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Love your comments on some of the events. Really cool and fresh

December 13, 2007 @ 12:07 am | Comment

Anything to fan the flames of nationalism and anti-Japanese feelings. Predicting many assaults on Japanese and Japanese businesses after this gets nation wide release in China.

December 13, 2007 @ 1:00 am | Comment

NanHe, part of the reason that anti-Japanese sentiments are so easily raised (some would say manipulated) in China is the lack of acknowledgment of this tragedy by the rest of the world. Things like this need to be brought into the bright light of historical memory.

I have heard that there are plans to make a fictionalized version centered around the German diplomat who saved so many lives in Nanking. I’ve always thought that would make a great film.

December 13, 2007 @ 1:46 am | Comment

OtherLisa,
It isn’t a lack of acknowledgement, it’s more that Nanking’s scale is eclipsed by so many other civilian massacres from the 20th century.

From the link, I understand that the producers of the film realized this, and are promoting the film as a general anti-war film, not as an anti-Japanese film or even a film that focusses on Nanking itself as uniquely horrible.

December 13, 2007 @ 4:47 am | Comment

Boo,

Somehow I doubt that was the reason for lack of acknowledgement. Many many atrocities of the 20th century were noted and few were shown as much apathy as Nanking.

Nanking was ignored because it was not politically kosher to sympathize with the Chinese Communist. Nobody is going to pull skeleton out of the closet against the democratic Japan. Simply didn’t serve the interest of the “free world”. It really wasn’t until after the end of cold war when this issue is allowed to come to the fore.

For the Chinese nationalist psyche, the international apathy is/was duely noted.

December 13, 2007 @ 5:09 am | Comment

madge

December 13, 2007 @ 6:48 am | Comment

Anything to fan the flames of nationalism and anti-Japanese feelings. Predicting many assaults on Japanese and Japanese businesses after this gets nation wide release in China.

If Japan makes laws to punish holocaust denial, WWII war crime denial, etc. like German and now EU did. It will be very hard to fan the flames.

Oh I voted No on banning Nanhe in the cupofcha.com

December 13, 2007 @ 7:14 am | Comment

Falen,
Winners write the history, so in that larger sense you are correct that US/allied massacres get less attention than they deserve. Japan is unusual in that it wasn’t an ally, but switched over so completely after the war. However, I don’t understand this:

For the Chinese nationalist psyche, the international apathy is/was duely noted.

Is hurting the Chinese nationalist psyche the real tragedy that we must redress?

December 13, 2007 @ 8:17 am | Comment

“For the Chinese nationalist psyche, the international apathy is/was duely noted.”

It’s interesting to note though, that the Chinese government itself wasn’t too interested in the massacre till the 80s. Wasn’t it Mao who once said, that the Communists owe the Japanese something as without them they would not have had a chance against the GMD?

Here is the link to the film about John Rabe, “The Good Nazi”, other Lisa: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1124377/

It will be released next year. Just saw a documentary based on his diary. Very moving. And a quite sad story. He seemed not to have understood the basis of Hitlers politics and worldview. When he came back to Germany in 1938 he thought his diary and a film of the atrocities a friend shot would change the attitude of Hitler towards the Japanese.
Didn’t know that the guy was up to something on a much bigger scale.

December 13, 2007 @ 9:34 am | Comment

I have been reading Chinese media since 1950’s. I first encountered the Nanjing story on Chinese media was in 1980’s. No one talked about it. I don’t think it was the international community which try to ignore the story.

December 13, 2007 @ 10:08 am | Comment

“If Japan makes laws to punish holocaust denial, WWII war crime denial, etc. like German and now EU did. It will be very hard to fan the flames.”

Making holocaust denial illegal is a grave free speech violation and in the country with the thickest political ties to Isreal (the US), it is not illegal.

And why is it that Mao refused the compensation that MacAurthur forced Japan to pay? I would think because Mao didn’t really want to give Japan a chance to apologize, he saw Japan as a useful “external enemy” and called Japan just that when it invaded and began to pummel the GMD.

Beijing also did a great job at hiding the $30 billion in almost zero interest, unconditional loans that Japan has been giving China for the past 30 odd years. When news of those loans broke around the time of the anti-Japanese riots, many Chinese I know where shocked and furious at Beijing taking Japanese money under the table.

Arty: I voted you most likely to fail.

December 13, 2007 @ 10:25 am | Comment

If you want to play the number game, the 30 billion zero-interest loan was a a drop in the bucket compare to the “war reparation” that Japan stole from China since the first Sino-Japanese War to expand her Navy which was in term used to bully China more for even more money.

December 13, 2007 @ 10:37 am | Comment

Why don’t you go watch the movie nanheyangrouchuan? I’d imagine you’ll really enjoy it seeing the evil Chinese getting gutted, decapitated and raped. Makes a pleasant watch for your whole family. I bet you wished the Japanese had “finished the job”… a pity they didn’t…

December 13, 2007 @ 10:42 am | Comment

I’m with Nanhe on this one, for sure. Anything to fan the flames of hatred, and to attempt to cover up the fact that the Chinese Communist Party is in fact the biggest killer of Chinese people in history! It’s just like the demonization of colonialism in order to deny the fact that most Chinese would have given an arm and a leg to live in Hong Kong during the colonial period rather than China.

No one talks about the massive aid that Japan has given China, no one talks about how the corrupt sons and daughters of the current warlords in Beijing who think “stability” is so important (meaning the complete foreclosure of a liberal and open China) literally bathe in the blood of the Chinese people who have died since the Party took power in 1949.
Wanna hear a horrible story you probably haven’t heard about? Read Zheng Yi’s “Scarlet Memorial” to learn about how Chinese officials killed and cannibalized “counterrevolutionaries.”
When will China allow people to talk about this?
BS, seriously.

December 13, 2007 @ 11:33 am | Comment

five troopers from the 101st Airborne Division raped and murdered of a 14 year old Iraqi girl, and murdered of three of her family members, including a 5-year-old girl.

