Many foreigners find China “enchanting”:

“My reminiscence: For such a lovely river, its name was mystifying—’Cape Fear’—and that the only thing to FEAR on those enchanted Summer nights was that the magic would end…and REALITY would come crashing in….”

REALITY = Chinese nationalism/violent, bloody history.

April 17, 2008 @ 11:13 pm | Comment

The personal attack on Wang is certainly very wrong. She surely have her right to her opinion. She

The immaturity of public when patriotism is in doubt is not limited to Chinese. Do you remember Dixie chicks? Her CD was banned from radio station, destroyed publicly for her criticism on war, i.e., to invade another country.

Chinese has a strong sense of vicitimhood. Recent westerm media report certainly confirmed their feeling. Psychologically many people are angry at main stream media, but can not do anything about it. Wang’s association with Tibet independence makes her an easy target.

April 17, 2008 @ 11:16 pm | Comment

I’m with you on this one 100%, Richard. Growing up in Quebec has given me a profound distaste for this sort of nationalist nonsense and witch-hunting. Regardless of the context, it’s always scary to see someone get so ostracized/threatened for the sole reason of having their own opinion which deviates from the mob-accepted ‘truth’.

Let’s crucify the peacemakers, what a great idea! That will sort everything out. I don’t (Heart) blind nationalism, that’s for sure.

April 17, 2008 @ 11:16 pm | Comment

One of the interesting dimension of Chinese mob psychology is immaturity.

One theme of mind control techniques is to induce regression in the subject, i.e., revert the subject to a childlike state to make the subject more subject to mind control.

The CIA’s experiments in mind control grew out of studies of returning American POWs from the Korean War.

April 17, 2008 @ 11:18 pm | Comment

hey bob
I’ve seen the same msg posed by you on comment section of other blogs. You should get a life or write something intelligent. Peace out!

April 17, 2008 @ 11:22 pm | Comment

BOB, you’re a fucking retard. Try not to get ahead of yourself.

April 17, 2008 @ 11:35 pm | Comment

The immaturity of public when patriotism is in doubt is not limited to Chinese. Do you remember Dixie chicks?

What happened to the was also wrong. But there is a fundamental difference: the Dixie chicks were celebrities before their lead singer made her remark a concert in Britain, just prior to the invasion. If you are a celebrity, sometimes publicity can turn against you in unfortunate ways, especially in times of war.

The case of Ms. Wang is entirely different. She is a just a private individual, who wanted to initiate a dialog, because of this she and her family was singled out for persecution. This is an element of brainwashing, as defined by OED.

The systematic and often forcible elimination from a person’s mind of all established ideas, esp. political ones, so that another set of ideas may take their place; this process regarded as the kind of coercive conversion practised by certain totalitarian states on political dissidents.

April 17, 2008 @ 11:49 pm | Comment

Oh, I have been aware of this incident for a while, but I didn’t realize that this piece of news was carried in the NYT. If this stays in public attention, the implications are huge. Make no mistake about it.

April 17, 2008 @ 11:56 pm | Comment

One of those unforgettable moments in recent Chinese history is when the anti-Japanese mob in Shanghai surrounded that girl in her Japanese-made car and beat the car up while degrading her.
At some point, those who engage in these sorts of actions (and it is certainly not everyone, but far too many) will need to learn that “loving China” is not simply harassing, threatening, and silencing those who do not accord with their officially-cultivated image of “Chinese.”

April 18, 2008 @ 12:04 am | Comment

Excellent comment Richard. Your conviction shines through.

In 1989 there were a lot of mainland Chinese students at the university in my hometown in America. 6/4/1989 caused me to get involved with a lot of those students who protested China’s killing action of those few days in Beijing. What is relevant about that to the present day protest of the current group of Chinese students is that those students in June 1989 were being contacted by the Chinese government’s student minders in the U.S. I have no doubt that the current Chinese student protests were at least encouraged by Chinese government men/woman if not supported and somewhat directed.

What is ironic and probably not even considered by those Chinese students is that they were allowed to protest in the US, whereas I doubt very much several hundred foreign students would be allow to demonstrate and protest on university campuses in China if the protest was against something the Chinese government favored even protest about anything at all.

Richard and others have it right, a lot of immature reaction, but I really have no doubt the Party and /or government was behind the protest in some way.

April 18, 2008 @ 12:07 am | Comment

When Tibetan mobs burned and looted and murdered Han shopkeepers in a bloodthirsty frenzy, it’s no herd mentality and it’s justice rightfully done due to historical grievances. When American mobs burned CDs of Dixie Chicks and threatened them with their lives, it’s no herd mentality and it’s patriotism rightfully dispensed. When Chinese netizens voiced their strongest condemnation on the ulterior motives behind the recent pro-Tibet or anti-China remarks from Mr. Cafferty and Ms. Wang, it IS herd mentality and nationalism in its ugliest form. Unbelievable.

April 18, 2008 @ 12:20 am | Comment

Richard, good post,

Now do you see why I mention Falun Gong a lot? The regime has enough mind control and has spread the religion of communism so thoroughly that it can mobilise the masses to violently enforce the party line and that is what the party’s plan is, to mobilize and control the masses in patriotic terrorism.

The cultural revolution is certainly NOT OVER I am afraid to say, now that it is coming to light because of recent events that are being treated news worthy enough to talk about, things will hopefully take their natural course and be sorted out in the end.

I agree with you Richard that the Chinese people are so much better than this, they really are, all they have to do is realize it.

April 18, 2008 @ 12:22 am | Comment

@Steve
“The immaturity of public when patriotism is in doubt is not limited to Chinese. Do you remember Dixie chicks? Her CD was banned from radio station, destroyed publicly for her criticism on war, i.e., to invade another country. ”
I agree that immaturity is not limited to Mainland Chinese, but the Dixie Chicks are a really bad example. They weren’t banned, they just pissed off their fan base by expressing politically disagreeable views, and the fans stopped consuming their product, so radio stations stopped carrying it. There was nothing ‘wrong’ about it.

Better comparisons in the western world might be some of the nationalist anti-immigration skinhead outfits in England in the 80s, or the guys who cruise around Tokyo in vans to protest things they see as unpatriotic, like this Yasukuni Shrine documentary that’s just come out.

April 18, 2008 @ 12:22 am | Comment

This Tibet, Uighur, Olympic torch run stuff is really doing the world a great favour: the opportunity to really know and understand what China and Chinese are about. What they expect of us. What they are really like in various situations. How they think. How they come to conclusions. What their values are. What their priorities are. Now that we are equipped with the real first hand observation knowledge – of course, they will continue to scream that westerners can never understand them – we are now much better equipped to deal with China, and CHinese amongst us.

It is great we have this opportunity, and the medium – internet, blog, posting, etc. – to see what China and Chinese are really like. China is not a mystery any more.

April 18, 2008 @ 12:43 am | Comment

@Bill

Do not judge 1.3M just through some outrageous individuals.

May I remind you that Ms Wang is also Chinese?

April 18, 2008 @ 12:48 am | Comment

Actually you will never understand China because your religious intolerance, racial bigotry, and perhaps stupidity prevent you from seeing anything outside of what you want to see.

Go ahead and force all Chinese people to be nationalists, that’ll be a great thing for you I’m sure.

April 18, 2008 @ 12:51 am | Comment

Actually, most Iraq War supporters’ responses to the Dixie Chicks’ anti-Bush comments were a really good example of a mature response to public statements they didn’t like. There were a few death threats, and a few angry protests, but for the most part people just stopped buying Dixie Chicks CDs. This should be compared to the Cafferty comments. Not everybody has to like or agree with what he said, or even continue to listen to him. Just stop watching CNN.

April 18, 2008 @ 1:00 am | Comment

Poor Chinese, they are all “forced to be nationalists” by those racist foreigners…

April 18, 2008 @ 1:01 am | Comment

@E

Is dat sum sarcasm?

lol, the funny thing is that I can’t actually tell…

April 18, 2008 @ 1:02 am | Comment

Ferin, who are you talking to?

Kevin, Pete, etc. – thanks for the excellent comments. I so agree.

April 18, 2008 @ 1:05 am | Comment

@Some guy

Its sarcasm alright.. Chinese people are being “forced to be nationalists” by foreigners (according to ferin) in the same way Germans were “forced to be nationalists” because of the Treaty of Versailles which “victimized” Germans which was of course masterminded by the Jews who wanted to keep Germany down.

See any similarities?

April 18, 2008 @ 1:07 am | Comment

It is great we have this opportunity, and the medium – internet, blog, posting, etc. – to see what China and Chinese are really like.

Poor Chinese, they are all “forced to be nationalists” by those racist foreigners…

Oh those poor white foreigners, they get a bad rap even though they never make mistakes and are never racist.

April 18, 2008 @ 1:08 am | Comment

See any similarities?

Oh yes, lets compare China to Nazi Germany once again because you’re a retard.

There’s NOTHING about China now or at any point in time that is or was like Nazi Germany, you brainless fuckwit.

April 18, 2008 @ 1:13 am | Comment

We need more people like Grace Wang to get a dialogue started here in the US. These chinese students have some issues and points of view that should be expressed. The Torch Relay protests are insulting and unproductive. Listening to these chinese students say their point of view and then getting them to listen to the Tibetans in exile and also peole of the west explain another view of history would go a lot farther to improving things for tibetan than a boycott. In fact the CCP would be concerned if the chinese students did start participating in an exchange with the western media, and the tibetans. More might wonder about their governments policy in Tibet.

April 18, 2008 @ 1:14 am | Comment

@richard
“Ferin, who are you talking to?”

I think our ferin is right now in one of his “ferin modes”

Like a bull crashing on the fighting arena. 😉

April 18, 2008 @ 1:17 am | Comment

What’s really sad and disgusting is white people using their previous human rights abuses as political and economic leverage.

As if they didn’t get enough joy and profit out of gassing Jews and liquidating entire continents of people.

If the fenqing morons wanted to drag you through their own feces I guess they’ve succeeded, congrats, a lot of them look like total douches now.

April 18, 2008 @ 1:20 am | Comment

Who need to grow up? I think it is NYT. Let the media distortion go on!
How representative those violent comments are? Are they just some emotional rants? or they represent the real motivations of committing a serious crime against Ms. Wang? Don’t you see the black, Jews, Asians, Latinos and gays are being insulted every single day on American forums? I personally don’t take those seriously, and apparently NYT think it is ordinary and worthless to report too! But, but NYT think the similar comments against Ms. Wang shall become an extraordinary story! They knew Richard just love to read it!!!
How come NYT has never tried to write an objective coverage on the idiot CNN’s commentator. We all say CCTV is a garbage. But I have never seen any host or guest in its program cursing American or US government with insulting words like that.
Again this is just one of many many reports, stories, and commentaries that has been used to fit the western portrait of ordinary Chinese people by the western media. I hope there is a better word to describe this instead hypocrisy.
Don’t you all realize this is where Westerners and Chinese start to distrust each other? After reading and listening stories like this for years, is it surprising that we are thinking the opposite way almost constantly?

By the way, I have no problem with Ms. Wang’s freedom of speech, and I oppose any insulting comments again her. But I do have problem with NYT’s reporting style. Very ill!

