I have been doing my best telling people that their own government is their worst enemy.

It’s a very difficult job telling that to Chinese, both young and old, because past Chinese dissident movements were almost ALL subservient to foreign imperialism—From Sun Yet-sen to Tiananmen protesters.

Even though a proud and independent dissident movement is emerging within China, it’s very difficult to change that perception…Especially when Imperialism IS attempting to subjugate the Chinese both through internal dissidents and others. The fact that the Western population is actively supporting their imperialist government isn’t helping.

Real change can only come from within by genuine activists and revolutionaries…And they would prefer the West to back off and fuck off.

You are giving us a bad name.

April 14, 2008 @ 12:39 am | Comment

Having been partially conolized by and subject to countless unfair treatries with western powers, the Chinese government and most Chinese people today will do anything but submit to any finger-pointing by the west. In that sense, the harder western countries pressurize China, the further away from the western agenda will China go.

April 14, 2008 @ 12:59 am | Comment

It is worth pointing out that the majority of those loyal youth knows English and have access to many western media.

The loyal youth certainly have lots of complaints about Chinese system. There used to be a saying among netizen, “Don’t be too CCTV”. That means don’t be shamless (a liar).

Now, the new term is “Don’t be too CNN”.

April 14, 2008 @ 1:05 am | Comment

Now, the new term is “Don’t be too CNN”.

The people who probably first coined that phrase never said “Don’t be too CCTV”. Indeed they would see it as a compliment because they think the Chinese media is pure and only tells the truth.

richard, I have never believed the opinions of Chinese people can be changed by outside pressure. That’s why the world has to band together and just say “no” to China. If Beijing wants to do what it wants inside its own borders, fine. But build up the pressure on foreign leaders such that they’ll stop helping China with its international propaganda, bullying Taiwan, etc.

That might not change much, but at the least China will have to do its own dirty work rather than get other governments to do it instead.

April 14, 2008 @ 1:27 am | Comment

Richard, this is a good post and raise a good point. But anyone wants to attempt to explain this phenomenon?

In the 80’s and early 90’s, the situation was completely different. Youths back than absolutely envied and loved America and the West.At night, in college dorms, people were literally masturbating about America, and envious about open, liberal, rich, and just generally great a society is. Professors, intellectuals, regular workers, all were very fond of the US. Of course CCTV still had to say things like “US Hegemony”, “US has bad human rights” ,etc ,etc”. But in people’s mind, no one really believed CCTV, and think it’s all government propaganda. That what partially propelled the 1989 incident.

Today, the same college students are intellectuals are no longer masturbating about America and the West. People are a lot more supportive of the government and “nationalistic” than 15 years ago. And paradoxically, 15 year’s ago the Chinese society was much more controlled and enclosed, while today it’s been much more liberalized. Yet after the much more liberalization, people didn’t become more pro-West, but instead became more anti-West. THis perhaps surprised many Western observers, they were probably thinking: “If in the 80’s, the Chinese people were already loving us in secret, then, with the opening of China’s market economy, its media, the rise of internet, commerials, etc, would open the eyes of the Chinese to the outside world, and surely they love us even more and see how bad their government is.”

But that did not happen.

Why? Explain.

April 14, 2008 @ 1:30 am | Comment

Why? Explain.

First of all, it is overly simplistic to say that “Chinese society” was more controlled and enclosed. Though it depends what you mean, in many ways China was more open in the latter part of the 80s. Reformist leaders like Zhao Ziyang had encouraged more open debate on change from the public. Today there is much less scope to put ideas across and the media is more obedient. It’s difficult to distrust everything your own country’s media says.

Second, China was poorer then. People didn’t want “democracy” per ce, they wanted less corruption and more accountability because they felt it was the only way to improve their lives. As the economy picked up, there was less reason to challenge the State.

If you compared the “average” student digs of the 1980s with today, you’d see a big difference. There are a lot of dingy ones left, but the majority are far nicer. And even if students don’t like them, they have the hope of a good job at the end of it.

Third, those who have become rich don’t want their new lives threatened. Foreign ideas about universal suffrage, direct elections, etc would open up the running of China to the peasants and working class. That is a threat to the middle and upper classes, so they’ll attack the source of those ideas. It’s more difficult to attack Chinese, so people will blame it on foreigners to whip up a little racism and nationalism.

April 14, 2008 @ 1:40 am | Comment

Would it be appropriate to say that the Western Media is 70% right, 30% wrong?

April 14, 2008 @ 1:54 am | Comment

Hahha, yes, that’s the main argument of many. (Yes, the Western media is not perfect and makes mistakes, but we are mostly correct.)

They should ask Deng Xiaoping for permission before using that line.

April 14, 2008 @ 1:58 am | Comment

Internet is the opiate of the masses.

April 14, 2008 @ 2:11 am | Comment

I seriously doubt that these nationalist youth represent anything but themselves and I wonder how seriously we should take their supposed “nationalism”. Many of them live in the West and enjoy the freedoms that entail. They have already made their choice and those actions speak louder than words.

For every enraged fenqing, there is a Chinese who thinks “WTF?” when he hears CCTV condemn DL. But moderate Chinese voices are drowned or intimidated into silence.

Today, the same college students are intellectuals are no longer masturbating about America and the West.

Did they ever?

In that sense, the harder western countries pressurize China, the further away from the western agenda will China go.

That is a myth. Again, actions speak louder than words. As a matter of fact, people in China do pay attention to foreign criticism and outside pressure does achieve results. Many a dissident wouldn’t be around anymore if it weren’t for outside pressure.

April 14, 2008 @ 2:17 am | Comment

I think this superficial hatred of the West has more to do with China’s identity crisis than anything else. Today it is very difficult to explain exactly what China and Chinese culture stand for except Chinese food and the Chinese language.

Very little of China’s traditional culture has any real connection to the lives of most Chinese. It today’s China, you would be hard-pressed to find any institution that is older than a couple of decades and most Chinese cities look almost identical. If you visit a Chinese home and it is difficult to identify a single object that is older than 1979. You will find more old buildings or old institutions in an average mid-Western town than in China. And this is a country that claims to have over 5000 years of history. And it is not Westerners who have presided over this obliteration of traditional China, it is the Chinese government. And this bothers a lot of Chinese, although they would not say it aloud.

Under these circumstances, the simplest way to celebrate “Chineseness” is to direct these frustrations outwards, into hatred. I don’t know of any other Internet sub-culture that is so obsessed with hate and the persecution of non-conformists as Chinese cyberspace. But I don’t think that we can say what this actually represent, because there are many Chinese – with real jobs, real relationships and real lives – that refuse to participate in these cyber mobs that are ready to turn on anyone. At the end of the day, those who are to loose from this hate culture are the Chinese themselves, not the rest of us.

April 14, 2008 @ 2:31 am | Comment

“I think this superficial hatred of the West has more to do with China’s identity crisis than anything else.”

No, it has to do with the sinophobic, anti-communist imperialist governments and their media.

Fidel Castro’s got it right:
http://www.revleft.com/vb/castro-china-t75364/
index.html

“Very little of China’s traditional culture has any real connection to the lives of most Chinese.”

And thank every god and his mother for that!

April 14, 2008 @ 2:42 am | Comment

No, it has to do with the sinophobic, anti-communist imperialist governments and their media.

You really don’t know how prejudiced and blinkered you sound, do you?

And thank every god and his mother for that!

Indeed. Nothing worse than the philosophy of people like Confucius!

A superior man is modest in his speech, but exceeds in his actions.

In a country well governed, poverty is something to be ashamed of.
In a country badly governed, wealth is something to be ashamed of.

Hold faithfulness and sincerity as first principles.

The object of the superior man is truth.

Interesting that you think he has nothing to teach Chinese people (or indeed anyone else) today.

April 14, 2008 @ 2:56 am | Comment

No, it has to do with the sinophobic, anti-communist imperialist governments and their media.

If that was the case, cyber patriots would be persecuting foreigners, not their compatriots who have fallen out of line. The people who stand to lose from this virulent nationalism are the Chinese themselves, not anyone else.

April 14, 2008 @ 2:59 am | Comment

@ Raj
The people who probably first coined that phrase never said “Don’t be too CCTV”. Indeed they would see it as a compliment because they think the Chinese media is pure and only tells the truth.

I actually said the f word when I read your above comment. Let me tell you a little story.

When I was about 5 and I was watching CCTV news, I saw three consecutive news all about anti-US. I said to my mom, “All the countries are against US!”. My mom told me:” Even though those are true, it doesn’t mean the rest of the world is also doing the same thing. CCTV just told you part of the story. And most of the time, CCTV news is not true.”

