the article you link to at the bottom of your post might as well have come from xinhua.

he argues that the protests were timed to coincide with the olympics. big deal! if i am going to risk imprisonment, torture and death, i would rather do it when the world is watching. he then goes on to suggest the protesters wanted to advance independence, not air grievances related to jobs and othe grievances. maybe, maybe not. i do not claim to know that the protestors were a monolithic group. i am not sure what his basis is to claim they were.

it is a red herring to talk about tibet was a theocracy. while true, the article does not mention that the dalai lama has since democratized the political aspect of the organization.

but the most absurd part was the comparison between the dalai lama and al qaeda and the nazis. excuse me?

he finishes off by saying the riots have done nothing to help foster a political settlement. the fact that beijing doesn’t recognize the canary in the coal mine does not mean we should blame tibetans for that.

April 3, 2008 @ 7:30 pm | Comment

Well, as I said, parts made me wince, but on the whole it made me think. But it bore no resemblance to the “Everyone here is happy happy happy” of the Xinhua article. The sentence about al qaeda and the Nazis did make me wince.

I have always had ambivalent feelings about the Tibet question, as I expressed back in 2003. Where I have no ambivalent feelings, however, is the way the Party has handled the situation – very, very sloppily, with a lot of bloodshed and suppression and tyranny. Many of the claims of the Free Tibet movement are debatable, as are the beliefs and tactics of the Falun Gong, but there’s no debate about how the CCP has reacted to these forces. They are their own worst enemy and at times stupid and ham-handed beyond all belief. Especially when they keep on believing happy happy stories about Tibet will smooth over all their crimes.

April 3, 2008 @ 7:57 pm | Comment

i agree with you the ccp is their own worst enemy. the dalai lama appears to me to be a moderate alternative. it seems if he dies, the younger tibetans are more willing to use violence and will push for all out independence.

and this cultural revolution redux language being spouted lately in the chinese media does not help at all.

April 3, 2008 @ 8:17 pm | Comment

No arguments with anything you said. I do think the Tibet situation is misunderstood and romanticized by many, but that’s no excuse for the CCP’s excesses. And if they had a shred of finesse, of flexibility and agility they could make peace with the Dalai Lama and use him to help not only solve the mess but make themselves look more tolerant and benevolent (or at least less malevolent) to a critical world. That, too, may be an oversimplification, but it seems to me it would be a step in the right direction. Don’t hold your breath. The Party will continue to ensure it wins universal loathing for its pig-headed approach to Tibet.

April 3, 2008 @ 8:46 pm | Comment

@Richard

Barry Sautman’s piece is truly embarrassing to read and there is little that makes me think other than how ask low a person can sink. To me, it reads like kind of academic apologist pieces for Japanese rule in Manchukuo you would occasionally find in the European or American press in the 1930s.

April 3, 2008 @ 9:06 pm | Comment

Why? I’m willing to listen, and I had some issues with it, but I thought he punctured a few myths pretty deftly. There seem to be so many myths on both sides. I tend to support the Dalai Lama’s call for autonomy and deplore the Chinese suppression dressed up as liberation. But I don’t support the recent riots, which were not what the Dalai Lama envisions; and there was plenty of fault on all sides. I thought Sautman did a good job making this point until he made the al qaeda/Nazi allusion. Take a look at that piece I wrote in 2003, and you’ll see this is something I’ve always tried to explore, with the discussion usually devolving into an emotional mess on all sides. Like I said, the Sautman article made me think. But as usual, I expect the discussion to go down the usual path.

April 3, 2008 @ 9:50 pm | Comment

I think that maybe he made some useful points, but framed them within much broader incorrect points.
Another problem is: “Tibet has none of the indicia of a colony or occupied territory and thus has no relationship to self-determination, a concept that in recent decades has often been misused, especially by the US, to foster the breakup of states and consequent emiseration of their populations.”
His reference to the reactionary and racist trends of political movements would seem to relate much more to the ultimate form of political correctness at the moment in China, nationalism.
I’ve read other things by Barry Sautman, and was a bit surprised by the tone of this entire article.

April 3, 2008 @ 11:28 pm | Comment

No, Tibet was not a nice place before 1950. Does that mean the people should be treated so badly after that ? Does that mean their monasteries should be torn down and the monks scattered ?

No, riots are not nice. Especially that 1967 Communist riot in Hong Kong, killing peaceful people, journalists, police with bombs – thousands. The Communists have set a very clear example of how to fight unwanted overlords.

April 4, 2008 @ 12:04 am | Comment

Thats a good point Bill,

Going a bit off topic… When the CCP was rising in China, they blatantly supported violent rebellion against the authorities, the told the people to go ape on all forms of ownership, moral authority, etc. Their intent was supposedly to elliminate such a class and have everyone be equal. During the cultural revolution Mao applauded the next group of rebels who were pissed at the CCP quadres for acting like the old authorities… There was so much killing and rampageing for the sake of a fucked up ideology, I cant believe it.. Anyway, that secondary rebellion accelerated and was applauded by Mao UNTIL, the rebels tracked the problem to the head of the CCP, there were the same old issues from the very top quadre. The rebels thought they were being applauded for being so revolutionnary until they were deemd ANTI revolutionnary at the point where they criticized the party. So it was okay to kill anyone except the party, it was okay to rebel against anyone but the party, it was okay to follow the principle of violent revolution except toward the party.

The whole thing is a farce, it was all just a ploy to get CCP as the overlords. They tricked the people so bad, they got in with principles that were only there to use the people to kill off the old authorities, the CCP just used the ideology to control people to kill on its behalf.

Iread the article, but it doesnt explain away the issue of why the Tibetan people feel the need to rise up and oust the CCP regime…

I dont know the Tibetan mentality very well, but I can definitely sympathize with any ‘theist’ person living under an authoritarian anti-theistic regime. thats my only stance on that since as a Buddhist person,I would say that ones spiritual health is what counts the most…. If you take a person who believes in an absolute good and force them to instead worship material benefits, you are damning them to hell (in a sense) and that is much worse than killing the body or taking the land er whatever…

April 4, 2008 @ 4:22 am | Comment

The Sautman article is probably the single best defence of the Chinese occupation that I’ve read. If the People’s Daily could manage to write all there articles like this, the CCP might stand a chance of winning some arguments.
The biggest problem, though, is his abuse of the idea of ‘ethnicity’. Ethnicity implies some kind of genealogical division, and that side steps the real issue and links the Tibetan and most other independence movements with racism. The real issue is a culture. The ‘ethnic politics’ of Taiwan, were not ethnic politics at all, as most of Taiwan’s population is ethnically identical to the Mainland’s. After World War II, however, they were a society used to basic personal security and a working infrastructure in contrast to the KMT Chinese who mostly came from mostly scratch agricultural backgrounds, so the conflict was really a cultural one.

