to the point of being a joke in China !

Ha, if Germany has to fear such a dead dog as the stupid CCP, then this world has no quality! That is to say, the CCP is gross and doesnt deserve to exist at all, let alone fool other nations into thinking it has actual governing legitimacy.

May 31, 2007 @ 12:30 pm | Comment

“”We want the Chinese to leave and the old colonial rulers to return. They exploited our natural resources too, but at least they took care of us. They built schools, taught us their language and brought us the British civilization.”

if you honestly believe this you deserve to be shot. are you kidding me? how the fuck is what belgium did in the congo even remotely comparable to what china is doing you ignorant piece of garbage? or what was done to the kikuyu, herero? something like 10 million people MURDERED there and another several million starving to death.

do you even know africa’s colonial past or are you so tied up in western chauvinism that you honestly think genocide of tens of millions and slavery for 400 years is comparable to business relations and bilateral trade?

and the murder and rape is just scratching the surface; you can take out your “blame pie graph” and cut out a big share of darfur/rwanda for colonial racism.

then there’s the whole thing about you know, 90% of the good, arable land going to whites and millions of africans starving to death (congo had a -66% population growth. wow, how “progressive”, “western”, “modern”, and “human.. righteous!”)

not even going to get started on the arab slave trade.

unbelievable. the ccp could use ignoramuses like you in their propaganda wing. don’t hide behind the fact that the quote wasn’t in your words either; you can find a quote of anyone saying anything.

May 31, 2007 @ 1:42 pm | Comment

no really, you’re all seriously messed up if you’re going to compare china’s africa policies with the scramble for africa.

i would break your nose if i were an african. it’d be like comparing the sino-vietnamese war to the holocaust. no, five holocausts in a stictly numbers sense.

it’s not the first time i’ve heard this crap either, lots of “humane” (not to mention very fat, safe, and virus-free) westerners debt gouging africa to death, humiliation and perpetual serfdom have been moaning up a storm with the usual dose of reactionary overexaggeration, hypocrisy, and wild speculation amidst the journalistic color of red scare and yellow peril.

i really wonder what these people would do if they didn’t have like 40 million km^2 of land and the resources in them built over the corpses of native populations, really.

sorry if you bring history into any discussion about china you’re going to lose. you can blame the ccp but it’s indisputable fact that europe was “a cancer” to the world.

once these people actually give a crap about africa, and not @#$! around with their economic incentives to leave them in perpetual debt and squalor, they can have the moral ground to open up their overstuffed mouths and perhaps whine a little in between bites of twinkie and big mac.

we’ll forgive the whole genocide of amerindians, 8 nations alliance bankrupting qing china, genocide of maoris, genocide of native americans, genocide of first nation’s peoples, displacement of siberians, and the annexation of outer manchuria/parts of outer mongolia/sakhalin island for now.

god forbid resources are exchanged without some pompous buffoonery from some world coalition of g8 nazis.

May 31, 2007 @ 1:59 pm | Comment

Arty,

The US isn’t the only one who gets in wars, wars are kinda like fights between people on a huge scale as far as I see it.

Are you digging into history? We are talking about current situation. If you are digging into history, America was built through colonization, followed by mass genocide while enslaver majority of her workers, followed by Jim Crow movement etc. Do you want to count the bodies? We have wipe an entire tribe and race out of existance.

Perhaps you don’t get the FOX News reference. What scares me the most is that people actually turn into FOX to watch shows like the O’Reily Factor and believing his/her opinions as facts.

May 31, 2007 @ 4:35 pm | Comment

“if you honestly believe this you deserve to be shot. are you kidding me? how the fuck is what belgium did in the congo even remotely comparable to what china is doing you ignorant piece of garbage?”

Interesting. Did you read the article from which the quote was taken? I thought not. If you had you’d realise your beef is with the Zambian who said it. That’s right. Zambian. African born and bred.

There is growing, and dare I say justified, resentment about China’s ‘lording it over the natives’ attitude in Africa. Disagree? Read the article.

“i would break your nose if i were an african. it’d be like comparing the sino-vietnamese war to the holocaust.”

If you look Chinese, most Africans would break YOUR nose for trying. This ‘comparison’ you speak of doesn’t exist outside of a mescalin trip.

