Math,

Rather than have you cut and paste a two-year old Duck Pond post, I’m just going to refer readers to the original:

http://www.chinalyst.net/node/12666

– Jeremiah

April 2, 2008 @ 11:51 am | Comment

Considering how quickly Math put up his comment after Jeremiah posted, I’d have to conclude he has a bank of pre-written “essays” ready and waiting.

This notion that elections = chaos is one of the CCP’s sacred cows and an example of CCP propaganda at its very best. Many Chinese people truly believe this with all their hearts, just as they believe Tibet was “liberated.” This has led in turn to another sacred cow meme, namely that the Tiananmen Square Massacre was a shame, but in the end it was the right thing to do and China is better off for it, although our hearts go out to the families of those who died (code for “were murdered”).

China won’t give up this sacred cow anytime soon. As long as it’s upheld and “proven” with news clips of Taiwanese legislators punching each other in the face the CCP is safe. The minute people see through this canard, the CCP is impossibly vulnerable. That’s why they are always so hysterical about propaganda and suppressing free speech. Yeah, it’s gotten better, but they are still hysterical and the whole world knows it.

Whether China is “ready for democracy” is another issue. I say there’s no time like the present, but I also wonder what would fill the gap, who could step in and take over. The party’s brutal suppression of opposing voices helps guarantee the absence of any other political force in China, a true tragedy.

April 2, 2008 @ 11:58 am | Comment

The argument that China was not suitable for elections was always BS anyway. And the CCP would not copy a Taiwan model, since it could lead to multiple parties, loss of CCP power and ‘loss of face’ or some similar excuse.

Plus, Taiwan clearly is not a part of China 😉

April 2, 2008 @ 11:59 am | Comment

One Chinese academic was quoted in the SCMP today as saying that Hong Kong’s business elites would really need time to adjust to universal sufferage in the territory because democracy would result in more support for grassroots organisations, which would thereby erode the traditional elite status that business groups have had in Hong Kong. This could potentially cause disorder, he feels.

I found this quite interesting because it shows that as the excuses for why Hong Kong is not ready for universal sufferage are becoming harder and harder to digest based on the relatively high level of education, high level of political awareness and high income of the territory’s residents (they are no lower than in Taiwan certainly), more creative excuses must constantly be found by pro-China scholars.

Beijing is allowing universal sufferage in 2017 you say? Funny how the central government is not willing to discuss the possible terms of the election, leaving the possibility of hand-picked candidates open.

Now put the recent elections in Bhutan next to this. Bhutan has undergone no industrialisation at all, so the society is quite poor. By Chinese propaganda standards, wouldn’t the residents of Bhutan be even less ready for elections than the Chinese?

Oh, but the Bhutan people are culturally different, right? Well they are pretty close in culture to the Tibetans. And the Tibetans are Chinese, right? So the Tibetans should be able to elect their local leaders directly without much of a problem.

Whether the Chinese people care or not, it amazes me that more Chinese people do not feel insulted by their own goverment’s insistence that they are not ready for democracy.

April 2, 2008 @ 12:28 pm | Comment

I think we’ll have to wait and see whether and how Taiwan’s democracy is hollowed out under the KMT before we start writing paeans to it. I’m curious if/when the KMT starts hollowing it out, the debate over “Chinese democracy” regresses to a more pessimistic position.

Michael

April 2, 2008 @ 12:41 pm | Comment

I really don’t know what to believe. The Chinese people has been complaining that the democracy in US and other western world are all controlled by big money and Jews, while they caution the Hong Kong rich that the grassroot only will get what they want.

Is democracy just for the rich or just for the poor, or both ?

April 2, 2008 @ 1:59 pm | Comment

Axl Rose has been working on Chinese Democracy for quite some time now. (chuckle to self)
Anyway, the idea that any people is “unfit” for democracy is tragically condescending. It would be completely politically incorrect if it hadn’t become part of the tired old Chinese propaganda machine, from which it has saturated Chinese society and then caught the attention of people around the world who will grab onto anything to rationalize the irrational nature of the contemporary Chinese political system. Of course, when Chinese say this about democracy not fitting China, they’re only being condescending towards other Chinese and themselves (because everyone will say “of course I’m smart enough to handle it!”)