Suppose Nanhe (or kevinsomewhere) is a 10 years old boy in this family, who survived because he was hiding in a closet.

question for nanhe: these five troopers have showed regret, and they probably have done that because they were scared after terrorists shoot them from nowhere. They were under heavy mental pressures. You are already 10 years old nanhe, you should be able to walk out of the hatred. Can you pardon the troopers ?

question for Kevinsomewhere is: have you forgotten the thousands of people killed by sadam, who murdered way more people than the troopers did. Why don’t go to library and look up how many people were killed by sadam, instead crying over your mere 4 family members ???

eight years later nanhe grows up and think he can have a peaceful talk with those troopers. Nanhe found them, but four troopers don’t remember they did that, and the one who remembers found it annoying that nanhe still won’t let go because, anyway, nanhe’s grandfather Mr. Mao has thanked the troopers for making them famous all over the world.

Sorry, too damn long story. A f*cking waste of your time.

December 13, 2007 @ 12:33 pm | Comment

@kevinnolongerinpudong

I can’t believe you Westerners are buying into the notion that the Chinese government is fanning the hatred toward the Japanese. What utter nonsense! The anti-Japanese sentiment is genuine among the ordinary people. The government have to show that they are with the people, they are actually trying to control it, it’s hard!

Imagine yourself as Hu Jintao, what would be your ultimate goal? Drive the US out of east Asia, right? So would you prefer a friendly Japan that is under the influence of China and without US troops stationed there, or a hostile Japan under the US influence? It’s a nobrainer!

China’s ultimate goal in north-east Asia is economic integration, which includes China, Japan, North and South Korea, Russia and perhaps Taiwan in the future. Of course, there are many pieces in this puzzle, Japan is one of them. China is Japan’s No. 1 trading partner, and it will only grow bigger!

Trust me, the Nanking Massacre issue will be very visible in the West when China and Japan get closer. The US congress might even pass declaration to condemn it when that time comes. Politics is a funny thing.

Get it?

December 13, 2007 @ 12:47 pm | Comment

Yo, all you great minds out there. What d’y’all make of the movie:
“Lions for Lambs?”
(starring Robert Redford, Meryl Streep, Tom Cruise)

Hmm….you gotta a point there….

“….the Nanking Massacre issue will be very visible in the West when China and Japan get closer. The US congress might even pass declaration to condemn it when that time comes. Politics is a funny thing.”Posted by: AC at December 13, 2007 12:47 PM

December 13, 2007 @ 1:00 pm | Comment

Here’s what I think of Lions doing all the heavy lifting and dying for Washington Lambs?

Not a very entertaining movie but one that’ll keep you thinking long after wards.

One line that stood out for me was what Redford(liberal political science prof) said, “The problem is not with the people who started this, the problem is with us.”

Carnahan , the movie’s scriptwriter commented in an interview, “Politicians bank on public apathy, and the film ends up as a call to action for people to simply become more engaged. The film also strikes out at the media, not only for its role in the War on Terror, but also for the way journalism has changed over the years….I really wanted to drive home to people that as we go about our daily lives — maybe our best and brightest men and women — are in uniform and fighting for their lives and dying in places that, you could make an argument, might not be worth even one American life…How many more people are going to die and at what number do we actually start to pay attention in some sort of civic concerted way? I thought it would be 1,000, I thought it would be 2,000, but we’re getting into the 4,000- range now.”

I think some people might be surprised/disappointed at the movie’s measured tone (no fire fanning) since it is addressing a timely political issue —yes, interestng discussion rather than yelling matches.

I’m looking forward to watching “Nanking.”

December 13, 2007 @ 3:47 pm | Comment

Making holocaust denial illegal is a grave free speech violation and in the country with the thickest political ties to Isreal (the US), it is not illegal.

So I guess EU no longer have free speech. Did you read the news lately? EU is adopting German and Austria law on holocaust denial illegal. I think outlawing specific speech with extreme detailed laws is the best way to prevent repeating of history. My personal opinion, of course, and now probably the majority opinion of the Western Euro. US has a similar law, I will let you guess which one. You could get prosecuted as a felon if you write or speak about this act. It has been ruled that it is not a violation of US consituition. It is related to US president. So what is it Nanhe??

Arty: I voted you most likely to fail.

Are we still in high school :)? Oh wait maybe you are.

December 13, 2007 @ 4:26 pm | Comment

I am also with nanhe on this one. the chinese can take their victim mentality and stick where the sun doesn’t shine. the ccp fans the flames of anti-japanese sentiment by talking continually of what the japanese did 70 years ago in their textbooks, and nothing of the money they have given and their behaviour post ww2. coming from the people who say the us started the korean war, the vietnamese started the sino-vietnamese war and the indians started the sino-indian war and who say that the tibetans are really happy with the way they were treated and the chinese are the moral guardians of the world this hypocrisy is stunning. i don’t care who makes the film, no film should show any sympathy until they get their house in order and stop lying.

secondly, why does everyone accept the ccp version of events? 200,000-300,000? really? also this trumpeting of iris chang who has known plagiarism issues. her name would be mud if she hadn’t killed herself.

i am so so tired of hearing this rubbish.

December 13, 2007 @ 4:33 pm | Comment

“the moral guardians of the world this hypocrisy is stunning. i don’t care who … they get their house in order and stop lying…why does everyone accept the _____ version of events?.i am so so tired of hearing this rubbish.”

LOL! I dunno how many times I’ve heard/read the exact same phrases above from critics of the West.

Wow, AC, it’s already happening…

“Trust me, the Nanking Massacre issue will be very visible in the West when China and Japan get closer. The US congress might even pass declaration to condemn it when that time comes.”
Posted by: AC

December 13, 2007 @ 4:59 pm | Comment

“secondly, why does everyone accept the ccp version of events? 200,000-300,000? really?” Si

It is not only the ccp version. it is also a version from the International Military Tribunal for the Far East (IMTFE).

but Si your question is a good one because the witnesses did not count the 300000 one by one or take a picture each. so what were they doing then ?

Si why are you not elected to be the president of Iran ? why not ?

December 13, 2007 @ 5:23 pm | Comment

@ac

if the chinese govt is really trying to get closer to japan, they could start by toning down the textbooks. the reason why the situation is so inflamed is because of the ccp opened this can of worms in the 80s. perhaps they can no longer control the situation, however it is hard to see how they are cracking down on anti-japanese sentiment.