April 18, 2008 @ 1:23 am | Comment

>As if they didn’t get enough joy and profit out of gassing Jews and liquidating entire continents of people.

You can’t say things like this and expect people to take you seriously. I’m not suggesting that anyone should take ME seriously either, but this is some awesome trolling. 9/10

April 18, 2008 @ 1:23 am | Comment

ferin, you know I give you a lot of latitude here, just as I give your twin brother nanhe. But can you please stop being an asshole? You are not stupid. Why are you pretending to be?

April 18, 2008 @ 1:24 am | Comment

@ferin
Yes, my country greatly profited from being invaded and raped by Germany. Idiot.

April 18, 2008 @ 1:27 am | Comment

I was thinking about an entry on this myself – richard got there first, though.

Yes, this really takes the biscuit. I do fear that the current younger generation(s) in China are too angry and irrational when it comes to this sort of thing. To make death threats against someone because they don’t follow the majority is just ludicrous. This really, really does not do any good for China. As I said on the globalvoices for this, currently China is rising as a perceived “top threat” in global opinion, though mostly on trade and the environment – human rights to a lesser extent. But if we see this sort of thing happening time and time again, where Chinese harrass others just because of their views (especially if in other countries), then that’s going to shift to a threat on security, which will lead to China’s isolation.

It has been suggested that the FBI will look into this matter, as some college students may have (from a legal POV) been inciting others. If true I hope they do investigate as full as possible, as even if some of them may regret what they did in retrospect they knew full well what would happen if they published contact details for her and her family.

I also hope that the Chinese authorities make it plain that they won’t allow for any reprisals. If they try to sit on the fence then that will be yet another example of their moral bankruptcy.

April 18, 2008 @ 1:28 am | Comment

I wouldn’t be surprised if there were a lot of bored trolls like nanhe making 90% of those death threats in feigned broken English.

April 18, 2008 @ 1:32 am | Comment

Yes, my country greatly profited from being invaded and raped by Germany. Idiot.

Oh please. Here you are trying to extract the last possible shreds of political and economic leverage from European atrocities and now you’re pulling the victim card?

April 18, 2008 @ 1:34 am | Comment

Hey, the victim card is trendy these days. Ask any black man (slavery), white man (affirmative action), Chinaman (opium wars, etc), Korean (Japanese occupation, etc). Everyone is doing it, why can’t E?

April 18, 2008 @ 1:39 am | Comment

This is not an isolated incident, unfortunately. I know of a professor threatened with death for holding a discussion on Tibet. The respondents on the listserv added “support!” (an awkward English version of the Chinese “ding!”)
While there are many Chinese students opposed to this sort of thing, they also happen to be those generally uninvolved in the Chinese Student Associations’ listservs, which take the idea of “preaching to the choir” to whole new levels. When I signed up for my university’s Chinese student association forum, I had to agree to a number of conditions, including things like “do not make comments that tarnish the motherland’s socialist system,” “do not make inflammatory comments that encourage splittism.” It’s unfortunate that such limitations and exclusions are perpetuated even outside of China, and this is something that I hope can change through more liberal-minded students’ efforts.

April 18, 2008 @ 1:39 am | Comment

He kinda steps out of his bounds. It’s like a black man going to China and blaming his problems on the white man, and then going on an ahistorical, ignorant rant on an internet forum.

April 18, 2008 @ 1:42 am | Comment

This is not an isolated incident, unfortunately. I know of a professor threatened with death for holding a discussion on Tibet.

They should start a police investigation.

April 18, 2008 @ 1:46 am | Comment

By the way, does anyone know where the translation “splittism” comes from? You would have thought “seperatism” sounds more natural and appropriate. I suppose it’s pretty-well established now, a lot like “turmoil” became after that unforunate 6.4 business.

April 18, 2008 @ 1:47 am | Comment

Grace Wang, dialog and the road map to independence

The story of Grace Wang illustrates the need for diverse media in China. Now only the government and the bloggers have a say. People are easily manipulated to overreact to trivial incidents.

On the other hand, the young woman is not the only person who thinks that a dialog with the Dalai Lama can solve the Tibetan problem. People in the West often accuse China for not entering a dialog even though the Dalai has given up independence and is only seeking a middle way.

The Dalai does not like to talk about the details of his
middle way. The Western media fail again. They do not bother to find out what this middle way is. Thankfully, Robert Thurman, a close friend of the Dalai and the person who coined the phrase ”baby seals” to describe the Tibetans, has an article on Newsweek Magazine:

http://www.newsweek.com/id/129619

He tells us what the middle way is:

First, China must double the size of Tibet. The
areas that have seen Tibetan inhabitants should be returned to Tibet, even though the majorities of the populations in these areas are Hui and Han, not Tibetan.

Second, expel the large colonies of Han Chinese
in these areas. Never mind that people have the right
to live everywhere in their own country.

Third, remove the People’s Liberation Army from the the enlarged Tibet. Tibet will be a land of peace, as the Dalai often said.

After these steps are completed, China will hold an internationally monitored plebiscite to determine the permanent future status of Tibet.

If the Western media care to expose these demands
in the Dalai’s pursuit of the middle way, instead of repeating his empty talk of seeking genuine autonomy, people like Grace will see that his middle way is just a road map to independence. They
will understand why China does not want t to enter
a dialog with him to discuss these terms.

April 18, 2008 @ 1:48 am | Comment

@ferin

There’s NOTHING about China now or at any point in time that is or was like Nazi Germany, you brainless fuckwit.

Not even the Blue Shirts movement? Or the Cultural Revolution?

April 18, 2008 @ 1:51 am | Comment

The Cultural Revolution and the Holocaust are only similar in the fact that they killed around 11 million people.

It takes different precedents to lead up to one or the other. I’d say Nazi Germany and Mao’s CCP are about equally evil. How is it helpful to bring that into this discussion?

Here I’ll play it out for you:

W: CHINA IS NAZI GERMANY
E: BAD WEST MEDIA
W: CHINA IS NAZI GERMANY
E: BAD WEST MEDIA
W: CHINA IS NAZI GERMANY
E: BAD WEST MEDIA

Gratifying.

April 18, 2008 @ 1:59 am | Comment

Ferin, please stop, okay. You’ve already derailed the thread. I am requesting politely that you don’t force me to ban you again.

April 18, 2008 @ 2:04 am | Comment

Hey cheer up Grace Wong, its easy to get along with commie masses, just kill lots of people and lie gleefully through your teeth, the more you lie, the more patriotic you will prove yourself to be. If she was in China, she wouls spend some time in a transformation camp and come out a filthy harmonious spychopath, a true patriot, like these harmonious North Koreans who live their whole lives to worship Kim Jong and Hu Jintao, wow, how could the Chinese civilizations be transformed like this? It really is depressing but I know whats gonna happen, the worlds people will give their support to the dissidents and the dissidents will one day have the freedom to finally speak, and truth will be more prevalent in all societies…

http://tinyurl.com/5z5uu8

Hu Jintao visits North Koreans, CRAZY! it might look festive and nice. They’d bring polpot regime bck if they could…

Please excuse me if I sound angry, I am moody today…

April 18, 2008 @ 2:05 am | Comment

Hi all,
first of all I – a laowei – love China and Chinese people, but both sides in general need to learn some important things about each others values, if we are interested in a dialogue:

The Chinese for example need to learn that there is such thing as positive critics. Criticising does not always mean, you despise the thing you criticise, but you love it and want it to become better. It is a sign you actually care.

Second, there are more that two sides: if for example an American criticises the Chinese army killing Tibetan monks, it does not mean that by saying this the US is being in Iraq torturing is just and right, because he could mean that actually both are wrong and need to be criticised!

Thx for reading and good luck Grace Wang.

PS: Saying we will never ever understand Chinese totally denies any possibility of a dialogue.

April 18, 2008 @ 2:08 am | Comment

Some fascinating stuff written by one of Wang’s dorm mates, some of which was written before the whole Tibet brouhaha:

http://happinessguaranteed.blogspot.com/

I would say she is a just a weirdo who epitomizes marvellously her likes in the Free Tibet movement. She may need some help.

NYT let us down again. Why didn’t they dig just a little deeper?

Well, I agree personal attacks on her are wrong, because, in addition to certain laws and principles blahblahblah, you simply should not take a psycho so seriously.

April 18, 2008 @ 2:12 am | Comment

I’m sure she isn’t the first Chinese person to be in the Free Tibet movement either, morons come from all over the world.

April 18, 2008 @ 2:15 am | Comment

So a bunch of guys on the internet made some repugnant threats and all of a sudden a nation of 1.3 billion people has “willingly surrender its critical faculties”. I don’t know, that sounds like a bit of a stretch to me. Not that I’m condoning extreme nationalists, but I think one should take internet comments with a grain of salt. China has its fair share of nationalists, but not particularly more then many other countries. In any case I just want to mention that saying a country needs to “grow up” or else it “will be doomed to wallow in impotent and pointless rage” primarily because of internet comments probably comes off as bit condescending. There’s some truth in that comment but nonetheless I think it may appear to the average Chinese person rightfully or not, as foreigners dismissing the opinions of Chinese as irrationally nationalistic.

April 18, 2008 @ 2:21 am | Comment

Given the hysterical reactions from many (but not all) Chinese, I think we have good reason to be condescending. Maturity has not really been the order of the day.

April 18, 2008 @ 2:25 am | Comment

Contemptible, like confusing the Nepalese police for Chinese? Calls for Olympic Boycotts? The Free Tibet movement in general?

A lot of people have been stupid.

April 18, 2008 @ 2:28 am | Comment

Well, I think to establish dialogue and understanding with the opinions of the vast majority of Chinese, we should not give too much credence to the small minority that are prone to idiotic posturing.

April 18, 2008 @ 2:32 am | Comment

>confusing the Nepalese police for Chinese?

Splitting hairs. Let’s face it, Nepal is practically a Chinese-ruled territory anyway, like Burma. The Katmandu embassy was directing police operations against peaceful protests. Nothing sinister about that?

>Calls for Olympic Boycotts?

A bit late at this point I think. Personally I don’t think the international community should have given them the bloody thing at all in the first place.

>The Free Tibet movement in general?

I’ll be the first to agree that a lot of Free Tibet activists don’t have the foggiest about what they’re actually supporting, but then again that’s true for the fenqing side of the debate as well. I don’t see how it’s any fairer to tar the whole Free Tibet movement as stupid any more than it is fair to tar anyone who supports Tibet’s continued presence in the Chinese state as stupid.

April 18, 2008 @ 2:35 am | Comment

@ferin
“…morons come from all over the world”

You said it ferin…

April 18, 2008 @ 2:41 am | Comment

I think we can all agree that their are crazy people on both sides. However, just that I do not think that protesters who cannot even locate Tibet on a map are representative of the Free-Tibet movement I also think that we should be careful of equating China with rabid moronic extreme nationalists.

April 18, 2008 @ 2:45 am | Comment

She wanted to play politics. It backfired, simple as that.
She deserved this, in a way.

The outcome isn’t that bad, she now certainly has an easier path to greencard as a political refugee.

April 18, 2008 @ 2:57 am | Comment

@ferin

How is it helpful to bring that into this discussion?

Words fail me. Are you even interested in discussion?

