Wow. Yep.

I have to say I’m glad that the protests and torch run went off peacefully in San Francisco.

April 11, 2008 @ 1:50 am | Comment

The sad thing is, the torch-grabbers were engaging in an illiberal (read: asshole) form of protest, but China will point and say this is how the tolerant West treats people. Sigh.

April 11, 2008 @ 2:06 am | Comment

Let her light the Olympic flame at the opening ceremony.

This is a very moving story. China should let her light
the Olympic flame at the opening ceremony.

Would that be wonderful?

April 11, 2008 @ 2:37 am | Comment

this is how the tolerant West treats people

Are they wrong? Crime rates and idiotic behavior by the electorate do kinda hint at this.

April 11, 2008 @ 2:51 am | Comment

Wow. Yep.

I have to say I’m glad that the protests and torch run went off peacefully in San Francisco.

Mostly because SF saw what happened in Europe and pulled a last minute bait-&-switch for the torch route, leaving behind a crowd of about 10,000 confused and angry protestors. All things told, this is probably a good thing. Nobody wants a repeat of what happened in those photos.

April 11, 2008 @ 3:15 am | Comment

Yeah, Zibong, I was just reading about that. It’s sad. I’d like to think that the protests and the torch run could have both taken place peacefully, but I guess we’ll never know.

April 11, 2008 @ 3:27 am | Comment

CNN caption: Peaceful free Tibet protestor attempts to hug Jin Jing; is brutalized by 6 Chinamen on steroids.

April 11, 2008 @ 3:37 am | Comment

Probably a good idea. The mayor and police chief may get some flak for redirecting the torch route, but it avoided circus frenzy that San Francisco protests invariably descend to. Most of the protesters can’t even find Tibet on a map and were there mostly because other people were gathering or to start a small riot.

April 11, 2008 @ 3:42 am | Comment

But you do see how holding a sneak relay kinda defeats the purpose of holding the relay at all right?

April 11, 2008 @ 3:47 am | Comment

@serve the people
Damage control…. damage control……

“Let her light the Olympic flame at the opening ceremony.”

That will be a great idea. Will they be smart/bold enough to do it?

April 11, 2008 @ 4:51 am | Comment

Please read this important article, I am posting it because it is integral to all that is going down on the big stage right now

Beijing Olympics: Is U.S. Support the Anaconda in the Chandelier?

http://tinyurl.com/54vt7k

April 11, 2008 @ 5:41 am | Comment

It won’t make a jot of difference – why?

Because the majority of Chinese who give a damn had already convinced themselves that they were the victim of an international conspiracy to make them look bad. This is something they will use as “proof” that foreign nations are biased against China. If it wasn’t this it would be something else.

On the other hand most non-Chinese who give a damn aren’t going to change their minds over a few crazies who don’t detract from what is actually happening in China and Tibet.

Of course some people’s views are flexible, but the larger number won’t be affected by a single incident such as this.

Personally I have great sympathy for the parathlete, as I did for all the torch runners who were hassled. But that doesn’t change my views about the political situation regarding China.

April 11, 2008 @ 6:35 am | Comment

As an additional, if this had happened right at the start of the relay it might have made a difference in how non-Chinese saw the whole issue. But by the time this came out the story was already about mass protests in regards to Tibet, the “renta-goons” (flame guards) acting like they owned London, Sarzkoy and others potentially boycotting the opening ceremony, etc.

April 11, 2008 @ 6:42 am | Comment

Physically accosting torch bearers, handicapped or not, is not just over the line. It’s assault. Many better ways to get a point across.

Same goes for the torch “rent-a-goons”. Australia doesn’t want them around:

http://tinyurl.com/5vkfoy

Besides, the London/Paris police looked plenty capable of some good wrestle-downs on their own. Why the need for some People’s Armed Police boys around to ensure “harmony”? Have some faith in Western police, guys, they’ve had tons of experience in the smash-and-cuff field.

April 11, 2008 @ 7:18 am | Comment

Hordes of howling, psychopathic Free Tibet zombies vandalizing and empty bus and screaming vulgarities:

http://tinyurl.com/6ff8wk

April 11, 2008 @ 8:04 am | Comment

Public relations disaster. Dunno. If a handicapped person flew the Tibetan flag on the streets of Lhasa, I don’t think there is any doubt what would happen. But we wouldn’t have any pictures of it circulating all over the Internet. And given what we all know about the situation in China, some of us would ask why anyone would put him or her into that situation.

Given what happened in London, it should not have come as a surprise that there would be activists attempting to steal the torch from the torch bearers, be they in wheelchair or not. So you could ask why the Chinese OC would put Jing Jing into that situation.

April 11, 2008 @ 8:30 am | Comment

@Ferin

Hordes of howling, psychopathic anti-Japanese zombies screaming vulgarities:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F2b1O9nuohs

April 11, 2008 @ 8:34 am | Comment

Maybe they didn’t think there would be hordes of stupid animals trying to grab the torch or maybe the police would perhaps do their job.

They might have put Jin Jing there because they didn’t expect a bunch of crazy pieces of crap to assault a one-legged woman.

Don’t make excuses for those Free Tibet morons.

April 11, 2008 @ 8:35 am | Comment

@Ferin

Not excusing, just explaining. And the standard for how low “hordes of stupid animals” can sink has already been set by the soccer fans you can see in the YouTue clip above.

We also have the gallant behavior of the the Zhejiang soccer fans who felt that they humiliating a Japanese girl’s soccer team was a great thing.

http://www.zonaeuropa.com/20070921_1.htm

Are some pro-Tibetan activists extreme? Possibly. But it’s not Tibet that is arranging the Olympics and will have to deal with people like these soccer fans.

April 11, 2008 @ 8:47 am | Comment

Um, when the torch enters a country, typically that country’s athletes/VIPs get to run the torch.

So why was a PRC athlete running the torch and was it any coincidence that she was handicapped?

The PRC put her out there as a sacrificial lamb.
And how many handicapped Tibetans, Uyghurs and NK refugees has the PAP/PLA brutalized (and done a much more gruesome job).

Burn China burn!

April 11, 2008 @ 9:50 am | Comment

So nice to have you and ferin back, nanhe.

April 11, 2008 @ 10:21 am | Comment

Thanks Rich,

Here’s another reason that China doesn’t deserve the Ol^m(ics and that the world should hoytott them):

http://www.globalvoicesonline.org/2008/04/10/china-a-true-nightmare-on-april-fools-day/#comment-1427695

April 11, 2008 @ 10:45 am | Comment

uh oh, Chongqing police is going to get pwned.

April 11, 2008 @ 10:55 am | Comment

The Olympics and CCP deserve each other for their own respective reasons. The good people at pekingduck shouldn’t be surprised, or that impressed, with the story. We only need to point out that this story about Jin originated from Chinese cybersphere with the image copyrighted by non-PRC sources. The CCP only rode the wave that it never created, nor discovered, but definitely will overplay up on. I personally feel bad for the innocent girl getting harassed first, then used for propaganda. Bravo!

April 11, 2008 @ 11:28 am | Comment

I just entered a bunch of google searches such as “olympic torch ‘jin jing’ site:xxx”, “olympic torch handicap site:xxx”. You know what? It seems that no major news outlets outside of China has those pictures. What PR disasters? It simply didn’t happen.

April 11, 2008 @ 11:40 am | Comment

Jxie, you must be using the new and improved Google China with the added “Ãœber-Propaganda Enhancement” tool.

I did a quick search and got plenty of results.

In fact, the MSNBC blog:

http://tinyurl.com/4l2pnl

“Jin Jing, 28, a former Paralympics fencer from Shanghai who uses a wheelchair, won national acclaim for what the media described as her heroics in protecting the Olympic torch from a group of pro-Tibetan protesters (all protesters have been ubiquitously labeled “Tibetan separatists” and “pro-Tibet independence activists” in state media reports).

Jin’s feisty defense of the torch – she suffered scratches and a bruised leg during the confrontation – has been heavily covered by China’s media, which has the unenviable task of mitigating the scope of the protests.”

Actually links to ESWN…

As for why the photos aren’t being used… May have to do with something known as copyright and some media conveniently not being allowed to obtain the right to use the photos.