@blueplanet

i am confused. what do you mean by critics of the west? do you mean people who criticise the west or people who are western who criticise china? please clarify your comments

December 13, 2007 @ 5:28 pm | Comment

@yan

i would argue that the imtfe was a botched job and filled with political manoeuvring. why wasn’t the emperor put on trial as head of state? the us wanted a high total for nanjing, so that they could justify the dropping of the atomic bombs on hiroshima and nagasaki. they needed to make the japanese look as barbaric as possible to justify their own barbarism.

December 13, 2007 @ 5:31 pm | Comment

See? No need to try to reason with some people like the Nanye crowd. If Israel had turned out to be Communist, you can bet there would be a lot more Holocaust denier around.

December 13, 2007 @ 6:04 pm | Comment

@Si

glad to find that you have no doubt on the number of atomic bombs dropped in Japan, which makes you less qualified to be president of Iran. vow, so close.

December 13, 2007 @ 6:12 pm | Comment

I like the way that the nationalists have responded. Not by dealing with the points I have raised and refuting them in a logical and clear manner, but by simply calling me a holocaust denier.

for the record, i consider the comparison of the nanjing massacre to the systematised slaughter of 6-8 million people to be insulting to the victims of nazism. there was no attempt by the japanese to eradicate the entire chinese race. the comparison is childish and facile.

secondly, i don’t deny there was a massacre at nanjing, i just don’t believe the chinese bodycount on the grounds that they lie continually about their history, so cannot be trusted.

i look forward to debating with people who are actually willing to contest the points i raised (the politicalisation of the imtfe; chang’s plagiarism; the bare faced hypocrisy of the ccp liars) without primary school name calling.

December 13, 2007 @ 6:25 pm | Comment

I tend to agree that the massacre, which happened and was an unpardonable disgrace, has been politicized by the CCP and used to deflect criticism of itself and turn it toward a convenient enemy.

It’s time for both sides to grow up. The Japanese revisionists and the CCP drum-beaters who’ve tried to raise the decibel level whenever they want to change the subject away from their own transgressions. I still remember this paragraph from John Pomfret’s Chinese Lessons, because it showed just how far the CCP will go to keep its people convinced Japan is China’s enemy for all time:

After years of complaints by the Japanese government, China finally allowed a plaque to be erected at the gleaming new Beijing International Airport acknowledging that it was built with a low-interest Japanese loan. The plaque was hung in a hall in the administrative wing at the airport, where no traveler would ever see it.

I will say that over the past year (or even two) there has been a marked decrease in the anti-Japan propaganda here, and you don’t read about Yasukuni in the newspapers and blogs every day like a few years ago. Maybe people on both sides are maturing. I hope so.

To repeat: the massacre happened and was a gruesome crime against humanity. Just like 911 and other crimes against humanity, there comes a time to move on. We are well past that time. Don’t forget what happened; don’t forgive the butchers – but don’t blame their great-grandchildren, and realize that every race has had monstrous crimes committed against them at one time or another, and those who are mature and confident in themselves don’t need to bear grudges for all eternity.

December 13, 2007 @ 6:58 pm | Comment

“China’s ultimate goal in north-east Asia is economic integration”

Replace ‘integration’ with ‘supremacy’ and you’ll be closer to the truth. If and when they achieve such supremacy you can believe they’ll use that leverage to start pushing the Japanese around.

All this ceaseless Nanjing nonsense is absolutely about demonizing a people for something that happened before they were born. Beijing needs to shut the hell up until such time it is prepared to remember the skeletons in its own closet with the same alacrity.

December 13, 2007 @ 7:01 pm | Comment

Thank you Richard. I left China over a year ago, so I am not totally up to date with what is going on on the ground. I lost a lot of respect for the Chinese during the demos of 2005. Whilst I accept your points, I feel that the Chinese need to move first, as it would be a lot easier for Japan to admit its shortcomings, if it didn’t involve signing up to the looney tune ccp ranting.

As Robert Entenmann points out those who seem “unable to differentiate between some members of the ultranationalist fringe and other Japanese.” are causing a problem. “A Japanese translation of the diairy of John Rabe, a German businessman who helped protect civilians in the Nanking Safety Zone, is a best-seller in Japan. Moreover, despite what Iris Chang maintains, current Japanese textbooks discuss the massacre, giving figures of between 150,000 to 300,000 killed. A 1994 opinion poll found that eighty percent of respondents in Japan believed that their government had not adequately compensated victimized peoples in countries Japan colonized or invaded. ‘This is hardly the response of a people suffering from acute historical amnesia,’ as John Dower notes”

http://www.ess.uwe.ac.uk/genocide/reviewswc3.htm (i got the link via wikipedia)

December 13, 2007 @ 7:33 pm | Comment

Excellent quote, Si, thanks. Japan and China have become much closer over the past two years, and I don’t think we will be seeing any repeats of the 2005 insanity, where the mobs, prodded on by the propaganda blast furnace, burned restaurants with Japanese names and Japanese food – even though their owners were Chinese. I want to hope this is a sign of greater maturity and security (people who are secure with themselves and with who they are don’t burn down restaurants), but only time will tell.

Yiding (way up at the top), thanks for commenting on my site.

December 13, 2007 @ 8:18 pm | Comment

@Si

Could you give me an exact quote from the Chinese textbook on the Nanking Massacre? I seriously doubt that you even read the Chinese textbook. And I seriously doubt you knowledge of that part of the history. Do you even have any idea how many civilians were killed during the 8-year war? The ignorance of the Westerners on this subject is astonishing. Please, read a few books before you comment on this subject. You don’t need to read Iris Chang for information, she is not even a historian. All the evidences can be found in the Library of Congress, OK?

“…the reason why the situation is so inflamed is because of the ccp opened this can of worms in the 80s.”