The old colonial powers are no longer colonists. Supposedly, as a race, we’ve moved on since those days of exploitation. But wait; here comes China with all this crap about ‘win-win’ and ‘strategic partnerships’ and sets Africa back a couple of centuries. Meet the new boss; same as the old boss – only worse.

Take a dash, read the article, and give yourself a few days to regroup.

May 31, 2007 @ 6:43 pm | Comment

“…the inflow of investment from China is a concrete demonstration that the Western model of development has failed. He spoke in February 2007 of the need to build “a strong developmental state” complaining that “neo-liberal reforms” advocated by the World Bank and others have failed to “generate the kind of growth they sought.” The only kind of good governance that takes root, he suggested, is home grown, not imposed from outside. The implication is that African leaders should worry less about meeting demands for transparency, accountability, rule of law, and other such “neo-liberal” objectives and focus instead on economic growth. With China in the picture, they will find the resources they need. …”

— Prime Minister Meles Zenawi of Ethiopia

http://www.fpif.org/fpiftxt/4068

May 31, 2007 @ 11:04 pm | Comment

“…With China in the picture, they will find the resources they need. …”

With China in the picture, they will lose the resources they have.

June 1, 2007 @ 12:01 am | Comment

“Supposedly, as a race, we’ve moved on since those days of exploitation.”

No, you haven’t. Particularly, you’re still squatting on Native American territory. At least China’s aid produces results: economic growth. Though they should try to encourage the leaders to be better rulers, the African Colonization thing isn’t over until the former colonial powers fix the damage they’ve done. And they haven’t, showing themselves to be the selfish pieces of shit they are.

June 1, 2007 @ 12:04 am | Comment

http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pipa/articles/home_related/168.php?nid=&id=&pnt=168&lb=hmpg

i guess black man doesn’t know what’s good for him.

June 1, 2007 @ 12:06 am | Comment

“No, you haven’t. Particularly, you’re still squatting on Native American territory.”

“You’re”??? Besides, the Han Chinese do quite a lot of squatting themselves, and they’re not particular about where they do it.

“i guess black man doesn’t know what’s good for him.”

He knows China isn’t.

June 1, 2007 @ 12:18 am | Comment

well apparently not since if you even bothered to read anything besides nationalist socialist tripe from america, like the opinion of africans, you’d see that say, 72% of senegalese have positive opinions of china.

i’m sorry for your white man’s burden.

“the Han Chinese do quite a lot of squatting themselves”

lol, the typical “china does it too in much smaller amounts!! therefore it’s justified!” routine.

no, tibet =/= siberia, canada, australia, new zealand, america, brazil, argentina, and south africa.

if you didn’t notice the latter is just a LITTLE bit bigger and no genocide of Tibetan or destruction of Tibetan culture (aside from turning some of them into busisnessmen or people who aren’t starving) has really occurred.

once again China shows itself to be on a more moral developmental path than Europe’s.

June 1, 2007 @ 12:29 am | Comment

All western press basically boils down to whites being pissed off they can no longer treat Africans with a racist, condescending attitude: Westerners have faded into irrelevance in Africa, and this strikes a sour note with the old slave master, e.g. “how dare my former slaves get uppity with me (gasp) and start talking to these yellow bastards.”

That’s pretty much what it all boils down to.

A foreign policy based on racism is doomed to failure- not exactly rocket science. If you’re not happy about the way things have turned out, you only have yourself to blame. And if you don’t want to blame yourself, do what Malcolm X told you to do: blame your grandfather and your grandmother.

June 1, 2007 @ 1:13 am | Comment

China’s economic model only promotes benefits for corrupt officials in Africa. African workers don’t get jobs because chinese companies bring in Chinese workers to the factories. The mines run by the chinese are horribly dangerous, even more so than the legendary mines in China itself.

One would have thought that things couldn’t get any worse in Africa until the chinese showed up.
And now Africans are probably using chinese toothpaste and eating food processed in China.

The US and Europe have been making amends for past wrongs, China never admits wrong therefore never has to make amends.

Bad, bad China.