The root of the problem is that the Tibetans and Mainland Chinese have very different expectations about how social relationships should work, partly based on religion, but also based on their more general world views. Like the Richard who posted on Black and White Cat (don’t know if it was this site’s Richard) asked, “Why, given their total control, has China failed to win over the Tibetan people given their extensive control?�

I also think that Sautman was cherry picking on the subject of ‘humanitarian catastrophes’ that occurred because of separtist movements. I’m not suggesting that a post-colonial Tibet would be a Shangrila, but there have been many break away states that are succeeding as nations; the breakup of the USSR, which he alluded to a few times as the Tibetan separtists’ supposed model, gives a few examples.

Despite the impressive articulation and amount of thought that went into this article, still the most sympathetic way that I can view the PRC’s continued occupation of Tibet and the various PRC commenters’ advocacy of it is to compare it to someone so committed to keeping their family together that they are willing to keep one member chained up in basement to do so.

April 4, 2008 @ 4:30 am | Comment

Also, using favourable comparison of the CCP’s rule vs the indigenous Tibetan rule of the past as an argument for the continued occupation is just inviting comparisons with ‘the White Man’s Burden’ type colonial perspective.

April 4, 2008 @ 5:11 am | Comment

@Richard

I think we agree more than you think. Needless to say, Tibet was no Shangri-la before 1951 and there are aspects of the Tibetan exile government that both of us would disagree with.

But my response is: so what? No liberation movement is perfect. You go and check all saints of decolonization and you will find a lot to disagree with. Does that change my stance that Tibetans have the right voice their grievance with the status quo or to demand more autonomy or independence, if they so wish? Not at all.

Similarly, I do believe that the Chinese had the right to demand an end to imperialism in China when the integrity of China was under threat. And you put those movements under scrutiny and you will find that many anti-imperialist movements in China were incredibly violent. I don’t condone that violence.

Prof. Sautman’s article is not thoughtful at all, it reads like the usual pro-colonial stuff you would read in the Western press in the interwar or post war period.

Just two examples:

Tibet has none of the India of a colony or occupied territory and thus has no relationship to self-determination…

You have to wonder what planet this guy lives on. Since WWI, task number one for any colonial regime is not pretend that its rule is not colonial but only for the benefit of the natives. That’s how the Japanese justified their rule in China, they were just fighting “xenophobic” Chinese extremists.

Western elites have thus widely condemned China for suppressing riots that these elites would never allow to go unsuppressed in their own countries.

How can we even start to talk about the riots of we don’t talk about what happened before or after? Sure, riots have to be suppressed, but pretending that this is a law-and-order issue is not getting us anywhere.

By the way, if I am not mistaken Prof. Sautman was quoted approvingly in the Internet version of People’s Daily, so whether he like it or not he is becoming part of Xinhua’s propaganda.

April 4, 2008 @ 5:35 am | Comment

The captain of the Indian Soccer team boycotts the Olympic torch

http://www.asianews.it/index.php?l=en&art=11899

April 4, 2008 @ 5:41 am | Comment

His holiness did have a top advisor from the Nazi SS death squad.

April 4, 2008 @ 6:16 am | Comment

@pmw
That’s the kind of statement you need a source for.

April 4, 2008 @ 6:46 am | Comment

By the way, when China was more useful to the United States, it looks like there wasn’t much dispute about Tibet’s status as part of China:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kWnRl16H1mY

April 4, 2008 @ 7:04 am | Comment

The person in question is an Austrian named Heinrich Harrer, who died recently. He was the character played by Brad Pitt in “Seven Years in Tibet”, which is as close to the history as “300”. A German magazine reviewed that he joined the SA storm troops in 1933 when it was still illegal in Austria. He could’ve disputed that but he didn’t. From that, it’s pretty safe to say he wasn’t a go-with-the-flow type of Nazis, but rather a hardcore one.

Nazi had a weird obsession on Tibet (something about Aryan forefathers in Asia…). A belief held by many Chinese is that through the teaching of Harrer, Dalai Lama developed a sense of racial superiority vis-a-vis Han Chinese, hence miscalculated in 1959 when he came to the aid of those Tibetans outside of TAR. You can find plenty of “proofs” in his early writings and statements. However, personally I tend to give him the benefit of doubt that he is a genuinely changed man, or a genuinely changed living god/king if you will.

April 4, 2008 @ 7:28 am | Comment

@JXie
Thanks. I was aware of Harrer and his friendship with Tenzin Gyatso, but I didn’t know about his involvement with the Nazis.

@CCT
Great old movie. From that particular source, I haven’t noticed a whole lot of difference between their position in the 1940s and today. George Bush politely reccommended a chit chat between Hu, Wen, and Gyatso, but that’s been about it.

Mind you, if we had asked the average Tibetan in the 1940s what he thought about the film’s assertions, he might have had a few points that he wished to dispute.

April 4, 2008 @ 8:24 am | Comment

http://www.datum.at/0106/static/0106datum/images/hitler.jpg

Our dearest friend, 2nd left.

April 4, 2008 @ 8:34 am | Comment

http://www.tibet.com/status/friends.jpeg
His holiness and his Friends. On his left and right are his two advisors, Heinrich Harrer and Herr Doktor Bruno Beger, another SS member and convicted war criminal. The good Doktor’s outstanding service and ‘experimentation’ in Auschwitz is not to be overlooked either.

http://www.iivs.de/~iivs01311/SDLE/Part-2-13-Dateien/image002.jpg

Another familiar face, personal friend of his holiness.
Incidentally (?), he admires Hitler.

April 4, 2008 @ 8:53 am | Comment

CCT,

It’s not just the US. Between 1911 and 1951 when Tibet was supposedly ‘independent’, there were a grand total of 4 countries (including one which is now Indian rule) that the tibetan exile govenment could recount as having diplomatic relationships with them.

April 4, 2008 @ 9:03 am | Comment

CCT,

What this film shows is that Tibetan nationalism is not something driven primarily by U.S. policy. There was plenty of dispute in the early 40s about Tibet being part of China, but it didn’t come from the U.S. government. It came from Tibetans.

April 4, 2008 @ 10:03 am | Comment

I would be very wary of tying the Dalai Lama to the Nazis. Unless you can be real specific about it and prove your point, this guilt by association argument only robs you of your credibility.

Amban, we totally agree on just about everything (in reference to your long comment way up there).

Lime, I think you’re beig a little too critical of Sautman. I agree about his cherry picking, and unfortunately that casts a shadow over the rest of the article. Looking over some of the reviews of books he has written, I think he is nearly apoplectic with rage and frustration over the fact thst so many outside of China have a romanticized view of Tibet while knowing nothing of its middle class and of its actual past. I think he got carried away, trying to hard to make his point and thus diminishing his argument.

April 4, 2008 @ 10:44 am | Comment

As for the alleged Nazi connection, a stray Austrian SS hardly amounts to any conclusive proof that

It may be worthwhile that if there was anyone in China who had strong relations with Nazi Germany in 1933 and thereafter, that person hwas Chiang Kai-shek. And China and Nazi Germany had strong relations even after Japan invaded China in 1937. Nazi Germany even moved their embassy to Chongqing and did not switch recognition to Wang Jingwei until 1941.