April 2, 2008 @ 2:37 pm | Comment

After democracy, then what?

Chinese certainly deserve democracy but why the west so care about the democratic progress in China, or any other developing countries?

A cynical answer is it would be a lot easier for them to find a proxy in any one of the parties to influence China on its foreign and interior, economic and political policies. That’s the potential chaos we should really worry about.

April 2, 2008 @ 4:58 pm | Comment

@Bing
“After democracy, then what?”

Peace and prosperity! 😉

“A cynical answer is it would be a lot easier for them to find a proxy in any one of the parties to influence China on its foreign and interior, economic and political policies.”
Hhhhmmm the US/western/extern-enemy-power could find a proxy in any given form of government.

Theoretically In a more open system this proxy would have to work hard to hide their true intentions from public scrutiny.

And theoretically in a closed system, with information control, its work could be made easier due to the secrecy inherent into the system.

April 2, 2008 @ 6:38 pm | Comment

Given how often Chinese people complain that the CCP is not hard enough on Japan, the US, etc. I find it hard to believe that a Chinese democracy would be any softer on the West.
Anyway, this reminds me how mainland friends asked if Taiwan was “unstable” recently. I told them it was no more unstable than the US gets every election year.
It also reminds me of the other excuse offered by mainlanders for Taiwan’s relatively advanced economic and political systems- that Taiwan is easier to manage because it’s smaller. Think about that for a minute and see what conclusion you get.

April 2, 2008 @ 6:53 pm | Comment

All this talk about the KMT and the hollowing out of Taiwanese democracy is just sour grapes at this point.

April 2, 2008 @ 9:04 pm | Comment

@Bing

Just consider the lot of excitement you are missing…

Imagine a preliminary election with…

Hillary Wu Yi against Obama Wen Jiabao

Or something similar.

Who could be identified McCain or Bush in China?

April 2, 2008 @ 9:22 pm | Comment

In Canada, if you are not suitable to vote (if you do not know whats going on with gov. stuff) you just dont vote. Its not like the people who ‘are not ready’ will throw off the whole country or something cause they vote stupidly… (basically the greediest peole with the most drive end up controlling the votes I think.) But I think in China it would be different. The people,if set free, are quite ideolist, they have values and they are really smart.

They are just as responsible as any one in the world, if not more (without the CCP)

and I think that is exactly where the problem lies for the party, the people are much ——-TOO CAPABLE—— of making all sorts of smart plans and decisions. the CCP people know darn well that if there were elections, people would not vote for the most corrupt party, ccp, who lies to them and pretends to be God.

classic opposite speak.
they are not capable of taking part in democracy = their capability scares us to death! Freedom and justice will be our end!!! down with all subversive elements! AHHHHHH!!!

“”””””Considering how quickly Math put up his comment after Jeremiah posted, I’d have to conclude he has a bank of pre-written “essays” ready and waiting.”””””””””

You could also say:
Condidering how quickly state run hospitals in China offer healthy young internal organs to rich people (since the persecution of Falun Gong began and organ transplants skyrocjeted), it is one of the evidences that they have a huge bank of live prisoners ready and waiting to be killed to order.

http://organharvestinvestigation.net/

April 2, 2008 @ 11:34 pm | Comment

Someday the Chinese people will realize that the 29 intellectuals and scholars who published an open letter to the Chinese government urging a reform of Tibet policy are heroes. I am deeply concerned about their welfare, as these brave moral leaders will almost certainly be punished by the Chinese government for their outspoken criticism of the government�s brutal Tibetan policy.

The Olympic torch was lit recently in China, but it isn’t the torch the Chinese people wanted. Their torch was held aloft by their statue of the Goddess of Liberty, the one that they built. That torch was torn down, and the people were attacked and killed or jailed by the “People’s” army in Tiananmen square in 1989.

Young adults in China today know nothing of this, because the Chinese government propaganda machine has vilified the hundred thousand patriots who demonstrated for freedom that day, and dismissed them as a few anti-social hooligans.