June 1, 2007 @ 1:37 am | Comment

whine all you want but africa’s economy is growing, infrastructure is being built, and they’re rapidly getting to a point where they will have control over their own resources rather than g8 nations.

too fucking bad if you don’t like it. america and europe haven’t been making amends at all, their “aid” is something that screws economic incentives, subjects africans to the volatility of foreign marekts, gouges them with debt that simply do not deserve to be paid back, and puts them in constant state of subsistence so they will need to export resources just to survive.

and no, schools, roads, telecom, satellites, etc don’t only benefit “corrupt leaders” as much as your wet dreams and neonazi journalists say.

though, china should make sure to treat africans as best as possible, and then simply encourage them to simply refuse to pay their debts to the g8.

June 1, 2007 @ 3:44 am | Comment

One would have thought that things couldn’t get any worse in Africa until the chinese showed up. And now Africans are probably using chinese toothpaste and eating food processed in China.

So after reading the article stuart gave to us. I look at Zambia data in the CIA factbook, it looks like Zambia is doing pretty good last few years after China gets invovled.

June 1, 2007 @ 7:03 am | Comment

“….. wherease the Chinese just deal with you, you represent your country, they represent their own interests, and you do business.”

– Ugandan President

cf. westerners: they do to African countries what they do to the residents of Harlem- keep them in economic bondage by giving them loans which cannot possibly be paid back (akin to usury). When the s**t inevitably hits the fan, the borrower is doomed to economic slavehood- the repo man steps in and demands everything.

In other words, with the Chinese, you know what you’re getting- some guy who you know wants something from you and is willing to sit down at the bargaining table with you to try to get it. With westerners, you get a smile, a pat on the back, talk about democracy, freedom, and some “aid money.”

I’d hate for the Chinese to be playing the “aid” game (who knows how their loans will play out), but if they do, they’ve had the best of teachers.

============

John Perkins: Confessions of an Economic Hit Man

http://www.amazon.com/Confessions-Economic-Hit-Man-Currents/dp/1576753018

“Perkins writes that his economic projections cooked the books Enron-style to convince foreign governments to accept billions of dollars of loans from the World Bank and other institutions to build dams, airports, electric grids, and other infrastructure he knew they couldn’t afford. The loans were given on condition that construction and engineering contracts went to U.S. companies. Often, the money would simply be transferred from one bank account in Washington, D.C., to another one in New York or San Francisco. The deals were smoothed over with bribes for foreign officials, but it was the taxpayers in the foreign countries who had to pay back the loans. When their governments couldn’t do so, as was often the case, the U.S. or its henchmen at the World Bank or International Monetary Fund would step in and essentially place the country in trusteeship, dictating everything from its spending budget to security agreements and even its United Nations votes. It was, Perkins writes, a clever way for the U.S. to expand its ’empire’ at the expense of Third World citizens.”

June 1, 2007 @ 1:53 pm | Comment

Stuart, my friend, what do you think of what Will had just posted (even if only half in it is true)?