Here by the way, is a picture taken of Chiang Wei-kuo in Wehrmacht outfit, in 1938.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Chiang_Wei-kuo_Nazi_2.jpg

This is one year after Japan’s invasion and the same year as the Kristallnacht. Now if we are to talk about historical connections, we here have a regime that unlike Tibet actually was represented in Nazi Germany. What were the Chiangs up to in Germany, do you think? Speaking up for persecuted minorities or learning how to build a strong army?

April 4, 2008 @ 10:57 am | Comment

OK, I posted without previewing, so I reiterate:

As for the alleged Nazi connection, a stray Austrian SS hardly amounts to any conclusive proof that DL was or is a Nazi.

Now, if we should engage in guilt by association, here is a way we could do it. If there was anyone in China who had strong relations with Nazi Germany in 1933 and thereafter, that person was Chiang Kai-shek. And China and Nazi Germany had strong relations even after Japan invaded China in 1937. Nazi Germany moved their embassy to Chongqing when Chiang’s regim relocated and the Nazis did not switch recognition to Wang Jingwei until 1941.

Here by the way, is a picture taken of Chiang Wei-kuo in Wehrmacht outfit, in 1938.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Chiang_Wei-kuo_Nazi_2.jpg

This is one year after Japan’s invasion and the same year as the Kristallnacht. Now if we are to talk about historical connections, here we have a regime that, unlike Tibet, actually was represented in Nazi Germany and presumably had eyes to see with. Now what were the Chiangs up to in Germany, do you think? Speaking up for persecuted minorities or learning how to build a strong army?

And remember that the claims over Tibet from this Nazi tainted regime are part of the legal rationale for the PRC claiming Tibet.

April 4, 2008 @ 11:30 am | Comment

What about American media’s reports on “happy lives” of Iraqis. How everyone was so happy to greet the American soldiers, so happy to vote, so happy to have freedom.

After the recent performance by the American media on Tibet, there’s a now a new saying in China: “That is so CNN”. “So CNN” refers to something that is so obviously deceptive, twisted and untrue. For example, you can say “Oh come on, don’t be so CNN!”

( Btw, the original version of that phrase is “That is so CCTV”. Congratulations CNN, you now have a lower image than CCTV in the hearts of Chinese, the Chinese gov’t probably is very happy about that).

April 4, 2008 @ 11:40 am | Comment

HX, I have a question that bugs me about Chinese people…

How come you guys think you are so superior and all, you think China is sooo great and better than other countries, BUT, you guys ALWAYS say stuff like “well America is bad so its okay that we’re bad too”

I mean, if someone says, hey, you, canadian, you treat your native people badly, I would not go and say, yeah well, Hitler killed six million Jews, so its okay…

I’m just saying, a low standard doesnt mean your doin good, it just means you have a really low standard. (and I am not by any means saying that USA is worse compared to CCP regime, but I do think China is a greater nation in a way and SHOULD hold itself to a very high standard)

“””””Congratulations CNN, you now have a lower image than CCTV in the hearts of Chinese,”””””

I think CNN WOULD care if Chinese people were not brainwashed. The way a Chinese person thinks about something is contrived by brainwashing so does not reflect reality, this is the perfect example, CNN botched some info of some photo captions or some video captions and now they are seen as WORSE!!! than CCTV!! I mean what total and utter insanity!

“the hearts of Chinese?!!!” I wont even go there…

April 4, 2008 @ 11:56 am | Comment

No, I will go there.

Hong Xing, How many Chinese people do you think are aware of the fact that the CCP steels vital organs from Falun Gong people on demand for sale?

And how many Chinese people care?

I am a bit cynical about ‘the hearts of Chinese’ these days man.

April 4, 2008 @ 11:58 am | Comment

The Chiangs weren’t just up to no good in Germany.

Chiang Ching-kuo, the elder brother, was educated in Moscow and married a Russian wife. Definitely a commie.

Madame Chiang had a Methodist upbringing and graduated from Wellesley: God fearing Chinese American Princess.

As for Generalissimo Chiang Kai-shek: a Mussolini wannabe.

April 4, 2008 @ 12:24 pm | Comment

snow, good to know you seem to feel you can speak for all Canadians. Now it makes perfect sense why you feel red star can speak on behalf of all chinese. Such simplistic statements are not helpful to anyone, including the Tibetans.

April 4, 2008 @ 12:29 pm | Comment

To me, the biggest problem is still that in Sautman’s argument, it seems that any separtist movement anywhere can be written off as a fantasy, and all people should be stuck in whatever national arangement they are currently in perpetually. If that’s how he views it, I suppose we just have to agree to disagree, but try telling the Ukrainians they shouldn’t have left the USSR.

If this isn’t what Sautman is saying, we have to ask what makes Tibetan separtism illegitimate. I’m with Amban in that I don’t see why we have to view this any differently than any other imperialism. Whatever indicia of colony or occupied territory that Tibet lacks is essential to Sautman’s argument, and without it, the piece is a blunt weapon hammering us with facts, and completely without a cutting edge.

The other question we have to ask is why must we support the Chinese occupation/territorial right. His answers all seem to revolve around the Dalai Lama and his previous government’s flaws, and the relatively benign rule of the PRC. It’s all very interesting, and a good argument for not losing ourselves to sheer outrage at the PRC, but, like Amban said, we’ve seen this all before. These are the same arguments the Japanese made and British before them; the ignorant savages are not capable of ruling themselves, and only with the benefit of our good government can they ever hope to make anything of themselves. In short, Sautman has laid out the Zhong Guo Ren’s Burden. If we accept this, it goes back to the first disagreement, but if not, we have to find another reason.

Sautman’s rage at the lack of any real understanding of Tibet or interest in gaining an understanding in the free world is justified, and I am getting the impression from this blog that this is something we have in common with the mainland China. Perhaps checking out Sautman’s books would be a good idea for all of us, as we can’t expect anything too insightful on the subject of Tibetan society from either the People’s Daily or CNN anytime soon.

April 4, 2008 @ 2:45 pm | Comment

I just love the idea of defending the dalai lama by way of criticizing Chiang Kai Shek.

Incidentally (?), Chiang was the biggest military supporter and provider of the government-in-exile of his holiness, for a while that is, until his peaceful non-violent holiness found CIA as a better partner. They seem to share not just associations with the Nazis, but also deep hatred of the CCP.

You know what would be funny? Reading Chiang’s open letter to dalai, “To our Tibetan Compatriots”. The irony is endless.

April 4, 2008 @ 3:23 pm | Comment

Doktor Beger was no stray Austrian SS, just to clarify. He’s a convicted war criminal and mass murderer.

And neither was Heinrich Harrer. I wouldn think not every “stray” Austrian SS gets his marriage personally approved by Himmler himself, or gets sent to a mission personally by Hitler himself.