Are you kidding me? The Sino-Japanese relation was at it’s best during the 80s. We even made a movie about the war together, the title is called “An Unfinished Go Match” (Japanese title: “Mikan no taikyoku”, http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0089594/). The relation turned sour when the Japanese prime minister started to visit the shrine in the 90s. There is no way that the CCP can make him do that. The shrine visit was the root cause of the anti-Japanese sentiments, later stoked by the denial of the “comfort women.”

If anti-Japanese sentiment is so good for the CCP, then why are they trying to mend ties with Japan right now? It doesn’t make sense! Chinese warship just made a port call to Japan. Hu Jintao will visit Japan next year. Even the most anti-China politician Ishihara Shintaro now wants to apologize to the Chinese people. Sino-Japanese relation will improve, it’s in China’s interests to do so. It’s also in Japan’s interests to do so, because when China and Japan become friends, the US will have no more excuses to keep troops on Japan’s soil…

December 14, 2007 @ 1:13 am | Comment

AC,
No prime minister visited Yasukuni before the 1990s? You might want to read a few books as well.
The “victor narrative” of Maoist China quickly turned into a “victim narrative” after reforms, I believe in an attempt to make people hostile to the countries who were actually driving China’s development, and directing all of their thanks to the supposedly anti-imperlist (although practiciing imperialist) Party, the “qinaide muqin!”

December 14, 2007 @ 1:42 am | Comment

“No prime minister visited Yasukuni before the 1990s? You might want to read a few books as well.”

Who? When? At what capacity?

“The “victor narrative” of Maoist China quickly turned into a “victim narrative” after reforms, I believe in an attempt to make people hostile to the countries who were actually driving China’s development, and directing all of their thanks to the supposedly anti-imperlist (although practiciing imperialist) Party, the “qinaide muqin!”
“

Care to share some facts? “I believe” does not equal facts, now does it? For the life of me, I can’t recall how the CCP taught me to hate the Japanese when I was in school. You must have been educated in Chinese schools, otherwise how would you know? Could you please enlighten me a little?

I don’t know why I don’t hate the Japanese, I guess I should since you think the CCP taught me to. As a matter of fact, my best friend when I was in grad school in the states was a Japanese. He taught me how to drive. We never talked about the war. I never had the urge to ask him to apologize to the Chinese people, strange. 🙂

You see this is what happens, when they can’t come up with an argument that is backed up by facts, they call you a CCP apologist. So convenient!

December 14, 2007 @ 2:43 am | Comment

secondly, i don’t deny there was a massacre at nanjing, i just don’t believe the chinese bodycount on the grounds that they lie continually about their history, so cannot be trusted.

Si, the numbers are the US counts and the western estimates. Are you pretend to be stupid? How many time do you want people to tell you?

Also, Japanese text books are not unified. I have read both versions. It only have to be approved by the ministry of education. There are many approved Japanese history textbooks are revisionist.

December 14, 2007 @ 2:46 am | Comment

Yasukuni visits began in the 80s.
Unfortunately, you are the one who can’t back up your statements with facts, because you’re unfortunately wrong.
You also clearly have not heard about “patriotic education” either. In fact, there are “patriotic education bases/ aiguo zhuyi jiaoyu jidi” around the country which are the regular site of field trips.
I mean, if reading books is too hard for you, you can start from wikipedia… but don’t be disingenuous.

December 14, 2007 @ 3:30 am | Comment

Actually, my bad, I was wrong.
But you certainly weren’t right.
As I recommended, skip the books AC, and try wikipedia.

Here’s an excerpt:
The controversial nature of the shrine has figured largely in both domestic Japanese politics and relations with other Asian countries. The controversy has been reignited nearly every year since 1975, when prime minister Miki Takeo visited the shrine as a private individual on August 15, the day that Japan commemorates the end of World War II. The next year, his successor Fukuda Takeo visited as a private individual yet signed the visitors’ book as prime minister. Several other Japanese prime ministers have visited the shrine since 1979: Masayoshi Ohira in 1979; Zenko Suzuki in 1980, 1981 and 1982; Yasuhiro Nakasone in 1983 and 1985 (on the latter occasion, he offered flowers which had been paid-for with government money.); Kiichi Miyazawa in 1992, this visit was kept secret until 1996 (he had paid a visit in 1980 before becoming Prime Minister); Ryutaro Hashimoto in 1996; and Junichiro Koizumi, who has visited six times to date (2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, and 2006). Visits by Japanese prime ministers to the shrine have resulted in official condemnation by neighboring countries since 1985, as they see it as an attempt to legitimize Japan’s past militarism.

Also, do an internet search for aiguo zhuyi jiaoyu jidi, to learn more about that.

I will accept your apologies for your mistakes.

December 14, 2007 @ 3:40 am | Comment

@kevinnolongerinpudong

“Yasukuni visits began in the 80s.”

Again, Who? When? What capacity?

Don’t dodge the questions.

“In fact, there are “patriotic education bases/ aiguo zhuyi jiaoyu jidi” around the country which are the regular site of field trips. “

Well, I remember that. What is wrong with patriotic educations? We were told to remember the national shames at these paces, so we should study hard to make China strong.

Aren’t kids required to recite the “Pledge of Allegiance” in American schools? There are fighter jet fly-overs during the superbowls, for God’s sake!

December 14, 2007 @ 3:52 am | Comment

I’m with nanheyangrouchuan, kevinnolongerinpudong and Si on this one. The same people who keep screaming about the bad Japanese, the Nanking massacre and so on, keep saying how much they adore Adolf Hitler and the Nazis for their great deeds. If you remind them of the holocaust, they shrug their shoulders and tell you that you should always see “both the good and the bad in a person”, in other words you should be FAIR AND BALANCED.

AC said:
“The shrine visit was the root cause of the anti-Japanese sentiments, later stoked by the denial of the “comfort women.””

What about the CCP’s comfort women? And don’t tell me there weren’t any, back in the good, old days of great Chairman Mao.

December 14, 2007 @ 4:08 am | Comment

I really don’t think I’m dodging the question, in that I provided a detailed account three comments above of precisely when such visits started and when the Chinese government began talking about it.
Again, for someone who haughtily says that others should “read,” you are sadly uninformed and poor at even reading the very simple comments I have provided above.