June 1, 2007 @ 2:10 pm | Comment

Vancouver Sun: Teachers from B.C. muzzled in China (this is no isolated incident, these manuals are supposed to be secret, this is just to prove to people who dont believe that China is a brainwashed nation where peoples thinking is guided by what the communist party wants people to think) http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/news/story.html?id=cd4e2634-fe41-4786-86b8 -d2c61ae82af5 Two B.C. schools in China instructed their B.C.-certified teachers last year not to mention controversial topics such as Tiananmen Square, Tibet, the Dalai Lama, or Taiwan in the classroom and to feign ignorance if students asked questions. The teachers were also told to avoid talking about human rights but if the topic came up, they should direct criticism towards other countries, especially the U.S., according to confidential information distributed to staff at Grand Canadian Academy in Tongxiang and the B.C. Maodun High School. ”When dealing with such [human rights] topics, talk about other countries and avoid China,” says the schools’ 2006 handbook, which was leaked to The Vancouver Sun. “Chinese government is happy if we use U.S. as an example and be critical about its wrongdoings in human rights.” The confidential section of the handbook, titled Political Sensitivity in China, says the increase in foreign high schools in China has prompted the Chinese government to apply “more strict ideological scrutiny over the textbooks and instructions in these schools.” It cautions teachers to avoid talking about Tiananmen Square, Taiwan, Tibet, Falun Gong, Japan, China’s democracy and Chinese leaders, especially Mao Zedong. Regarding the Tiananmen Square protests in 1989 that resulted in many civilian deaths, the handbook says the Chinese government and the western world hold entirely different opinions about the event and the Chinese government wants people to forget about it. “Totally avoid this issue. If asked about it, ‘I don’t know’ is the safest answer.” Teachers were told that Taiwan should be referred to as a region of China, not a separate country, and Tibet and the Dalai Lama should never be mentioned. The warning about Falun Gong is sterner. “This is a forbidden religion in China for its political tendency. Totally avoid this issue. If asked about it, ‘I don’t know’ is the safest answer.” The handbook cautions teachers about any lesson involving Japan. “China and Japan are enemies in tradition and friends in appearance. Currently their relationship is tense because 1.) Japan claims to protect Taiwan, 2.) official worship to the dead soldiers killed in the war with China, and 3.) the territory of the East Sea. Be careful about China’s sentiment about Nanjing massacre,” the handbook says. In speaking about China’s leaders, the teachers should avoid all criticisms, it adds. ”The people of every country tend to think their own government is lousy. However, in the “family-type” cultural structure like China, the local people may feel offended when the outsiders are critical about their government leaders, including the past leaders like Chairman Mao and the current leaders. ”Avoid negative comments even when the students and Chinese colleagues are being critical about them.” Yeah sure they’ll feel offended!HAH what a load, more like they might get a clue!

June 1, 2007 @ 3:01 pm | Comment

why is the formatting so screwed up? Owell, please read through it anyway, it explains a lot.

June 1, 2007 @ 3:04 pm | Comment

@ferins

“…72% of senegalese have positive opinions of china.”

Asked at gunpoint, perhaps. Let’s talk about the 28%.

“i’m sorry for your white man’s burden.”

Your agenda is beginning to show – just beneath that chip on your shoulder: this is not a racial debate.

“once again China shows itself to be on a more moral developmental path than Europe’s.”

Any vestige of credibility you had left just vaporised with that comment.

“…and then simply encourage them to simply refuse to pay their debts to the g8.”

Ah yes. Time to export China’s most potent foreign policy weapon: promise to do something/take action/pay in exchange for technology/favourable trade conditions/Olympics – and when you’ve got what you want (and this is the really smart part), simply renege on your end of the deal. So clever. Such moral leadership.

@will

“Westerners have faded into irrelevance in Africa, and this strikes a sour note with the old slave master, e.g. “how dare my former slaves get uppity with me (gasp) and start talking to these yellow bastards.” ”

Again, you’re using past transgressions to justify China’s contemporary exploitation of the same people. Further, you might want to rethink referring to the Chinese as “yellow bastards.”

@Arty

“So after reading the article stuart gave to us. I look at Zambia data in the CIA factbook, it looks like Zambia is doing pretty good last few years after China gets invovled.”

Imagine how well they would be doing if they took back control of their own resources.

June 1, 2007 @ 4:00 pm | Comment

“Again, you’re using past transgressions to justify China’s contemporary exploitation of the same people. Further, you might want to rethink referring to the Chinese as “yellow bastards.” ”

Stu, my friend: The world bank and IMF are still up to the same tricks- that never went away. Its just less effective now. The problem with the economic bondage model is that it doesn’t work when someone else can offer loans.

On another note: noone is going to look at a criminal (with a straight face) talking about forgetting “past transgressions”, especially when his crime has been 400 years of slave trade. But there is a solution.

Blacks in the US have been talking about reparations for some time, to no avail. If you can show me you have been for reparations for slaves, out of *your* taxpayer money, then we can start to discuss like intelligent human beings.

Give the Africans a real reason to forget the past: intelligent people will.

June 1, 2007 @ 4:53 pm | Comment

“The people of every country tend to think their own government is lousy. However, in the “family-type” cultural structure like China, the local people may feel offended when the outsiders are critical about their government leaders, including the past leaders like Chairman Mao and the current leaders. “Avoid negative comments even when the students and Chinese colleagues are being critical about them.” Yeah sure they’ll feel offended!HAH what a load, more like they might get a clue!”