Btw, I don’t quite get the vibe that an Austrian Nazi is somehow less legitimate of a Nazi than a German Nazi. WTF?

Harrer joined Nazi SA in 1933 when Austria wasn’t yet taken over by Hitler, in Austria where joining the Nazi was still illegal. That’s gotta take some kind of dedication, no?

When in the British war prisoner camp, Harrer refused to accept his release in exchange for denouncing Nazism. That’s gotta take some dedication too, no? In stead, he tried to escape several times, and finally succeeded before he would become the tutor and soulmate of his holiness.

April 4, 2008 @ 3:52 pm | Comment

If there is any current politican in the west found having a photo taken side by side with two ex SS officiers, it is not too hard to imagine the outcry that follows. (let alone hiring one as his/her advisor)

Here we see people defending his “HOLINESS”, the Nobel PEACE prize winner, to their last breath using whatever “counter-argument” they can possilbly and impossibly to find. What an entertainment.

April 4, 2008 @ 7:23 pm | Comment

I just love the idea of defending the dalai lama by way of criticizing Chiang Kai Shek.

That’s not the idea, if you care to read my contribution. I was only saying that if you want to play guilt-by-association, there is plenty to suggest that Chinese politicians have been infested by Nazism.

Doktor Beger was no stray Austrian SS, just to clarify. He’s a convicted war criminal and mass murderer.

That’s a new way of playing guilt-by-association, by retroactive incrimination. Bruno committed his war crimes after his trip to Tibet.

Harrer joined Nazi SA in 1933 when Austria wasn’t yet taken over by Hitler, in Austria where joining the Nazi was still illegal. That’s gotta take some kind of dedication, no?

Well, I’m no expert on Harrer, but I know that the current DL was not yet born then. And he was not enthroned until 1940, at the age of five. Just to keep a few facts straight.

April 4, 2008 @ 9:02 pm | Comment

“was only saying that if you want to play guilt-by-association, there is plenty to suggest that Chinese politicians have been infested by Nazism.”

So what? Even you produce tons of evidence that Chinese politicans have been infested by Naziam, this does not change the asslication between the DL and ex SS officers a bit.

What you are talking about is irrelevant to the orginal point made about the DL’s Nazi friends.

April 5, 2008 @ 1:21 am | Comment

Shtick,

Sorry, can you please tell me what exactly I did wrong so then I can fix it? But in general I will agree that broad statements are far from absolute.

April 5, 2008 @ 2:09 am | Comment

Chiang was a bad man? I doubt many people nowadays think otherwise. However, the image of his holiness in the eyes of the western world, that’s a different matter.

Not that I think he is or was a Nazi, which I am not sure of at all. Or that anyone is holding him responsible for someone else’s actions before or after they met him. However, would it be totally inappropriate for him to answer for what friends he chooses to have?

You’d think people will distance themselves from the Nazis after WWII. My bet is the Chiang’s wanted nothing to do with the Nazis after the war – I’m not entirely sure, they were bad men after all.

To keep the facts straight, of what we can find and verify, his holiness befriends a committed Austrian SS, a German SS and mass murderer, a Japanese death cult leader and accepts millions in donation from him, a Chilean dictator and worked hard to have him avoid trial of his crimes, and a Chilean Nazi.

He also received millions from the CIA for decades, who provides his peaceful holiness with weapons and military personnel training, and made his brothers heads of those operations.

We also know that he did jack squat before the ‘Chinese invasion’ to improve the lives of Tibetans, 90% of which were serfs and 5% slaves. In his own words, that was to “maintain the delicate balance of life across the high plateau on which we live, inspired by Buddha’s message of non-violence and compassion”. He again did jack squat between 1951 and 1959 to improve the lives of Tibetans when he was still in charge of Tibet and a member of the Chinese central government.

To be fair, I think he might have totally meant the non-violence part. Torture and mutilation, like eye gouging, amputation, pulling off toughs, skinning… aren’t deemed violence by these buddhists as long as the victim doesn’t die immediately. Just two days ago, spokesman for his holiness’ government-in-exile made this clear: the violence against ethnic Han and Hui Chinese recently is not deemed violence in their eyes. To them, ‘violence is taking others lives’. “To beat the Hans and not kill them is not violence”, “To burn down shops is not violence”, and if people died from these fires, it’s not violence either.

http://telechargement.rfi.fr.edgesuite.net/rfi/chinois/audio/modules/actu/R100/fait_du_jour_jour020408.mp3

April 5, 2008 @ 2:26 am | Comment

Amban,

We know what guilt by association is. What I do not get is how bad you are at ridiculing it. Wouldn’t you have more purchase if your alternative target would actually embarrass whoever/whatever you think you are defending the dalai against?

Besides, it’s not like his holiness never had a chance to condemn the criminal past of his friends.

April 5, 2008 @ 2:56 am | Comment

@pmv
I think you should take this up with Richard Gere, mate. 😉

April 5, 2008 @ 3:09 am | Comment

Lime,

I fail to get what you mean, or to detect the humor within. I do think that you are attempting at humor tho.

Actually there’s one thing I would like to share about Richard Gere. What I heard is that he got very pissed that Steven Segal was made a tulka (living buddha) instead of him. In some events involving his holiness, he was seated a couple rows back from Segal. He didn’t like that very much either.

April 5, 2008 @ 3:26 am | Comment

Hmm, apparently I signed with your name. Sorry bro.

April 5, 2008 @ 3:27 am | Comment

Here is a very important documentary, I hope people everywhere will find out whats going on over there.

In China /Tibet, yur either brainwashed, you dont care, you risk your life or you’re damn scarred. The CCP will settle for a combination of all of these.

http://www.megavideo.com/?v=3W51FY81

April 5, 2008 @ 3:34 am | Comment

@PMV
No worries about the name signing. My point was that we’re not the Dalai Lama fan club here. The joke was not much of a joke. I know that you probably won’t have a chance to debate this with Richard Gere, and even if you did it would probably go nowhere, but it’s his (and I guess Steven Segal’s) perspective that you’re really arguing against.
To me, Tenzin Gyatso is just a politician, and the Dalai Lama is a relic that I find neat for historical reasons.

April 5, 2008 @ 3:46 am | Comment

Lime,

I think you might be trivializing the views of a large portion of the western population (and not just the western populations). To me, Tenzin Gyatso is just a politician too, one with quite some interesting company, and one without much of a base at that. However, I doubt that many people here on this forum take your view. I doubt that his holiness received accolades all over the (mostly western) world because they hold a perspective similar to yours instead of what you call Richard Gere’s. His status as a spiritual leader, as an icon for peace and nonviolence, is infinitely exaggerated and distorted. It might just be me though.