@hualian

Well, I think to establish dialogue and understanding with the opinions of the vast majority of Chinese, we should not give too much credence to the small minority that are prone to idiotic posturing.

Well, apparently Wang was trying to establish a dialgue and she and her family go death threats because of that. If no clear stand is taken against this kind of behavior from the Chinese community, what is the hope for a dialogue? This is national news now and potentially very damaging for associations like the Duke Chinese Students and Scholars Association. Do not underestimate the potential fallout of this incident.

April 18, 2008 @ 3:00 am | Comment

Well I personally support Ms. Wang’s attempts, but I fail to see the reasoning behind some sort of collective responsibility on behalf of a Chinese community of 1.3 billion many of whom may have little to do with both Ms. Wang and the crazy nationalists. Like I said, I do think its detrimental for any sort of dialogue if we reduce any side as somehow not “equal” (For the lack of a better word). That goes for reducing Chinese opinion to rabid irrational nationalism or similarly claiming some sort of wide spread conspiracy against China.

April 18, 2008 @ 3:22 am | Comment

Surely, extreme nationalism expressed through the anonymity of the internet is an important issue for China, and for many other countries as well. But it isn’t nearly China’s greatest problem or for that matter have the capability of ensuring that China will be “doomed to wallow in impotent and pointless rage.” China may very well falter on its path to modernity, (I hope not) but I personally will look towards some sort of economic or environmental disaster.

April 18, 2008 @ 3:31 am | Comment

“There are a few students that are very angry at her,” she said, “but there are many others who try to protect her, try to speak for her. Actually, the majority didn’t think she did so wrong to be treated like that.”

April 18, 2008 @ 3:49 am | Comment

@STQ
“She wanted to play politics. It backfired, simple as that. She deserved this, in a way.”

She wanted to play a human being (homo sapiens sapiens). It backfired on the ones who menaced her. She deserves far more respect than you seem to give to her.

April 18, 2008 @ 4:07 am | Comment

Yes, I agree with ecodelta that Ms. Wang did nothing wrong. I also have no respect for the kinds of people who harassed Ms. Wang, who hide behind the internet to express extreme nationalism and I’m sure the vast majority of people Chinese or not Chinese will agree.

April 18, 2008 @ 4:20 am | Comment

Actually on second thought, I do not think I have the right to speak for everybody Chinese or non-Chinese, but as an individual I have no respect for those kinds of people.

April 18, 2008 @ 4:26 am | Comment

There’s a horrible video about this affair (in chinese):
http://tinyurl.com/6z2vw7
The page also features a screen shot from the People’s Daily website calling this young lady the “ugliest overseas student.” Never before have I been so pessimistic about the direction in which Chinese society is moving. As someone whose life is completely intertwined with China, it’s really quite depressing.

April 18, 2008 @ 4:39 am | Comment

Well, certainly Ms. Wang deserved to be treated better and it is outrageous that some mobs have targeted her family in China. However, that is not something only happening in childish China. For example, 3 years ago, a student received death threats and went into hiding after calling Pat Tillman an “idiot.”

As to Ms. Wang, I was curious why she had to write “Free Tibet, Save Tibet” in order to be a peace maker? Does China have to send North Korea a few missiles in order to host the six party talks?

April 18, 2008 @ 4:46 am | Comment

I don’t know Kevin the “People’s Daily” probably has said much worst things then that so I’m surprised you’d be the most pessimistic now. As for the video, I’m weary of using an internet video to judge the direction of Chinese society. It is a problem though I do agree, it would be irresponsible to ignore that there are extreme nationalists in China using the internet as a cover and medium to express their views. But I don’t think we should exaggerate their significance. There are a lot of things in China to be pessimistic about, internet thugs probably are a little ways down the list.

April 18, 2008 @ 4:50 am | Comment

“Actually on second thought, I do not think I have the right to speak for everybody Chinese or non-Chinese, but as an individual I have no respect for those kinds of people.”

So you have no respect for “everybody Chinese or non-Chinese”? Dear hualian, I really hope you’ll stay around, we are going to have a lot of fun with you.

April 18, 2008 @ 4:55 am | Comment

Regardless of their views on Tibet, ordinary decent Chinese netizens ought to condemn the behaviour of the fenqing. If they keep silent, they will have no right to complain if the rest of the world tars all Chinese netizens with the same brush.

April 18, 2008 @ 4:56 am | Comment

haha I’m sorry mor I didn’t notice that it actually sounded a little odd. I mean to say I don’t have respect for extreme nationalists on the internet.

April 18, 2008 @ 4:57 am | Comment

Well Peter, I am thinking of the idea of collective responsibility. In the sense that we seem to link ourselves and others with arbitrary groups. Like, say the Chinese netizens should be responsible for what the fenqin say on the net simply because they hold the same passport. Or how many Chinese think that events like the attack on the torch in Paris are somehow related to the French corporation of Carrefour. I’m not saying that I don’t make these links, but if you think about it, many of these links are actually rather arbitrary or have little to do with the issue at hand. I’m only thinking about it though, but I do find it quite interesting.

April 18, 2008 @ 5:06 am | Comment

CLC
“As to Ms. Wang, I was curious why she had to write “Free Tibet, Save Tibet” in order to be a peace maker? Does China have to send North Korea a few missiles in order to host the six party talks?”

Actually she might has used one of the techniques used in psychology: to confront people from both side against that what make them overreact strongly.

If you equate an statement with missiles…. man! you have a problem.

April 18, 2008 @ 5:08 am | Comment

On the issue of the Carrefour situation, I doubt it would have much of an effect and is in all likelihood organized by a small minority. But yet here I am talking about it. I guess this explains our fascination with whats louder and more provocative such as the crazy nationalists on the internet.

April 18, 2008 @ 5:11 am | Comment

@hualian

It did sound a little odd, didn’t it? Actually, I totally agree with you. And I really think we are going to have a lot of fun together.

April 18, 2008 @ 5:12 am | Comment

Again, the Western mainstream media choose to report a LONELY voice while ignoring the outrage expressed by the overwhelming majority of the oversea Chinese communities, only because that the lonely voice fits you Westerner’s believes. There were mass protests in Sydney, Melbourne, Ottawa and Seattle last week, did you hear a single word about those events in your mainstream media?

On April 19, tens of thousands of Chinese students will be marching on the streets of Paris, Berlin, London, LA and New York city, the Dalai Lama will be greeted with a “sea of red” in U of Michigan in Ann Arbor. Are we going to hear about that in the press?

What’s happening is not something you can whitewash or dismiss by using the word “nationalism.” I’ve never seen anything like it in my entire life. The Western media has been getting away with their biased reports for too long. This time, they’ve crossed that red line in the Chinese psyche. Because this time, they are trying to paint black as white. Even today, some reporters are still using the terms “peaceful protest” and “bloody crackdown.” Un-f@#$$king-believable!

For those who are genuinely concerned about human rights in China, please put yourself in Chinese people’s shoes. Say you have been working hard, you are making it the old-fashioned way, and you throw a party for everybody to show what you’ve achieved. How would you feel if some hypocrites come to your party, slap your in the face and tell the guests that your home sucks?

The Chinese are too naive. There are two worlds, and they have different dreams. Can’t you tell by the stark contrast in the reception of the Olympic torch? In one world, it was greeted with hypocrisy, jealousy, ill will and violence. In the other world, it was greeted with support, enthusiasm, respect and culture. The irony in this is that the world that invented the ideal is trashing it, while the other world is embracing it. It makes one wonder, which world is more civilized?

April 18, 2008 @ 5:15 am | Comment

@AC

For those who are genuinely concerned about human rights in China, please put yourself in Chinese people’s shoes. Say you have been working hard, you are making it the old-fashioned way, and you throw a party for everybody to show what you’ve achieved.

Your remark, in a nutshell, show how you are politicizing the Olympics. The Olympic games are not a private party, to which you invite guests to flaunt your wealth, it’s a sport’s competition.

April 18, 2008 @ 5:32 am | Comment

AC, I do agree that recent events and coverage served to promote tremendous solidarity among Chinese around the world, but its my personal opinion that this is also a fleeting occurance. As soon as August 25th roles around, people will get back to their daily lives. I mean the Olympics may come and go but the daily relationship between the Chinese people and their government good or bad will last far longer. If economic growth is not continued no amount of Olympic induced support will be able to compensate. Come to think of it, let’s say hypothetically that there is a Shanghai 2020 or Guangzhou 2020 Olympics, will the average Chinese attach as much importance? I don’t know the answer but I think its an interesting question to ask.

April 18, 2008 @ 5:35 am | Comment

@Hualian

I am thinking of the idea of collective responsibility. In the sense that we seem to link ourselves and others with arbitrary groups. Like, say the Chinese netizens should be responsible for what the fenqin say on the net simply because they hold the same passport.

There is no collective responsibility here. But if not enough voices are heard from the Chinese community that condemn the persecution of Wang, that will be an image problem for the Chinese community. Simple as that. People who are aware of the incident will be reluctant to interact with Chinese student’s associations, lest they come into the line of fire. And all these demonstrations that AC is touting look like endorsing they idea that there is only one point of view that is permissible in the Chinese community. That is not the way you establish dialogue.

Furthermore, if the harassment of Wang continues on websites operating in mainland China, where the internet is heavily policed, we can interpret that as connivance on the part of the PRC government. That is a huge image problem for China.

April 18, 2008 @ 5:42 am | Comment

Actually she might has used one of the techniques used in psychology: to confront people from both side against that what make them overreact strongly.

She could have also hold a banner “Tibet was, is and will be part of China.” That will make her a even better referee.

you equate an statement with missiles

To paraphrase CNN-Cafferty statement, I apologize that you read my words that way.

April 18, 2008 @ 5:44 am | Comment

AC, your comment has some good food for thought. I for one fully support the right of Chinese students to demonstrate and voice their beliefs in Europe/North America. If I don’t agree with them, that’s my problem- they can protest peacefully as long as no laws are broken (like threatening people, for instance).

I just find it comical that the very tenets that have so many people in a rage regarding “Western” media and opinion ( basic freedom of expression which, yes, includes the freedom to say stupid things and voice uninformed opinions, you’ll find quite a few of those on CNN) are the ones that allow for these sort of protests in the first place.

Rail against the “West” by taking advantage of its political freedoms? That’s what I call having your mantou and eating it too.

I do think, however, that your “two worlds” dichotomy is a bit far-fetched. One of ill will, jealousy and violence, while the other is enthusiasm, respect and culture? Give me a break. It’s all one world- a world where profit tops freedom, coercion trumps consensus and ‘harmony’ wears riot gear. And don’t even pretend the current power-that-be in China are not major players in furthering this dynamic.

April 18, 2008 @ 5:47 am | Comment

Ughh, sorry! That last comment should read “posted by: PB”
I’m getting all confused with my acronyms. 🙂

April 18, 2008 @ 5:49 am | Comment

The page also features a screen shot from the People’s Daily website calling this young lady the “ugliest overseas student.”

It is actually a CCTV website sreenshot. I went to the site and could not find it, despite a search using either Ms. Wang’s Chinese name or the “ugliest overseas student. ” Apparently, it was pulled or someone pulled a prank on CCTV.