And that was back in the early 90s.

Let me tell you this, we know CCTV is CRAP from day 1. Young people in China seldom watch CCTV news. It’s a shame when someone talk to his friends about a piece of news from CCTV. “Do you even watch CCTV?” That’s the response you’ll get.

We are not proud of it. But we live with it. And we know it.

What’s sad about you guys, is you believe in your ‘free talk’ world and you don’t doubt it. Or in other words, you are not used to think twice when you watch something on CNN. CNN (or whatever it is) is something you believe is pure and telling the truth.

Again, let me tell you something that my mom told me about 20 years ago, “even though what you see is true, it may only be part of the truth. It can be misleading.”

“in many ways China was more open in the latter part of the 80s.”

I am not going to argue with you about this. But I want to tell you that there has been lots of parades going on recently in the US by oversea Chinese students, in SF, NYC, DC, and other cities and towns. I am not sure if China is more open or not than 80’s, but I am sure oversea students (myself, is one of them) are more open than those still in China. But why do we still want to go to the street and fight for our government?

No, we are not. We are not defending anything. We are aware all the problems we have. We are aware we have issues in Tibet, Taiwan, human rights, pollution and so on. But we just want you to think twice when you starting hating and blaming. We want to hear something that you won’t learn when you are sitting in your comfortable chair, reading newspaper, watching morning news while holding coffee in your hand.

We know CCTV is trying to brain-wash us, and we fight back. So don’t let CNN (whatever you believe in) wash your brain.

April 14, 2008 @ 3:00 am | Comment

“You really don’t know how prejudiced and blinkered you sound, do you?”

So what if I’m “prejudiced” against imperialist governments and their media? Don’t you also use the same rhetoric against their Chinese counterparts?

“Indeed. Nothing worse than the philosophy of people like Confucius!”

There were many brilliant philosophers in ancient China…But unfortunately their voices were drowned out by the *barbaricism* that is the “teachings” of Confucius and Mencius and all their belly-flopping worshipers.

I lived in a Confucianist family-clan until the age 11…And if Confucianist values were fully implemented I’d have been beaten to death for my disobedience. So in that sense, I’m very grateful to “Western culture” (Marxism, in particular).

“A superior man is modest in his speech, but exceeds in his actions.”

Funny that came from a man whose sole achievement was wondering around China humiliated.

April 14, 2008 @ 3:10 am | Comment

@Ming

I agree with a lot of what you said.

CNN (or whatever it is) is something you believe is pure and telling the truth.

Actually, if you paid attention, you would find that journalists are among the least respected professionals in the West. And media bias – to the right or the left – is a constant topic of debate in the West. So welcome to the club. But. Don’t you think we are doing China a huge disservice by directing our attention to bias in Western media?

April 14, 2008 @ 3:11 am | Comment

So what if I’m “prejudiced” against imperialist governments and their media?

You don’t even understand, do you?

You’re prejudiced because you throw terms like “imperialist” and “sinophobic” around to undermine China’s critics. The UK, for example, is not imperialist (any more) and is not Sinophobic. Indeed Chinese people are generally well respected.

By branding critics of China in the same way shows what a blinkered fool you are.

April 14, 2008 @ 3:30 am | Comment

Here is a good article…

http://tinyurl.com/48rh53

Carrying a Torch
for China
Skip the opening ceremonies
of the Beijing Olympics, Mr. President

April 14, 2008 @ 4:03 am | Comment

@Amban

I actually can’t remember the last time I read a single piece of news that is pro-China on CNN/NYTimes/ect. But I do understand it. That’s just how it works here. All the news about US are also about bombs, murders, depression and so on. It’s just their job to be critical.

That said, fenqing are indeed over-reacted. However, it is still necessary to hear some of our voice. Here is why.

If you are reading this blog, you probably have enough knowledge base to know what is going on in China. However, for the rest of the Americans , they don’t. They read the news and found the following topics:

1. China invaded Tibet 50 years ago and Tibetans are living in hell.
2. Taiwan is a democratic, independent country but China claims it as part of its territory.
3. Products made in China are crap.
4. Japan is a beautiful country but Chinese all hate it.
5. China is polluted badly and it is choking on growth.
6. Don’t get me started with human rights in China.
7…

I can have this list going on and on. Well, if I were a typical American-born citizen, I don’t have to be too smart to draw a simple conclusion that Chinese government is pure evil. No wonder there are so many Chinese in the US.

Well, it probably is. But politics is not a simple yes-or-no, right-or-wrong question. There is a good side of every story.

I just hope when you see Chinese students parade at the end of this month in NYC and DC, you might wonder, those people have been in this ideal world for a while, why would they still miss their lives in hell?

April 14, 2008 @ 4:10 am | Comment

@Ming

You made couple of valid points.

I just hope when you see Chinese students parade at the end of this month in NYC and DC, you might wonder, those people have been in this ideal world for a while, why would they still miss their lives in hell?

No, that’s not what I’m thinking. I just wonder when it would be possible for a bunch of foreign students to take to the streets in Beijing and Shanghai to tout their nationalism or supposedly hurt feelings.

April 14, 2008 @ 4:30 am | Comment

Well, in 1980s people still were still recovering from the disastrous Cultural Revolution. People like to jump from one extreme side to the another extreme side, so there is no wound that people back then have good feeling towards the west. Besides that, the west was still the friend back then. The good feeling continue toward early 1990s. Deep inside, most Chinese are very patriotic; the difference is which road to choose to build a better China. As I remember that the first incidence make me very angry toward the west is the Yinhe incident in 1993, and followed by incidences happened in 1999 and 2001. Those incidents awake the deep suspicious feeling towards the west, even my father, who was very liberal and educated in the US before CCP even took power in China became very angry towards the west. Though we still disagreed on a lot of domestic political issues, we began to agree on the point that the west cannot be trust, and that is simply because we have different national interests.

April 14, 2008 @ 4:45 am | Comment

I have been doing my best telling people that their own government is their worst enemy.

I wouldn’t say the worst. They’re among the worst.

April 14, 2008 @ 4:59 am | Comment

Indeed they would see it as a compliment because they think the Chinese media is pure and only tells the truth.

Yep, you know best. All Chinese people are stupid and brainwashed, that’s why every single person in the Chinese diaspora that I know hates the CCP with a passion. You don’t have to love the CCP to recognize the other threats to China.

That’s why the world has to band together

And sing kumbaya? Good one!

Foreign ideas about universal suffrage, direct elections, etc would open up the running of China to the peasants and working class.

Like the Communist revolution?

I think this superficial hatred of the West has more to do with China’s identity crisis than anything else. Today it is very difficult to explain exactly what China and Chinese culture stand for except Chinese food and the Chinese language.

Very little of China’s traditional culture has any real connection to the lives of most Chinese.

We have a winner! Take lessons from Japan and Central Asia.. when people want a resurgence of their old traditions, they will start to reject the foreign cultures that have the most influence in their day-to-day lives.

That is, even if they aren’t as degenerate and shallow as Western culture.

April 14, 2008 @ 5:10 am | Comment

ferin, your lies fool no one.

All Chinese people are stupid and brainwashed

How do you get that from the following?

The people who probably first coined that phrase never said “Don’t be too CCTV”.

Your’re saying that all Chinese people coined the phrase at the same time? What are they – the Borg?

Like the Communist revolution?

No, because the “Communist” revolution replaced one elite with another.

April 14, 2008 @ 6:06 am | Comment

.. I guess you think immediately giving power to 800 million impoverished peasants won’t do the same thing.

Btw, lets see how consistent some posters are:

http://www.godlikeproductions.com/forum1/message506108/pg1

Does the U.S owe the Lakota 20 trillion dollars or are they a bunch of hypocrites?

April 14, 2008 @ 6:15 am | Comment

rofl I didn’t notice the site was a conspiracy nut forum, but it has both of the relevant articles (taken from another site) posted next to eachother for reference.

April 14, 2008 @ 6:23 am | Comment

Indeed, people claim that they used to say “don’t be too CCTV,” but I never came across any such saying, either in daily discussions or on online forums. However, in recent weeks, “don’t be too CNN” is everywhere.
The contrast is clear, and I sincerely doubt the myth of this saying’s supposed origins in CCTV.

April 14, 2008 @ 6:35 am | Comment

“Don’t be too CCTV” has been a famous online phrase in China for at least 1 year now.