This process is, of course, taking place today in China, only it is currently directed against the Tibetan demonstrators and the Dalai Lama. If the Tiananmen Square demonstrators had been successful in reforming the Chinese government,

I doubt if there would have been the demonstrations in Tibet, because the people of Tibet would probably have had far fewer grievances. You can see a photo of the “Goddess of Liberty” and read about the Tiananmen Square massacre on Wikipedia- just Google: Wikipedia Tiananmen Square Massacre

Zhao Ziyang’s and Hu Yaobang’s memories live, and all the lying cadres in the world cannot stamp them out!

Now the Chinese government asks us to believe that the pacifistic Buddhist monks of Tibet are preparing to become suicide bombers. I see that Hu Jintao has been swotting up on Mein Kampf by Adolph Hitler, with particular attention to “The Big Lie.” Read all about it by Googling: Wikipedia the big lie .

April 3, 2008 @ 3:49 am | Comment

Actually, all mainland chinese I talked would comment Taiwan’s election as “amusing”.

We watch it when there is no good TV program let us laugh.

April 3, 2008 @ 9:08 am | Comment

I’ve noticed that too. The Da Lu Ren I’ve talked to about it all describe ROC politics as a ‘joke’, but they just never really explain why…

April 3, 2008 @ 10:16 am | Comment

Well, Lime. Here you go (you can find the same type of amusement in every round of Taiwan elections):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZ-hNVfTZqw

They should really pay-per-view these to supplement the losing revenue due to a lackluster stock market in the last 8 years (compared to say Hong Kong), and exodus of productive members of the society (businesspeople, engineers, managers, etc.) to mainland China.

I will just quote James Madison, the Father of US Constitution:

“Democracies have ever been spectacles of turbulence and contention; have ever been found incompatible with personal security or the rights of property; and have in general been as short in their lives, as they have been violent in their deaths. Theoretic politicians, who have patronized this species of Government, have erroneously supposed that by reducing mankind to a perfect equality in their political rights, they would, at the same time, be perfectly equalized and assimilated in their possessions, their opinions and their passions.”

April 3, 2008 @ 11:19 am | Comment

@JXie:

The US Founding Fathers knew that their creation would become corrupt and that is why they made our system so complex and self conflicting…as well as giving the “ruled” the right to own guns, big guns, that shoot lots of bullets.

April 3, 2008 @ 11:32 am | Comment

I believe what Nanhe is referring to, quoting Madison again:

“A Government like ours has so many safety-valves, giving vent to overheated passions, that it carries within itself a relief against the infirmities from which the best of human Institutions cannot be exempt.”

Or as Nanhe followed up in his own inimitable way, there is Federalist 46 in which Madison writes:

“The advantage of being armed, which the Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation, the existence of subordinate governments, to which the people are attached, and by which the militia officers are appointed, forms a barrier against the enterprises of ambition, more insurmountable than any which a simple government of any form can admit of. Notwithstanding the military establishments in the several kingdoms of Europe, which are carried as far as the public resources will bear, the governments are afraid to trust the people with arms.”

Personally, I’m much enamored of this Madisonian nugget, especially in light of recent debates over the media:

“The right of freely examining public characters and measures, and of free communication among the people thereon…has ever been justly deemed the only effectual guardian of every other right.”

Finally, I might suggest that this fixation on the humor value of Taiwanese democracy obscures more than it illuminates, and leaves me to wonder if people are commenting without having completely read Huang’s article.

April 3, 2008 @ 11:55 am | Comment

This has led in turn to another sacred cow meme, namely that the Tiananmen Square Massacre was a shame, but in the end it was the right thing to do and China is better off for it, although our hearts go out to the families of those who died (code for “were murdered”)

Oh come on, again making twisted and ridiculous statements. How can you say this? Hearts go out to the families of those who died? Come on, if you go in front of a tank while you know the city was under martial law, you must be clinically retarded ( as a medical term, not as a insulting term). I have no respect those people, and certainly my hearts do not go out to their families at all. Please don’t misrepresent people.

April 3, 2008 @ 12:01 pm | Comment

The royal rumbles in the Legislative Yuan are pretty funny in and of themselves, but they don’t discredit the system. If anything, I would think they make the democracy that much more impressive, when one considers that those people, despite being so passionate about their politics, are able to continue to work together in a functional government. If everyone smiled and nodded and voted together, to me anyways, it would be more indicative of a farce.