I’m not sure “the people of every country tend to think their own government is lousy,” but this is certainly a reasonably prevalent feeling around the globe. I do agree with the article that Chinese people tend to get very defensive when you criticize their government. Criticisms of the CCP’s handling of history or Xinjiang are met with attacks on Bush. Many Chinese are not able to separate attacks on their government from attacks on their country/race. I am not trying to say, however, that people from other countries are able to do this. Most recently I lived in Japan and I think they are worse at admitting when their country has done something wrong. (This insight is rather unsurprising.) Most Chinese people I talk to will freely say that their government is corrupt and repressive, though because of the repressiveness they lack specific examples, those who have specific examples are usually less willing to talk. However, if you come in with your own criticism, the Chinese don’t want to hear it. (I can say my father’s a drunk, but you better keep your mouth shut.) They will emphasize the atrocities of other countries (Japan and the US mostly) and the good acts of a few CCP members who have been made into saints (most notably Zhou Enlai, what a charade that is). Considering the situation, the requirements/advice of teachers manual makes sense in a lot of ways.

Isn’t that awful? The situation is such that he censorship and mandated feigned ignorance of the BC teachers makes sense. Perhaps it is the fact that I am not shocked by this censorship that is the worst thing about China today: we see the repressiveness and just shrug our shoulders (unless it happens to some nice Canadians.)

Of course, it’s hard to know what viable alternatives there are. Africa is in a similar position. Yes, China’s going to bleed them for their resources, but really what other choice is there. Starve to death? I know this has no statistical relevance, but just about all of the Africans I’ve known have a positive image of China’s actions in Africa. I worked in Tokyo for about three months this winter and (except for a few Brazilians and one Japanese) all my co-workers were African. (They were mostly Nigerian, though there were some Ghanans, some Senegalese, and some Sudanese.) They don’t view China as the land of milk and honey. They know there is very little human rights here, but they see actual economic help and progress (whatever that means) coming their way. They say America has already lost Africa and China is winning them over. I don’t know if the sentiments are the same back in Africa, but this is what they say.

love,

milse

June 1, 2007 @ 6:51 pm | Comment

sorry that was so long and rambling, by the way. I’m new to this.

June 1, 2007 @ 6:54 pm | Comment

“They say America has already lost Africa and China is winning them over. I don’t know if the sentiments are the same back in Africa, but this is what they say.”

These Africans actually purport this ? 400 years of slavery and colonialism, present day economic bondage, and the US still hasn’t won the hearts and minds of Africa ? Ingrates, every last one of them.

The real isse here, if you don’t mind me saying, is that there are people on this earth that actually consider this a surprise and need to “find out” that they aren’t beloved the world over. Its called: ideological indoctrination based on one idea: racial superiority.

The CPP does not have the sole rights to ideological indoctrination. Compared to the New York Times, the People’s Daily is child’s play propaganda- did the Times even run Sach’s article ? Doubtful, but I’d like someone to surprise me.

June 1, 2007 @ 8:26 pm | Comment

“Your agenda is beginning to show – just beneath that chip on your shoulder: this is not a racial debate.”

Call it culture if you wish then, or some other euphemism, if you want to hide behind a disgusting mockery of post-modern pseudo-egalitarian thought and insult everyone’s intelligence. This ties into all of your (and nhyrc’s) reactionary spoutings; leave the paternalistic attitude at the door. I don’t think anyone in the developing world needs talking down from some mellowed-out league of former (and current, in the case of gorge arbusto) gangster/terrorist states.

Please tell me you aren’t too obtuse to see that China doesn’t have the same horrible track record of Europe (mainly, the G8). Sure, it’s easy to create a network of exclusive economies based on resources from colonial holdings and then slowly mellow out. After they’ve gotten rich and fat, maybe they can eventually afford to let “negro” have some shred of dignity and semi-human treatment after 400 years.

But po’ ne-gro n’ africa sho’ don’ know what good fo’ him no how!

Why don’t you try posting objective facts and not neonazi/bush propaganda about this issue? It would be helpful, thanks. I don’t believe Senegalese are held at gunpoint on random pollings about the Chinese. Maybe in your twisted hollyweird wet dreams of Chinese Hitler.

“Imagine how well they would be doing if they took back control of their own resources.”

Go look it up in their past demographics and growth trends.