April 18, 2008 @ 5:56 am | Comment

hualian,

You are missing the point. The core issue here is not the Games. The issue here is that the Olympics is being used as a tool to attack China’s sovereignty in the name of human rights. It’s the attempt to separate the country that gets the people united. Get it?

April 18, 2008 @ 5:59 am | Comment

Amban you’re right that their might be a sort of a image problem, but I was more on the lines of thinking of why we identify people into these arbitrary groups anyways. Like some how the collective population of Muslims, be them of Turkic, Arabic or Iranian descent are responsible for fundamentalist Islam. Believe it or not I have seen that assumption numerous times. Back to the issue though, judging from both the accounts of people in mainland China, and from overseas Chinese themselves, I do think that it is true that a significant majority of Chinese support the Olympics. That does not mean however, that Chinese people agree with everything the CCP does, far from it. (Judging from the amount of protests that the central government admits to occuring each year). The Chinese do not have a unitary monolithic opinion on everything, a great majority probably agrees vaguely to the particular idea that Olympics should proceed, but that does not equal to unequivocal support for everything the CCP does. As for the theory that the CCP allows for the harrasement of Ms. Wang on the internet, that could be true, theres no way to confirm or deny it as of now, however, that is far from the worst that the CCP has done so personally I’m not sure how it’ll effect the image of the CCP.

April 18, 2008 @ 6:16 am | Comment

You could find a lot of idiotic comments on some of those Chinese forums — racism, bigotry… you name it — from some supposedly well educated people, just like you could find a lot of idiotic comments from supposedly “liberal” and “open-minded” people on some other sites (try the comment parts on Daily Kos).
The intellectual levels of this site seems to be above average, possibly because of the small number of people that are involved (no offense, Richard).
Through this whole Tibet/torch thing, I’ve discovered a new group of people that I would call “liberal racists”, who have a habit of reacting to anything about China with knee-jerk bashing.
There’s this HUGE outcry against MSM — about how bad the ABC Pennsylvania debate was last night on every liberal political website. Yet the same people don’t think twice about the information they get from the same MSM on China — it fits their story lines, it reinforces what they think of China, so it must be true and representative.
Have the NYT and NPR ever run a front page story on a Chinese who supports the government, or just supports the government in one aspect? Sure, they want to give the “minority” like Ms. Wang a voice. But mind you, anyone who supports the Chinese government is the minority and does not have a voice on MSM. When there came a backlash against the western MSM’s story line and the backlash was so strong that they had to give it some coverage, then these people must be categorically branded as being “brainwashed”.
Whoever posted Wang’s personal info was wrong. If any laws have been broken, then the police must investigate it.
Should Wang’s version about her motive and what had happened be taken without a grain of salt? Everyone can make up his/her own mind.
Is the story worth front page NYT? Maybe. But then so should a story about how thousands and thousands of Chinese of all ages, (not just the “angry youth”), of various backgrounds (from mainland, Hong Kong, Taiwan … including those who protested on Tiananmen square 19 years ago…) are all outraged by the biased media coverage.

April 18, 2008 @ 6:27 am | Comment

AC, that may be true, but I’m saying its my personal opinion that economic growth is by far the most important basis of support for the Chinese government. The lack of continued growth in the current form of Chinese government will overshadow all other sources of legitimacy. Due to the conscious decision of Deng Xiaoping to hitch government legitimacy to economic development in the aftermath of the ideologically driven disaster of the Cultural Revolution, territorial integrity will count for very little if economic disaster strikes. Given that however, I think it is very possible that increasing commercialization can continue to the point that it may stimulate political reform (sociologist Barrington Moore Jr. makes for this argument), making the government less reliant simply on growth.

April 18, 2008 @ 6:28 am | Comment

I just find it comical that the very tenets that have so many people in a rage regarding “Western” media and opinion ( basic freedom of expression which, yes, includes the freedom to say stupid things and voice uninformed opinions, you’ll find quite a few of those on CNN) are the ones that allow for these sort of protests in the first place.

It only feels comical when the actions of the Chinese students are against your believes.

Did I get you right, PB?

April 18, 2008 @ 6:45 am | Comment

@AC
“For those who are genuinely concerned about human rights in China, please put yourself in Chinese people’s shoes. Say you have been working hard, you are making it the old-fashioned way, and you throw a party for everybody to show what you’ve achieved. How would you feel if some hypocrites come to your party, slap your in the face and tell the guests that your home sucks?”

Your metaphor can be taken farther. Put yourself in the rest of the world’s shoes. We decide to put aside past grievances and let the PRC host games night. We show up at PRC’s house to find his dirty laundry strewn all over the lawn, and his stepson sobbing and chained in the crawl space.
And to be fair, most of us have been pretty diplomatic about this. The only major free world leader that has really come down hard on the PRC is Sarkozy. Everybody else, Fukuda, Bush, Brown, etc. have politely suggested dialogue with Tenzin Gyatso. I suspect that the majority of the free worlders who have bothered to think about it at all feel that the PRC letting Tibet go would be a good idea, but only a tiny minority expressed this by protesting (which, bear in mind, is a legal and acceptable way to express an opinion in most of the free world). Cafferty expressed his opinion too, which you may or may not like, but he only represents himself. What do your comments say to all those hundreds of millions of people who have not yet publicly condemned the PRC? Lump us all into one violent, jealous, malicious world at your own peril.

By the way, I think what PB is trying to point out is that it is ironic that the same freedom of expression that allows Mainland Chinese students to put on large demonstrations is also what allowed the Torch Relay Protests to occur, and those were what sparked the demonstrations in the first place.

April 18, 2008 @ 7:00 am | Comment

Ferin,

Thank you for throwing your “fucking retard” comment at me. I’m glad to see that you fit in with the crowd.

Actually, the comparison to 1930s Germany is not entirely without merit, as others have noted. In fact, one could write a lengthy analysis of all of the similarities. Basically, the 2 principal characteristics of these types of regimes are (1) ideology; and (2) fear. Here, it seems that China’s ideology following the collapse of Marxism is now race-based nationalism. Another important feature is the idea of a Conspiracy. Here, the Chinese seem to believe in an anti-Chinese conspiracy. I’d suggest reading “The Origins of Totalitarianism”. Peace, and have a Nice Day 🙂

April 18, 2008 @ 7:05 am | Comment

@NYT
Hhhhmmm… I would use a different approach. Instead of complaining about bias and demonstrating I would try to engage the MSM in their own terms

For example. Instead of demanding an apology from CNN, I would engage and provide them with material for news closer to the CH side.
Was Jin Jing affair a setup? Provide an interview with her. Let her describe with her own words what her feelings were, family background, why is she handicapped, Provide interviews with people who admire her now, etc.

The robotic goons? Make them more accessible to MSN, what is their family background, what makes them participate in the torch running, what sports they like, etc..

Brainwashing? Encourage interviews with normal CH people. Inside and outside CH through CH organizations. Lets CH people express their feelings about the OG and the criticism about CH

Try to accentuate the human side of story. Avoid political controversial issues if possible. Try not to overreact to blistering critics, keep calm,
AVOID VICTIMIZATION.

This MSM guys live from stories, they need stories every day, every minute. I you provide them with good enough material, you may be surprised how fast they take them. Besides, CH has enough clout to “convince” most MSN to at least take a chance to have a look a this material.

But direct confrontation? Us against them?…. that is not a good strategy, you are harming yourself and loosing an opportunity. It may be the right moment now

I could see today in CH news web sites (both in Chinese and English) the demand for CNN to apologize. I raised an eyebrow.

It is more intelligent to make them feel they should apologize, than to force them to apologize.

I still think that the CH side is still lacking in PR capabilities.

April 18, 2008 @ 7:06 am | Comment

AC,

No, not really. I stated that I think Chinese students have the right to demonstrate even if we don’t share the same opinions on various issues. Who am I to tell them they can’t voice their opinion peacefully?

I just think it’s funny that the freedom of expression in the “Western” media that is vilified as bias by some Chinese nationalists is the very same freedom that lets the Chinese students vent their concern on a public stage here. It’s like “You have no right to voice that opinion!! Apologize now!!” (while standing in a public square voicing own opinion that many don’t agree with- something that would probably entail a whisking away by an unmarked van back in the PRC).

I for one am happy that they are allowed to enjoy freedom of expression in places such as my home country of Canada. Heck, I’m so happy I’m even paying for their protection with my taxes.

Besides, I think the Chinese government and China in general get off pretty lightly in a lot of “Western” press- ever read what is said about our OWN governments? Oh boy. Not pretty.

That’s why I’m a bit confused about Chinese people feeling so singled out. I read lots of “Western” press that is contemptuous of a huge diversity of governments, including our own “dear leaders” (puke). Good press is shit-disturbing, and that’s the way some of us like it.

PS: For reference, “Western” media is WAY bigger than CNN, New York Times and Fox. I don’t even remember the last time I watched CNN- it’s like junk food for the brain.

April 18, 2008 @ 7:10 am | Comment

Richard,

I would say that you are a little bit naive here. Some netizn Chinese got emotional about something then you are depressed? Then I cannot see how you can be happy ever?

““There are a few students that are very angry at her,” she said, “but there are many others who try to protect her, try to speak for her. Actually, the majority didn’t think she did so wrong to be treated like that.””

This is another part of the article. There are always people willing to go extreme. Just look at the comments on your blog.

April 18, 2008 @ 7:12 am | Comment

race-based nationalism

Haha, race-based nationalism? The Northern and Southern Han aren’t even the same race.

China has a long, long way to go before it can be as racist as America or Europe.

No, Nazi Germany is completely different in every single imaginable way.

April 18, 2008 @ 7:28 am | Comment

Many foreigners find China “enchanting”. In some limited cases, the enchantment is enchantment with Chinese females, which is fine, except for the fact that it makes foreign males the subject of Chinese male, race-based nationalistic rage.

“My reminiscence: For such a lovely river, its name was mystifying— ‘Cape Fear’—and the only thing to fear on those enchanted Summer nights was that the magic would end, and REALITY would come crashing in.”

REALITY = Chinese nationalism/violent, bloody history. Inability to think.

April 18, 2008 @ 7:29 am | Comment

@BOB
Women are enchanting everywhere…. 😉

Foreign male competition? Just let go after those exotic foreign women… 😉

April 18, 2008 @ 7:36 am | Comment

which is fine, except for the fact that it makes foreign males the subject of Chinese male, race-based nationalistic rage.

Well, if you go to Russia and try to do the same they would probably kill you.

April 18, 2008 @ 7:50 am | Comment

I once had some nationalistic Iranian students in the U.S. threaten to kill me when I bumped one of them aside while running in a race.

They said to me: “I kill you. I kill you.”

April 18, 2008 @ 8:00 am | Comment

Then don’t bump them.

April 18, 2008 @ 8:06 am | Comment

Actually, in retrospect, the English of those Iranian blokes wasn’t very good. They may have been just trying to introduce themselves? Maybe they were brothers and their surname was “Killyu”?