Anybody know what the name of the band was that did the music for law-makers battling montage?

April 3, 2008 @ 12:48 pm | Comment

Before celebrating the triumph of the Taiwanese democracy too much let’s not forget the country is practically ran into the ground on multitude of issues. Can China afford to be an India at this time?

April 3, 2008 @ 1:01 pm | Comment

…it would be a lot easier for them to find a proxy in any one of the parties to influence China on its foreign and interior, economic and political policies. That’s the potential chaos we should really worry about.

Why should it be easier? No Western democratic country has ever been subverted in the way Bing is describing, despite the USSR with its vast resources attempting to do so. Does he believe that a Chinese democracy would be inherently weaker in this respect?

April 3, 2008 @ 1:51 pm | Comment

“let’s not forget the country is practically ran into the ground on multitude of issues. ”

Falen, Taiwan is doing quite well, economically (except that salaries have not risen) as well as politically at this one moment in time (despite the potential total control by one political party). How has Taiwan been practically run into the ground? I know several Taiwanese quite well and have lived there. While some do not care much for the past administration, none feel the country is “run into the ground”, except for the most radical blues. And many of them are cautiously optimistic about what the new adminstration can bring them, so quite pleased with their democratic system that has allowed them to make an effective decision.

Your comment sounds a lot like when a Lanzhou taxi driver once told me that life in Taiwan must be so difficult. In other words, it is lacking in substance and simply incorrect for those who are in the know.

April 3, 2008 @ 2:14 pm | Comment

When talking about democracy wth my Chinese friends, I always say something along the lines of “Your government looks down at you” 中国政府瞧不起中国人。Here I am, with the privilidge to have as many kids as I want, to pay lower taxes, to drive a car having never taken a driving test, to attend worship services that they cannot, etc. And then I ask them if this is fair. Usually just awkward silence follows (that, or frightengly weird things like “but we Chinese cannot handle that”).

April 3, 2008 @ 2:27 pm | Comment

@Chip
“Here I am, with the privilidge to have as many kids”

And not be forcibly taken into abortion if I have one too many… even in the last month of pregnancy…

April 3, 2008 @ 3:11 pm | Comment

@Hong Xing

Oh come on, again making twisted and ridiculous statements. How can you say this? Hearts go out to the families of those who died? Come on, if you go in front of a tank while you know the city was under martial law, you must be clinically retarded ( as a medical term, not as a insulting term). I have no respect those people, and certainly my hearts do not go out to their families at all. Please don’t misrepresent people.

Really? wow Hong Xing, you know what, using your presumptions above, we have alot of clinically retarded people in this world.

First, Rosa Parks, the black seamstress, must be “clinically retarded” for not giving up her seat on the public bus to the whites in 1955. She knew that there was a city ordinance that the bus driver had the authority to order black people to give up their seats for the whites and failing to do so would get her arrested. So going by your argument, Rosa Parks must be “clinically retarded” for knowingly defying a state ordinance.

Another “clinically retarded” person have to be Gandhi. Knowing very well that the colonial authorities would charge him for sedition for his non-cooperation movement and civil disobedience, he chose to defy colonial authorities knowing very well that he would be arrested.

And the black people who died in South Africa during the Soweto uprising and Sharpeville massacre must also be “clinically retarded” for being on the streets protesting against the white supremacist regime since the regime had declared emergency laws ordering them off the streets. I guess you would applaud the white regime by the logic you applied to the Tiananmen incident. Well, you can’t blame the white security forces for shooting at the protesting crowd since they had already declared emergency laws right?

When one even lack a basic differentiation of right and wrong, it’s indeed tragic. With more people like you around, the Chinese nation is indeed in jeopardy.

April 3, 2008 @ 8:03 pm | Comment

@Bing

After democracy, then what?

Please don’t throw up such ludicrous arguments. You have a malicious intent, that is to equate those Chinese democrats to foreign stooges. Come on, that’s an old Maoist tactic, please be more creative, i am sure you are smarter than that.

April 3, 2008 @ 8:19 pm | Comment

You forgot the end of the James Madison quotation: “I just wish that we had a mighty, glorious, and correct political party like the Chinese Communist Party that could guide our nation to wealth and national strength in a stable manner! Development is the only human right.”