Even Time (of CNN/Time Warner) has an article about poor little Jin Jing:
http://tinyurl.com/68u3hw

April 11, 2008 @ 11:59 am | Comment

“If a handicapped person flew the Tibetan flag on the streets of Lhasa, I don’t think there is any doubt what would happen.”

Without doubt the most pertinent comment so far in this thread.

Perhaps the CCP are getting media-savvy: where were the goons in those pictures? Is it possible they were ordered to take a back seat to increase the liklihood of a ‘torch grab’?

April 11, 2008 @ 12:01 pm | Comment

Heiney, I asked for the pictures, specifically the pictures in which the woman in the wheelchair was attacked the protester. Can you find them?

April 11, 2008 @ 12:05 pm | Comment

“If a handicapped person flew the Tibetan flag on the streets of Lhasa, I don’t think there is any doubt what would happen.”

Without doubt the most pertinent comment so far in this thread.

Does this makes a grown-up man attacking a woman in wheelchair less than a grown-up man attacking a woman in wheelchair?

April 11, 2008 @ 12:09 pm | Comment

One can argue about the severity of the damage, but I don’t see how any sensible person can dispute that this is bad press. Protesting the torch seems like a fine idea, as long nobody does anything violent … and, yes, grabbing the torch is violent unless the person who has it wants to give it to you.

April 11, 2008 @ 12:12 pm | Comment

When using Google, the results are based on how many links are made to a particular site or image using the term you use.

When I searched PAGES using just “Jin Jing” I received many page results that had the images you spoke of. When I IMAGES many results were “broken links.” When I searched pages “olympic torch protests” i received many results. When I searched images, again about 90% of the results were a bunch of broken links. I tried the search several times. Finally, I got an image linked to the BBC of the torch being violently ripped from the innocent sacrificial lamb – a.k.a. Jin Jing.

I’d gather the problem lies mostly with your search terms and if you’re searching from inside China or outside.

April 11, 2008 @ 12:20 pm | Comment

I’d also like to say that I agree wholeheartedly with the recent comments of American sports writer Frank Deford, who wrote that the “Olympic Games May Have Run Their Course” (http://tinyurl.com/6jcj44). Everything about the Olympics other than the part where the athletes are actually on the ground competing is pompous, ridiculous, and depressing mess — and I don’t just mean the Beijing Olympics. Everybody would be better off if the ceremonies and rites were disrupted by protesters every time.

April 11, 2008 @ 12:22 pm | Comment

That second paragraph made absolutely no sense to me, either. Let me try it again:

When I searched IMAGES many results were “broken links.”

When I searched pages using the term “olympic torch protests” I received many results. Then, when I searched images, about 90% of the results were a bunch of broken links. I repeated that search search several times. Finally, I got some images – among them one linked to the BBC – of the torch being violently ripped from the innocent lamb – a.k.a. Jin Jing.

April 11, 2008 @ 12:25 pm | Comment

The latest attempt by the Chinese government to bend the pathetically weak IOC to its will:

“Athletes who display Tibetan flags at Olympic venues — including in their own rooms — could be expelled from this summer’s Games in Beijing under anti-propaganda rules……

…..The question of what will constitute propaganda when the Games are on in August and what will be considered opinion under IOC rules is one vexing many in the Olympic movement.”

I don’t think it’s vexing many officials in Beijing – it’s a totalitarian dream to have such a large grey area in which to operate. Trouble ahead, I feel.

Read more here:

http://tinyurl.com/5pdjdl

April 11, 2008 @ 12:26 pm | Comment

Otto,

After being a local witness to the 1996 Atlanta Olympics where every bloody thing that stood still long enough became a billboard for Coke (and to a lesser degree Delta), I’d totally agree.

The amount of commercialism that is attached to the Olympics is disgusting.

*(This “Olympic Rant” brought to you by Haier)*

April 11, 2008 @ 12:31 pm | Comment

Stuart,

WTF?!?!?!

What are these “anti-propaganda rules” they speak of?

(What’s the expression a regular commenter on here liked to use?)

“That’s like a rapist telling a man he can’t hit his wife?”

I think that was the term someone would always use… Please correct me if I am wrong.

April 11, 2008 @ 12:35 pm | Comment

Back to the issue:

Are the Tibetans, politically as opposed to ethnically, Chinese? Let’s adopt a pro-Beijing line and say that the answer is ‘yes’.

Thus, the picture shows two Chinese people wrestling for control of the Olympic torch, making ‘blame the west’ arguments seem pretty foolish. Further, viewed in this light, the whole torch relay saga can be seen as a squabble between Chinese people being played out on foreign soil.

April 11, 2008 @ 12:47 pm | Comment

Heiney, you can search much better by searching with keywords such as “site:” and “source:”.

I am reasonably sure the pictures passed through the editors’ desks in those major news outlets. However, like most of us, when something stands totally against our preconceived notions, we reject it right away. A part of me is an investor — I simple can’t afford that. I have no problem acknowledging that most non-Chinese (including those in the developing world) don’t side with China in its policies on Tibet.

April 11, 2008 @ 12:49 pm | Comment

@ Stuart
Perhaps the CCP are getting media-savvy: where were the goons in those pictures? Is it possible they were ordered to take a back seat to increase the liklihood of a ‘torch grab’?

Actually Stuart, Jin Jing was set upon BEFORE her torch was lit: the goons would have been accompanying the relay runner who was coming up to light the torch in Jin Jing’s hands. On that count, I don’t think it was the CCP’s media-savvy that won them this PR victory. ESWN is right: the CCP could never have got it this right if they had planned it…

April 11, 2008 @ 12:51 pm | Comment

Nanhey, I think I agree with you here. Very perceptive. And for me, this year, politics trumps some supposed high ideal about athletes doing their thing. Why is it that the Beijing officials and the Vancouver officials bribing olympics reps doesn’t get the p.r. that such corruption deserves. How many ordinary Chinese (and for that matter, ordinary Vancouverites) have been turned out onto the streets because of the phoney excuses that the Olympics presents? I do think there is something very much in the Olympics that does go back to the lineage of the 1936 Olympics. Olympic games often serve to camouflage fascism when they and fascism are often very much part of the same thing. I know that nanhey is not participating in some sort of anti-capitalism rant, however…well, neither am I necessarily. But I am against what capitalism has become. And the grotesqueness.

The good thing and the irony about this, is that the Games (what irony, how the Games has been edified to Godlike status!) will actually, with all the media attention placed upon it, will show what a farce the CCP (not China or the Chinese people but the CCP!, so don’t be hating on me…) has been staging. What a farce has been going on in Beijing, and what a farce the landlords, the land expropriators, the torturers, the monoculturers, those Han-ryan-Superior race advocators who hate on Taiwan.

Long live Taiwan! Down with autocracy!!!!!!!!

April 11, 2008 @ 1:20 pm | Comment

I think they capitalize “Games” because it’s a formal title, like Superbowl, which is commonly referred to as “the Bowl.”

It will be very interesting to see the net PR effect on the PRC. I had thought the past few weeks it would indeed be disastrous. Now I am less sure. One of my colleagues beamed to me today that the Chinese people have never felt closer and more unified than they do today, in light of the photos I linked to. “And it’s not just in China – it’s Chinese people all over the world,” she told me. And I believe her.

Whether the net effect will be positive or negative depends on your parameters. In the wake of Paris and London, I would think there must have been some major loss of face for the government, but now they seem to have risen from their own ashes. We’ll see.

April 11, 2008 @ 1:28 pm | Comment

Hey lets not get carried away here eh. SO the girl has one leg, so what? Connie Huq has two legs and the exact same thing happened to her. Someone tried to get the torch, oooo, like I’m gonna have nightmares of pro independance people trying to grab a symbolic torch from me, and not having my party goons less than 5 feet from me. AHHH.

I mean, yeah sure, maybe she is vulnerable cause she cant run or fight, but NO ONE WAS ATTACKING HER or her personal stuff. That torch is a symbol of opression to some Tibetans so the guy got all into grabbin’ it, whats the big deal? I mean to some Chinese the torch is a symbol of their glory, but hey, its just a torch afterall, no one was hurt and why are people blowing this Jin Jing thing out of proportion? I mean, poor Jin Jing? What happened to her? I got hit by a care a couple years ago and got more hurt and scared than she, and who cares about that?