December 14, 2007 @ 4:17 am | Comment

I don’t buy the notion that the Nanjing Massacre is any kind of forgotten or obscure event.

I grew up in the 1960s and 1970s in the US and “massacre” was the only word anyone I knew would or could ever associate with Nanking/jing — at least until China opened up and Johns Hopkins opened its program there, Nanjing Motors became known, etc.

December 14, 2007 @ 4:23 am | Comment

@kevinnolongerinpudong

I stand by my claim. All those visits were as private individuals, the issue reached it’s boiling point only when Koizumi went as Prime Minister, OK? Before the internet, especially before 1978, Chinese weren’t even aware of those visits.

@mor

You forgot Bill and Monica.

December 14, 2007 @ 4:23 am | Comment

@kevinnolongerinpudong

We were typing at the same time, I didn’t see your answer before I posted mine.

December 14, 2007 @ 4:28 am | Comment

Well, that is exactly my point. They weren’t aware of these visits, because the government wasn’t obsessed about it like it is nowadays, using this issue to cover up its own much, much greater wrongdoings.
Thanks for proving me right.
Also, glad that I could “refresh your memory” about patriotic education: “oh, now I remember!”

December 14, 2007 @ 4:30 am | Comment

@kevinnolongerinpudong

No, you don’t have a point.

To cover what “wrongdoings”??? Even if what you said was true, shouldn’t they do that all the time? Why just nowadays?

There was a protest in 2005 ONLY because Koizumi went as Prime Minister.

December 14, 2007 @ 4:39 am | Comment

@slim

Exactly right!

@AC

What do Bill and Monica have to do with comfort women? Is this supposed to be a joke? Cause I’m not getting it.

“To cover what “wrongdoings”???”

Right, the CCP never did anything wrong. Whatever hardship the Chinese people ever had to go through was caused by the Japanese, the Americans, some other foreign devil or the KMT.

December 14, 2007 @ 5:28 am | Comment

There was a protest in 2005 because Japan wanted to join the security council and the bitches in zhongnanhai got their panties in a bunch about it, making a lot of speeches about respecting history while continuing to arrest parents whose children were killed in 1989.

December 14, 2007 @ 6:50 am | Comment

China and Japan are at peace with each other again.

So, is it because Chinese government and people suddenly decided to switch the issue off, or is it because there has been no more shrine visit so far under the new Japanese government? What do you think? Kevin.

December 14, 2007 @ 9:27 am | Comment

I Believe There’s Too Much Anti-Japanese Sentiments Amongst Chinese People

These days, there are many patriotic Chinese who expres d their feelings towards Japan and its crimes against China. Of course, they are immediately criticized by many members of this blog for being too extreme, too narrow-minded, too nationalistic, etc, etc. Well, I feel there’s been too much “emotional” talk about Japan, and not enough “engineering-mindset” talk. In other words, all the discussion has been about “I hate Japan, I want to kill all Japanese!”, etc, etc. I’m not interested in that kind of talk, I have an engineering mindset. In my mind, there’s no such thing as “love” or “hate”, there’s only “how to do this”, “how to do that…”. So, this post wants to discuss China-Japan relations not from an emotional viewpoint, but from a “operational” viewpoint.

There’s a big difference between emotions and operations. If you let your emotions decide your operations, then it is very harmful. And I feel many Chinese are letting their emotions determine their operations regarding Japan. For example, if you are a Chinese Go Player, you are playing a match with a Japanese in an International Tournament. Now, you very much hate Japan for its crimes against China, that is justified, and you will probably be very emotionally hostile to Japan. But for this Go match, you should not be affected by your emotions. Given a situation on the Go board, you should analyze it from a purely technical perspective, and forget about all your hatred of Japan. On this Go board, the only mindset you should have is an engineering mindset about how to win.

Mao Zedong, for example, was never affected by his emotions. He had a famous military saying, “If the enemy advances, we will retreat”. He also said “If we can win, we’ll fight, if we can’t win, we’ll retreat.” This statement is a purely technical statement, and it does not care if you feel “emotionally sad” if you retreat. There’s a famous Chinese military movie called “Nan Zheng Bei Zhan”, in it, there’s a low-level soldier who complained to his commander that “we retreat so often, this does not feel heroic enough, it feels like we are losers”. His commander said, “I also want to wake up tomorrow and wipe our all the Jiang Jieshi’s forces, but that is unrealistic”. This is a great refllection of the emotionless and purely engineering-mindset thinking.

Now let’s go back to Japan. If there are two people, one is a soldier in the PLA, and like all Chinese, he hates Japan very much, but instead of shouting anti-Japanese slogans and writing fantasy anti-Japan stories online, he remains quiet and simply trains very hard everyday, doing pushups, standups, running, shooting, hand-combat, explosives, swimming, etc etc. These training is very boring, very dry, and does not sound very “exciting” and “sensational”. But it substantially contributes to the combat abilities of the PLA. When every soldier contributes his part to the PLA, the PLA’s strength will increase everyday, and it will slowly form a threat to the Japanese army. This, I believe, is the “engineering mindset” style of operations. Now, there’s another humanities major who also hates Japan very much, but he rents a boat, and sails to Japan, and starts shouting anti-Japanese slogans on the streets of Tokyo, before finally being arrested by the Japanese police, and sent home. Now, when he gets home, the media, which loves these sensational and humanity-major style “stories”, will celebrate him as a hero, and he’ll get on TV and become popular. But is he a real hero? No. From an engineering-mindset, that silent soldier is a real hero with regard to dealing with the Japanese, that humanity-major is simply wasting time.

So who are the real anti-Japanese heroes? They are the engineers who are researching ways to build a better TV than Sony, a better car than Toyota, a better missile than the Japanese Navy. They are mathematicians who can develop more in-depth theories than their Japanese counter-parts. Instead of smashing Toyota cars on the street, they are trying to make a better quality Chinese car that can outsell Toyotas. Those are the real anti-Japanese heroes, not the ones who shout loudly and throw eggs on Japanese embassies.

Humanity majors are like children. Why are they like children? They let emotions determine their operations. Why do children fight each other so much? Simply because children let their emotoins determine their operations. But as people grow older, they know that to let real calcuations and engineering-mindset determine their operations.