April 18, 2008 @ 8:33 am | Comment

I do think their are some fundamental faults with a direct comparison of modern China to Nazi Germany of the 1930’s. The authoritarianism of China today still pales in comparison with the extreme totalitarian nature of Nazi Germany, and indeed with Maoist China some 30 years ago. A much closer comparison would be with South Korea in the 70’s which was also an authoritarian regime dependent upon economic growth for legitimacy. I suggest a reading of Barrington Moore Jr.’s “Social Origins of Dictatorship and Democracy” which although I do not think is completely applicable to every situation does have interesting things to say about the development of Communist, Fascist and Democratic manner of modernization. Fundamental to Fascist Germany and Japan, was the combination of a strong landlord class, with a economically significant but politically weak merchant class. The emergence of Communism in the case of China, Moore theorizes, is due to the weak standing of both landlord and merchant in traditional China, aggravated by the Japanese invasion. Chinese modernization thus came behest of a peasant revolution. To ensure the legitimacy of the CCP led government after the ideological disaster of the Cultural Revolution, Deng Xiaoping made the decision to promote the emergence of an urban bourgeoisie to encourage economic development. The rise of the urban bourgeoisie is the key to political reform along democratic lines I think. Since it is in the interest of business to limit the arbitrary power of government as to protect their assets. A powerful business class also has the resources to provide alternate centres of power outside of government. Modern China is thus not as prime for a peasant revolution along Maoist lines due to the increasing size and influence of the urban bourgeoisie while on the other hand it also does not have the characteristic union of a powerful landlord class dominating countryside with a weak merchant class as in Fascist nations in the past.

April 18, 2008 @ 8:38 am | Comment

I don’t see how you can “love” China and Chinese people by saying all the thing you say in this blog, anybody with any analytical skill can see that your opinion always opposes the interest of the Chinese people and I do not see how you really can bring yourself to write a title such as “No matter who’s right about Tibet, time to grow up. Please”, when you are the one being immature all the time. You can tell immaturity when you see it? Well, I can tell hypocrisy when I see it, and you are a hypocrite.

April 18, 2008 @ 9:08 am | Comment

Hualian,

You wrote: “The authoritarianism of China today still pales in comparison with the extreme totalitarian nature of Nazi Germany….”

I don’t entirely agree. In fact, politics in Germany in the early 1930s was in fact even milder in some respects than what we’re seeing now in China. The anti-Jewish (i.e., anti-foreign) mob violence of the Brown Shirts didn’t appear until somewhat late in the game in Germany. Prior to that time, many people (especially Jews) believed that if they just kept quiet and cooperated (appeasement) that everything would be fine. Unfortunately, race-based nationalism has its own internal dynamic. The Final Solution wasn’t introduced until 1941. Before that, Nazism was just basically anti-Jew, i.e., anti-foreign, believing in an “Int’l Jewish Conspiracy”, i.e., an “Int’l Foreign Conspiracy”. The mass mentality of the Germans was a reaction to perceived foreign humiliation during WWI, similar to China’s perceived humiliation at the hands of foreign imperialists.

Generally, fascism is the unity of monopoly capital and the state, as we’re seeing now in China.

A.F. Hayek in his book “The Road to Serfdom” recognizes a proclivity in former communists to seamlessly metamorphose into fascists. Apparently, such people have a certain authoritarian psychology.

April 18, 2008 @ 9:29 am | Comment

recognizes a proclivity in former communists to seamlessly metamorphose into fascists

Like Russia?

China isn’t a racially homogenous nation like Nazi Germany, nor do they believe in a dogmatic religion, nor have they ever had a history of “Han sponsored genocide”.

Really stupid comparison.

April 18, 2008 @ 9:38 am | Comment

Yes, but I guess thats when we have to differ in interpretation bob, in my view China is moving away from ideological fervor (especially in comparison to the Mao years), towards more openness. I also disagree with the concentration of capital in the state. While the Chinese government does still retain influence in the economy, private capital is becoming increasingly important and influential. As for the sociological origins of Fascism, China does not have an equivalent of the landed Junkers of Germany or the successors to the Daimyo in the Japanese countryside in which to base its support upon. Democracy in both Germany and Japan only occurred after crucial land reform that destroyed the political cohesiveness of the rural landlords. It seems clear to me that the Chinese government of today despite its socialist-communist rhetoric, is becoming ever more dependent upon the emerging urban bourgeoisie as a basis of support. This dependency upon the urban bourgeoisie is the key to democratic development as it occurred in Europe, Japan, South Korea and Taiwan.

April 18, 2008 @ 9:48 am | Comment

@ “ecodelta”
The media thrive on “sensational” headlines, there’s no doubt.
Considering how fast the games of capitalism were learned in the past couple of decades, the PR/media games will be learned soon enough, for better or worse.
It is naive to think by simply “providing” your materials and “encouraging” interviews, you’d get your share of coverage, even in this “free” media.
In 1997, when Hong Kong was returned to China, tens of thousands Chinese had a parade in Manhattan, NY to celebrate. People could disagree with the current government, but it was no doubt a moment of pride for most Chinese. Along the route of the parade, there was ONE anti-China demonstration of maybe 50 people.
Was a parade that size not “sensational”? Was there a lack of people to be interviewed for how happy they were?
Then you watch the news on TV, all the cameras were aimed at the anti-China group, they got the interviews, too. The celebration parade got about 2 second worth of air time. The following day, you read the news, it’s the same thing.
The same pattern repeats again and again, you know something is not right. It all precipitated into the major backlash against MSM we see among oversea Chinese.
Now with the internet, people can say “wait a minute”, but does it really help? CNN can quietly put away their cropped picture or issue a low key apology, but the damage is done.
A demonstration in front of CNN headquarter is the right thing to do. There will a big one in LA this Sat. But watch how it is covered by CNN and others (if they cover it at all).
This is not “victim mentality”, it’s reality.
This may not be the right forum to discuss the responsibilities of journalists and media. As readers, we should demand more from papers like NYT, or we might as well just go watch FOXnews.

April 18, 2008 @ 9:56 am | Comment

@ferin

China isn’t a racially homogenous nation like Nazi Germany

Wow, you seriously are completely clueless about European history. Not even Hitler believed that Germany was racially homogenous.

April 18, 2008 @ 10:00 am | Comment

Oy, vey. You really CAN’T win, can you Richard…

April 18, 2008 @ 10:00 am | Comment

Hualian,

The “openness” that you refer to is a veneer, false openness. Behind everything lies the security apparatus, and a hallowing out of civil society. It’s like living in a haunted house. One of the 1st things that the Nazis did was to hallow out German civil society linking it to the state.

With regard to private capital, much of the private capital owes its origin to corrupt links to the Party, hence, the linkage of capitalism and the State. Also, the goal is to build large state corporations.

The so-called “urban bourgeoisie” phenomenon does not apply as there is stilll no clear publi-private distinction in China giving rise to a sphere of privacy, private thought, freedom of speech, etc.

The middle class in China, as pointed out by Mann in “The China Fantasy”, is afraid of democracy (rather than a supporter of democracy) as democracy would likely mean a peasant government. It appears from the nationalistic middle class student demonstrations that such demonstrations are performing a role similar to the Brown Shirts.

April 18, 2008 @ 10:10 am | Comment

Race, in the context of Nazi Germany is more of a political idea anyways. That said, while it is certainly a possibility that China may go down that root, I just do not see the signs in the social construct of modern China. The lack of a powerful class of landlords dominating the rural countryside will hamper the type of government that arose in Germany and Japan during the 30’s. Contrastingly, I do think the urban business class is fast becoming the most influential in modern China. As I have mentioned above this characteristic is in common with the development of democracy elsewhere in Asia and the world.

April 18, 2008 @ 10:10 am | Comment

@Hualian

Race, in the context of Nazi Germany is more of a political idea anyways.

Yes, in Nazi Germamy, just as elsewhere.

The lack of a powerful class of landlords dominating the rural countryside will hamper the type of government that arose in Germany and Japan during the 30’s.

Interesting observation, but irrelevant if we are to talk about racism. Japanese fascism was murderous, but it did not attempt a holocaust.

April 18, 2008 @ 10:14 am | Comment

I actually have a friend at Duke who knew this girl before this incident. She tells me, Wang was already ostracized by the Chinese students there because she would always insist upon speaking English to her fellow Chinese classmates, even when everyone was Chinese.

My personal view is that Wang wanted this publicity. My friend tells me there was a open space separating about 20 Pro Tibetans and several hundred Chinese students. Wang all of sudden walked into the middle and started to lecture to the Chinese students in English. The odd thing is that Wang always wanted a career in politics in China.

Not to excuse the FenQing but the tradition of freedom of speech, especially a contradictory one is not very strong in China, but every child knows about stories of famous Han Jian or traitor. Being called a han jian is probably worse then being called a mass murderer or child rapist. What is so funny with this episode is that people say she is selling out her country, but she probably is pretty crazy and I doubt a Duke freshman can sell China to the US.

I understand why the Chinese are all riled up over Wang. Speaking from a personal perspective, I have felt pretty oppressed by the Western media, feeling kind of helplessness, being accused of something that you didn’t do. Seeing Wang, a fellow compatriot facing down all those Chinese students, actively participating in this, your emotions will override all other concerns.

April 18, 2008 @ 10:16 am | Comment

Bob, while much of the openness is indeed rather thin and paltry, I don’t think anyone would disagree its more open then say 30 years ago. I have to mention that unlike Germany, China never had developed much of a civil society, so theres not much of that to hallow out. A civil society can arise, when various business interests attempt to influence and curtail both the government and each other. Eventually this type of constant negotiation could very well see the development of a civil society as you referred. And yes like Taiwan and South Korea, much of the private capital does have its origins in the party, but that does not negate the fact that as private business becomes more influential it will naturally move against arbitrary government power for the simple fact that it seeks to protect its assets from arbitrary seizure.

April 18, 2008 @ 10:18 am | Comment

@x

I understand why the Chinese are all riled up over Wang. Speaking from a personal perspective, I have felt pretty oppressed by the Western media, feeling kind of helplessness, being accused of something that you didn’t do. Seeing Wang, a fellow compatriot facing down all those Chinese students, actively participating in this, your emotions will override all other concerns.

If you feel that you are accused of doing something (violating human rights) you didn’t do, what point are you proving by persecuting someone who just expressed her views?

April 18, 2008 @ 10:25 am | Comment

Amban, I do think it is significant to the issue at hand, since I think everyone would agree racism rears its ugly head just about in any society, the particular form of government that developed in 1930’s Germany and Japan namely Fascism, certainly did make racism that much more dangerous.

April 18, 2008 @ 10:29 am | Comment

@hualian

But you forget that official Japanese racism was directed against the West and that it claimed to represent Asia against imperialism. Fascist Japan also colonized Manchuria under the banner of five-race multiculturalism and claimed that Chinese resistance to Japanese rule was xenophobic. Draw your own conclusions.

April 18, 2008 @ 10:41 am | Comment

Hualian,

Yes, racism appears in most places, but it’s particularly virulent when it’s fanned by the government propaganda apparatus. I’ve lived in places with racism, but never in a place where the Government has fanned racist flames.

With regard to Germany, it’s probable that but for the war, the Final Solution would never have been made policy. Rather, it’s likely that the Nazis would have expelled the Jews to someplace like Madagascar as proposed. At present, in some respects there are efforts underway in China to expel foreigners. Of course, the Chinese are more subtle than the Germans and, therefore, this explusion takes the form of more difficult visa procedures, behind-the-scenes pressure on foreign offices to hire Chinese, etc., etc. In any case, Xenophobia is real in China, and has policy consequences. We don’t read about this because of the appeasement.