I guess these poor Jin Jing people dont believe in the existence of gulags

April 11, 2008 @ 1:43 pm | Comment

Snow, the power of a photo like that is beyond description. Maybe those in the West won’t get sucked into its emotional pull, but I can verify as an eyewitness on the ground here that this lady is now a national hero, being interviewed and talked about everywhere.

Look at the photo of the guy in the knit cap, seventh down from the top. Can you honestly say “no one was attacking her”? When someone runs up to you and pulls something out of your arms with violence and needs to be tackled to the ground, you’ve been attacked.

This doesn’t make China right or wrong. But it does give them a badly needed PR shot in the arm. They are exploiting it to the hilt.

April 11, 2008 @ 2:01 pm | Comment

Actually I think the net effect for China will be incredibly negative. I hear a lot of people saying Chinese people worldwide have never been more unified, and I believe this. However, the world is made up of far more than Chinese people. In the long term, these people do decide on their views through photos like this one alone.

Most of the Chinese within China already had a set view about the Olympics and their own role in the world. Raj is right about this one. As for foreigners who actually care about Tibet, most of them are not going to change their opinion about the repression there because of this photo. Raj is right here too. The photo is not going to change most hearts and minds in China or outside of China.

Looking at the total effect, what the last month has done is give the free Tibet movement the type of publicity that they could never have dreamed of. The events of the last month have also given many Western politicians a renewed platform on which to criticise China. They are already pissed off over what they see as unfair trading practices.

I don’t think that anyone can deny that, overall, the last month has overwhelmingly been a foreign-relations disaster for the PRC’s Olympic dream, despite what locals think. This is because, in the long run, the games won’t be remembered for the impressive buildings or the venue or as China’s coming out party. They will be remembered for the controversy they caused. That can be nothing less than a total PR disaster.

Therefore, if I had to summarise this photo in one word, knowing the background context, I would give it a caption of “Controversy”. In the long run, the protagonist and the antagonist in the photo will be secondary.

April 11, 2008 @ 2:28 pm | Comment

http://tinyurl.com/3k9odr

Sounds like the Japanese Imperial family is out. Think there’s much chance Fukuda will show?

April 11, 2008 @ 2:29 pm | Comment

Correction: my post should say: “In the long term, these people do NOT decide on their views through photos like this one alone.”

April 11, 2008 @ 2:30 pm | Comment

The real difference between Connie Huq and Jin Jing is that the latter is Chinese. The wheelchair was simply icing on the cake. If there had been any other para-olympic athlete, the Chinese would have cared so much, but the CCP provided them with a rallying point and the protestors took the bait.

Frank Deford’s article is a great read and very true.

April 11, 2008 @ 2:35 pm | Comment

Thomas:

1. If you are talking about a PR disaster in terms of China’s image in the west, then yeah…it is a disaster. But if you are talking about Chinese government’s image within the chinese community, then it is totally opposite. And as a political party, a ruling party, the most important thing is always the view of its own ppl.

April 11, 2008 @ 2:53 pm | Comment

http://tinyurl.com/49h9qv
Ban Ki-Moon appears to have something better to do that on the day of the opening ceremonies.

http://tinyurl.com/5453ql
Here’s a non ‘western’ one; the president of Brasil must have a barbeque or a family reunion or something planned for that weekend.

April 11, 2008 @ 2:58 pm | Comment

http://tinyurl.com/49h9qv
Ban Ki-Moon appears to have something better to do on the day of the opening ceremonies.

http://tinyurl.com/5453ql
Here’s a non ‘western’ one; the president of Brasil must have a barbeque or a family reunion or something planned for that weekend too.

April 11, 2008 @ 3:01 pm | Comment

STQ:

My previous comment mentions that. What I said was that Chinese do not make up the whole world, and that most of the world is not Chinese. Remember that the Olympics were, more than anything, supposed to be a way to show how much China had advanced. The support of the games within China was never a question. Support within China has been almost universal for years. In those terms, the last month have indeed been an unequivocal disaster. Modest gains among a population that was already quite pro (preaching to the choir), huge setbacks among foreigners who otherwise had no opinion. One step forward, two steps back.

April 11, 2008 @ 3:15 pm | Comment

One of my rules: Never support a theocrat regardless how “friendly” he/she is. If I remember correctly, last theocratic movement that we supported blow up two very tall buildings in New York.

Stuart, fyi, Chinese is not an ethnic term similar to the usage of American. So yes, you can say people in Tibet are Tibetan-Chinese.

April 11, 2008 @ 3:29 pm | Comment

i agree with thomas et al – the whole thing is a pr disaster for the prc as it has turned people who don’t have an opinion on china/tibet decisively against china. the wheelchair incident is saddening, but i think people will say one turd doesn’t make a cesspool.

@arty

chinese is not an ethnic term? who says? and how is the term american ethnic?

April 11, 2008 @ 4:28 pm | Comment

So far I’d have to agree with Thomas, too. But the relay is more than a 3-day event, and will go on for another three and a half months. We won’t know the net effect for quite a while.

Of course, opinion is divided along trhe usual ideological lines: those to the right, PR disaster; those to the left, PR victory. As usual, I’m somewhere in the middle and think it’s way too early to say.

I was in total agreement with Thomas and Si a few days ago. Now I have to reservfe judgment.

April 11, 2008 @ 4:52 pm | Comment

Yes, it’s net negative for China in the western world. However, the biggest PR loser is actually DL and the TI movement. With the riot and this attack on the parathlete, most Chinese who had no opinion or who were sympathize for the Tibetans sided with the CCP. Western support has been always there and sure his holiness will get more photo ops with foreign leaders after this. But in the long term, Chinese support is essential. What MLK could have achieved without support from the white?

April 11, 2008 @ 6:46 pm | Comment

OK, friends and neighbors… this is interesting…

From what I have just heard, Ban Ki-moon is going to skip the opening ceremony?

Is this true??

Is it really due to “scheduling difficulties”???

April 11, 2008 @ 7:20 pm | Comment

@Lime – Damn, you beat me too it… by several hours.

I just got back and saw BBC and CNN (the axis of evil) reporting that.

I thought the harpies had been screaming it was an east vs. west thing…

April 11, 2008 @ 7:24 pm | Comment

“What MLK could have achieved without support from the white?”

But CLC, you fail to realise that during the Civil Rights movement, there were millions of white Americans who were bitterly opposed to the black rights movement, on the grounds that many black activists were part of a grand Communist plot to fracture and destroy the US from within. At the beginning, the movement did not have the support of most white Americans. It took years of protest for white Americans to come round to the idea.

April 11, 2008 @ 9:33 pm | Comment

@thomas

Nice seemingly off-topic article here

http://tinyurl.com/4btgw4

and its relation to PR fiasco of CH outside CH.

CH is today mainly an assembly line for products made elsewhere, or whose components with greater price margin are designed abroad.

CH is of course aware of it, and they try to go up the profit margin ladder creating their own brands and high profit margin products. In technology, design, fashion, etc: Meizu, Huawei, Haier, Lenovo, etc.

But while a person may buy a “cheap” product made in CH,… paying more for a brandish/status-bringing product with collide directly with the perceived image of CH (outside CH).

Do you think an affluent, status conscious, customer would by from CH brands equivalent to Audi/BMW/Mercedes/Ferrari/Aston Martin autos, IPOD/NOKIA/Samsung mobile phones, Armani/Vogue/Loewe fashion, H&M/Zara clothes, Boeing/Airbus aircrafts, etc, etc? I am just describing the extreme cases. (they would not mid too much if the thing was “assembled” in CH..)

My point is that a tarnished image of CH abroad means greater difficulties for CH companies to scale up the profit ladder, create their own major, world recognized, brands and penetrate sophisticated markets.

The end result, is that CH will continue letting foreign companies reap the greater profit from its own production capacity and inventiveness . Another result is limiting the entry of innovative CH products into the market, through CH companies, preventing them to be significant competitors.

For the moment most CH companies seem limited to produce as cheap as possible products to be able to enter foreign markets. This has the pernicious effect of intensifying a “race to the bottom” for CH companies inside the country.

From this point of view, yes, the OG games thing is, so far, a PR disaster for CH

April 11, 2008 @ 9:51 pm | Comment

@myself
“(they would not mid too much if the thing was “assembled” in CH..)”