Therefore, I agree with the moderator of this forum that those emotional anti-Japanese posts are too extreme, too childish, and too humanity-major like.

Fortunately Hu Jintao and his advisors do have an engineering-mindset. They hate Japan as much as we do, yet they are not ordering nuclear strikes on Tokyo, or marching onto the street and shouting like children. They recently even met with the new Japanese prime minister, and even strategically called for China-Japan friendship. They are very mature, they know how to operate based on calcuations instead of emotions.

December 14, 2007 @ 9:47 am | Comment

there was a protest in 2005 because the prime minister of japan kept visiting the class a war criminals (or maybe a shrine of soldiers and deaths from the war, but happen to have a few class a war criminals). the prime minister’s visits offended their own people. and what is the difference between a asian class a criminal, and a german one ? Koizumi fanned the hatred too if not alone.

beside, the tokyo high court then turned down the compensation request by the poor old comfort women.

but if you want to blame zhongnanhai. go ahead

December 14, 2007 @ 10:07 am | Comment

Here’s a dose of sanity from one of the best blogs out there. A healthy clip:

I’ve never attempted to research historical documents or done a population analysis of Nanjing in 1937 to determine the number of deaths. As such, I’m not in a position to say one way or the other whether or not the figure of over 300,000 deaths is accurate or not. And to be quite frank, 70 years later, the numbers – not to sound sadistic – don’t really matter that much anymore. The main point today is that the world acknowledges that a brutal display of humanity took place.

Of course, most independent observers recognize that China uses events like the Nanking Massacre as a propaganda tool to whip up nationalism. The question is: Is the government trying to stoke an anti-Japanese sentiment or is it just trying to rally its people behind a unifying cause, and make them forget about all the other crappy things the CPC government has done to them over the years? I would argue for the latter. I believe this government really does want to strengthen its political relationship with Japan. For China, Japan is an important trading partner, and has strategic links with the United States. And if the dookie ever hits the rotary blades over Taiwan, the CPC is going to need to have close dialogue with Japan to keep that country out of the brewhaha. However, every time the CPC commemorates a wartime anniversary or reads about some low level Japanese politician making some small statement about comfort women, it fires out venomous language that only the communist world can come up with. As such, it creates anti-Japanese sentiment as a by-product, something I truly believe this government doesn’t want to foster.

December 14, 2007 @ 10:07 am | Comment

From Greek, poly, meaning many, and ticks, meaning bloodsuckers.

To this day, Americans speak of the Pearl Harbor attack, a single event, 2,500 casualties & a wounded national pride, nuked the crap out of Japan with absolute impunity; and box office Hollywood movies glorifying the insanity. History once again repeats itself. Since 9-11, 2001, a single day event; six years on with over a million lives snuffed out and countless families, both Iraqis and American, destroyed forever. And we have the effrontery to lecture the Chinese about how they should feel, view history: Nanking 1937-1938 to 1945, when and how to forgive?

Politics is not an exact science, it is the art of the possible, the conduct of public affairs for private gains. Pity the gullible bleating masses, foreign and domestic, for you and I serve the same monsters; each of us fooled by the disinformation they’ve authorized as truth disseminated among teachers, elders, soothsayers, professors and the media. “Authorized ” versions of truth to set brothers against brothers, strangers against strangers and their inheritance; hungry sheep against well-fed but no less bleating sheep, y’all, we all.

December 14, 2007 @ 10:14 am | Comment

btw, who knows the difference among a german chancelor’s visit to hitler, an abrabian emir’s visit to osama, and a japanese priminister’s visit to Hideki Tojo ?

religionally, conventionally, whatever difference ? thx

December 14, 2007 @ 10:18 am | Comment

Where can one buy a copy of this film? The more people who know about what happened the better.

December 14, 2007 @ 10:32 am | Comment

Good one, Richard:

“Here’s a dose of sanity from one of the best blogs out there. A healthy clip”

December 14, 2007 @ 10:36 am | Comment

Here’s a dose of sanity from one of the best blogs out there.
Comment:
Anon said:”…or is it just trying to rally its people behind a unifying cause, and make them forget about all the other crappy things the CPC government has done to them over the years?…”

“rally its people behind a unifying cause” is correct, however, they have done that since the founding of the new China, not just today.

“make them forget about all the other crappy things the CPC government has done” is typical Western propaganda BS IMHO. Sorry, but that’s just what it is. What are the facts behind this claim? If it works, wouldn’t you think that they should do that all the time? Why just recently? What “crappy things” have the CCP done lately that need to be covered up?

Have you ever thought about that maybe the anti-Japanese sentiments among the people are spontaneous, the government had no choice but to side with the people by reacting angrily so it can keep it’s own legitimacy? If you can’t provide evidence to eliminate such possibility, then your original argument is highly questionable.” Anon.

Speaking of hating Japanese, I have met a quite a few such Chinese a couple of years ago, but certainly not all and certainly becoming lesser by the day.

December 14, 2007 @ 11:28 am | Comment

What “crappy things” have the CCP done lately that need to be covered up?

Corruption. Having an issue like this can conveniently change the subject on your own iniquities. This is pretty much a matter of fact, not speculation. Tightening the screws on anti-Japanese sentiment by the government is a documented tactic. It includes police escorts leading demonstrators to the Japanese embassy and handing the crowd eggs to throw. It includes a steady stream of soppy TV shows on the war of aggression against China, and a quick lowering of the volume when its politically and economically wise to make nice with the Japanese. The Pomfret quote above is a metaphor for how the CCP has treated Japan over the past 25 years, forbidding public awareness of the great favor Japan was providing, while encouraging anti-Japanese sentiment in all of its media. As I said, I believe it has gotten far better since 2005, which is when it hit its apex. I love the theory of all this Japan-bashing being spontaneous. There was none in the Mao years. It was cultivated and carefully milked by those who followed him who needed a punching bag as they became richer and richer.

December 14, 2007 @ 4:19 pm | Comment

@arty

as i said before, i believe that all numbers for nanjing are necessarily flawed due to the politicalisation of the imtfe. however it has to be said that the western numbers are 150,000 to 200,000 whereas the ccp number is over 300,000. quite a difference.