April 18, 2008 @ 10:43 am | Comment

@Hualian

Manchukuo multiculturalism:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Manchukuo011.jpg

PRC multiculturalism:

http://www.iisg.nl/~landsberger/sheji/sj-gw.html

April 18, 2008 @ 10:49 am | Comment

Bob, Amban when I say Fascism is dangerous for racism I’m not denying that China might also use xenophobic tendencies for political gain. I simply mean that Fascism is dangerous as far as racism is concerned, which I don’t think you guys would really disagree. Also, Bob there is a difference however subtle between the planned expulsion of millions of German Jews (which did culminate in the holocaust it may have something to do with the war but nonetheless it occurred) with changes in visa policy. Xenophobia of course is inherent in Chinese society as it is to varying degrees elsewhere, my personal opinion is however, the course of development that so far China seems to be on (since after the cultural revolution) is more expedient for the emergence of a democratic form of modernization (like Taiwan and S. Korea were a few decades ago) then a form of government that served to dramatically magnify xenophobic tendencies such as the case in Germany and Japan of the 1930’s. Now of course I don’t mean to say I am one hundred percent confident that my perspective of China’s modern political development will necessarily turn out but just that so far in my personal opinion the signs that I perceive from the socio-economic trends of modern China that I think a particular path of development is more likely then another.

April 18, 2008 @ 11:01 am | Comment

Hualian,

I don’t think that when we hear about China being “…at the dawn of a new 5,000 year reign” (and similar pronouncements) that they’re referring to creating a multi-cultural, pluralistic, liberal society.

How would you classify China’s current government system?

April 18, 2008 @ 11:07 am | Comment

Be careful, Ferin’s arguments are clearly weak (Germany as “monoethnic,” China as a lively and caring mix- try telling a “Han nationalist” about the differences between North and South, haha), so he’ll descend into outbursts of obscenity and personal attacks in 3…2….1….

April 18, 2008 @ 11:13 am | Comment

Bob, I personally view that the socio-economic structure of a country is more important in determining political development then rhetoric. (I’m not sure where the phrase you refers to comes from so its difficult for me judge its context) For me, the one constant I see in China’s current government is its in transition, its changing I think we can all be sure of that. Everything from its economics to its demographics are undergoing tremendous change. Now where is it going is the million dollar question. The current form of government, is in my opinion, due it its overwhelming reliance on economic performance for legitimacy and the fact that immense changes are occurring under its watch is inherently unstable. In my opinion, however, the socio-economic changes that are occurring right now are more expedient for an eventual emergence of democracy, drawing important parallels to Taiwan and S. Korea of a few decades ago. Now you or anyone else may draw a different conclusion and I just like to say that I do not deny that a starkly different prediction from mine may also be possible.

April 18, 2008 @ 11:18 am | Comment

Bob,

you damn right we should expel you foreigners out of our country. After all, aren’t you all really here to eat our food and fornicate with our women. It’s the same things the Koreans and Japanese have done after their economies have taken off. It’s the logical extension of what should happen.

It’s saddened me to know that the divide between China and the West has gotten bigger since the Tibet riot, fanned by hidden Western powers and sources for geopolitical reasons. the saddest part of the whole thing are the Exiled Tibetans and local Tibetans. They are just unknowing pawns in the great games between the West and China.

And last of all, you westerners have already stuck your fingers in your ears and have refused to hear what we have to say. So, stop pointing fingers, you are just as ingorant and stupid as you try to make others are.

Time for all of you foreigners to go home

April 18, 2008 @ 11:18 am | Comment

Middle Finger Kingdom, I highly doubt that there is really an appetite for expulsion of “foreigners” in China. If the general trend of the last 30 years have anything to say, the number of people from outside of China in China will increase. The Olympics might rile up some emotions, but I don’t think the trend can be reversed so easily. As the millions of Chinese learning English and other foreign languages can attest to, I don’t think most people in China wants to go back to the closed door policies that led to so much disaster and hardship in years past.

April 18, 2008 @ 11:26 am | Comment

Hualian,

No need for you to reply to me, this message for those foreigners living in China who thinks they know anything about China. You and I and other Chinese know and understand China.

Believe me, I’ve lived in the US for over 20 years, Americans are just as stupid as they think most of the Chinese are. There used to be a saying: don’t ever under-estimate the stupidity of Americans.” You have to understand, with all their rights to speak and protest, at the end of the day, they’re still manipulated by their government to do what they want to do in the world. The American government give their citizens the freedom to talk and bullshit, and in turn, the American citizens allow their government to do what they want in the rest of the world.

Foreigners excel at painting the whole picture with in brush stroke, cuz their peanut brains only allow this limited capacity hold such narrow and minute thought.

April 18, 2008 @ 11:38 am | Comment

Middle finger kingdom, you have a promising career in comedy. And I don’t necessarily mean that in a mean way: the whole “middle finger kingdom” is in and of itself classic. I just hope that you’re not serious; and if you are, I imagine that you’re one of those people who has lived outside of China all of their lives and visited for three weeks at a time.

April 18, 2008 @ 11:49 am | Comment

Middle Finger Kingdom, its nice to know that you agree with me, but I do not think there is no need to accuse a whole group of people of such and such. Don’t get me wrong there has been a lot of bitter speech and lack of understanding on either side. And this probably explains the escalating mutual accusations. But I think we should all step back and try to understand each other’s opinions. Just because some engage in rather inflammatory speech while also lacking in understanding should not give anyone else a compelling reason to react similarly. I’m sure you’ll agree with me on this as well.

April 18, 2008 @ 11:52 am | Comment

*do not think there is a need

sorry for the typo

April 18, 2008 @ 11:54 am | Comment

Grace Wang has shown she is a free thinker, so must be punished by the bloodthirsty mob. The irony is she probably agrees with many of their views.

The other thing that touches me about her example is that even though she may not agree with the pro-Tibet protesters, she is willing to deal with them. Therefore she clearly understands that they have a right to their opinions. That is a sign of maturity and it should not mean that she loves China less.

In the past few days, I have to several people made the case that Chinese get little credit for their views by the West over Tibet because they repeatedly act as if they only care about the interests of the Han Chinese without caring about the Tibetans, who are, after all, the ones who have the problems.

If more Chinese people could acknowledge the protesters and try to find points of compromise between the two sides as Miss Wang has done, then the Chinese government and people would soon see a West that was far more willing to see their point of view. Compromise does not necessarily equal “losing” Tibet or “splitting the motherland”.

You don’t have to agree with someone to talk with them rationally. I think that the mob, encouraged by the Chinese government, has gotten to the point where no rational talking can be tolerated. That is just silly. It is not only silly by nature. It is silly because it makes realising goals harder. All of this is making China’s reputation in the world worse, not better.

The last thing China wants right now is to be confronted with a world of people who feel (although they may not say): You are simply not worth talking to because you can’t talk rationally. Like it or not, China still needs the whole world more than the rest of the world needs China, and that will be the case forever. It is the case for all single countries, even for the US which is currently still in a strategically stronger position. Insouciance has not done the US any favours in the last few years. Outright hostility by US mobs would have been catastrophic. China take note.

X, you may be right that they had already ostracised her. However, she sounds like she had a bone or two to pick with how the “community” typically has acted in the past. Regardless, as with the case of the handicapped torch bearer, what Grace Wang stands for in the Western eye will become more important than who she actually is.

April 18, 2008 @ 12:08 pm | Comment

Just read Wang’s roomate’s blog about her, apparently she is schizo. The jest of it is that she is infamous in her dorm because she tells various stories about herself, including that her father is the ex mayor, she was persecuted in China for participating in 64 activities, exiled in Korea and how all the boys just want her milkshake. She also shaved her eyebrows recently because no beautiful girls can change the world.

@Amban
I am not trying to argue what is right or wrong, I am just saying why this is kind of like a Pavlovian trigger especially during this emotional time. You can understand why those students just coming back from the demonstration had a discussion about her on the Duke bbs. Unfortunately, this is routed to Tianya and the entire Chinese BBS blewup over it. The nature of the Chinese BBS is completely different then in America. In China, because the media is restrictive, BBS is a way for common citizens to act like reporters, report real life events and debunk news around them. In the US, the comments are usually just flame wars. In China, it is flame wars in addition to actual reporting by commenters and source of organization. In the case of Wang, people are egging others to get more information, thus you get props from rest of the community. It is like a game. From my knowledge, it is her classmates from her high school who actually did the poo by the door thing, because she is seen as a loss of face for her prestigious high school.

I do admit this entire thing is pretty crazy especially considering that Wang might be crazy and so many people including myself got so emotional about it.

April 18, 2008 @ 12:12 pm | Comment

@ Richard
“Nothing is scarier than the herd mentality, especially when the herd is being plain stupid. I care about this country and the people I love here, and they are so exquisite in the individual, and – at least at times like this – so frightening in the mass.”

I take no offense from your “scolding”. If anything, I agree with you. I am not proud of my fellow citizens’ behaviors. I do not claim I am above them. It is the growing pain we must go through. I am sorry you have to see this unpleasant side. But this is part of who we are. I feel your pain. But love us for who we are. We shall survive as we have for thousands of years.

I haven’t read enough of your posts to know your opinions. I just stumbled upon this site.

You must know though, the “herd mentality” exists not just among “nationalists”. It’s everywhere. I wouldn’t comment on its existence in other countries/cultures (but I am sure stupidity is universal).

Remember how the whole “crackdown” against Falungong started? CCP used to have no problem with FLG. some officials of CCP were even faithful followers. Then some were concerned that it was morphing into a cult. Someone published an article criticizing FLG on an unimportant local newspaper. FLG wasn’t happy. It staged a demonstration at Zhongnanhai. The “crackdown” followed. (I am not saying they brought it upon themselves)

If a religion/cult that advocates “truth, benevolence and tolerance” couldn’t be enlightened enough to tolerate a little doubt, what could you expect from some young emotional Fenqing armed with “anonymity” of the internet.
I’ve visited some of the forums, and was stunned by the level of stupidity and ignorance of these kids (and the topics weren’t even on political issues). So I left. I am sure other people have done the same. Whoever keep staying there, they sort of feed off on each other’s comments. Trust me, they do not represent everyone.

These kids will grow and learn. Unfortunately, some will have to learn their lessons the hard way. But they will be fine, as will our country and people.

As to the “noble” Ms Wang, if you read about her past (mostly, from the local newspapers in her hometown when she got full scholarship to go to a US university), you will find that she is super smart and super ambitious. So she will be just fine — although it seems to me that she’s having some serious identity issues, which I hope she grows out of soon.

My parents used to tell me how people would feed those who had starved to near death (probably they’d seen and heard about too many, both before 1949 and after). They’d say, you only give them a little bit of “zhou” first, you cannot give them a lot of food, or they’d stuff to death.

So one spoon of “zhou” at a time.

April 18, 2008 @ 12:16 pm | Comment

“No need for you to reply to me, this message for those foreigners living in China who thinks they know anything about China. You and I and other Chinese know and understand China.”