April 5, 2008 @ 4:03 am | Comment

I dont know anyone who cares about the Dalai Lama. He’s cool cause he represents a voice opposed to communist rule and he expresses himself calmy and rationally. I think thats the extent of it. Yeah, he is supposedly a Buddhist and therefore non violent, people like that. If he didint promote non violence no one would like him anymore than anyone else. The amount of violence against the Tibetan people is big, and the way they are treated is horrible, and the Da lai Lama encourages the people to not treat the Chinese people the same way, but to be peaceful… So people think thats good…

I think the Dalai Lama represents a middle of the road solution for international community in dealing with China. People want to stand up for the right thing without actually taking a stance, the Dalai Lama enables the world to sit on the fence that is Dalai Lama.

Just my own opinion on it (-:

April 5, 2008 @ 5:01 am | Comment

A powerful explosion has ripped through a house in the Indian state of West Bengal, killing at least three people.

A police chief said the dead have not yet been identified, but that they may be Tibetans.

The owner of the house, in the town of Siliguri, said that it was rented by a Tibetan exile who said he was using it in connection with a computer business.

But the police maintained that after the blast they recovered a large quantity of explosives and detonators.

They say that timers were also discovered.

Police said those killed were perhaps members of an underground group who had rented the house by providing false identities.

The BBC’s north-east India correspondent says that Siliguri – in the north of the state of West Bengal – has been used as a base or transit point for a number of rebel groups.

Local Kamtapuri tribesmen who want a separate state in northern Bengal are believed to have a presence there, as do Nepalese and Indian Maoists.

Tibetan exiles have a huge presence in the town and in the nearby hills of Darjeeling and Kalimpong.

April 5, 2008 @ 5:36 am | Comment

@CC and pmw

All I’m saying is that posing on a picture with a Nazi doesn’t make you a Nazi, and it is ridiculous to make this linkage since it has little to do with recent events in Tibet. Period.

And just as a factual matter, to take events in Lhasa on 3/14 as representative of the Tibetan protests as a whole is dishonest in the extreme. (Which is why I take issue with Sautman’s article.) The protesters in Lhasa constitute only a small minority of the total number of protest, most of which to place outside of the TAR. Take a look at this map for instance:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/mbrownerhamlin/2362229071/

If Western media reports have been incompetent and erroneous, it is pernicious and unforgivable to fan ethnic hatred by only publicizing information about 3/14 and suppress all information about the other protest, which is what the People’s Daily is doing.

April 5, 2008 @ 5:38 am | Comment

Amban,

Do you actually read People’s Daily or do you also make a habit of just talking out of your ass? In the two minutes I spent on their website, I already spotted ‘reports’ on riots in two different regions.

Oh, but they are more of the same of the Lhasa story and they aren’t reporting the protests, the peaceful ones. Sure, they are the communist propaganda machine, what more do you expect of them? What is your excuse for painting anything outside of 3/14 in Lhasa with a rosy brush? What is your excuse of lying about People’s daily suppressing all other information except 3/14?

And, I for one, am not arguing that dalai has to be a Nazi just because he posed in pictures with Nazis. I said he had a Nazi advisor (which is inaccurate since he had at least two), someone asked for source and I obliged. If said pictures are not credible enough, the names certainly would enable anyone to google.

But I am arguing against the notion of his holiness being an honest, peace loving, non-violence advocating spiritual leader.

April 5, 2008 @ 7:24 am | Comment

“All I’m saying is that posing on a picture with a Nazi doesn’t make you a Nazi, and it is ridiculous to make this linkage since it has little to do with recent events in Tibet. Period.”

Why are you so quick to dispute this evidence? Having a picture with Nazi certainly makes him more likely a Nazi than anyone who doesn’t.

And of course Dala’s integraity means everything to recent events in Tibet. It’s largely becuase of him, the purported living God and one of the most respected spiritual leaders, that China’s rule in Tibet has been demonized so thoroughly and the Free Tibet campaign has received such wide-spread support from the West.

In addition I doubt being affiliated with Nazi could make him any less popular in nowadays Germany anyway.

April 5, 2008 @ 8:12 am | Comment

One thing the Chinese government can do now is to establish funds to help the separatism groups in any countries that challenge China on Tibet, just like what the US government has been doing for so many years.

It’s time to counter attack.

April 5, 2008 @ 8:20 am | Comment

@hongxing

“After the recent performance by the American media on Tibet, there’s a now a new saying in China: “That is so CNN”. “So CNN” refers to something that is so obviously deceptive, twisted and untrue. For example, you can say “Oh come on, don’t be so CNN!””

Dear Red Star, please stop pretending that you know anything about China. You are safe and warm in the evil US of A. You’ve most likely never been to China. And you know shit about whatever new saying in China.

April 5, 2008 @ 10:11 am | Comment

“Why are you so quick to dispute this evidence? Having a picture with Nazi certainly makes him more likely a Nazi than anyone who doesn’t.”

The funny thing about all those CCP apologist trying to link the DL to the Nazis is that many Chinese people (especially in the CCP) think of Adolf as a great hero. Of course, I’m totally wrong here, I’m just blowing anecdotes out of proportion. Chinese people only say that when there is no IOC official around.

April 5, 2008 @ 10:16 am | Comment

Yep, I’m exactly a CCP apologist and a Hitler admirer.

This got to be at least the 3rd time I hear people from (presumably) western countries claiming that many Chinese admire Hitler and the Nazis. I mean, really? Where and when did you meet these Chinese people? I lived in China for 20 plus years and the first time I came across a Nazi sympathizer is at a NSM rally in Madison, Wisconsin a couple years back.

Are you guys just happy to make stuff up or am I really missing a secret population of the Chinese?

My only guess is the Chinese people really only confess that to the foreigners that are, you know, not IOC officials.

April 5, 2008 @ 12:07 pm | Comment

@pmw

Sure, they are the communist propaganda machine, what more do you expect of them?

So you hold the People’s Daily to a lower standard than other media?

What is your excuse for painting anything outside of 3/14 in Lhasa with a rosy brush?

Did I?

What is your excuse of lying about People’s daily suppressing all other information except 3/14?

Be reasonable. I was talking about the news blackout. One or two reports about protests outside of Lhasa cannot cancel the fact that the People’s Daily has been hammering the events of 3/14.

@Bing

Why are you so quick to dispute this evidence? Having a picture with Nazi certainly makes him more likely a Nazi than anyone who doesn’t.

Wow. So that’s your standard of evidence.

April 5, 2008 @ 12:58 pm | Comment

This got to be at least the 3rd time I hear people from (presumably) western countries claiming that many Chinese admire Hitler and the Nazis.

“Claim.” I have been at a dinner table in Nanjing (of all places) when a Chinese restaurant owner made a bunch of German guests completely dumbfounded by praising AH. For being strong and killing people. The whole room went silent. I asked one of the Germans afterwards if he was upset and he was, but he added that he has heard those kinds of comments quite a few times. I have no idea how common this kind of behavior is, but it does exist.

April 5, 2008 @ 1:06 pm | Comment

I second or third or fourth this “claim” about Hitler. I have encountered it in casual conversations in both Beijing and Tianjin. Sick puppies!