Here’s Google China’s search results if you type in
“不要太CCTV”

http://tinyurl.com/4pt8s2

Get your facts straight first.

April 14, 2008 @ 6:59 am | Comment

“So in that sense, I’m very grateful to “Western culture” (Marxism, in particular).”

Thank god for Marxism, eh? What a bang up job it’s done of making the world a better place. If it wasn’t for those damn meddling reactionary counter-revolutionaries!

April 14, 2008 @ 8:03 am | Comment

“Thank god for Marxism, eh?”

I prefer to thank Marx for Marxism.

And the influence of his ideas on the world isn’t even beginning to show.

April 14, 2008 @ 8:05 am | Comment

“Would it be appropriate to say that the Western Media is 70% right, 30% wrong?”

Never, it is always 50-50. 50% wrong one way, and 50% wrong the other, so that it is balanced.

It is through freedom of expression and information that we attain balanced reporting in the media – everyone can be as crazy as he/she wants. We get the real news from the totality, not one piece from one paper.

No one has the right idea either, and no one knows who is the better candidate. It is just collectively, with all our personal biasedness, we pick the one to government us, and throw him/her out if he/she is no good, the next time.

April 14, 2008 @ 8:23 am | Comment

—Here is my comments to Matt Forney:

Your first sentence explains what you really hope to see. It is not what Chinese people, young or old, want for their lives or their political rights that you are caring about. You only feel disappointed because China, rather than “in the waning days” like the Soviet Union used to be in, is rising as the only power that could challenge the United States.

You think you know about China, since you lived in Beijing for so many years. But let me tell you several things:

First of all, in our high school textbook, there is a whole chapter talking about the Cultural revolution. Our teachers told us even more on that period since most of them suffered a lot during the Cultural Revolution. True, we learned a lot about how China was invaded, by the British, by the Japanese, and by the Americans(who also sold opium to Chinese people.) But why should not we about such things? ONLY THE INVADERS WANT THE INVADED PEOPLE TO FORGET THIS KIND OF HISTORY AS SOON AS POSSIBLE.

Second of all, we are shamed of what the government does sometimes. As well-educated people who could get information from all sources, I guarantee you that “China’s loyal youth” are more capable of introspection and critical thinking than American youth. To return to what the Chinese government did wrong. It should not sell weapons to Sudan. But why did it do that? Because America secured the oil access in the Middle East for itself (by the way, are you ashamed of what your government did there?) Chinese government want the oil in Africa. Weapons themselves are not evil–it all depends on how one use them. Although the Chinese government obviously did not support the genocide in Sudan, I think it should have known that those weapons will be used for that matter. But please don’t Americans pretend to care about the people in Durfur. American people may care about them, but not your government and “elites” like you. You just use that to attack China. If you don’t agree with me, then please tell me why you did not do anything with the genocide in Rwanda when the same thing happened?
All in all, you don’t want to see that a rising China and its people to share the natural resources that almost exclusively belong to the United States and West Europe. Just say it, then. No shame on you. But don’t be so hypercritical.

There are many things which, according to your standard, we should be ashamed of our government. Unfortunately, your standard is a double standard. The human rights advocates say that “one child policy” is evil. But do you realize that if there is no such a policy, the current Chinese population will be 3-4 billion, and will consume much more energy than it does now?

As to the issue of Tibet, go learn Chinese history first. Tibet was a part of China since the Ming dynasty in 1368 (actually, since Yuan dynasty, but it was a Mongal dynasty,so for the purpose of argument, we will just say Ming). If you don’t believe in any sources of Chinese history, go read a autobiography of a Tibetan: “The Struggle for Modern Tibet: The Autobiography of Tashi Tsering”. It tells you what common Tibetan people really want, not what the Tibetan aristocracy wants.

If you still lack the ability to reflect on your words and your thoughts, let me tell you this: You are right, sir. We are China’s loyal youth. Thanks to what Western countries and Western media did to China this time, we are growing more loyal to China and Chinese government. And to disappoint you a little more, China is no Soviet Union. You will never see its waning days.

April 14, 2008 @ 8:34 am | Comment

“It is through freedom of expression and information that we attain balanced reporting in the media – everyone can be as crazy as he/she wants. We get the real news from the totality, not one piece from one paper.”

You’d be right if you actually have the media as composed of various agencies of different perspectives.

But in the US, there are only two paradigms: the liberal and the conservative—Most are somewhere in between and have almost the exact same message.

What about the feminist perspective? Or the radical working-class perspective? Or the students & youths’ perspective? Or that of the “illegal” immigrants?

But these perspectives are practically banned from expression. Because the corporate media is a pro-fit-seeking business and in order to “get into the field”, you need money. Lots and lots of money.

So far from being “free” it is quite expensive to get your voice heard, something that the oppressed people all over the world cannot afford.

April 14, 2008 @ 8:36 am | Comment

@Amban: “Don’t you think we are doing China a huge disservice by directing our attention to bias in Western media?”

You should not ignore it either, because it is a very important factor. ‘Dont be too CNN’, this says what this issue is about. I feel you are missing that, and that you have some prejudice and bias to go for a certain direction that is not relevant.

April 14, 2008 @ 8:39 am | Comment

Opifer , Thanx for the book recommendation. I have it in my university library and I’m gonna pick it up tomorrow. I only read its preview.

Nice to hear from an ordinary Tibetan for a change. I’m getting sick of the former Lamas’ and aristocrats’ so-called perspective.

April 14, 2008 @ 8:53 am | Comment

@Opifer

I guarantee you that “China’s loyal youth” are more capable of introspection and critical thinking than American youth.

Evidence, please?

As to the issue of Tibet, go learn Chinese history first. Tibet was a part of China since the Ming dynasty in 1368

Is this evidence of critical thinking? Or just parroting of official PRC policy? Where do you find support for the claim that the Ming controlled Tibet?

April 14, 2008 @ 8:55 am | Comment

@zyzyx

You should not ignore it either, because it is a very important factor. ‘Dont be too CNN’, this says what this issue is about. I feel you are missing that, and that you have some prejudice and bias to go for a certain direction that is not relevant.

Did I suggest we ignore Western media bias?

April 14, 2008 @ 8:58 am | Comment

I, for one, think the NYT have paid MATTHEW FORNEY too much to stay in Beijing all these year. He is obviously not very observant. (I am not sure if the NYT hired him in spite of this or because of this, though).
“Young urban Chinese study hard and that�s pretty much it. Volunteer work, sports, church groups, debate teams, musical skills and other extracurricular activities don�t factor into college admission, so few participate. And the government�s control of society means there aren�t many non-state-run groups to join anyway. Even the most basic American introduction to real life � the summer job � rarely exists for urban students in China.”
Hah?!
“extracurricular activities” have always been part of considerations as part of college admission process (obviously, not the church group thing) for decades. It is true they are not as big a part as in the US systems. But since when has the US education systems become the “golden standards” (let’s not go there). If they had been as big a part as in the US, I am sure the government would be accused of manipulating the systems in favor of cronies and the “connected”, since it’s hard to measure all kinds of extracurricular activities in an objective way.
Summer jobs (again, another “American” standard)? they do exist, and not that rarely at all. This is not even news. They’ve existed for more than 2 decades, but again, they might not be the same as the American ones — what a shame. Thanks to the “learnings” the Chinese Universities have don’t from their American counterparts, now there’s a thing called tuition, very high one for some families. Sure, there are a lot of spoiled brats who don’t have to worry about that, but so are there a lot in the US.
I don’t know where Mr. FORNEY have been living while he tells his bosses that he’s in Beijing. If he indeeds lives there, he needs to get out often.
Well, here’s my take-away from the article:
WHAT A CONDESCENDING PIECE OF CRAP!

April 14, 2008 @ 11:24 am | Comment

@Jinhan
I always find listening to post Soviet Union Marxists fascinating, but you’re an exceptional case. I’ve never talked to a Marxist from the PRC before. Considering the rise and fall of the Soviet Union and Mao’s slightly different variation of the philosophy and the subsequent little social experiments, why do you say the influence of his ideas hasn’t even begun to show yet?

“The fact that the Western population is actively supporting their imperialist government isn’t helping.”

Do you think we shouldn’t support our ‘imperialist’ governments? Do you think there is any government worth supporting?

April 14, 2008 @ 11:26 am | Comment

I remain quite confused about this new Chinese nationalism and its manifestations. The new Beijing- brought to you by Foster, Hertzog, Koolhaas and your friendly engineers at Arup. Maybe they should have called it “The European Architect’s Olympics”.