As long as work place conditions comply with a minimum (for westerners) working standards….

April 11, 2008 @ 9:56 pm | Comment

It took years of protest for white Americans to come round to the idea.

True, many white Americans, especially those in the South, bitterly opposed to the black rights movement in the 1960s. We should also remember that there were elements in the rights movement that advocate violence. However, MLK was able to lead the movement, at least the mainstream of it, in a non-violent way. Furthermore, “I have a dream” was not just for the blacks, it was for the whites too. It’s more than protest that make people changing minds. It’s the ideal, the “audacity of hope” that does the magic.

In contrast, recently events demonstrated that DL was either unable or unwilling to contain the violent elements in the TI movement. That alone seriously damaged his credibility. In addition, black Americans, while a minority, consist 1/8 of the population. Tibetans consist less than 0.5% of China’s population. That makes it even more important for DL to reach out to ordinary Chinese, or at least, overseas Chinese.

So while DL have enjoyed wide respect from all over the world and his speeches are well received (I have attended one of them and felt he was a very smart person), he did not really try to engage with Chinese people. And that really puzzled me.

April 11, 2008 @ 10:56 pm | Comment

Stuart made a really interesting point earlier on. If Tibetans are Chinese citizens (which they still are, despite aspirations otherwise), then this is an internal struggle playing out on foreign soil- probably on the local taxpayer’s dime, no less.

It would be like supporters of Quebec independence jumping a torch relay for a Canadian Olympic games as it passed through China, and the Canadians fumed about a Chinese “conspiracy” against them.

Oh, but wait a minute. You are allowed to fly a Quebec flag here- in fact many government buildings don’t even have the Canadian one. And you can vote for a separatist political party. And somehow we are still part of Canada- so mysterious.

April 11, 2008 @ 11:10 pm | Comment

And First Nations can exercise sovereignty over all their land!

Oh wait, you just about killed them all. I forgot about that.

No, it would be like French Quebec independence supporters born outside of Canada rallying a huge mob of screaming Chinese people to physically and verbally assault torchbearers who have nothing to do with anything.

It borders on the retarded.

April 11, 2008 @ 11:40 pm | Comment

That’s right, ferin. I, born in 1980, killed just about all the First Nations. Give me a break.

April 11, 2008 @ 11:45 pm | Comment

“No, it would be like French Quebec independence supporters born outside of Canada”

Bad comparison- while there are undoubtedly a few around, most Quebec independence supporters can live OPENLY in Quebec- and be as vocal as they want about their desire for independence. Which is probably why they aren’t spread out around the world aggravating local populations with protests.

As for your insistence on focusing on First Nations in North America- ever heard of a place called Nunavut?

And no, I will not disagree with you that, historically, the First Nations in Canada got a brutal deal. But, it’s 2008 and things have been changing for the better. You might want to read up on treaty settlement claims.

Sorry for deviating for the topic guys, but these “your ancestors wronged some people first!” arguments just don’t fly with me. That’s like saying it’s ok to murder people because other killers have murdered people before. I don’t think that’s a defense that stands up in court. Anyways ferin, not trying to attack you or anything, it’s just a point that really gets to me sometimes.

April 12, 2008 @ 12:01 am | Comment

@pb
“But, it’s 2008 and things have been changing for the better. ”

The year 2008 translates to the Chinese year 4705-4706…. It seems they move forward with these issues much slower…. 😉

April 12, 2008 @ 12:11 am | Comment

That’s like saying it’s ok to murder people because other killers have murdered people before.

No it’s not. It’s like some guy with blood all over his face, shirt and arms stabbing a dying person the 10th, 11th, 12th time getting all huffy and criticizing maybe a rapist or a robber.

Canada is an exception because of things like Nunavut, but iirc there is still Alberta, Quebec, the Yukon, etc.

And no, the “Free Tibet” banshees mostly aren’t Tibetan, they weren’t born in and never set foot in Tibet. It’s possible they’re the descendants of people who were. What’s funny is that a lot of them have “culturally genocided” themselves by dressing, speaking and behaving like non-Tibetans.

April 12, 2008 @ 12:55 am | Comment

@Ferin
I don’t think you’ve really thought your comparison through here. If people in North America were calling for Manchurian or Inner Mongolian independence, then you might have a point. Like the Native Americans, the Manchus and Mongols have had their land ‘stolen’ and have become assimilated or at least a vast minority by settlers of historically different cultures in their own ‘homelands’. If you want to get really technical you could point out that the English (Anglo-Saxons) also did this to the Celtic peoples of what was Roman Britain in the fifth and sixth centuries.

Tibet, however, is not like this at all. The Tibetan’s land hasn’t been ‘stolen’, they aren’t a minority in their homeland, and they haven’t been assimilated. They’ve just had a foreign government of a culturally dissimilar people forced upon them. Telling White and Black North Americans to pack up and go back to Europe or Africa (which would create another land stealing scenario if it was ever feasible). This would be equivalent to telling all the culturally Chinese people to pack up and give the land back to the Mongols, but would be a quite different issue from allowing the Tibetans to move towards self rule.

The other little problem with your logic here is that British, American, and Canadian governments, the descendants of those past imperialists, have been nothing if not supportive of the PRC’s occupation of Tibet, so I don’t really understand who you’re raging at here.

April 12, 2008 @ 1:41 am | Comment

Sorry, I mean;

“Telling White and Black North Americans to pack up and go back to Europe or Africa (which would create another land stealing scenario if it was ever feasible) would be equivalent to telling all the culturally Chinese people to pack up and give the land back to the Mongols, but would be a quite different issue from allowing the Tibetans to move towards self rule.”

April 12, 2008 @ 1:45 am | Comment

I’m directing all my comments at anyone who has the audacity to assault one-legged women over their own principles of racial purity and ungrounded assertions of ‘cultural genocide’.

The reasons why the Tibetans, Mongols and Manchus are not completely wiped out is because China’s historical narrative is quite a bit different from Britain’s or Russia’s.

Every single person including me, recent immigrants as well, contribute to the continued destruction and dispossession of native cultures in Australia, the Americas, Siberia, and New Zealand.

If these people were truly pro-Tibet and not just anti-China, they would put their money where their mouth is and dedicate their lives to fulfilling native wishes because total Tibetan autonomy is NOT going to happen while the PRC is still competing with the monied “West” for resources.

April 12, 2008 @ 1:47 am | Comment

So everyone in America goes to Europe, China stops killing in Tibet? Give me a break, Ferin. They’d just suddenly come and declare America an “inseparable part of the Chinese nation since eternity.”
The Chinese empire was engaged in the imperialist game long before the West, and certainly long before it had any real contact with the West. I am not surprised at your using any possible explanation to divert responsibility from the Chinese government itself; however, this is even quite far-fetched for your type of logic.

April 12, 2008 @ 2:15 am | Comment

@Ferin
Then first off, take it up with that one guy in the picture trying to steal the torch. It’s possible he might be one of the commenters here (Amban or Ecodelta, perhaps?), but as it took place in France, there’s no particularly good reason to think he’s a North American, so telling him he’s “like some guy with blood all over his face, shirt and arms stabbing a dying person the 10th, 11th, 12th time getting all huffy and criticizing maybe a rapist or a robber” doesn’t really make sense.

Second off, what’s so different about the Inner Mongolia Mongolians and the Native American thing? Do the Mongols get to pursue the nomadic culture of their ancestors any more than the Native Americans do?

Incidentally, the Native people’s of the free world are not dead. They are the fastest growing population group in Canada. I can’t speak for the rest of developed world, but I know there has been a ton of taxpayer money invested into preserving Native language and culture in Canada. Oh, I do also know that New Zealand and the ROC both have seats in their Parliament/Legislative Yuan set aside for Maoris/Taiwanian Aborigines now. This doesn’t really matter, but it should some soften your ‘bloody murderer’ anaologies.

April 12, 2008 @ 2:19 am | Comment

The Chinese empire was engaged in the imperialist game long before the West

Nope. Learn some history, genius. Other tribes invaded China repeatedly and eventually proclaimed themselves to be Chinese for politcal reasons. If I remember correctly, the original neolithic tribes were responsible for few invasions if any; and in that case, Europe and indeed all other parts of the world had already been taking part in intraracial conflict.