April 5, 2008 @ 2:43 pm | Comment

“I asked one of the Germans afterwards if he was upset and he was, but he added that he has heard those kinds of comments quite a few times. I have no idea how common this kind of behavior is, but it does exist.”

Yeah he said he was upset but what else could he have said to you even if he wasn’t? You would expect the same reaction if you praised Hideki Tojo in front of a group of Japanese tourists even though they worship him as a national hero.

The restaurant owner may have read some of Hitler’s Mein Kampf or just thought he was still loved by Germans like Japanese war criminals in Japan, and wanted to be friendly to those tourists by complimenting their big man.

Any even if some ordinary Chinese did admire Hitler, how would that compare with the fact that DL, the most influential spiritual leader, had a history with Nazi?

April 5, 2008 @ 5:02 pm | Comment

@pmw

“Yep, I’m exactly a CCP apologist and a Hitler admirer.”

And my experience tells me that you most likely live in an English speaking democracy, enjoying all those civil rights that the people in the People’s Republic of China are denied.

“This got to be at least the 3rd time I hear people from (presumably) western countries claiming that many Chinese admire Hitler and the Nazis.”

What does that tell you? If three different people make the same claim, might it be possible that there is something to it? And what are “(presumably) western countries”? I’m from a (allegedly) European country, but the last time I checked it really was in Europe.

“I mean, really?”

Yes, really, believe it or not. Stop playing dumb, you know very well what I’m talking about.

“Where and when did you meet these Chinese people?”

During the last ten years, in the People’s Republic of China.

“I lived in China for 20 plus years and the first time I came across a Nazi sympathizer is at a NSM rally in Madison, Wisconsin a couple years back.”

There’s no doubt that many countries, including the USA and my home country, have their fair share of Neo-Nazis, but I find it hard to believe that you have lived in China for 20 years without ever coming across a person who expressed admiration for Adolf Hitler.

“Are you guys just happy to make stuff up or am I really missing a secret population of the Chinese?”

We guys are happy to relate our real experiences we made in real China with real Chinese people. You are not missing a secret population, but during those 20 years you obviously didn’t talk to too many people.

“My only guess is the Chinese people really only confess that to the foreigners that are, you know, not IOC officials.”

My only guess is that you never lived in real China, but in that other China presented to the world by CCTV 9.

April 5, 2008 @ 6:40 pm | Comment

@Amban

“I have no idea how common this kind of behavior is, but it does exist.”

It is very common. Almost every German who has spent some time in China (outside a tourist group) can relate to this.

April 5, 2008 @ 6:45 pm | Comment

@Bing

“Yeah he said he was upset but what else could he have said to you even if he wasn’t? You would expect the same reaction if you praised Hideki Tojo in front of a group of Japanese tourists even though they worship him as a national hero.”

He most likely really was upset. There are not that many German people who worship Hitler as a national hero. If he was a Neo-Nazi though, he probably wouldn’t have pretended to be upset.

“The restaurant owner may have read some of Hitler’s Mein Kampf or just thought he was still loved by Germans like Japanese war criminals in Japan, and wanted to be friendly to those tourists by complimenting their big man.”

Which tells us how much the average Chinese person knows about the outside world. Thank you, CCTV!

“Any even if some ordinary Chinese did admire Hitler, how would that compare with the fact that DL, the most influential spiritual leader, had a history with Nazi?”

I’ve taken photos with CCP members, some of whom I call friends. Does that make me a Communist? Discrediting somebody by establishing some sort of link with the Third Reich and the Holocaust is one of the oldest and most common forms of character assassination.

April 5, 2008 @ 6:54 pm | Comment

@mor

It doesn’t matter that much if ordinary people like the restaurant owner or you admire or take pictures with whom. You are minnows.

For people like Dalai, it’s a different stoy. At best that’s sending out a wrong singal. He took pictures with Nazis, he knew who they were and still took pictures with them. Would you do that?

He most likely really was upset. There are not that many German people who worship Hitler as a national hero. If he was a Neo-Nazi though, he probably wouldn’t have pretended to be upset.

They don’t have to worship him. But in their heart do they really completely condemn what Nazi Germany did (not particularly the holocaust) before and during WWII?. I doubt.

Which tells us how much the average Chinese person knows about the outside world. Thank you, CCTV!

Plenty of examples can be found to say the same about the western people’s understanding of China. Thank you self-justified Western media!

April 5, 2008 @ 10:22 pm | Comment

mor,

You crack me up. So basically you are saying I never lived in China, and became a CCP apologist by only watching CCTV-9?

April 6, 2008 @ 2:29 am | Comment

Bing, the Dalai Lama is not a Nazi. Please don’t be so childish.

April 6, 2008 @ 3:26 am | Comment

I pretty much actually agree with the Sautman article, which I really appreciated reading. Though some of the comments left on that site are starting to get a little out of hand. It’s a very emotional topic, I know. But there are always at least two sides to every story, right?

April 6, 2008 @ 1:00 pm | Comment

Yep! The conversation over there is getting a little nasty, with the talk now turning on Tibetan homosexuals. Ouch!

April 6, 2008 @ 1:57 pm | Comment

if we had asked the average Tibetan

Again, everyone keeps saying “the average Tibetan”, “what the Tibetan people think”, so on and so forth. How would anyone know? You have to ask a lot of people to get a consensus and even then it’s not always the best thing to act on.

we have to ask what makes Tibetan separtism illegitimate.

It’s not illegitimate. It’s just less legitimate than Basque, Northern Irish, Catalan, Chukchi, Evenk, Orok, Tuvan, Turkic, Hawaiian, Alaskan, Californian, Texan, Manchurian, Québecois, Australian, and Maori separatism.

April 7, 2008 @ 2:49 am | Comment

One way to know how much of an American lapdog “Tenzin” is, is through his vitriolic attacks on homosexuality and his consistent remarks on the Chinese as dirty, inferior, diseased, etc.

Uighur separatists I’ve spoken to use the same rhetoric and mix it in with Jihadi vocabulary. Just about as pleasant as a fenqing on roids.

April 7, 2008 @ 2:51 am | Comment

mor argumentation:

Everyone in China loves Nazis!
That’s not really believable
YOU’RE A COMMUNIST AND ALL YOU KNOW IS CCP PROPAGANDA.

LALALALA I CANT HEAR YOU

April 7, 2008 @ 2:53 am | Comment

and I mean Tenzin the poster, not Tenzin the Lama.