April 3, 2008 @ 11:16 pm | Comment

@Bing

And by the way, Bing, in Chinese history, the foreign powers was able to find proxies to to influence China on its foreign and interior, economic and political policies. Who were these “proxies”? No reward for guessing the right answer: Yuan Shi-kai and Dowager Tzu Hsi. And they were autocrats not democrats. It was under Tzu Hsi that China became a semi-colony and it was Yuan who accepted Japan’s infamous 21 demands.

And how about the democrats? Were Dr. Sun, Song Jiaoren or Huang Xing ever the puppets of foreign powers?

Read up on your Chinese history before making wild claims that could not stand up to simple scrutiny.

April 4, 2008 @ 2:06 am | Comment

Lime, the singer’s name is —ÑŽqË, George Lin. Most of his best Cantonese songs were in the 80s.

Jeremiah, FWIW, I watch the Taiwan elections with interest. If nothing else, for investment decisions — It’s safe to say now Taiwan is a very good buy. That was just an answer to the question why many mainlanders consider it amusing.

April 4, 2008 @ 7:35 am | Comment

ah… George Lam (Lam as Lin’s Cantonese pronunciation).

April 4, 2008 @ 7:37 am | Comment

@JXie
Thanks. I’ll download it if I can find it.

April 4, 2008 @ 8:57 am | Comment

First, Rosa Parks, the black seamstress, must be “clinically retarded” for not giving up her seat on the public bus to the whites in 1955.

Well, that is not too surprising.

Another “clinically retarded” person have to be Gandhi.

Not too surprising again.

And the black people who died in South Africa during the Soweto uprising and Sharpeville massacre must also be “clinically retarded” for being on the streets protesting

Oh come on…

When one even lack a basic differentiation of right and wrong, it’s indeed tragic. With more people like you around, the Chinese nation is indeed in jeopardy.

If I have a son that is so retarded as to wander out to the street when there’s a military martial law in effect, or even to stand in front of a moving tank, then I would be very happy that the PLA destroyed him.

April 4, 2008 @ 11:29 am | Comment

@Hong Xing

First, i have to concede that i am at my wits end talking to a scum of the nation like you. Well done.

Secondly, you would not have to fret not having a job during the Cold War. The Soviets would have make you the head of those psychiatric institutions which they used to detain political dissidents.

Why not you summarily execute your own son instead? Better shoot him at point-blank rather than being reduced to minced pork under a PLA tank.

April 4, 2008 @ 1:10 pm | Comment

Hong Xing, I don’t think you really get this. Read this poem, it will help;
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Horatius

The Chinese guys in front of the tanks were not stupid, they understood that they were probably going to die, but the human race, across time and culture seems to glorify this idea of self sacrifice. Willingness to give your life for a higher cause. The Japanese Kamikazes, for example, were not somehow tricked into thinking they could bail at the last moment; they knew they were going to die, but they chose to go through with it because they thought it was the right and honourable thing to do. Maybe they were wrong, but writing them off as clinically retarded shows a grave deficit in your understanding of human psychology.

April 4, 2008 @ 1:12 pm | Comment

Willingness to give your life for a higher cause. …. it was the right and honourable thing to do.

I am glad you are a loyal followers of the teachings of Osama Bin Laden, Muqtada al-Sadr, Hamas, and most recently the Dalai Lama. I submitted this post and your name to my state’s homeland security citizens’ response dept.

Enjoy your time at Guantanamo Bay.

April 4, 2008 @ 1:46 pm | Comment

@HongXing
There is a difference between offer your life to bring life and hope for others and offer your life to bring death and horror to others

Hope you see the difference….

April 4, 2008 @ 3:27 pm | Comment

I am glad you are a loyal followers of the teachings of Osama Bin Laden, Muqtada al-Sadr, Hamas, and most recently the Dalai Lama. I submitted this post and your name to my state’s homeland security citizens’ response dept.

Enjoy your time at Guantanamo Bay.

Eh? Why is Mao missing? Jiang Qing? Li Peng? Yang Shangkun? Wang Zhen?

I think you would enjoy your time more at Qincheng Prison.

April 4, 2008 @ 3:33 pm | Comment