Nice try, but once again your arguments are totally flaccid and don’t stand up to scruntiny.

Second off, what’s so different about the Inner Mongolia Mongolians and the Native American thing? Do the Mongols get to pursue the nomadic culture of their ancestors any more than the Native Americans do?

For one, their populations didn’t decline by a factor of 10 or 20. Secondly, they invaded China first, and not only that, they occupied China for several hundred years.

It’s also not clear that the man is French, he’s been seen in the London riots as well. Where the posters here make the mistake is refusing to blame the “international community” or various news corporations for their stupidity and their continued refusal to acknolwedge the fact that it isn’t only the CCP that is contributing to ultranationalism.

That’s not counting the handfuls of morons who think an independent Tibet is anything more than a fantasy.

Again, Canada does a fairly good job of paying for their sins. They’re certainly ahead of Australia and America.

do also know that New Zealand and the ROC both have seats in their Parliament/Legislative Yuan set aside for Maoris/Taiwanian Aborigines now.

Most Maori in NZ are assimilated, for better or worse. The Richard Gere or Dalai Lama of the Maoris would call it “cultural genocide” or “Han racial pollution”, but I digress. Taiwan’s treatment of aborigines is relatively impressive too.

April 12, 2008 @ 2:32 am | Comment

@Ferin
I didn’t say buddy was French, I just said there’s not special reason to believe he’s Canadian or American. He might even be a real born in the burbs of Lhasa Tibetan (though this is admittedly doubtful).

The pre-emptive invasion of the Song Dynasty by Mongols, if we are to accept that this should be a relevant issue, can be negated by replacing them with the Hakka or Zhuang or any other indigenous non-Chinese cultural group in the PRC (save the Manchus). The European diseases that were brought to North America were not a factor in China’s history, but I bet you could find some violent conflict over land with any of those cultural groups if you were to dig back far enough. But either way, this is all historical guilt; sins of your father type stuff. The majority Chinese PRC now governs the traditional Mongolian and Hakka homelands (which now have a culturally Sino majority), and a majority Anglo USA governs the now culturally Anglo majority traditional Sioux and Navajo homelands (which now have a culturally Anglo majority). Without unearthing a lot of skeletons, I don’t see how either current government is any more or less to blame than the other.

As for the ROC, New Zealand, and Canada, I have to disagree with you. I think that Maori and Aborigine parliament/yuan seats are an abhorrently racist farce of democracy, and in all countries, as nice as keeping some of your cultural heritage is, there comes a time when subsistence agriculture and hunting/gathering has to be abandoned and people have to become part of modern society. Never ending paternalism just has the effect of creating a dependent stagnant culture that will always be marginalised. In this, I think the PRC has actually done a much better job with the Mongols and Manchus than the Canadian government has done with its treaty and reservation system.

April 12, 2008 @ 3:07 am | Comment

In that case you’d support excising the Dalai Lama as a feudal relic?

April 12, 2008 @ 3:39 am | Comment

@ferin

“In that case you’d support excising the Dalai Lama as a feudal relic?
Posted by: ferin at April 12, 2008 03:39 AM”

The CCP itself is a feudal relic, choosing leaders in the same way imperial courts have done for millenia and binding people to the land of their birth by the hukou system. Peasants in China live the level of life that their ancestors did 1000 years ago (but back then the environment was cleaner).

April 12, 2008 @ 4:03 am | Comment

That’s true. The thing is, whenever a government collapses immediately the people suffer, so it’s better to just take them apart bit by bit unless there’s an emergency.

April 12, 2008 @ 4:20 am | Comment

@Ferin

Nope. Learn some history, genius. Other tribes invaded China repeatedly and eventually proclaimed themselves to be Chinese for politcal reasons.

No, you better go to the library. Historians have demolished the myth of “peaceful Chinese expansion” long ago. And they have showed that Chinese empires were just as belligerent as other empires in history. No more and no less.

Read up on the Sui invasions of Korea or the Ming invasion of Vietnam. You can also take look at the extermination campaigns against the Zunghars during the Qing, which made Xinjiang part of China. Another episode which may be of interest is the suppression of the Panthay rebellion, the suppression of which shifted the demography of Yunnan permanently. There is plenty of literature about all of this and I can give you a reading list if you want to.

For one, their populations didn’t decline by a factor of 10 or 20. Secondly, they [the Mongols] invaded China first, and not only that, they occupied China for several hundred years.

This kind of argument always crack me up. We are told by our PRC apologists that Mongols are “Chinese” and the Yuan dynasty was a “Chinese dynasty,” which controlled Tibet. Hence Tibet should belong to China. The next moment, we are told that Mongols invaded and occupied China. We see the same kind of rhetoric in regard to the Qing dynasty.

Apparently, “national minorities” are only useful as long as the expand the territories that China now claims and they are a convenient scapegoat for atrocities that have taken place in China. You can’t have the cake and eat it.

April 12, 2008 @ 5:49 am | Comment

Historians have demolished the myth of “peaceful Chinese expansion”

Did I say “peaceful expansion”? I said the various ethnic and geographic components of China just repeatedly invaded and attacked eachother, just like the various groups in Europe, Americas, Oceania and Africa.

You can also take look at the extermination campaigns against the Zunghars during the Qing, which made Xinjiang part of China.

The Qing was made up of a different ethnic group, last I checked. Xinjiang was also “part of China” during the Tang and variously in other dynasties.

the suppression of which shifted the demography of Yunnan permanently.

Like the establishment of Nanzhao and the Miao migrations? Whats your point? I think it’s already well established how European colonization is different from all of this. Namely, the size, scale and frequency of it. But how does all of this play into your ridiculous fantasies of a Free Tibet before a Free America?

This kind of argument always crack me up. We are told by our PRC apologists that Mongols are “Chinese” and the Yuan dynasty was a “Chinese dynasty,”

Except I never said the Mongols were Chinese, and the only way China’s presence in Tibet is legitimized is the “we invaded it, it’s ours” argument. Don’t make stupid assumptions and pull the “you’re a commie” card because you have no argument.

April 12, 2008 @ 6:00 am | Comment

Oh okay whatever, I’ll just go with you an nanhe- why don’t we split China up into little ethnic nationalist city-states? That will solve all of China’s problems. Civil war and total destabilization have always been a great thing, that’s why America is still divided between North and South and why Serbia is such a prosperous and modern nation.

If there’s someone who is half Manchu and half Han we’ll surgically separate the two sides. Or maybe we should go down to the molecular level to preserve racial-ethnic integrity? I hear they’re developing lasers that could possibly accomplish that feat.

What a joke.

April 12, 2008 @ 6:19 am | Comment

The Qing was made up of a different ethnic group, last I checked. Xinjiang was also “part of China” during the Tang and variously in other dynasties.

Yes, the Manchus were in charge of the Qing. And 700 years separates the fall of Tang with the Qing conquest of Xinjiang.

I think it’s already well established how European colonization is different from all of this. Namely, the size, scale and frequency of it.

Say who? You?

Oh okay whatever, I’ll just go with you an nanhe- why don’t we split China up into little ethnic nationalist city-states? That will solve all of China’s problems.

I beg your pardon. Where have I argued for the division of China or whatever? I just think it would be a good idea to give Tibetans a say in how Tibet is run. For starters.

April 12, 2008 @ 6:28 am | Comment

Yes, the Manchus were in charge of the Qing. And 700 years separates the fall of Tang with the Qing conquest of Xinjiang.

The main thing is that both the Uighur and Dzungar pushed people out of Xinjiang as well.

Say who? You?

Do you really want me to pull up death toll statistics from the 1600s up until now? Sheesh.

give Tibetans a say in how Tibet is run

How would you suggest that be implemented? It wouldn’t happen following America’s model of democracy either, because they’d just be cut down by the other 99.5% of the population.

April 12, 2008 @ 6:45 am | Comment

@Ferin

If I was a Tibetan, or someone who counted making Tibet a modern first world nation among his priorities, I could support the Dalai Lama as a constitutional monarch like the monarch of Britain, as a religious figure affiliated with and controlled by the government, like the Tenno of Japan, or, preferably, a religious a leader with no legal or political affiliation with the state, like the Church of Latter Day Saints’ Prophet, all of which are feudal relics to one extent or another. I would not want him to be an absolute monarch, no. But that said, if you look at Zimbabwe, being anti-Bob Mugabe or even anti-Ian Smith, does not mean that you would want the British foreign office back in charge.