“Again, you’re using past transgressions to justify China’s contemporary exploitation of the same people.”

China’s net effect on Africa is positive, so far.

June 1, 2007 @ 9:42 pm | Comment

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrice_Lumumba

Ah, democracy-loving america and europe! literally pays to murder a democratically elected leader and places a dictator in his place.

Not unlike the CIA’s meddling in Tibet.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammed_Mossadeq

More love of democracy! Americans get to vote on where your oil goes.

Susan Sontag was 100% right.

June 1, 2007 @ 10:33 pm | Comment

Imagine how well they would be doing if they took back control of their own resources.

Actually, Mexican did that to the major oil companies for their oil fields after US companies built them, and guess what? The workers and average civilians lives didn’t improve at all. All the money went to few people (even my Mexican friends admit that if they don’t come to US, there is absolute no chance for them in current Mexican society). After all these years, the oil fields are so badly managed, some of them can’t even produce any oil due to bad equipments. Now Mexico is asking the US companies to come back again, do you know what’s the anwer? Hell NO! So now I give you a real life example, you got anything more to add staurt about your argument?

June 2, 2007 @ 4:49 am | Comment

Bleak future for Beijing’s heritage http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/6709099.stm 
 The “communist ie, atheist, materialist way stinks like poisonous air! yeah I’m not saying that other countries arent pathetically focused on the material gains, but the CCP is the leader at zealously pursuing and ignoring all but material gain and selfishness. I’ll be back later to sight some facts…

June 2, 2007 @ 6:23 am | Comment

Heres a follow up to the article about foreign teachers haing to follow the party s propaganda in their teaching… Censored B.C. schools in China ‘sub par’ http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/news/westcoastnews/story.html?id=ee619f15-afdb-43ca-8de8-d0835882f4c2 
> > B.C. schools in China are making false claims if they say they are > delivering the B.C. curriculum while also avoiding hot topics such > as Tiananmen Square, China’s relationship with Taiwan and its > human-rights record, educators said Thursday. > > Schools that are unwilling to tackle controversial issues are > delivering a watered-down education that is not worthy of a B.C. > graduation diploma, said Charles Ungerleider, an education > professor at the University of B.C. > > “An education is designed to lead you out from the narrow confines > of your previous knowledge and experience,” said Ungerleider, who > was deputy education minister from 1998 to 2001. “If education > doesn’t do that, it has failed you.” I’m pointing this out because people who receive propaganda educations are being cheated. People in China under these weird directives are being trained as tools in the partys endeavor to control… Milse, The thing is that we have to ask ourselves, or find out what is the reason for the lying and cheating? How does the CCP benefit by warping peoples minds? What is the truth of the matters? Thats what I want to examine.

June 2, 2007 @ 6:42 am | Comment

Official surveys in China indicate that there are 3,220 Chinese people with personal assets exceeding 100 million yuan, but 2,932 of those persons are the children of high-ranking CPC cadres and government officials. Moreover, as of the end of 2004, nearly 200 million farmers in China had lost their farmland because of the Chinese authorities’ unjust expropriation of land. These farmers have been unable to find employment and also lack even minimal social protections. The aforementioned problems arise from the unrestricted privileges of China’s high-ranking party cadres and government officials. As such, there has been insufficient political protection for the rights and interest of the general public in China. http://www.unionleader.com/article.aspx?headline=Chen-yuan+Tung%3A+China+deno unces+U.S.+human+rights+'abuses'+while+persecuting+its+own+people&articleId=f 199ff10-b74d-40b3-bebc-17baa670a23a Beijing's criticism of the human rights situation in the United States only further highlights the guilty conscience and absurdity of the Chinese government in this regard. In February, Parade magazine published a list of the ”World’s 10 Worst Dictators” based on reports by global human-rights organizations, including Human Rights Watch, Amnesty International, Reporters Without Borders, and the U.S. Department of State. Chinese President Hu Jintao ranked fourth on its list, up two places from the 2006 list. As Hu rises in his ranking on the list, the human rights situation in China worsens. I’ll change computers and get rid of this ridiculous formatting problem soon.