The “West” bashing that has been fueled by the torch incidents is as ridiculous and hypocritical as its counterpart in mindless China bashing. It’s like “We aren’t going to take it anymore, you damn West- well, except for your engineers, education, money, resources, architects, ideas and designs”. This matches the ridiculous stance on the other end, “China you are such a bad actor, free Tibet! Oh but in the meantime, please keep filling our shelves with cheap goods and let us use your land as an environmental dumping ground.”

The self-righteousness on both sides is comical when you consider we are all part of the same transnational economic beast. Nothing quite like a Hydra where the heads are clamoring to chop each other off. Ridiculous.

April 14, 2008 @ 12:43 pm | Comment

I agree. The nationalists should instead think of the ways in which they can divorce themselves from foreign influence outside of the absolutely necessary.

April 14, 2008 @ 1:17 pm | Comment

“Considering the rise and fall of the Soviet Union and Mao’s slightly different variation of the philosophy and the subsequent little social experiments, why do you say the influence of his ideas hasn’t even begun to show yet?”

Because Leninism does not resemble Marxism as much as Marx would have liked.

A true Marxist movement has yet to come, as Marxism is the only scientific, developing paradigm that opposes and critiques Capitalism in its totality.

“Do you think we shouldn’t support our ‘imperialist’ governments?”

Not under any circumstance, no.

“Do you think there is any government worth supporting?”

Marxism is fundamentally against the state apparatus–But sometimes one could help but agree with it on *certain issues*.

For example, I support the Cuban and the Venezuelan government in their struggle against economic and political hegemony. I also support the soon-to-be Nepalese government in the struggle to modernize Nepal and defeat superstition and feudalism.

I DO NOT support the Cuban government in its attempt to “cozy up” with the Vatican officials; so on and so forth.

April 14, 2008 @ 1:28 pm | Comment

@Jinhan
Why shouldn’t I support my ‘imperialist’ government (the Canadian one)? I voted them in, after all.

April 14, 2008 @ 1:53 pm | Comment

Brendan O’Neil’s piece on prejudice is worth a reading.

http://www.brendanoneill.net/

We should introduce those comments to Chinese so that they know Western people still have some fair-minded people.

April 14, 2008 @ 3:00 pm | Comment

“Why shouldn’t I support my ‘imperialist’ government (the Canadian one)? I voted them in, after all.”

Theoretically, you shouldn’t.

Because by voting, you automatically give the state apparatus legitimacy while forfeiting your rights for direct action. The politicians then hide behind the legitimacy you lend him and screw you over. The process of voting itself is basically a *Ritual of Submission* to the authorities.

Back during the last election, we were protesting at a local poll station and our banner says “don’t vote. You are only encouraging those assholes.”

April 14, 2008 @ 3:20 pm | Comment

Boiling down fenqing nationalism to being brainwashed in schools really misses the point. There’s a lot more going on than simple top-down control. Forney gives the government too much credit, and young Chinese nationalists — many of whom can speak English and have studied abroad — too little.

April 14, 2008 @ 7:53 pm | Comment

Boiling down fenqing nationalism to being brainwashed in schools really misses the point.

Most of these fenqing repeat the official PRC version of Tibetan and Chinese histiory almost verbatim. If that is not indoctrination, what is?

April 14, 2008 @ 10:00 pm | Comment

and most people here parrot the official Richard Gere/7 Years in Tibet version of Tibetan history. I guess people just cling to fanciful ideas.

April 15, 2008 @ 12:24 am | Comment

“Most of these fenqing repeat the official PRC version of Tibetan and Chinese histiory almost verbatim. If that is not indoctrination, what is?”

Most people that went to protest against Western media were not Fenqings. Indeed many were apolitical before, or well over the age of 30. Some were even elderly.

To blame the surge of Nationalism on the act of a few Fenqings is missing the point.

April 15, 2008 @ 12:27 am | Comment

but all Chinese people have that “gullible gene”.

April 15, 2008 @ 12:45 am | Comment

It is just part of the growing up process.

From everything is black in China and everything is white and beautiful in the West, to everything is gray; Maybe chinese government isn’t as bad as we thought it is, maybe the western media isn’t as good as they claim to be.

Change can only come from within, any outside pressure is very counter-productive. Outside pressure will only make ppl more united and less likely to make changes.

April 15, 2008 @ 2:23 am | Comment

@Opifer

“As well-educated people who could get information from all sources, I guarantee you that “China’s loyal youth” are more capable of introspection and critical thinking than American youth.”

I totally agree. Ferin is the best prove that American youngsters are not at all capable of introspection or critical thinking.

April 15, 2008 @ 2:47 am | Comment

Matthew Forney is a perfect example on why westerners just don’t get China. He has lived in BJ for couple years, yet he has no idea how chinese ppl think.

If someone happens to agree with the government on certain issue, then he/she must be brainwashed one way or the other.
oh…really? how so? I have be “pro-tibet” to prove I am not brainwashed?

Not sure about the American youngsters in general, but I guess we can definitely say that Matthew is not capable of critical thinking.

April 15, 2008 @ 3:26 am | Comment

Why was the Lobsang Gendun thread deleted?
Isn’t it supposed to be a ‘pro-china’ goon in disguise?

April 15, 2008 @ 3:48 am | Comment

Well, as people in China get exposed more to “Western” media like forums and stuff, I’d imagine they’d be happy to finally see what people outside of China actually think and say, instead of what CCTV feeds them. I can well imagine them going happily through some thread or another, beginning to pick up on critical thinking, reflecting on the wrongdoings of the CCP, being proud of what they have accomplished. And then in a thread full of complaints about the one-child policy and how everyone feels so sorry for the Tibetans, they’d run into a comment like “China is just pure evil and should be wiped off of the face of the Earth.” Incidentally, they’d also notice that either nobody bothered to disagree with that comment, or a few have actually bothered to agree.
Why do people wonder why more exposure to foreign media can make Chinese less friendly toward “the West,” again?
Personally, I also go by “if it’s pure stupidity, then ignore it.” But I guess sometimes what we don’t say or refute can and will give the wrong impression. For us, it’s just a normal discussion. For them, it might be a starving person gobbling up a bowl of soup only to discover bits of a fly scattered inside half way through.

April 15, 2008 @ 5:02 am | Comment

Let me see, I moved to the US when I was 15 from Taiwan. I went to American high schools. I went to American Universities. I have a Ph.D. from an American University. I have a condo fully paid in down-town Seattle. Although, I am renting right now in San Diego, I have enough cash to put a huge down payment on a million plus house. I am in my early 30s. (…too much information, but I think my ip address actually shows my name at my work).

And I think: Dalia Lama is one of the biggest hack ever. First, a theocrat is still a theocrat regardless how friendly they are. Being so American that I am, I will recommend you to all watch Bullshit! Holier than Thou Season3 Ep5 (the show by Penn and Teller). Last theocratic organization we supported blow up two buildings in NY (they USED to be very friendly to us, too). Was a former Dalia Lama’s teacher a SS officer? Did Tibet attack Chinese troops first with the help of CIA? Did CIA spend tons of money on Tibetan exiled government to train militants and black ops? They are declassified now, and it is not hard to find you know. Also, go ask Tibetan monks to let them show you their tool for ceremonies, you will realize a lot of them are from…I will let you find out.

So am I a fenqing? Am I an American (I am an American citizen)? or Am I a FOB (my younger sister like to critique on my style)?

Btw, I do understand what the reporter is talking about. I have several Chinese Ph.D.s here think China is “corruption free” and no wrong could be done by the Chinese government. They even think I only talk about bad things about China, or saying how I don’t know the “real China” (well, I may not) because I am from different societal class i.e. I had a driver in Shanghai when I was there (A communist member talks about societal division of classes LOL).

April 15, 2008 @ 6:02 am | Comment

Was a former Dalia Lama’s teacher a SS officer?

So what if that was the case? Do you have evidence he was picked out because he was a SS officer? Even if he was (highly unlikely), the Dalai Lama wouldn’t have been able to choose him as a child.

This is a matter often raised to try to discredit the Dalai Lama, but it’s a rather feeble attempt to do so.

Did Tibet attack Chinese troops first with the help of CIA?

I believe Tibet attacked Chinese troops because their home had been occupied. It’s not as if the invasion of Tibet was caused by Tibet attacking China.