Hmm. I would call this, in your words, “peanut-brained” thinking. Actually this type of thinking reminds me a lot of what many addicts and trauma patients think. The person, towards the beginning, simply feels that nobody else can understand his condition. He is, somehow, special.

Middle Finger Kingdom, the events of over 100 years ago don’t justify an inferiority/superiority complex that turns rational thought sour.

April 18, 2008 @ 12:21 pm | Comment

Middle Finger Kingdom says:

“And last of all, you westerners have already stuck your fingers in your ears and have refused to hear what we have to say. So, stop pointing fingers, you are just as ingorant [sic] and stupid as you try to make others are.”

How can we point fingers if we’ve got them stuck in our ears???

April 18, 2008 @ 12:25 pm | Comment

be creative, pinky for the ears, pointer for the pointing.

April 18, 2008 @ 12:28 pm | Comment

@x

Just read Wang’s roomate’s blog about her, apparently she is schizo.

…and you believe that. And even if it were right, does it matter?

The nature of the Chinese BBS is completely different then in America. In China, because the media is restrictive, BBS is a way for common citizens to act like reporters, report real life events and debunk news around them.

…and the net result of that combination of Internet culture and government restriction is even more persecution? Unbelievable.

In the case of Wang, people are egging others to get more information, thus you get props from rest of the community. It is like a game. From my knowledge, it is her classmates from her high school who actually did the poo by the door thing, because she is seen as a loss of face for her prestigious high school.

That’s an interesting explanation, but not an excuse. This whole thing stinks from the beginning to the end.

April 18, 2008 @ 12:28 pm | Comment

(Germany as “monoethnic,” China as a lively and caring mix- try telling a “Han nationalist” about the differences between North and South, haha),

Germany is not ‘monoethnic’. It’s ‘monoracial’. The South and North Chinese are different races. Yes, SE and NE Asians are different races, just with a lot of admixture on both sides.

The genetic difference is very large. I’ve told several “Han nationalists” that North and South are different races. They don’t blow up at me, they just gape, as if it’s heresy.

If you want Hitler’s version of Germany’s ethnic composition, it was mostly “Nordic” with some “Alpine”, i.e not only from the same broad grouping (Caucasoid) but from a small portion of that grouping (white).

BOB is paranoid. You lie and exaggerate, and not only that, but you don’t ever know what you’re talking about.

April 18, 2008 @ 12:41 pm | Comment

kevinnolongerinpudong,

thanks for the “compliment”, my sense and level of comedy goes up whenever i see more crap coming out of you “democracy” preaching people. My point is and has always been the same, it’s the same crap in every country. I’m of the goepolitical bent, what I see in the US, in China, and in between are nothing more the the usual competition for resources and powers.

I’ve long ago gave up arguing for this or that social-political systems. I just hope people acknowledge that the competition for world power and hegemony is a dirty business. And lastly, we shouldn’t take each other and opinions too seriously. Last but not least, you dumb ass foreigners should start recognizing your hypocrisy, cuz your s**t really stinks.

Your democratic system is a means to an end – global hegemony, and China’s social system is also a means to an end – progressoion of the Chinese people and advancemen to the idea of global soicial-political pluralism, and of course, global hegemony.

The game has just started, there’s nothing u or I can do anything about it. So, just sit back and relax and enjoy the show. And of course, Go China!!

April 18, 2008 @ 12:42 pm | Comment

Hualian,

You didn’t answer my question: How would you classify China’s current government system?

You say that China’s “in transition”—-from “what” to “what”? What do you call a 1 party state with links between monopoly capital and government?

Middle Kingdom Finger,

You said that I should be expelled from China because I eat your Chinese food and fornicate with Chinese women. Hmmm…”Who’s been eating my porridge?! Who’s been sleeping in my bed?!” “I’ll huff, and I’ll puff…and I’ll blow your house in!”

By the way, I’m not fornicating with Chinese women, and least not for a while anyway, but if you’ve got any numbers, please send them along. Thanks.

April 18, 2008 @ 12:46 pm | Comment

they’re referring to creating a multi-cultural, pluralistic, liberal society.

You don’t get the point. Chinese people have never really been hung up on race. People are more content to just not bug eachother- that’s why China has a bunch of scattered ethnic groups, a bunch of different dialects and phenotypes even within the Han.

To have a race problem you have to create it first, that’s something Westerners take for granted. Stop projecting your own problems onto China, it doesn’t help your case (i.e that all Chinese people are uber racist, xenophobic ultranationalists and that China should be destroyed and wiped off of the map because they don’t bow down to you).

I’m guessing you got rejected by a Chinese girl or something.

April 18, 2008 @ 12:46 pm | Comment

Seeing Wang, a fellow compatriot facing down all those Chinese students, actively participating in this, your emotions will override all other concerns.

I would think it takes a certain amount of courage to face an overwhelming majority of your peers and contradict them, particularly if you know they may abuse you or worse as has happened in this case.

Honestly, I can’t understand how any normal, reasonable people can call her a traitor. No Chinese is going to die or suffer anything as a result. She hasn’t betrayed any state secrets (unless some people thought it was a secret that not all Chinese toe the line of their Party or peer pressure).

I agree with the complaint that the Tibet issue is being presented in Western media in a simplistic fashion which plays to preconceived ideas. More people like this young lady are needed, not less, if this is to change.

I don’t think many Westerners are likely to change their ideas regarding Tibet in the face of jingoism and seas of red flags, or shows of “force” such as boycotts. That only strengthens the idea that China believes might makes right and isn’t open to reason or dialogue. What might make people change their minds are quiet, well-spoken and reasonable individuals who can put forward a case which appeals to universal values such as justice and fairness. Before all you patriots scoff at “Western Hypocrisy”, remember that it did work pretty well for Martin Luther King, Nelson Mandela and that arch-enemy of British imperialism Mahatma Gandhi. And yes the Dalai Lama.

April 18, 2008 @ 12:52 pm | Comment

their ideas regarding Tibet

What are “their ideas”, exactly? I wasn’t aware they were all part of a hive mind. People need to stop speaking for both the Chinese and Tibetans and assuming that they all think alike.

April 18, 2008 @ 12:54 pm | Comment

” have a race problem you have to create it first, that’s something Westerners take for granted. Stop projecting your own problems onto China”

Oh, I see, so the massive civil unrest in Tibet lately was just a figment of our imaginations or a CIA plot, amirite?

Who are you trying to kid?

April 18, 2008 @ 12:56 pm | Comment

@Amban
Unlike many of yall because us Chinese have seen so much propaganda, we don’t easily believe anything. I msn some of my friends at Duke, some of them white and they pretty much confirm what I read in that blog. Wang is a complete wack job, and it is funny as hell from my perspective to see her on cnn/nytimes/washpost as the spokeswomen of injustice in China.

It is also extremely ironic that you are attacking the same “internet culture” that exposed the Shanxi brick/slave scandal, the government police abuse of migrant workers in Guangzhou, or the various anti-gov demonstrations held in China. Actually I can’t remember in recent years one important source of domestic news or people organizing themselves that didnt’ originate on the these bbs. I assume one of your critiques of China is the lack of democrazy. However, do you realize any future sort of domestic democratic revolution in China will probably be organized on the web and will resemble that culture for good or bad. Like you, seeing how easily people can be persuaded to take an extreme view, I am weary of democracy in China because how easily it can turn into extreme populist/nationalist ideology.

If you look at the BBS with regard to Wang, the people who are urging restraint are the ones spewing Chinese government slogans about “harmony” and “stability”, while those spewing hatred are demanding to know why their comments are expunged by the “facist” Tianya bbs.

April 18, 2008 @ 12:58 pm | Comment

Oh, I see, so the massive civil unrest in Tibet lately was just a figment of our imaginations or a CIA plot, amirite?

People riot all the time. See: 2002 Gujarat Violence. Only there 2,000-3,000 people died and thousands more women were raped.

Where is the media outcry? Where is the BS about “poor, innocent Muslims” holding a “peaceful protest”? Oh that’s right, I forgot it’s U.S policy to attempt to groom India into a future vassal.

Who are you trying to kid?

Heh.

April 18, 2008 @ 1:00 pm | Comment

@x:

Whether or not she is a “wack job” is completely irrelevent to the rights and wrongs of the situation. btw, I noticed you spelt “democracy” with a “z”, nice touch, 8/10

April 18, 2008 @ 1:01 pm | Comment

Well Bob, I would not call it Fascist, unless you consider the situation in Taiwan and S. Korea a few decades ago Fascist. Now actually if you widen the interpretation that could be reasoned. But then such a wide interpretation pretty much makes the term “Fascist” rather empty and meaningless. What I meant to say is that many agree on the premise that the Chinese government is changing really fast because inherently its current form is not stable. As for where this change is leading, I have made it clear of where I think the current socio-economic trend will lead to. There are certain parallels to Germany and Japan in the 1930’s I do not deny it, but its my opinion that the situation in S.Korea and Taiwan a few decades ago much closely matches the current socio-economic trends in mainland China. With the relationship between social classes in mainland China today especially similar to Taiwan and S. Korea, well being rather different from that of the definite Fascist governments(by which I mean almost no one will deny that they were “Fascist” using any definition) of 1930’s Japan and Germany.

April 18, 2008 @ 1:04 pm | Comment

@ferin:

Lern2/tu quoque

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tu_quoque

“Heh” does not really address my point. Why is a riot in the US evidence of racial conflict, while a riot in Tibet is not? Please explain?

April 18, 2008 @ 1:05 pm | Comment

The obvious difference, hualian, is that South Korea and Taiwan were American satrapies and did not have aspirations towards or the capability to contemplate ending Western hegemony. It is also worth noting that it took considerable pressure for Taiwan and S Korea to democratise: China may be large and powerful enough to resist peaceful efforts to compel it to democratise.

April 18, 2008 @ 1:08 pm | Comment

Tu quoque does not apply here. You’re trying to detract from China’s overall society by claiming it is racist. All I’m saying is that India and America have bigger race problems; no need to draw ugly parallels to Nazi Germany or Showa Japan unless you’re willing to use that same logic with America and her vassals.

Yes, the “race problem” as in the pogroms in Lhasa were indeed fueld by Tibetan separatists. That’s not a value judgment, I would hate it if China were occupied too. It’s nothing near the amount of racial problems Amexico or Eurabia has though.

April 18, 2008 @ 1:09 pm | Comment

did not have aspirations towards or the capability to contemplate ending Western hegemony

That’s mostly thanks to the size of their countries and their population. If there’s anyone that’s a threat to democracy, it would be America for giving it a bad name all around the world.

I think there will be WW3 before China accepts Iraq’s democracy. More people have died there, as a percentage of the population, than people have been killed or starved by Mao in 60 years.

No thanks to that.

April 18, 2008 @ 1:15 pm | Comment

The US and India have larger ethnic and racial tensions for the simple reason that they have larger minorities. What makes China different is their attitude in dealing with these minorities (personally, I feel a bit ridiculous about using the term “minorities” to refer to the Tibetans, since they are a majority on their own lands), and the fact that China, unlike India and the US, remains a totalitarian state in which minorities, like everyone else, are unable to express their discontent with their rulers in a peaceful manner.