I’m with you on the no abrupt pull out. To pull out the PLA immediately would be as stupid and harmful as pulling all the American soldiers out of Iraq in the next two months. That said, PRC should be taking steps towards Tibetan home rule by starting to develop a colonial government that can remain stable and functional in the post-independence period. By taking the initiative, they might be able to effectively cut a hostile Dalai Lama government out, if that’s what they wish to do.

April 12, 2008 @ 7:06 am | Comment

They need to increase investment in education and health and then just let the Dalai Lama back as a constitutional monarch and religious figure as you say.

But for obvious reasons I don’t think China would ever completely let go of control of Tibet’s natural resources and river systems.. as long as they pay the Tibetans market price for stuff they extract.

April 12, 2008 @ 7:10 am | Comment

@nanhe
The CCP started Cultural Revolution with the slogan to kill off the evil relics of the past. Unfortunately, most of the relics of the past ending up being destroyed were priceless cultural ones, and the worst evil relics still remain, such as gender discrimination, corruption, etc.. By law, they are illegal, but that’s hardly saying anything when people would rather govern by people, relations, and loopholes instead of by law. But that is not an evil limited to the CCP, and has less to do with communism than with cultural inheritance and the unaccountability of any dictatorship/authoritarian state.
You know very little about how peasants in China live. You know even less about how peasants in China used to live 1000 years ago. Please stop talking as if peasants in all regions of China lived alike or as if you knew a lot about that topic. Thanks.

@snow
Qigong, as having been explained to me, is a sort of philosophical medicine. It’s an exercise of mind and body being in harmony with natural forces. In all my various attempts at practicing a few flavors of it (sickly child), I have never seen any of the “quit the CCP now or you will have the mark of the Beast upon you” or “those who get sick while practicing this are agents of the Beast” type of butchered Bible speak that Falun Gong has. It claims to aim for “truth, benevolence, and endurance,” but that Epoch Times person I saw in a link in another thread seemed pretty manipulative (presenting evidence out of context), malevolent (something about REALLY hating China), and aggressive (well…at least argumentative, in-your-face). Yes, I think it is a cult. Yes, I think Canada is a haven for tax evaders and corrupt officials from China to claim political asylum when investigators show up at their door. No, I don’t think it should be allowed to regard cult members as a living organs base. I just wonder how much else that article got wrong, that’s all.

<venting>
I talked with relatives in China late last night. They told me a cousin couldn’t answer the phone because she was in the hospital receiving treatment for depression and eating disorder.
What’s funny about some of the major criticisms of the Chinese government these days is that they remind me strongly of the saying “damned if you do and damned if you don’t.” Let’s start with pollution. An average Chinese person (that I have met, at least) produces much less pollution and consumes much, much less resources. During my visits to my relatives in China, I am often surprised at how little water/gas/electricity they use in their daily lives. Water used to rinse and wash vegetables is usually saved to wash dishes later, and water to wash rice with can be great for doing laundry or watering the garden. At night, in the family room, when everyone gathers to talk, everyone has a fan in their hand to keep cool, and the only electrical light in the room comes from the little cousin doing her homework over in a corner. Yet critics would complain about how much pollution China’s producing. Can those factories perhaps put more effort into better and cleaner technology or invest more money into cleaning up after themselves? Certainly. But then they’d have to raise the prices of their products. If they end up having a smaller profit margin, then they’d have to lay off workers. Human rights groups can talk about the evils of sweatshops all they want, but if they tried cleaning up one of those, I can bet the first people at their throats would be the same workers they are trying to protect/help. When work is difficult to find even for college graduates and the government cannot afford to feed most of the jobless and able bodied, people are not choosy, to say the least. So then, how would you solve this problem of having too many people competing for limited resources, given that being more productive requires better education requires more money requires more resources? The brilliant leaders of the CCP decided “ah, we can limit people from having too many kids so we can end up with a population implosion or at least have it stable instead of always growing.” It seemed to work. Among the better educated, at least, who have more or less taken our approach of only producing as many children as can be supported, anyway. But where this plan failed miserably and set off human rights groups’ alarms everywhere is with the less educated. They must have sons. It’s not just about having the field hands, since daughters can do just as well, if allowed to, but mostly about passing on family lineage and family blood (since daughters are considered to belong to other people). As any sufficiently educated person may know, even though gender ratio on average is close to 1:1, many couples have a much higher chance to produce children of one gender than the other. Prior to the birth-control laws, these families would give births to children until they got a boy, which could mean five or more daughters in the mean time. More often than not, such families would also be unable to support that many children as we would raise our own kids. So the girls would get the short straw–help with work starting at a young age and married off ASAP, if lucky, or abandoned/sold/sent away if unlucky. Post birth-control laws…well, there are ways to get around laws. Including abortion. Including “accidents.” When I read reports lamenting how the Chinese villagers the reporter met love children, I cannot help but think of the mother who caused “accidents” to happen to her daughters so she could maybe someday be allowed to give birth to a son. The CCP’s slogan is “have fewer children but raise them well.” I can hardly see how it is their fault that some “parents” would gender select their own child to the point of murder. Many critics also sympathize with boys who were born this way in that they would be without wives. I would like to see how that sympathy goes when said critics had their female relatives kidnapped, raped, and forced to fill that niche, as I have seen in several documentaries. After all, passing of the family bloodline is paramount, and the ancestors are all watching (violation of filial duty was one of the gravest sins, traditionally punishable by death, and the saying goes that the greatest offense of three ways to violate filial duty was not having a son).
Forgive the rant. This cousin was bright and cheerful and always knew the fun spots around town, until a visit a few years back, when she sort of shrank from my hug and told me she found out from the neighbors’ gossiping a few months ago that she was abandoned and adopted. My aunt interrupted her and said she was her daughter (using a term of endearment), end of story, and later explained to us that she was the doctor in charge of the nursery, and that the couple from another province had vanished without a trace after my cousin was born. People like that, IMHO, deserve every bit of self-inflicted pain they get.
</venting>

April 12, 2008 @ 7:27 am | Comment

how would you solve this problem of having too many people competing for limited resources

Punish corrupt officials and wastrels severely. Overseas Chinese should pitch in and help with more donations.. they invest a lot but sure are stingy when it comes to giving to charity. Only 4 billion yuan last year.

April 12, 2008 @ 7:33 am | Comment

How would you suggest that be implemented?

Well, Beijing could allow Tibet a similar arrangement as Hong Kong is enjoying right now. Hong Kong is not complete democracy (never was), but you can vent your anger peacefully in a demonstration if you wish, without the police sending you to . And even though Hong Kong is part of China, not anyone can just move in, because Hong Kong has border control. And you can live a decent life in Hong Kong without speaking a word of English or Mandarin.

April 12, 2008 @ 7:40 am | Comment

Tibet is much bigger than Hong Kong though, I don’t think they would ever allow 25% of the territory to self-govern. The PRC would benefit a lot of it just lifted the lid on objective and well-sourced criticism across all of China and not just Tibet.

And you can live a decent life in Hong Kong without speaking a word of English or Mandarin.

I think it will improve substantially as the region develops. A lot of the people in Tibet and elsewhere in China never really had a chance to learn skills needed for jobs. As migrant workers come in from other regions they open up markets and services that Tibetans can settle into.

Maybe the central government can help fund the purchase of Han-owned businesses by Tibetans.

April 12, 2008 @ 7:59 am | Comment

Of course, ferin completely doged my question about “palefaces” moving back to Europe solving the Tibet problem. Clearly, there is no link, and suggesting one is the equivalent of a kindergartener who has shitted his pants blaming it on someone else.
Furthermore, Ferin wants to dispute my claim that China was engaged in a game of imperialism long before his favorite admittedly vague and broad whipping boy, the West, yet he wants to assert that Xinjiang was part of China during the Tang. Does anyone else see a contradiction here?
Furthermore, history is of no consequence for the situation in Tibet. When you see something immoral and wrong that is happening, it does not matter whether Tibet was historically part of China or independent. What matters is that the crimes committed in the present day by the chinese regime be brought to an end.
Finally, Ferin insists that he is from Taiwan. I don’t know, but if it is true, it would explain why he is living abroad in North America, as I imagine that putting forward these types of arguments in favor of the authoritarian Chinese empire would get him laughed out of Taiwan!