April 15, 2008 @ 6:37 am | Comment

PhD in what? Any sane layman in China knows it’s like the opposite of corruption free. But they’d still prefer to clean up their own mess themselves instead of having everyone else either complaining about everything or telling them how to fix their stuff, especially when said complaints and recommendations may very well be counter productive, contradictory, and completely out of context.
You forgot to mention the DL is (at least was) very much racially and religiously prejudiced. Trying to toss out entire branch of Tibetan Buddhism because they wouldn’t bend to his will etc. He might have grown wiser or at least have become a better politician since then though.

April 15, 2008 @ 6:45 am | Comment

lol, racially prejudiced? If he has any racially objectionable views, please tell us about them, but to be honest if I was a Himalayan king and a large country next door with whom my country had had serious disagreements and conflicts with for centuries walked in in the form of hundreds of thousands of migrants, took over and started acting like they own the place without giving me a say and then running me out, I’d be a little prejudiced against them myself. Not that I blame economic migrants from moving to Tibet, but erm yes, people are bound to feel a little unhappy about being displaced on their own lands after having lived an isolated existence for centuries. No-one should really be surprised.

April 15, 2008 @ 9:07 am | Comment

So what if that was the case? Do you have evidence he was picked out because he was a SS officer? Even if he was (highly unlikely), the Dalai Lama wouldn’t have been able to choose him as a child.

I am simply pointing out what kind of ideology Dalia Lama could have been taught. As long as he is a Theocrat that’s enough for me not to support him whatsoever. When he preaches religious freedom, I am just about to throw up. Religious freedom or any different religions that are not part of the theocracies) have never existed in peace ever in human history.

I believe Tibet attacked Chinese troops because their home had been occupied. It’s not as if the invasion of Tibet was caused by Tibet attacking China.

Is it true that Chinese troops were attacked when they were sending supplies to the historic Chinese military outpost (even troops from the first republic was stationed there) far from the cities of Tibetans?

After exile, the US was giving Dalia Lama all kinds of money and supports. The US State Department had published the report and here it is:

http://tinyurl.com/4vgxev

PhD in what?

Ph.D. in Chemistry. B.S. in Biochemistry and B.A. in Economics (double diplomas). However, I still can’t write a damn in English :(.

April 15, 2008 @ 9:15 am | Comment

Because Richard deleted this post for his “whatever” reason, I post it here again.
I bet you western media intentionally avoid reporting the following story like this. Why? (it sounds juicy for me.) I guess the only answer is MEDIA DISTORTION!

The original link:
http://www.german-foreign-policy.com/en/fulltext/56145
The Olympic Torch Relay Campaign
2008/04/08
LHASA/BERLIN
(Own report) – Conference reports and the research of a Canadian journalist reveal that a German Foreign Ministry front organization is playing a decisive role in the preparations of the anti-Chinese Tibet campaign. According to this information, the campaign is being orchestrated from a Washington based headquarters. It had been assigned the task of organizing worldwide “protests” at a conference organized by the Friedrich Naumann Foundation (affiliated with the German Free Democratic Party – FDP) in May 2007. The plans were developed with the collaboration of the US State Department and the self-proclaimed Tibetan Government in Exile and call for high profile actions along the route of the Olympic Torch Relay and are supposed to reach a climax in August during the games in Beijing. The campaign began already last summer and is now profiting from the current uprising in the west of the People’s Republic of China that is receiving prominent coverage in the German media. The uprising was initiated with murderous pogrom-like attacks by Tibetan gangs on non-Tibetan members of the population, including the Muslim Chinese minority. Numerous deaths of non-Tibetans provoked a reaction of the Chinese security forces.
According to the research by a Canadian journalist, a conference organized by the Friedrich Naumann Foundation (FNSt) gave the impetus to the current anti-Chinese Tibet campaign that violently forced the interruption of the Olympian Torch Relay in Paris last Monday.[1] The conference was the fifth “International Tibet Support Groups Conference,” that was held from May 11 – 14, 2007 in Brussels. According to FNSt information this conference was supposed to do nothing other than the four preceding conferences [2] – “coordinate the work of the international Tibet groups and consolidate the links between them with the central Tibetan Government in Exile.”[3] The German foundation, which is largely state financed, began the conference preparations in March 2005, and coordinated its plans with the Dalai Lama at his headquarters in the self-proclaimed Tibetan Government in Exile in Dharamsala, India. More than 300 participants from 56 countries, 36 Tibetan associations and 145 Tibet support groups were represented at the conference.
Roadmap
After several days of consultations the conference ended with a concerted “plan of action”. The paper is entitled “Roadmap for the Tibet Movement for the Coming Years” covering four areas of interest: “political support for negotiations”, “human rights”, “environment and development” and “the 2008 Olympic games in Beijing.” The results of the conference are directed to the Tibetan people as well as “their supporters around the world.”[4] Rolf Berndt, a member of the FNSt’s executive council in Brussels, declared that the Olympic Games “are an excellent opportunity” to publicly promote the cause of the “Tibet Movement”.[5] The conference participants agreed to make the Olympics the single focus of attack for their activities for the next 15 months.[6] They hired a full-time organizer for their campaign, who has since been directing the worldwide Tibet actions from their Washington headquarters.
State Department
The decisions taken at the conference in Brussels, prepared by the Friedrich Naumann Foundation, are particularly significant not only because of the large number of participants but also because of the influential politicians who helped in their formulation. For example the self-proclaimed Tibetan Government in Exile, which enjoys much prestige among separatists, was represented by its “Prime Minister” Samdong Rinpoche. Also attending was another eminent politician from the Indian Himachal Pradesh state, bordering on the People’s Republic of China, where the town Dharamsala is located, the “seat” of the Tibetan “Government in Exile.” A brisk interchange takes place between Himachan Pradesh and the Chinese autonomous region of Tibet. Paula Dobriansky, the Undersecretary of State in the US State Department and special coordinator for Tibet questions also participated. She was a member of the National Security Council already in the Reagan Administration, continued her career in the State Department during the administration of President Bush Sr. and since 2001 was again in the US foreign ministry. Ms Drobriansky is considered to be one of the members of the neo-conservative inner circle in the Bush Administration and ranks as a hard-liner capable of imposing policy.
Every Day
As a Canadian journalist learned through his research, the campaign headquarters in Washington, that had been decided upon at the conference in Brussels, has been able to develop rather successful activities. Already at the beginning of August 2007, exactly one year before the opening of the Olympics, a close associate organized a high profile action at the tourist filled Great Wall to the north of Beijing. She maintains close contact to the Tibetan “Government in Exile”.[7] Another close associate recently orchestrated the disturbance of the Olympic Torch Relay in Greece, seen on television around the world. The Washington headquarters is orchestrating other “protests” intended to disturb the Torch Relay. The campaign will reach its climax during the Olympic games in August. “We are determined to have non-violent direct action in the heart of Beijing, inside the Games, every day,” one activist declared.[8]
Merciless
The anti-Chinese Tibet campaign, initiated under the direction of a German Foreign Ministry front organization (Friedrich Naumann Foundation) and a high-ranking representative of the US State Department, is developing its full efficacy in the aftermath of the uprisings in West People’s Republic of China that began only a few days before the start of the Torch Relay. Whereas the German media mainly reported on brutal attacks of the Chinese security forces, eye-witness accounts provide a different picture of what happened. The British journalist, James Miles (“The Economist”), who was in Lhasa from March 12 – 19, reports of pogrom-like attacks by Tibetan gangs on non-Tibetan members of the population of the city, among them the Muslim minority. According to Miles, the shops of Tibetan merchants were marked and left unscathed while all other shops were plundered, destroyed or set afire.[9] In one building alone five textile saleswomen were burned to death. Besides Miles, western tourists also described the attacks on non-Tibetans. One Canadian saw how a group of Tibetans beat a Chinese motorcyclist and proceeded to “mercilessly” stone him. “Eventually they got him on the ground, they were hitting him on the head with stones until he lost consciousness. I believe that young man was killed,” reported the tourist.[10]
Manipulations
Whereas Miles was describing the reluctant reactions of the Chinese security forces in an interview broadcast over CNN, the German media is using the uprisings as a backdrop to represent brutal Chinese repression. Facts obviously play a subordinate role. In the meantime, television channels and daily journals have had to admit manipulations of pictures. Film sequences with Nepalese policemen beating demonstrators were sold as documentation of alleged Chinese police attacks.[11] The security forces’ saving a boy from an attacking Tibetan mob was coarsely labeled a violent arrest. Even Miles’ report was editorially presented in a context to focus on Chinese repression. For the purpose of comparison, german-foreign-policy.com documents excerpts of a CNN interview with the British journalist as well as the corresponding passage from a renowned German daily.[12] (Click here.)
Anticipation
The pogrom-like mob-violence not only created the necessary media profile for the current Tibet campaign, initiated with the help of the Friedrich Naumann Foundation, it also permits an insight into the character of Tibetan separatism. The “prime minister” of the Tibetan “Exile Government,” who had participated in the formulation of the plan of action at the May 2007 Tibet Conference in Brussels, had already at the end of the 1990s, expounded in the German media on his views of the future of non-Tibetans, who had immigrated to Tibet over the past 50 years. In the case of a successful secession, they will have to “return to China, or if they would like to remain, be treated as foreigners.” He explained the planned measures: “they will, in any case, not be allowed to participate in the political life.”[13] The prospect of discrimination against all non-Tibetan members of the population was anticipated in mid-March by mobs in their bloody attacks on Chinese and members of the Muslim minority.
Please read also Strategies of Attrition (I), Strategies of Attrition (II), Strategies of Attrition (III), Strategies of Attrition (IV) and The Olympic Lever.
[1] Doug Saunders: How three Canadians upstaged Beijing; Globe and Mail 29.03.2008. Die Konferenz wurde von der Friedrich-Naumann-Stiftung in Zusammenarbeit mit der selbsternannten tibetischen Exilregierung und einem interfraktionellen Zusammenschluss des belgischen Parlaments durchgef�hrt.
[2] Die ersten vier “International Tibet Support Groups Conferences” fanden 1990 (Dharamsala), 1996 (Bonn), 2000 (Berlin) und 2003 (Prag) statt. Bereits die zweite Konferenz wurde von der Friedrich-Naumann-Stiftung organisiert.
[3] Gerhardt kritisiert Belgien nach Absage des Dalai-Lama-Besuchs; http://www.fnst-freiheit.org 11.05.2007
[4] Brussels Tibet conference roadmap for peace in Tibet; http://www.tibet.com 14.05.2007
[5] Valedictory Speech, International Tibet Support Groups Conference 5th, Dr. h.c. Rolf Berndt, Executive Director, Friedrich-Naumann-Stiftung fuer die Freiheit,Brussels, 14th May 2007
[6], [7}, [8] Doug Saunders: How three Canadians upstaged Beijing; Globe and Mail 29.03.2008
[9] Transcript: James Miles interview on Tibet; CNN 20.03.2008
[10] Chinese beaten mercilessly – tourists; Herald Sun 19.03.2008
[11] Fotos aus Tibet; Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung 24.03.2008
[12] see also Augenzeuge
[13] “99 Prozent der Tibeter vertrauen in Seine Heiligkeit”; Berliner Zeitung 20.10.1997. �hnlich hat sich erst k�rzlich der Dalai Lama ge�u�ert. “Alle Chinesen, die Tibetisch sprechen und die tibetische Kultur respektieren, k�nnen bleiben”, sagte er einer deutschen Zeitung – mit einer Einschr�nkung: “sofern es nicht zu viele sind”. “China mischt sich auch in Deutschlands Angelegenheiten ein”; S�ddeutsche Zeitung 21.09.2007