April 7, 2008 @ 2:55 am | Comment

Wow, our most beloved expert for everything is back.

ferin argumentation:

evil laowai: “A lot of Chinese people admire Adolf Hitler as a great leader.”

ferin: “You (swear word), you are lying you (curse) (swear word). You are just making this up. I never know a Chinese person would admire Nazi. You (swear word)! Go to (curse)!”

evil laowai no. 2: “I have lived in China for several years. I have spoken to many Chinese and quite a few have expressed admiration for Hitler.”

ferin (foam coming out of his mouth): “Kuai shuo peipeipei! Never say that again! You know (swear word) about China. Do you have a link to back up your slander? I can tell you 1993 FBI statistics clearly show that most Nazis are in the USA, followed by Western Europe. China is at the bottom of the list with 0%. And by the way, there was another gun massacre in an American school. Bad, filthy (curse) (swear word) America.”

evil laowai no. 3: “Even my wife who happens to be Chinese says that a lot of Chinese people admire Adolf Hitler as a great man.”

ferin (now spitting fire): “(curse) (swear word)! I don’t care what your wife says, because she is a (swear word), anyway. Where did you… (rest of the comment deleted by administrator for abusive, mysogynous and racist content)

administrator: “ferin, I have to ask you to refrain from name-calling and ad-hominem attacks.”

ferin: “I’m sorry, I didn’t mean to be rude, but when I get provoked by idiots and liars who slander me and call all Chinese people Nazis, I can’t help it.”

youguys: “Dear ferin, I just wanted to tell you what a great inspiration you are. You really kick ass. I am going to introduce you to my oh-so-gorgeous friend from Qingdao. But now I have to go to yoga class.”

P.S.: Ferin, have you gone back to your beloved motherland yet? Oh no, I forgot, you haven’t graduated yet. You first have to get a real degree from a real university in the free world before you can go and live in the worker’s paradise.

April 8, 2008 @ 3:54 am | Comment

AFAIK, if anyone actually likes Hitler, it’s probably due to what he wrote and not what he did. Some stupid boys would say they like weird people to sound cool/different, but there are crazier stunts to pull to get attention, and nobody with half a brain would take them seriously. I remember my mom saying Scar’s song from the Lion King sounded scary and unpleasant, but she couldn’t pinpoint why, and dad saying it resembled Nazi themes.
And yes, I do believe the theory that they say such things to Germans to be friendly. The idea is saying “hey I know someone famous from your country” to reduce the distance. Kinda goes with the old habit of saying “I’ve heard of you/admired you for a long time” upon first meeting a complete stranger. I think the idea is it makes either them or the other person look good. Don’t ask me how the reasoning goes. I guess it’s good to be famous/knowledgeable?
Seriously, if you are an average person in China just trying to make a living, for what reason would you care about Hitler, one way or the other? They probably just remembered hearing his name back in elementary school or something. Oblivious, you say? How many average Europeans or Americans do you think can name the Japanese Generals in charge of invading China during WWII? Should we be thanking CNN for it, if not many?
You don’t like China. We get the drift. But if you are up for discussions instead of venting, you could at least try to sound a little open-minded.

April 8, 2008 @ 12:36 pm | Comment

@.@,

good thinking, but naive (-:

I know that the CCP has used the nazi rise as a teacher for its own tyranical rise. I have read some internal document, sorry, i’ll come back with a link later.) where CCP officials reference how the nazis were too soft and thetlost in the end cause such and such, and they will learn from that… They also learn from Ukraine orange revolution and how to channel their fear into terrorism…

Anyway, I dont think the average Chinese thinks much of Hitler, but I do think the communists (highly zealous atheists , social darwinists…) who do not value human life and think life is but a struggle to shut down anything that get sin the way of socialist pipedream, those people think Hitler was effective, and he was, just most westerners think what he did was wrong. Chinese people have “different culture” ei some of them are EXTREMELY materialistic…

Please correct me if I am wrong.

April 8, 2008 @ 1:34 pm | Comment

Communist is such a funny brand, especially when applied to China. There are extremely materialistic people everywhere. The problem is that some of them are Chinese, and as such cannot openly provide deeply spiritual and religious excuses to justify their actions, so it’s usually safer to complain about Chinese than about some other people. Hear enough complaints, and you start to think they might be the whole complete truth. =P
Being a member of the CCP, as far as I can tell, pretty much only means you are more “elite” than people who are not in the party, in some way or another. Whether it’s better grades in school, or appearing more willing to help others, or having ties in higher places. Highly zealous atheists and social darwinists (and fenqing) are much more accurate names for those who have no way of proving the worth of their lives other than bullying others, IMHO.
It’s easy to brand people when you do not talk to them. One person I know is a devout Buddhist who is on a very strict vegetarian diet and makes offerings to a temple nearby periodically. When I asked her why it is all right to kill plants to obtain food but not animals, her answer was to cite the Buddhism concept of the Cycling of the Sixth Realms to prove that plants weren’t living things. She is kind enough to house several strays at her own expense, even going so far as to buy the occasional fish for them, but her own daughter, who is a growing elementary schooler, gets no animal protein in her diet–not even milk. Would you have expected her to be persecuted? She proclaimed her vegetarianism and religion quite proudly in an open forum recently, and other than a brief debate over whether plants are living things, more people expressed concern over whether such a strict diet would be damaging to her health and whether her daughter was getting enough of the right nutrients for a growing child than anything else, and the thread digressed into a nutritional debate after that.
A few people who participated in the discussion, I knew to be members of the CCP party. But so what? Unless cornered into it, the average Chinese would rather discuss the next/previous meal than politics. The propagandists can stir up the fenqing all they want, but eventually said fenqing either grow older and wiser, or grow older alone and fail to produce offspring (few women like men who are in constant blind fits of rage and lack a basic bottom line in morality and decency). The powers that be may have their secret plans and such, but Hitler and the Holocaust are still condemned in the textbooks, and as long as we do not provide them with ammunition, they are pretty much ignored at best, otherwise. I have an online friend who is voted the most exemplary party member at her office, and she spends the long and boring political meetings drawing up outlines for her online fiction to avoid falling asleep. Even the powers that be know they are a joke. Why else would they try so hard to bribe the Chinese public all the time? Treat them as jokes instead of giving them chances to unite the Chinese people around them with nationalist causes, and it would be interesting to see how much of their present games they can still play in a few years. It’s the West against China? Nope, sorry, read the T-shirt: “I Communist is such a funny brand, especially when applied to China. There are extremely materialistic people everywhere. The problem is that some of them are Chinese, and as such cannot openly provide deeply spiritual and religious excuses to justify their actions, so it’s usually safer to complain about Chinese than about some other people. Hear enough complaints, and you start to think they might be the whole complete truth. =P
Being a member of the CCP, as far as I can tell, pretty much only means you are more “elite” than people who are not in the party, in some way or another. Whether it’s better grades in school, or appearing more willing to help others, or having ties in higher places. Highly zealous atheists and social darwinists (and fenqing) are much more accurate names for those who have no way of proving the worth of their lives other than bullying others, IMHO.
It’s easy to brand people when you do not talk to them. One person I know is a devout Buddhist who is on a very strict vegetarian diet and makes offerings to a temple nearby periodically. When I asked her why it is all right to kill plants to obtain food but not animals, her answer was to cite the Buddhism concept of the Cycling of the Sixth Realms to prove that plants weren’t living things. She is kind enough to house several strays at her own expense, even going so far as to buy the occasional fish for them, but her own daughter, who is a growing elementary schooler, gets no animal protein in her diet–not even milk. Would you have expected her to be persecuted? She proclaimed her vegetarianism and religion quite proudly in an open forum recently, and other than a brief debate over whether plants are living things, more people expressed concern over whether such a strict diet would be damaging to her health and whether her daughter was getting enough of the right nutrients for a growing child than anything else, and the thread digressed into a nutritional debate after that.
A few people who participated in the discussion, I knew to be members of the CCP party. But so what? Unless cornered into it, the average Chinese would rather discuss the next/previous meal than politics. The propagandists can stir up the fenqing all they want, but eventually said fenqing either grow older and wiser, or grow older alone and fail to produce offspring (few women like men who are in constant blind fits of rage and lack a basic bottom line in morality and decency). The powers that be may have their secret plans and such, but Hitler and the Holocaust are still condemned in the textbooks, and as long as we do not provide them with ammunition, they are pretty much ignored at best, otherwise. I have an online friend who is voted the most exemplary party member at her office, and she spends the long and boring political meetings drawing up outlines for her online fiction to avoid falling asleep. Even the powers that be know they are a joke. Why else would they try so hard to bribe the Chinese public all the time? Treat them as jokes instead of giving them chances to unite the Chinese people around them with nationalist causes, and it would be interesting to see how much of their present games they can still play in a few years. It’s the West against China? Nope, sorry, read the T-shirt: “I <3 China, I