April 12, 2008 @ 8:18 am | Comment

Clearly, there is no link

Try thinking for half a second. If you go back to Europe then you won’t have all those lovely murdered Native resources and their stolen land to compete with China.

Then China will be more likely to split into pieces as you desire.

Does anyone else see a contradiction here?

No because apparently your knowledge of history only extends back to 500 AD.

Hm what about the Greco-Persian Wars? Peloponnesian Wars? Ever hear of Alexander the Great? Don’t be dumb.

as I imagine that putting forward these types of arguments in favor of the authoritarian Chinese empire would get him laughed out of Taiwan!

Ad populum and straw man.

April 12, 2008 @ 8:33 am | Comment

Go back to England, paleface, and take your tea and crumpets with you.

April 12, 2008 @ 8:34 am | Comment

@@.@
“This cousin was bright and cheerful and always knew the fun spots around town, until a visit a few years back, when she sort of shrank from my hug and told me she found out from the neighbors’ gossiping a few months ago that she was abandoned and adopted.”

The real father and mother are those that have you closer to their heart. What could be better than that?

Not all members of a family are born under the same roof.

April 12, 2008 @ 8:49 am | Comment

@Kevin
Too be honest, suggesting that China was engaged in imperialism long before the ‘west’ is pretty goofy unless you define ‘the west’ as White people since the age of discovery. The west is a ridiculous term anyways, being just a reversal of the notion of the ‘mysterious orient’; which meant everything in Eurasia and Africa south of Gibraltar and east of Vienna. In every respect, except skin colour, the Japanese are as ‘western’ now as Americans, so if we are just talking about skin colour, let’s say white people and stop confusing the issue.
Imperialism has existed in every part of the world since the discovery of settled agriculture, so I guess the Egyptians or the Babylonians were the proto-imperialists. Were they orientals or westerners? Anybody’s opinion is as good as the next.

April 12, 2008 @ 9:00 am | Comment

“To be honest”
God I’m stupid.

April 12, 2008 @ 9:07 am | Comment

My mom’s side of the family is sort of an Amazon setting lol. My grandma gave birth to 5 daughters, every single one bright and hardworking, not even one laid off when they were scrapping government jobs nationwide. My grandpa’s always been proud of his girls. =D
Now if only more people in China could be like that. >.>
…And if only my cousin could realize we love her as a family member, not because we pity her or feel sorry for her or anything. My aunt was sobbing last night because she couldn’t seem to get her to shake off that feeling of inferiority…
Words of wisdom shall be propagated. Thanks. =)

@ferin: They must be caught before they have the chance to run away (and claim political asylum =P) somewhere though. So investigations are hard. It’s a good thing embezzlement can be punishable by death. God knows those people’s money are soaked in blood. Also, I was talking more about resources in general, not just money. Money without the stuff to back it up is just paper, after all.

April 12, 2008 @ 9:15 am | Comment

@Ferin
Well Great Britain gave up about 1/5 of the earth’s surface and all the natural resources that went with it, and it has managed to grow continually richer (in absolute terms). I still see no particularly good reason why, if and when any natural resources worth talking about ever materialise in Tibet, there needs to be a political union to extract them, especially considering that the China-Tibet railway will almost certainly remain the only realistic way to get them out of the country.

I think what we can agree on is that the particular approach that the PRC has taken, despite successes in Manchuria, Inner Mongolia, and elsewhere, is failing in Tibet. Keeping a gun to the collective head of a province within your ‘nation’ is not a good long term solution, and is a major embarassment. The PRC should, and I expect will, have to make a change of somekind sooner than later.

April 12, 2008 @ 9:26 am | Comment

LIme, I agree, the whole idea of “the West” is tired and useless. If I sat around talking about “the East,” people would find it ridiculous. Somehow, people still imagine that a “West” exists.

April 12, 2008 @ 9:26 am | Comment

@@.@, et al.
One thing that I was pleasently surprised by in China was just how little discrimination there seemed to be against women. It did not appear to be any worse than in Canada, and perhaps better. I think I easily saw more policewomen while I was there than I ever have in Alberta (on a per capita basis of course). Mind you I spent most of my time in urban areas, so I can’t speak to the rural cultures.

April 12, 2008 @ 9:35 am | Comment

“One thing that I was pleasently surprised by in China was just how little discrimination there seemed to be against women”

Ever wonder why you don’t see pregnant women at work? Ask some why they make it a point not to get pregnant or to hide their pregnancy for as long as possible.

And how many women do you see within the CCP’s higher ranks?

April 12, 2008 @ 9:53 am | Comment

One thing that I was surprised by in China was just how much discrimination was perpetrated against women, all the while claiming equality between men and women.

April 12, 2008 @ 10:06 am | Comment

“Maybe the central government can help fund the purchase of Han-owned businesses by Tibetans.”

You’re dreaming again. Besides, the drafting in of Han-Chinese with their business interests and jack boots lies at the heart of the discontent and resentment felt by the marginalised Tibetans.

Deflect the issue all you like with off-topic comparisons, but the China’s policies in Tibet have most definitely resulted in cultural genocide. Oh yes, and a few Tibetans seem to have gone missing in the process.

Returning to the relay squabble, the passport credentials of the guy attempting to wrest the torch from jin jing are not important. Assuming he is of Tibetan descent (and that Tibetans are Chinese), then China’s possessive doctrine concerning all people of Chinese blood still dictates that this was an all-Chinese exhibition in a foreign land.

April 12, 2008 @ 10:22 am | Comment

Yeah. It’s the law to have gender equality, but you’d be surprised how many men and even women completely ignore it. As mean as it sounds, I hope those men cannot find wives except for those women. They’d deserve each other.
An online author I love went through something like that. She was the top student in her graduating class, but all three students chosen by the school to stay and teach (read: job) were male. When she went to the school for an explanation, they hinted vaguely at relations and backdoors, but one professor who really liked her told her it was because she was a girl (he told her the truth because he was very upset at the school’s decision). Something like girls needed to get married and raise kids and all that excrement. She’s a teacher now and writes online fiction in her spare time. Her stories are…wow.

April 12, 2008 @ 10:47 am | Comment

Well Great Britain gave up about 1/5 of the earth’s surface and all the natural resources that went with it

Mostly because they already had a good run, using a lot of the world’s resources and labor to disproportionately benefit themselves.

The only reason they gave it all up was because it stopped being a profitable enterprise and because of the wars in Europe.

is failing in Tibet.

Tibet is far away and really inaccessible. iirc the TAR is doing better than Yunnan and Sichuan.

One thing that I was surprised by in China was just how much discrimination was perpetrated against women

There’s work to do, but at least they don’t go around ordering mailorder brides, going to Southeast Asia for sex with little girls, beat women, and rape at a ridiculously high rate like Australians/Americans/Canadians/Europeans. I forget which one of these was dubbed the child porn capital of the world but 1-10 were all “Western” countries.

Besides, the drafting in of Han-Chinese with their business interests and jack boots lies at the heart of the discontent and resentment felt by the marginalised Tibetans.

And you know this, how? Like I’ve said a million times before, it wouldn’t mostly be young unemployed men and business owners if everyone were truly miserable.

but the China’s policies in Tibet have most definitely resulted in cultural genocide.

Yes, by Western influence. Just like the rest of China. Oh and the CCP has “culturally genocide’d” every single place in China.

Assuming he is of Tibetan descent

Sure doesn’t look like one.

April 12, 2008 @ 11:04 am | Comment

She’s a teacher now and writes online fiction in her spare time. Her stories are…wow.

Stuff like that hurts everyone in China for sure.

April 12, 2008 @ 11:06 am | Comment

*go to Southeast Asia

April 12, 2008 @ 11:08 am | Comment

Here’s a video of CIA activities in Tibet:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=RDySPYjJpqg&e

Richard, do you still deny there’s American intervention (covert, military) in Tibet?

Please answer this to me, thanms.