April 15, 2008 @ 9:21 am | Comment

If your country just got razed, wouldn’t you accept the means to resist the aggressors from whoever offered it to you? So it happened to be the US, and the Tibetans took it to fight the invaders, perfectly understandable. Shame they stopped supporting them, because of global politics. Then it was back to fighting the tanks and guns with rocks and bare hands, and probably it’s happening again right now.
Why don’t you just lay back, switch off your computer and enjoy all your money and shit, instead of coming back with non-arguments.

April 15, 2008 @ 9:38 am | Comment

Oh, blame the foreigners. We haven’t heard that before, right?

April 15, 2008 @ 9:43 am | Comment

Orwell’s Animal Farm would have predicted this.

April 15, 2008 @ 11:04 am | Comment

It was some Germans who wrote the article.

And I won’t be surprised if this is true, judging by the way Western powers have conducted themselves in the past.

China Law Blog:

Animal Farm’s a crappy novel.
http://tinyurl.com/6hmrk4

April 15, 2008 @ 11:11 am | Comment

It just amazes and saddens me how people everywhere can be so frighteningly blind to the atrocities committed by their own country or milieu (or whatever group they identify with). With the Chinese there’s nothing to say about them that nobody already knows (though actually it seems the Chinese themselves might really not know, given the frightening degree of their current blindness). With the West on the other hand, they keep belaboring China for her atrocious human rights record — not entirely without justification, be it said — without ever reflecting on the sorry fact that they themselves have been responsible for breeding any number of authoritarian governments the world over (including China now in a way) and ultimately have been the ones who forced the rest of the world into what we call the ‘modern’ era, with all its endless woes, wherebefore many of the people of the ‘premodern’ world have been leading normal, not-too-happy-but-at-the-same-time-not-too-unhappy-either lives.

As the Buddha once said, “Easy to see are the faults of others, but hard to see are one’s own.”

It also strikes me as a joke how people keep despising other people upon whom they yet depend for various important things. Those Chinese students spit at the West yet use a Western language (English), Western technology (computers, the Internet, cars, refrigerators), study at Western universities or live in Western countries, and — the biggest joke of all — need a Western invention called the Olympics to make themselves feel their country is worth something. (So much so, they even get angry when Westerners themselves oppose them in staging this oh-so-holy sports event, and make out the torch flame to be some symbol of utter holiness.) As for the West, they belabor China for her appalling human rights record, disregard for the environment etc, and yet continue to covertly accede to all that so they can continue to make money and have all those cheap made-in-China goods.

All in all, looking at the whole farcical scenario, I have to say it has become extremely difficult for me to maintain any faith in the human race anymore. The overwhelming temptation is simply to shut all this away from my sight and just watch my favorite videos. (You can be sure I WON’T be watching the Olympics.)

I’d rave about the Islamic milieu as well, BTW, except I don’t think it’s appropriate here.

April 15, 2008 @ 12:37 pm | Comment

K T Ong, hey dont loose your hope stuff, thats what the evil power wants, they can easily count you aside, use you for what they want if you loose your positiveness..

This big crazy drama will all end for the best, I do think that the truth will prevail and all those fairytale ending things… The good guys win right ? And there are some good guys, you can probly find some…Also, inside every one there is some good guy and so is the multidimensional battle that is now…

April 15, 2008 @ 2:04 pm | Comment

“I bet you western media intentionally avoid reporting the following story like this.”

And how did you come by the story? And who wrote it? Who investigated? Who published?

To help in your search for the answer to those questions, I would steer well clear of Chinese journalists.

April 15, 2008 @ 2:20 pm | Comment

From slate magazine, some food for thought

“It’s true that the Greeks put on a parallel extravaganza four years ago. Previously, it had traveled only between Athens and the Olympic city or within the Olympic country. But the Greeks are a small nation with only local enemies. China is a totalitarian empire with many enemies and should know better than to stage a deliberately provocative, easily disrupted event like this one.

But clearly the Chinese did not know better. Their confused, unprepared official reaction has wavered between outright dishonesty�”all Torch Relay cities have given strong support for the event”�and incoherent anger. Chinese bloggers apparently favor the latter. One posted a photograph of an anti-torch protester, along with the words, “Remember him � he’ll die a terrible death.”

In fact, for all of their wealth and sophistication, China’s leaders still have an extremely crude understanding of global media�you can’t force the world’s press to celebrate “harmony,” for goodness’ sake�and of global politics. Despite his earlier enthusiasm, British Prime Minister Gordon Brown has now announced he won’t attend the opening ceremonies in Beijing: The photographs of Chinese paramilitaries pouring out of his Downing Street residence have made it politically impossible.

Inevitably, “wiser heads” and old China hands will now call upon the world’s press and the world’s politicians to calm down, avoid boycotts, and leave the torch alone so the games can go on and China’s nationalist passion can cool down. Right this very minute, I’m sure someone is whispering in George Bush’s ear, urging him not to skip the Olympics, not to offend the Chinese, not to follow Brown’s example.

I hope he doesn’t listen. Americans, Brits, Russians, and indeed the citizens of many large nations are forced to think all of the time about how their actions are perceived abroad. Why shouldn’t the Chinese do so, too? They wanted to use the Olympics to trumpet their success, but there is a price to be paid for those few weeks at the center of global attention. Of course, no one believes that “Free Tibet” signs on the Golden Gate Bridge will truly liberate Tibet, and the absence of the U.S. president from some horrifically overchoreographed ceremony in Beijing won’t bring democracy to the Middle Kingdom. But it will show some of the Chinese people what some of the world thinks of their repressive system�and quite right, too.”