June 2, 2007 @ 7:01 am | Comment

I checked New York Times propagnada on the reporters without borders site and i got a lot about their journalists being harrassed and jailed in China, but the most clear about propaganda was about the 9/11 Iraq situation. watched a good PBS documentary about the zealotry that the US media fell into during that time (and is probly continuing to a lesser degree now since so much info has upturned) There are always motives and often emotions when people put out communications and the new york times and other papers cannot be considered objective necessarily. BUT… If you check propaganda Xinhua on RSF, you get this report among files and files of documentation of Chinas propaganda media. There are people in this forum who are playing people for fools. God bless organizations and people who care about the truth and help us not be victims of CCP unbridled antihuman lying! Between the pull of patriotism and self-censorship http://www.rsf.org/article.php3?id_article=2533 Xinhua: the world�s biggest propaganda agency http://www.rsf.org/article.php3?id_article=15172

June 2, 2007 @ 7:48 am | Comment

“I don’t think anyone in the developing world needs talking down from some…gangster/terrorist states.”

A line straight out of the CCP apologist’s handbook on how to deal with outside criticism. You can deny and disguise all you want, but it’s clear who gave you your ‘education.’

Please try and add something original to the issue, even if it means putting down your handbook and replacing it with a bottle of decent liquor.

June 2, 2007 @ 12:20 pm | Comment

So, I’m confused, what is the argument here? Are we arguing whether or not the CCP represses its people? I don’t think anyone in the world (except for a couple thousand fanatics) would say that they don’t.

Snow, you want to know why the communists censor and lie. That’s easy, the same reason any one else censors and lies (this includes the US and Japan, to start with developed nations): if you control what the people know, to some degree you control what they think. The CCP has to do this to retain control over this sprawling, disorganized nation. I’m not sure this point is up for debate. (Though I’m sure someone will contradict me.)

I think the more interesting question is what should be done. This one’s a lot harder and I definitely don’t have an answer. Do we implement full-scale democracy right now? What does that even mean? How would you even conceive going about it? Would the Chinese people want that? An important part of democracy, I think, is that people, and I mean large portions of the people, have to really know what it is and want it before it will work. (As a side note, it’s interesting to look at Bhutan, which is right now implementing democracy because the king decreed it. Most of the people are against it. I really wonder how that will work out. But I don’t think Bhutan is comparable to China.) Looking at the interview with the Tiananmen demonstrator and drawing from my personal experiences, I don’t know that most Chinese want democracy, or even really know what it entails. Most Chinese I talk to are uncomfortable with the idea of politicians openly rangling over different positions. I’m American. I like open debate. But that doesn’t mean it’s what everyone wants. Or at least not just yet. So, what do we do? I’m of the wait and watch camp, but maybe that’s because I don’t have any other bright ideas. I’m open to suggestions.

As for Africa, it’s obvious China is only in this for the resources. So, again, the question is: what other plans do you have? For China, this move makes perfect sense, which I think was the point of Richard’s header. (Of course, it only works if China can keep staving off international critics of its participation in dictatorships. Though, I think China will find a way to reel in things a bit in places like the Sudan to keep the harshest critics off its back.) For most African countries there aren’t a whole lot of other alternatives. Western aid is too focused on rhetoric (as Sachs pointed out). So, what else is there? Just turn down money for infrastructure? There is talk of finding an “African way,” but what does that mean? Does that mean turning away all foreign investments? Is there one modern country that has pulled itself up out of poverty without foreign investments? My modern world history is very incomplete, so I’d love an example. (And, man, is that question paternalistic.) I realize that a large part of the Chinese money goes to propping up dictatorships that often mirror the Chinese system, thus stifling the natural growth of an “African way,” but I really don’t think just leaving them alone is an option that has very many benefits for anybody. Again, I’d love to compare this to an example of a poor country that pulled itself up on it’s own.

Sorry for the rambling again.

milse

June 2, 2007 @ 3:44 pm | Comment

but it’s clear who gave you your ‘education.’

Hey Stuart how about my Mexico example. I am going down to Tijuana today, and I am just about to tell my Mexican friends that some poeple think average Mexican got any benefit out of nationalizing their oil industry. I know I will get a big laugh out of this.

Btw, I am educated in a gangster (definitely)/terrorist (depending on the definition) states if you mean the USA.

June 3, 2007 @ 4:37 am | Comment