April 12, 2008 @ 12:19 pm | Comment

I guess I was fooled by appearances on the gender discrimination thing.

@Ferin

“iirc the TAR is doing better than Yunnan and Sichuan.”

The TAR maybe ecconomically doing better than Yunnan and Sichuan (though I doubt this would be true if you factored in the amount of taxpayer money that the government pumped into Tibet), but the only large riots that I’ve heard about in Sichuan and Yunnan are the ones carried out by Tibetans presumably dissatisfied with some aspect of the Tibet-PRC relationship.
The failure is political. They haven’t made Tibet a willing part of the PRC nation is my point.

“The only reason they gave it all up was because it stopped being a profitable enterprise and because of the wars in Europe.”

Actually World War I expanded the British Empire to its height as they absorbed most of the German colonies and some of the Ottoman Empire, but the unprofitable bit is bang on.

“Mostly because they already had a good run, using a lot of the world’s resources and labor to disproportionately benefit themselves.”

And arguably this what Britain and the rest of the free world continues to do this without having politcal control over the nations that they do the most profitable trade with.

“There’s work to do, but at least they don’t go around ordering mailorder brides, going to Southeast Asia for sex with little girls, beat women, and rape at a ridiculously high rate like Australians/Americans/Canadians/Europeans. I forget which one of these was dubbed the child porn capital of the world but 1-10 were all “Western” countries.”

If you’re honestly suggesting that ‘Western’ (I assume you mean ‘White’ here) people are some how more genetically or culturally predisposed to pedophilia I think you’re flirting with out and out biggotry/racism here, and should have a good hard think about other reasons why cases of pedophilia are more commonly reported in ‘western’ countries than say Africa, South East Asia, or China.

April 12, 2008 @ 12:50 pm | Comment

The pre-emptive invasion of the Song Dynasty by Mongols, if we are to accept that this should be a relevant issue, can be negated by replacing them with the Hakka or Zhuang or any other indigenous non-Chinese cultural group in the PRC (save the Manchus).

The most fertile regions in China are occupied by the Han, while the isolated/mountainous/otherwise less desirable lands tend to be minority regions. Coincidence?

April 12, 2008 @ 12:53 pm | Comment

Red Star, I will answer your question as soon as you show me where I ever made such a denial.

April 12, 2008 @ 12:57 pm | Comment

at least they don’t go around ordering mailorder brides, going to Southeast Asia for sex with little girls, beat women, and rape at a ridiculously high rate

Are you sure? I’m not trying to be racist here, but whoring does seem to be an integral part of Chinese business culture. Plenty of Chinese businessmen visit Southeast Asia, I’m sure they visit the local brothels in the same proportions they do back home. I’ve heard female North Korean refugees are available in China for a price. Mail order brides are available in Taiwan and surely nobody is going to be so “unpatriotic” as to suggest a cultural difference between China and Taiwan.

April 12, 2008 @ 1:33 pm | Comment

Jing Jin is the most beautiful girl in the world, the most beautiful.

Newest episode of CCTV’s News magazine show >. This episode was just uploaded to Youtube, it’s called “Defense of the Sacred Flame”

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=qUgGlSmq-0Q

April 12, 2008 @ 1:53 pm | Comment

“Jing Jin is the most beautiful girl in the world, the most beautiful.”

There is, of course, no such thing. But I understand your CCP-induced emotional turmoil.

As someone said earlier, there is a need to remove this woman’s disability from the issue in order to comment objectively.

On a side note, there is significant discrimination against disabled people looking for jobs in China, and a serious shortfall in facilities that would make their lives easier. It is all too easy, therefore, to conclude that the CCP are exploiting this woman’s disability for their own propaganda purposes.

April 12, 2008 @ 2:24 pm | Comment

The gender discrimination is there due to long tradition. It’s one evil I would have liked to see disappear in the Cultural Revolution, but in reality there is really nothing to fight against ignorance except education. Knowledge is needed to help people realize that it’s preposterous to have over half of the population’s abilities go to waste, and also to help people fight off the truly malevolent bums who would prefer to keep women at home to ensure dominance. If you look closely enough, just about every country has people like said bums. With the way both parents tend to need to work in the cities to keep a middle class family going, I’m sure the CCP has this item on their list of things to be worked on. It’s just that this list is probably huge, and this particular item definitely takes time.

April 12, 2008 @ 3:00 pm | Comment

There is, of course, no such thing. But I understand your CCP-induced emotional turmoil.

On a side note, there is significant discrimination against disabled people looking for jobs in China, and a serious shortfall in facilities that would make their lives easier. It is all too easy, therefore, to conclude that the CCP are exploiting this woman’s disability for their own propaganda purposes.

This is the most sick comment ever, the most sick.

You insult the dignity of the girl, who bravely defended the torch from constant assaults, you probably would have assaulted her as well if you were there.

You have not a single shred of human decency left. Why not say those things to her face, you suck fuck.

I should not have given in to that 10 minutes of pleasure in the Beijing bathroom decades ago, otherwise, you would not be here spewing such vile feces.

April 12, 2008 @ 3:04 pm | Comment

Um…as far as I can tell, she wanted to be there. She was happy she was chosen. By their actions, the rogues appeared to be the ones who thought a less protected disabled person would make an easier target than, say, a completely healthy athlete who could at least run away or fight back more easily. Trying to overturn that is pretty dirty politics. I’m talking Mark Twain grab-onto-leg-and-call-daddy type dirty.
Richard, to the sufficiently politically determined, I don’t think anything could tug at their heartstrings. After all, there is really nothing that can’t be explained by conspiracy theories.

April 12, 2008 @ 3:14 pm | Comment

In the last three cities: London, Paris, San Francisco where the torch relay took place. The amount of Chinese immigrants/students who showed up to support the relay and oppose the protests were absolutely overwhelming. In each city, the pro Olympic supporters way way outnumbered the Free Tibet crowd.

They are all just regular Chinese residents, some on student visas, some are Green card holders, some are American citizens. Some came to the US for less than a year, others have been here for more than 15 years. There are men, women, parents, teachers, professors, engineers, and even grandparents. I personally know many families who spent many weekends going door to door to distribute flyers, either supporting the Olympics or countering many Free Tibet group’s talking points. I know a Chinese mother in SF, with 2 children, who took a week off work to design posters, organize “strategy meetings” with her local friends for the rally on the day of the torch relay, etc.

The last night there’s such an overwhelming amount of energy displayed in the the overseas Chinese community was, ironically, in 1989, against the Chinese gov’t.

I think even the Western press was genuinely surprised by the resistance faced by the Chinese community across Europe and America over this issue. Usually, Chinese living overseas are often split on many issues, and complain and criticize the Chinese gov’t often. But there are these “bottom line” issues that absolutely we will not budge, and if you push us, we will push back, as you have seen in London, in Paris, in SF, and will continue.

In this society, you need to speak up to have your opinion and voices heard. No one will hand you a free microphone, no one will voluntarily come and listen to you. You need to protest, march, fight, otherwise you’ll always been seen as a Chinese sheep, and the Tibetan movements and activists know about this and wants to take advantage of this. Well this time, to be honest, even myself was surprised by the unity and energy and resistance displayed in Chinese communities across the world. The message is simple, “we won’t take it anymore”.

I think after this series of events are over, the Chinese overseas community will emerge more united, more purposeful, and more strenghened. And there’ll be some organization established to speak up for us, maybe some lobbying group also.

Sorry for rambling, it’s late at night, and I just had a sudden surge of emotion in light of the events of the past week, and was stimulated to let it out all by stuart’s comments above.

April 12, 2008 @ 3:40 pm | Comment

Several addenda:

The last night (should be “the last time”) there’s such an overwhelming amount of energy displayed in the the overseas Chinese community was, ironically, in 1989, against the Chinese gov’t.

I think even the Western press was genuinely surprised by the resistance faced by (should be “provided by”, or “originated from”) the Chinese community across Europe and America over this issue.

April 12, 2008 @ 3:45 pm | Comment

Pomfret’s latest on Kevin Rudd….

http://tinyurl.com/3r2cb9

April 12, 2008 @ 3:58 pm | Comment

Guys, I am closing this thread – please post your comments to the thread above, same topic.

April 12, 2008 @ 4:42 pm | Comment