April 15, 2008 @ 3:37 pm | Comment

Well. I hope I will not get a lot of flak from some of our more sensitive china patriots for my last posts.
My respect to the ones that use greater sense when they post their opinions, no matter if I agree with them or not.

Just want to make some points:

Even without the current problems in TB, anyone with some sense for PR was seeing the problems with torch relay coming. No matter if you consider the perceptions of China ins some countries right or wrong, the way all of it has been organized shows a PR blindness from CH side.

The reaction, “fuck the west”, I found profoundly naive, like someone who want to be at the center stage, and when he finds some jeers he just step back full of rage.

Yes. We may have in the west misperceptions about all things that go in CH and how CH people feel. But the same thing works the other way around, and it is CH who is now at the center stage, even more as we approach the summer.

You may complain that you are being treated unfairly or patronizing. I do not think so. I can assure you you are giving no special treatment in this. No one is treating you like if you were a small child nor have to do it.

The same way you ask foreign to understand you better, open your eyes and try to understand why other think quite different from you ( and spare me any conspiracy theories, I find them quite boring)

Good luck with the games by the way, I wish they will be a success.

April 15, 2008 @ 3:59 pm | Comment

I’m increasingly convinced that this all will go very badly.

Perhaps a new imperialist war between China and the West?

April 15, 2008 @ 7:32 pm | Comment

@Jinhan
“I’m increasingly convinced that this all will go very badly.”

Naaaah! Just take it as a normal wedding party.

Everybody is nervous. The mother is nervous, the father is nervous, the bride is nervous, the groom is nervous, the attendants are nervous… everybody is nervous, and each problem looks bigger than it really is.

In the end everything will go OK. Congratulations and best wishes to the wedding pair… and…. who will be the next?
How is Shanghai doing?

April 15, 2008 @ 7:46 pm | Comment

Utah man receiving threats after case of mistaken identity
April 13th, 2008 @ 5:34pm

Sandra Yi reporting

What happened in London has disrupted the life of a Tibetan here in Utah. He’s received a lot of threats in what appears to be a case of mistaken identity.

A group of Tibetans have gathered at the Indian Walk-In Center. There is a vigil going on to pray for those suffering under Chinese rule in Tibet. One man there has been a part of protests in San Francisco, but he’s being blamed for something that happened thousands of miles away, in London.

Lobsang Gendun, a Tibetan immigrant, said, “I totally support the Olympics. I want the Olympics to be held in China so that Chinese people will be exposed to the outside world.”

But Gendun also wants the world to know about what he says is going on in his native Tibet. “There’s no freedom of religion, there’s no freedom of expression,” he said.

Last week, Gendun traveled to San Francisco for a protest during the 2008 Olympic torch relay. His life hasn’t been the same since. “First, I didn’t know what was going on. My family, they were so scared.”

His phone began to ring in the middle of the night. At first, they were hang-ups. More calls followed with threatening and obscene messages. Messages left on his answering machine include, “Hey, I wish you to die and go to Hell (obscenity),” and, “Please remember that if you want to be an enemy of the whole Chinese people, then you are doomed, OK?”

The calls kept coming, even during our interview this afternoon. Gendun has also received more than 100 threatening emails.

All of this is because they think Gendun is the man in a picture taken as the Olympic torch passed through London. A protester tried to take the torch from a girl in a wheelchair.

Gendun says he’s responded to some of the emails, and even tried to talk to some of the callers to explain they’re misinformed. “Sometimes they will just swear at me, and I say, ‘Thank you, thank you’. That’s all I say,” he told us.

The calls are coming from all over the world, including China and New York. Gendun doesn’t know how he got mistaken for the man in London. If the calls continue, though, Gendun says he’ll go to the police.

April 15, 2008 @ 9:45 pm | Comment

Richard is good.

There are good things in China, there are also bad things in China. You can critisize China as you think you should, but, don’t say Chinese people or government are doing bad things when they are not, don’t use other countries’ picture as the evidences for Chinese crime, don’t crop pictures in favor of your own preconceptions, don’t assume all chinese people are brainwashed idiots, don’t say the globlization happening in every cornor of the world as the cultural genocide against Tibet……which are the reasons several west media are resented here. Chinese people never hate westerners because they say there are human right problems in China, there are corrputions in China, there are media cercorship in China. You can claim for Tibet independance, you can say policies to Tibetans are not good, but, on the basis of fact, not the facts you made up, not the facts you distorted, not the facts you tailored.

April 16, 2008 @ 1:53 am | Comment

but but.. you’re brainwashed! only i know what tibetans really think because i’m a white man!

April 16, 2008 @ 5:28 am | Comment

but but… you’re biased! only i know what tibetans really think because i’m chinese!

April 16, 2008 @ 5:37 am | Comment

@Some guy
Trust me. If you look hard enough, you can always find some justification or other for racism and bigotry. But that still doesn’t mean racism is right. I would have expected someone as revered as DL to be above that, but he seems to be a rather typical case of “do as I say, not as I do.” It’s a bit funny how he embraces globalization and peace and religious revolution where a spiritual leader can just be an elected politician, but then speaks of cultural genocide, takes money from convicted criminals, and is regarded by his followers to be God, his words absolute. I guess it’s whatever is most convenient at the time, and he must be a very confused man, at the very least. I, for one, cannot really imagine someone who is supposed to be spiritually pure being able to make the kind of dirty deals a suave politician would have to make.

@Raj
Hmm. I thought DL wasn’t a child at the time when he awarded top positions in his government to those people. I guess he could have been deceived in the nature of Nazism when he sought out their company. I mean, given what they did to the German public at the time, you’d think the Nazi’s are pretty good at being deceivingly friendly to those they wish to draw to them.

April 16, 2008 @ 7:01 am | Comment

@@: I don’t trust you. There is no justification for rascism or bigotry. You are a confused individual, you don’t even know what you are talking about.
Your line of argument: DL = nazi, blablabla. Why don’t you tell us what could be done to improve the situation. If you could.

April 16, 2008 @ 7:50 am | Comment

@ecodelta

I did not say Chinese people know more about Tibet because they are chinese, how ever the fact is, they indeed know more about Tibet than many protestors.

April 16, 2008 @ 10:24 am | Comment

Wei,

You got it! However, you must do something for your interlocutors in return: please realise that the average ill-informed yammerer you might see comments from in some other forum does not represent every other person from the West. There are a lot of uninformed and sparsely informed people in every country, but if you really want to understand a particular way of thinking, you will look for the most cogent comments and filter out the inane ones.

I think you’re basically preaching to the choir here on the Peking Duck — the quality of comments on average is quite high.

April 16, 2008 @ 10:33 am | Comment

wei wrote:

***You can critisize China as you think you should, but, don’t say Chinese people or government are doing bad things when they are not, don’t use other countries’ picture as the evidences for Chinese crime, don’t crop pictures in favor of your own preconceptions, don’t assume all chinese people are brainwashed idiots, don’t say the globlization happening in every cornor of the world as the cultural genocide against Tibet……which are the reasons several west media are resented here.***

Friend, have you heard of Gao Zhisheng?

Do you acknowledge that people are being harvested for their organs in China?

Have you read the following article? (Link provided below.)

http://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/ma3

And do you seriously think a country where such things are found deserves to host the Olympics?

Oh, wait, maybe you’re saying these are all made up by Wesetrners with hostile intentions. Well, then, please supply convincing evidence. And you must explain why I should believe you more than the various sources from which I learned of the above.

It’s true that many Westerners are self-righteous hypocrites who judge others by one standard and themselves by another — and I detest them as much as you do. And it’s also true that you can’t always apply the same standard to different milieux, with their different domestic problems, backgrounds etc. But how does the hypocrisy of Westerners excuse the abovementioned atrocities (assuming they’re not made up)? And what kind of standard is it that can allow for these atrocities? (I’m confident Confucius himself would have condemned them.)

And if all the 1.3 billion mainland Chinese can still want to support the Olympics in spite of the above, then I honestly think they’re tragically blind.

BTW, I don’t (necessarily) believe in an independent Tibet. I’m just suspicious that the Tibetans are not happy with Chinese rule, and curious as to the reason why. (I shall assume that the recent riots in Tibet are not just caused by a few hooligans but are really an expression of long-suppressed resentment on the part of the Tibetan people in general.)

—————-

snow wrote:

***K T Ong, hey dont loose your hope stuff, thats what the evil power wants, they can easily count you aside, use you for what they want if you loose your positiveness..***

Advice taken, thanks.