@ac

of course i have read the textbooks, otherwise i would not have commented on them. i take it you assume i have no knowledge of chinese….

here’s the japanese section. you will notice the lack of information on japan’s pacifist constitution and the money they gave the china after reform and opening (mao refused any compensation)

http://www.pep.com.cn/pdysh/jszx/pdysh6s/dzkb/200711/t20071102_420728.htm

here’s the section on tibet’s peaceful liberation. do i need to put in a link for the entirely ficitional account of the korean war?

http://www.pep.com.cn/czls/jszx/8x/dzkb/200502/t20050202_184145.htm

you will no doubt counter that they are experimental textbooks. they are published and online, so they must have official approval. if they are not standard perhaps you can give me some links to prove it. and don’t give me any “there’s no context” bullshit either. you can easily access the rest of the books from that link.

any comments on this hypocrisy?

December 14, 2007 @ 5:23 pm | Comment

Here’s an email excerpt from a friend currently doing his Post Grad ‘Chinese Studies in English’ overseas:

“When I was in Japan, (he’d worked there for six years)
I heard from a former soldier of the Japanese Imperialist Army an account that goes something like this:

“… some of our officers in the unit along with
others decided to hold a beheading competition with
their samurai swords. They went berserk among
unarmed Chinese civilians in Nanjing until their
swords went blunt or their hands got so tired that
they can chop no more … “.

The old war veteran has been getting regular
life-threatening phone calls from those who consider
spilling the beans on war buddies — a crime punishable
by death. I bet you many unrepentant war veterans of
the Japanese Imperialist Army would meet in their
regular “izakaya (alcoholic waterholes)” away from the
ears of their wives and kids to talk about the good
times they’ve had killing, raping and looting in
occupied China and or other parts of Asia and the
Pacific; the best part is many of them have been
drawing monthly war pensions from their government
according to rank and years of service to the Great
Imperialist Nippon empire for more than 50 years
after the end of WW2.

The last war-time Japanese prime
minister, General Tojo Hideki — who was sentenced to
death by the Tokyo War Crime Tribunal but committed
suicide before they could hang him — well, his widow was getting no less than 3 million Yen (about USD30,000) monthly pension from the Japanese government beffiting the rank of a war-time general and prime minister.

General Okumura Neji who oversaw the scorched earth
war strategy of “kill all, burn all and loot all” in
rural Northern China resulting in the deaths of more
than 10 million people never saw a day in prison after
he was convicted for his war crimes because he’d help
Generalissimo Chiang Kai shek by ordering his troops in
northern China to refuse to surrender to the 8th Route
Army of the Communist Party of China; he was
safely repatriated back to his beloved Nippon homeland
not long after his conviction. Okumura continued to
advise Generalissimo Chiang during the ensuing civil
war between the Guomindang and the CPC.

General Ishii Shiro, the commander of the secret
biochemical war Unit 731, was never put on trial for
his war crimes which include the use of living human
beings for biochemical experiments leading to untold
number of deaths because he had the foresight of
killing all the inmates of the secret Buchenwald-type concentration camps in northeastern China before the advancing Soviet Army could get him. Ishii handed over secret records of biochemical experiments carried out by Unit 731 to the U.S. military and was allowed to go Scot free. The list goes on and on and on .***truncated***

December 14, 2007 @ 9:46 pm | Comment

What’s this got to do with the above points, other than to criticise japan? are you supporting my point that the imtfe was politicised? your point about the former soldier is simply hearsay. how is it credible?

Who is Okumura Neji? Do you mean Yasuji Okamura? Yasuji Okamura’s life fits your description but given you got his name totally wrong, I have difficulty believing you know anything this subject……

December 15, 2007 @ 12:15 am | Comment

as i said before, i believe that all numbers for nanjing are necessarily flawed due to the politicalisation of the imtfe. however it has to be said that the western numbers are 150,000 to 200,000 whereas the ccp number is over 300,000. quite a difference.

Acutally, based on the Nanking war crimes trial verdict (incl. 190,000 mass slaughter deaths and 150,000 individual killings) March 10, 1947.

However, if you think 150,000 is quite a difference, I have nothing to say. You know me I believe everyone is expandable.

December 15, 2007 @ 1:39 am | Comment

Here’s a link to a Christian Science Monitor article titled, “In Japan, Denial over Nanjing Still Holds Sway After 70 Years.” The opening graph:

At a war memorial on a recent evening, former Imperial soldiers rejected the notion of a Nanjing Massacre, even as some Japanese try to present a more balanced view.

December 15, 2007 @ 1:40 am | Comment

@Si

What is your point? CCP lied about Nanking because they told lies about other things before? You can’t convict somebody of lying just because he lied before, that’s not enough, Si. You need to tell the jury how he lied this time.

So, I still need an exact quote from the Chinese textbook about Nanking, please include the name of the publisher, date and edition.

I’m waiting….

December 15, 2007 @ 4:41 am | Comment

@Richard

”Pomfret quote above is a metaphor for how the CCP has treated Japan over the past 25 years, forbidding public awareness of the great favor Japan was providing, while encouraging anti-Japanese sentiment in all of its media.”

All these are Pomfret’s own interpretations, i.e. accusations based on suspicions. Richard, please do not confuse one’s interpretations with FACTS.

However, you can win me over by simply showing me a single authentic CCP document (or even a witness of such document). Yes, there are such documents, they tell the media how to cover events in forms of documents. Otherwise, accusations are just worthless accusations. It would be unwise to base your beliefs on such accusations.

Actually, I wouldn’t believe Pomfret was even on site in 1989 unless he show me a picture to prove it.

December 15, 2007 @ 4:45 am | Comment

“Actually, I wouldn’t believe Pomfret was even on site in 1989 unless he show me a picture to prove it.”

AC, you’re clearly holding others to higher standards than yourself solely for the promotion of your own politicized viewpoints.
If there is something you want to believe, you accept it wholeheartedly, yet if you do not want to face an obvious truth (Yasukuni visits started before the 90s), you keep asking for facts without providing any yourself.
You suggested someone “read more books,” but have shown yourself to be continually uninformed and misinformed.