April 8, 2008 @ 4:04 pm | Comment

Oops. Forgot you can use HTML.
“I <3 China, I </3 Corruption and Power Abuse”

April 8, 2008 @ 4:09 pm | Comment

Ferin, have you gone back to your beloved motherland yet?

You mean Taiwan? America is free after you built your nation over the corpses of natives and slaves.

some of them are EXTREMELY materialistic…

Not materialistic enough to kill 20 million people for rubber

April 8, 2008 @ 11:46 pm | Comment

Ferin, have you gone back to your beloved motherland yet?

You mean Taiwan? America is free after you built your nation over the corpses of natives and slaves.

some of them are EXTREMELY materialistic…

Not materialistic enough to kill 20 million people for rubber

April 8, 2008 @ 11:46 pm | Comment

Yawn, ferin is back, and he’s double posting, perhaps using emphasis to make up for his weak points.
Met any Native Americans eager to move to China, Ferin? Cuz I know a few Tibetans glad to have left the jurisdiction of the PRC.

April 9, 2008 @ 5:23 am | Comment

True Americans did a much much better job in making sense of its bloody past, which has been a taboo in our glorious 5000 year history. Revising only made under the government table. It would sound like a joke to have a truly open rethinking and reviewing China’s civil war and minority issues and 1966 and 1989. Yeah CCP never went wrong. CCP only stragetizes – regime is the ultimate goal, and sovereignty and nationalism are the means. (From here on, in responding to someone’s previous concern of Aldorf’s popularity in China, however Machiavellianism the Party is, officially appraising Hitler would be a slap on its “historic role of defending Japanese militarism invasion”, which is, more than good for propoganda use)

But CCP did compensate, in its own way, by pouring billions on revitalizing temples from ruins and infrastructuring from no man’s land, by repressing Han citizens from taking any actions against minority radicals (the same case as for Huis in Xijiang and every other major city) and finally sending tanks in when the flame is on. Bold actions! But simply calling it genocide is even bolder.

April 9, 2008 @ 10:11 am | Comment

And for Chinese bloggers who upset by CNN being so CNN, I would truly believe that a large portion of them are not party advocates. Many of them are overseas students who realized they were brainwashed and hold CNNs as, maybe not the last, but one of the straws. Party and party advocates are EXTREMELY materialistically busy making money. Too busy for them to care about Westerners freeing Tibet. CCP’s history textbook wiped off almost everything about Tibet. Too bad for the bloggers their argumentations often lost the stand and lead to an emotional burst.

And hopefully Free Tibet advocates could be willing to get a better understanding of TIBET before showing their emotional admiration or hatred or simply ripping off the torch.

By the way, anyone have the English version of Wang’s Funérailles célestes: le destin du Tibet? I like many of his ideas. Very inspiring. Good reading materials for FT advocates if they really want to do something good for Tibetans.

April 9, 2008 @ 10:15 am | Comment

Cuz I know a few Tibetans glad to have left the jurisdiction of the PRC.

You mean Americans of Tibetan descent?

Lets stop with the dumb anecdotes please, unless you want to give names so that they can be verified.

April 9, 2008 @ 10:21 am | Comment

I happen to live in a US city with a large Tibetan refugee community. I would prefer not to give names, however, for obvious reasons.

April 9, 2008 @ 12:19 pm | Comment

You ask since when is the fact that someone is happy news. Maybe that is the news. This Tibetan is actually happy. The others….

April 9, 2008 @ 2:24 pm | Comment

“””””Not materialistic enough to kill 20 million people for rubber””””””

So you think the CCP and its followers are not materialistic enough to kill 20 million for something like rubber?

Are you sure? You mean rubber specifically? And I guess this would depend on whether or not we accept the CCPs evil excuses for killing 50- 80 million CHINESE PEOPLE.

The CCPs ideology IS materialism, also the CCP kills Chinese people and lies to them to preserve itself. Is that better than killing for rubber?

Hey, Ferin, I am not accusing you. I really think the CCP is bad, and I feel bad for Chinese people who think the CCP is telling the truth and doing good things for the people when it is not.

April 9, 2008 @ 2:37 pm | Comment

ha ha Thomas ….. ha.

April 9, 2008 @ 2:39 pm | Comment

This is what you said:

Chinese people have “different culture” ei some of them are EXTREMELY materialistic…

No, Chinese people are not materialistic enough to kill 20 million people for rubber. Not even the CCP does that now, Mao Zedong just let millions and millions starve to death because he was incompetent.

But Canada, on the other hand, is content to wipe out an entire race of people to build a society that basically thrives on hedonism.

April 9, 2008 @ 10:43 pm | Comment

“Yawn, ferin is back, and he’s double posting, perhaps using emphasis to make up for his weak points.
Met any Native Americans eager to move to China, Ferin? Cuz I know a few Tibetans glad to have left the jurisdiction of the PRC.”

Good point, Kevin! Of course, Ferin has no answer other than asking you to give names. Actually, there is one person from the USA calling himself an “exile” eager to move to China, but he’s not a Native American. I’m talking about CCTV’s most popular clown Phil Cunningham. Ferin, on the other side, happily lives in the evil US of A, like most Anti-America posters commenting on this site.

April 10, 2008 @ 1:56 am | Comment

Kinda like how you happily bought a wife from the evil PR of C.

April 10, 2008 @ 8:40 am | Comment