It’s hard work, though.

April 16, 2008 @ 11:47 am | Comment

@wei

Hi wei.
I was not answering to you but to ferin.
He is our official troll here. He is as smart guy, but some times he goes over the edge.
I just wanted to counterbalance his post in an ironic way. I do not really think that skin color or country of origin make ones opinions better than others. (my own skin can change a lot of color depending if is winter or summer 😉

You are welcome here to discuss.

April 16, 2008 @ 3:02 pm | Comment

***K T Ong

Friend, have you heard of Gao Zhisheng?
—- heard of him. I don?t know exactly the case situation. Generally I oppose government to jail someone for his words the government doesn?t like.

Do you acknowledge that people are being harvested for their organs in China?
—- Some people say this on the Internet; I read such claims lots of times. I cannot say no criminals do this in China. To be honest, if you think it is done by government systematically as some people say on the web, you are too naﶥ. Actually I also read some articles describing such crimes across borders of some countries.

Have you read the following article? (Link provided below.)
—- This matter has been covered in China by tons of papers. The criminals were jailed or executed. Recently an official of that place who was removed for that matter is promoted again, and soon removed again because of people?s protest.

http://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/ma3

And do you seriously think a country where such things are found deserves to host the Olympics?
—- Sure, I support Beijing to host O game. Some people think China doesn?t deserve it, some people think China does, they decided this matter by vote. More than half of Olympics Commissioners thought China does. So it is a result of democracy, right? As to you, you think a country cannot do something good before it becomes perfect, such as hosting an O game? Seems that is a good thought, but actually it is wrong.

We Chinese people know lots of things of such kind as you mentioned. We know China is not a perfect country, we know there are lots of bad things in China, we are living with them everyday now, and we are trying to figure them out everyday. We don?t expect to become perfect very soon, because we understand the complexity of history, society, surroundings and lots of other limitations restricting us.

We see China as a stream of history. You only see china on its spot image. So when you see such things, you shout, how evil such a country is. You only see a problem itself, we see the history, background, obstacles, sources we can use??we know the past, so we understand the present and also know the future. We don?t expect you as a foreigner to understand our situation as well as we can, just hope foreigners can be objective.

Oh, wait, maybe you’re saying these are all made up by Wesetrners with hostile intentions. Well, then, please supply convincing evidence. And you must explain why I should believe you more than the various sources from which I learned of the above.
—- Think about your mentality when you were writing this. I was and am not saying that. However, when a TV airs pictures of Nepal and Indian police, saying it is Chinese police beating protestors, when rioters were setting on fire and looting, media say peaceful demonstration was cracked down by Chinese government which is killing, don?t you think that is hostile? I once worked as a journalist, I know such editing methods cannot be called objective or neutral.

It’s true that many Westerners are self-righteous hypocrites who judge others by one standard and themselves by another — and I detest them as much as you do. And it’s also true that you can’t always apply the same standard to different milieux, with their different domestic problems, backgrounds etc. But how does the hypocrisy of Westerners excuse the abovementioned atrocities (assuming they’re not made up)? And what kind of standard is it that can allow for these atrocities? (I’m confident Confucius himself would have condemned them.)

—- agree with you. We Chinese are condemning those things you mentioned and not mentioned.

And if all the 1.3 billion mainland Chinese can still want to support the Olympics in spite of the above, then I honestly think they’re tragically blind.
—- it is two separate things to support Olympics and condemning wrongdoings. Even if a bad guy should be allowed to do good things, to treat his guests, right? Let along Chinese people are not a bad guy as whole, they just want to share happiness with and show their progress to guests, in spite they have some pains inside their country.

BTW, I don’t (necessarily) believe in an independent Tibet. I’m just suspicious that the Tibetans are not happy with Chinese rule, and curious as to the reason why.

—- You can only say some Tibetans are unhappy with Chinese rule. Actually, lots of people in China, including Han Chinese, are not happy with present situation for various problems, for example, some people whose fathers and grandfathers were defeated by CCP in civil war. Tibetans can get more preferential treatment than Han Chinese, however, like most other minority ethnics in China and world, because of their location, their history and various reasons, their development cannot be as good as big cities. Such problems are in every province of China. I treat this as a development imbalance problem, not an inter-ethnic problem. The charges that Han Chinese are culturally genocide Tibetan are groundless. I am denying there are some people who want independence for ethnic reason. I think they can clamor for it although I don?t support, but don?t say because Chinese government and Han Chinese are treating them bad in a manner which Chinese people actually are not in.

(I shall assume that the recent riots in Tibet are not just caused by a few hooligans but are really an expression of long-suppressed resentment on the part of the Tibetan people in general.)
—- Such disturbances also happen in other places in China as a result of long-term resentment of some government policies or official behaviors. When you say this, I am not angry, I think it maybe reasonable of you to some extent to think so. Obviously, those media which are criticized by Chinese people did not react like you, as I mention above.

April 16, 2008 @ 3:41 pm | Comment

K T Ong,

Well with respect to the Olympics, they will be held there, the stuff is already built and that stuff is a big part of the hosting deal… I suppose if people really enlightened to things rapidly, we would all develop enough understanding to realize that we should have been paying more attention to morals stuff all along… But that would be quite the shift in the whole dye vat of human thought… i’m not saying I think it wont happen, but it would be like a huge amazing other wordly miracle!!

The problem though is what about the Chinese? Lets say the whole world condemned the CCP regime for its atrocities and all that, what about the Chinese? Isn’t it the Chinese people who are affected most by the regime? I mean yeah, an injustice anywhere is an injustice everywhere, and the globalization of sick human rights violations is real, but at least we have a way to talk about this issue somewhat openly, we have human rights as a concept etc.

But the thing to consider would be how the Chinese people see the regime and whether they will ever see the real history and current facts like the ones you have mentionned…

Frankly, I think that there would be no war, there would be no more CCP, if only the outside world could bring China information, different opinions and facts. If there was a great big satelite that could just beam in information, i think the propaganda would be stripped and the Chinese people would be able to use their own minds to think, i think that would actually solve the problem, whereas denying China the Olympics might not let the Chinese people understand anything and could be confusing to the Chinese people and easily manipulated by the CCP to drive home more and more rediculous propaganda…(however I think boycott and all measures of standing up for good values is good for the people standing up, good for athletes to speak their minds and preseidents and all people cause we are not too far off from being as bought off by money and CCP than the people in China (to be overly negative)

Thats my two cents. I’ll have to come back to read all of Weis post in a bit…

Have a good day everyone (- :

April 16, 2008 @ 11:58 pm | Comment

Wei, It is nice to hear your calm expression. I hope it doesnt bother you that I would disagree with some of it… Its all good, its ok to disagree as long as we can be calm and we both want to move in a positive direction…

1. The IOC is not some democratic body, it is a corporate committee, so the Olympics going to China is not based on deserving, it is based on greed and the supposed wish that the regime would fulfill some criteria of improvement- which it has not, it has intensified its badness in order to look good and hide people who know things.

2. ””’We see China as a stream of history….we know the past, so we understand the present and also know the future.””’ But dont you think that the massive propaganda department is telling you what to think through all sorts of ways? Do you really think that the regime has spent vast amounts of your countries resources to brainwash you people and it has not worked? They dont do it for nothing. People who have varying opinions about history and the present are jailed, tortured and brainwashed, so how can you believe that Chinese people have a clear understanding of things when things are so controlled?

3. “”””The charges that Han Chinese are culturally genocide Tibetan are groundless. “”””” Who carried out the cultural revolution? The CCPs lackies and all the regular brainwashed people right? The cultural revolution was indeed exactly a cultural genocide, it rooted out people who had certain thought characteristics. Now that the CCP wants to globalize it cant do such things but it still feels the need to contain thought and religious beliefs. The Tibetans are treated like the Han, but if the Tibetan or Han want to believe certain things and talk freely, they will be punished by the thought police.

April 17, 2008 @ 12:25 am | Comment

@WL
Umm, you appear to be the confused one. There is never blind and senseless bigotry or racism. If you ask people why, they can always find reasons and justifications, sometimes also known as excuses. The point is it’s still wrong. If you would like to skip the main point and take jabs at my choice of words instead, then there isn’t really much point in this conversation.
My suggestion would be for Tibetan commoners to have a say in this business, about whether they care or how much they care. Exiled ex-aristocrats who excel at putting up a show just smell suspicious. Of course, anything I say is probably just blah blah to you, since taking cheap shots is much easier than serious debate.

April 19, 2008 @ 11:44 am | Comment