Pomfret’s story is not an interpretation. It is an actual fact that symbolizes a greater truth.

As I showed you yesterday, just because you say something is wrong certainly does not mean it’s wrong. In fact, according to your batting record, you believing something is right seems to make it highly probably that it is wrong.

Good day!

December 15, 2007 @ 4:56 am | Comment

“Pomfret’s story is not an interpretation. It is an actual fact that symbolizes a greater truth.”

How so? Just because you say so?

December 15, 2007 @ 5:35 am | Comment

“Yasukuni visits started before the 90s”

Let me repeat, those were PRIVATE visits.

December 15, 2007 @ 5:39 am | Comment

Another high point in sino-japan relations:

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/en/doc/2003-09/30/content_268745.htm

December 15, 2007 @ 5:53 am | Comment

AC, are you saying Pomfret simply lied? I know two reporters who were there with him at Tiananmen Square. Are they lying too? You think he’s lying about the plaque at the airport? A lie that could instantly be fact-checked and ruin his reputation? You really think so?

Listen, you are trying my patience. All I want to say is this: Be careful. You can disagree with me, but you can’t come in here and call people liars if you have no evidence. I’ve given you a lot of latitude so far, but Pomfret is a fried of mine and I deeply resent the BS you’re spouting about him. It is tantamount to slander. So again, be careful Thanks for your understanding.

December 15, 2007 @ 10:25 am | Comment

“a topic of which the world still remains surprisingly ignorant, … man at his very most noble and at his very most base. It’s about time such a movie was made.”Richard

Yes, the world must be constantly reminded of man’s capacity for the highest noble acts of self sacrifice so as to never forget and condemn its other capacity for the most vile acts of cowardices.

Japanese primary school teacher Motsuoka Tamaki has again returned to one of the most brutal atrocities of the 20th century in her book, “Nanjing Massacre – The Split Soul of the Victims.”
Motsuoka, 58, says collecting information from the victims was not easy. Most were reluctant to recall the misery and pain they endured, especially those women who had been raped. Women such as Li, who was stabbed 37 times by Japanese soldiers when she was pregnant or comfort women who had to provide mechanical sex from morning till late night day after day. A woman who was raped when she was only six years old rebuffed Motsuoka five times. Motsuoka persisted and won her trust in the end. “She told me that she has had to wear diapers all her life after the nightmare,” Motsuoka says with pain in her voice.

As a Japanese, she found that it was easier for her to talk with Japanese soldiers about the massacre.

In 2002, Motsuoka published a book containing the testimony of 102 soldiers.

In her nearly 20 years of research, Motsuoka has met a lot of resistance. Right-wing forces in Japan have tried to interfere in her work

“After the first book was published, I received more than 1,500 threatening messages online …”

December 15, 2007 @ 9:33 pm | Comment

I know that this thread is pretty much dead, but anyway….

my points were:

1. The numbers given by the west and the ccp are suspect as they are both politically motivated. the us needs a high number to justify the atomic bombings. the ccp routinely lies about its history so cannot be trusted. no neutral would be allowed into china to do research that might contradict the ccp, so it is unlikely a reliable version of events will be published soon.

2. it is deeply hypocritical for the ccp to criticise others for failing to acknowledge their history given that they fail to acknowledge their own failings (see link to the peaceful liberation of tibet)

3. given all this, everyone really needs to shut up.

i think arty and ac simply misunderstand me or they are being very disingenuous indeed. i have also noted they have failed to answer the central point of ccp hypocrisy.

i was amused by the fact hkonger failed to acknowledge that he had got one of the names wrong in his previous post. i hope he is not just cut and pasting and does actually know what he is talking about

December 17, 2007 @ 4:29 pm | Comment

“i was amused by the fact hkonger failed to acknowledge that he had got one of the names wrong in his previous post.”

@Si,
Actually I did respond on December 16, 2007 11:44 AM:
“The Nanking thread is dead or temporarily not accepting comment and I hope you (Richard) don’t mind me doing on this (China, Fair & Balanced) thread. I just wanted to respond to Si’s previous comment:

“Who is Okumura Neji? Do you mean Yasuji Okamura? Yasuji Okamura’s life fits your description but given you got his name totally wrong, I have difficulty believing you know anything this subject”……Posted by: Si at December 15, 2007 12:15 AM

RE: General Okumura Neiji aka Okamura Yasuji aka 岗村宁次:

The key to most Japanese names is the Hanzi/Kanji not just the phonetic reading which in most cases entail
two readings known in Japanese as
“onyomi/音读(borrowed from two different
old Han Chinese sources)” and
“kunyomi／训读(based on the native
Japanese sound that’s equivalent in meaning to that
denoted by the specific Han Chinese character)”.

The “onyomi” for 宁　is Nei and its
“kunyomi” is Yasu but there are several other kanji that can be read as Yasu and or Nei; therefore it’s still the specific Kanji that holds the key to nailing the identity of the name of the person not just the phonetic reading written in Hiragana/Katagana alphabets or Roman alphabets. One small technicality
on the conventional order of family names; Japanese names follow the Han Chinese tradition of having family names uttered/written before given names.
That’s why I prefer to use the oriental convention —
Okumura Neiji/Yasuji rather than the occidental
convention in the reverse order.
No big deal.
Thanks for your indulgences.

Posted by: Hkonger at December 16, 2007 11:44 AM

December 18, 2007 @ 4:53 pm | Comment

@hkonger

i didn’t see that – fair enough. thank you for your explanation, and my apologies for writing the given name before the surname. there are, as you say, multiple readings for kanji in japanese. nevertheless each japanese will have only one reading of their name so i feel that you really should have checked how the name is pronounced – it is okamura yasuji according to the japanese wikipedia (http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%B2%A1%E6%9D%91%E5%AF%A7%E6%AC%A1) – and you should definitely do this if you are handing out lessons in how to read japanese!

i still suspect you are just cutting and pasting….

December 18, 2007 @ 5:27 pm | Comment

NO worries, Si.

December 18, 2007 @ 10:26 pm | Comment