April 18, 2008 @ 1:18 pm | Comment

Peanut Butter, yes that is the one part of my argument that would indeed be more difficult to reconcile. So then, I guess the question would be what does one think is more important to political change, is it outside influence? Say of the Americans in S. Korea and Taiwan or the internal dynamics of the countries themselves?. I’m more prone to say internal dynamics, as American influence in many cases did not necessarily saw the emergence of an entirely democratic form of government. Again, democracy may have been sped up in the case of S. Korea or Taiwan due to American influences, its hard to say, yet its in my opinion that it would not have taken root during the past decade or so had the internal socio-economic structure not slowly become more favorable. Now back to mainland China, I am pretty convinced that its internal structures matches that of S. Korea and Taiwan a few decades ago most closely then any other, certainly closer then to that of 1930’s Germany and Japan. So how will all of this turn out?

April 18, 2008 @ 1:22 pm | Comment

I beg to differ, Ferin: I believe that the threat to democracy is the lack of willpower on the part of the world’s democracies to defend their supremacy in the post-colonial and post-Cold War era. The return of HK and the refusal of the US to back up CSB are just two failures which have further empowered the Party emboldened Beijing. When we should have been trying to keep China down and as weak as possible, instead we have been appeasing it in the hope of molding it in our image. Let’s face it folks: it’s not going to happen, therefore a different approach is and always has been needed.

April 18, 2008 @ 1:22 pm | Comment

You don’t get the point. Chinese people have never really been hung up on race. People are more content to just not bug each other

This reminds me of the way European New Zealanders used to congratulate themselves, 50 years ago, that they had the best race relations in the world. They were able to believe this because they had very little opportunity to hear the point of view of the Maori.
It sometimes came as a shock to those people that the Maori could have been anything other than grateful for bringing advanced technology, civilization and economic development.
Europeans in New Zealand have learned a little since then. From what I’ve seen of the Han Chinese viewpoint since the Tibet riots, it appears they are still stuck in the 1950s if not earlier.

April 18, 2008 @ 1:22 pm | Comment

India does have more minorities. The U.S does not. The U.S has had racial tensions ever since Europeans set foot on America.

It’s also meaningless if minorities can express their discontent when nothing meaningful comes out of that democratic process except lipservice or negligence. The aborigines of Australia have a life expectancy of 59 years; democratic failture. There are 40 million bonded labors in India, democratic failure.

Not even going to touch on America’s treatment of the Natives, if I have to spell it out to you it will just go to show your deeply entrenched bias. America just exports their totalitarianism to other countries or territories and brings the standards of humanitarianism down worldwide so they can continue the farce of portraying their plutocratic corporatocracy as some kind of civil, democratic republic.

I don’t love the CCP but I don’t love “Westernism” either.

April 18, 2008 @ 1:24 pm | Comment

@x

I msn some of my friends at Duke, some of them white and they pretty much confirm what I read in that blog. Wang is a complete wack job, and it is funny as hell from my perspective to see her on cnn/nytimes/washpost as the spokeswomen of injustice in China.

Well, as some one has pointed out, whether she is a wack job or not isn’t really relevant. But given the risk of being targeted (it has happened on several campuses already) perhaps only “wack jobs” have the courage not to conform.

It is also extremely ironic that you are attacking the same “internet culture” that exposed the Shanxi brick/slave scandal, the government police abuse of migrant workers in Guangzhou, or the various anti-gov demonstrations held in China.

It is indeed ironic, I agree. But why is there such a resistance to discuss these things in front of a world wide audience?And why target people for being unpatriotic who say things in public that are already being discussed on various BBS? For instance, I have detected very little sympathy for people like Hu Jia from many Chinese contributors on to this blog. It seems that the moment a Chinese takes the plunge to “spill the beans” in front of non-Chinese, he is doomed.

I can think of a number of reasons why this is the case, but given these circumstances, I can’t understand why the Chinese government and many Chinese are craving the attention of being the Olympic host without realizing that there will be a lot of negative publicity. If you organize a high profile event like the Olympics, you have to be ready to pay the price. And there is absolutely no way that the rest of the world will stick to the script you have handed them and sing “One world, one dream” in unison.

April 18, 2008 @ 1:28 pm | Comment

When we should have been trying to keep China down and as weak as possible

Mao did a pretty good job of that, I’m glad you clarified your vision of an ideal China and world.

Peter:

This reminds me of the way European New Zealanders used to congratulate themselves, 50 years ago

This is getting ridiculous. “Han” is not interchangeable with whiteness. It is not a race, it’s a very flimsy construct that was rapidly pieced together a few hundred years ago. Those peoples who are around China have been in place for thousands of years and some relative balance to that respect has been achieved.

Likewise, most of the minorities are physically indistinguishable from their Han neighbors. That’s because there has been a lot of admixture.

Then there’s the whole history behind whiteness and the evil that has been done in its name.

Anyway I think the Han classification needs to be tossed out of the window like any other rotting piece of garbage. The Chinese can just go back to being Tangren and Dongbeiren or whatnot and stop clinging to this ridiculous joke of an ethnic identity.

April 18, 2008 @ 1:30 pm | Comment

Peanut Butter, I doubt the United States considers its relationship with China on the terms of “molding it” in their image. Simply because I believe all countries act almost overwhelmingly along self-interest. If promoting democracy aids US interests it will actively seek to do so, if not it will not. I’m not condemning the United States, I just don’t think thats how political leaders no matter where there from, predominantly opperate.

April 18, 2008 @ 1:32 pm | Comment

And there is absolutely no way that the rest of the world will stick to the script you have handed them and sing “One world, one dream” in unison.

Still, objective reporting, a little honesty and an even tone would have been helpful. And I mean what I typed, I don’t want any vultures interpreting that as saying everyone should kowtow to the CCP.

April 18, 2008 @ 1:32 pm | Comment

I’m not pulling this out of nowhere. The justification usually given for engagement with China is that it will sooner or later “inevitably” result in Chinese democratisation when the Chinese middle class becomes large enough.

April 18, 2008 @ 1:34 pm | Comment

This is getting ridiculous. “Han” is not interchangeable with whiteness.

No one is making that argument. Only you are clinging to racial categories, while pretending that they do not matter. Not a single “white” country in the world is racially homogeneous. Germany is a mixture of Slavs, Teutons, Celts, Romans and what not, etc, etc.

April 18, 2008 @ 1:38 pm | Comment

Well personally I think the justification with engagement with China is making money, if democracy results its a nice bonus. I just don’t think making money is a very good argument to say to the media. So Peanut Butter, tell me, what is your view on the question I posed before, what is more important for political change especially in the case of China, internal dynamics or outside influence? I’m honestly interested to hear other opinions.

April 18, 2008 @ 1:38 pm | Comment

>Mao did a pretty good job of that, I’m glad you clarified your vision of an ideal China and world.

Better a weak, angry, and inward-looking China than a powerful, supremacist and threatening one. Old China was bad, sure, but thankfully we could ignore it relatively easily, which we can’t do any more.

April 18, 2008 @ 1:39 pm | Comment

@ferin

Still, objective reporting, a little honesty and an even tone would have been helpful.

Sure. But the best way to earn the respect that China deserves is to respond to bad reporting with calm. When Foreign Ministry spokesmen demand an apology from CNN for Cafferty’s remarks, you are almost asking for more people to say stupid things.

April 18, 2008 @ 1:45 pm | Comment

Germany is a mixture of Slavs, Teutons, Celts, Romans and what not, etc, etc.

Wow. Please tell me you’re joking.. in the context of Hitler’s policies, this really is not saying much.

Better a weak, angry, and inward-looking China than a powerful, supremacist and threatening one.

Translation: millions should have to die yearly so that your evil way of life can’t suffer even the thought of fair competition.

I’m glad that’s clarified. Another thing that’s also a great relief is that there isn’t a chance in hell that China will be destroyed like that again.

April 18, 2008 @ 1:49 pm | Comment

Sure. But the best way to earn the respect that China deserves is to respond to bad reporting with calm.

I would shout “tu quoque!” but I don’t believe in resorting to that kind of intellectually dishonest crap.

What you said is right for sure. But people have to keep in mind how the CCP operates when it tries to interact with China. They should avoid fueling nationalism, but who am I to say? They have their right to free speech.

April 18, 2008 @ 1:52 pm | Comment

@ferin,

“Wow. Please tell me you’re joking.. in the context of Hitler’s policies, this really is not saying much.”

His point, I think, was that Germans are as much a “constructed” race as the Han Chinese are.

“I’m glad that’s clarified.”

I make no apologies for what I’ve said. I don’t see why we should appease a totalitarian government in the hope that it remains unthreatening. It was obviously in our long-term interest to ensure that only a China part of the current world order became economically developed. Pity Nixon was too short-sighted to imagine that we’d reach the point we’re at today.

April 18, 2008 @ 1:54 pm | Comment

@ferin,

“Wow. Please tell me you’re joking.. in the context of Hitler’s policies, this really is not saying much.”

His point, I think, was that Germans are as much a “constructed” race as the Han Chinese are.

“I’m glad that’s clarified.”

I make no apologies for what I’ve said. I don’t see why we should appease a totalitarian government in the hope that it remains unthreatening. It was obviously in our long-term interest to ensure that only a China part of the current world order became economically developed. Pity Nixon was too short-sighted to imagine that we’d reach the point we’re at today.

April 18, 2008 @ 1:54 pm | Comment

@thomas
I skimmed through the comments and happened to read yours in full, so a few things to say, some in response to your comment
I read a simple argument recently:
1. the basis of human rights is morality
2. In international politics, there is only national interests, no morality
3. Therefore, in international politics, there are no human rights
I’m sure a lot of people will jump at refuting this argument (mainly point 2 i guess), however most empirical evidence seem to suggest to me that this is more or less a true statement (however sad it is). And I think that reflects how a lot of Chinese see the recent issues – they think human rights is just a cover for the power struggle in international politics
As such, some will say that any “dialogue” with the the Free Tibet movement will be pointless and also dangerous. China will not grant Tibet more autonomy than the status quo, and as such even if dialogue happened, the western media will just quickly start saying the Chinese are stalling and start another round of bashing. Which leaves China in the same spot as it is currently, except that the government has moved into the even further unfavorable position of having started dialogue – just imagine US talking with Bin Laden to resolve their differences (of course people will quickly say Dalai is not a terrorist – but that’s just your point of view, and equally legitimate is some Arabs’ opinion that Osama is no terrorist but a martyr).
And for Chinese, “dialogue” seemingly forced upon them by westerners certainly brings to mind some of the humiliations of the 19th century, where western powers tried hard to colonize China. Westerners can certainly talk about how much the world has changed for the better, but again, empirical evidence can show to the Chinese that it hasn’t changed much – power still allows you to do anything, just look at the US invading Afghanistan / Iraq. So again, in international politics there is only national interests.
And another thing – the world is certainly not just NATO countries. You’ve probably read black and white cat’s recent post on a BBC poll (http://www.blackandwhitecat.org/2008/04/15/chinas-influence/). China is certainly liked by a lot of people from a lot of countries, just not NATO ones.
At the end of the day, I’m not necessarily disagreeing with you – I just want to say that while your opinions may be legitimate based upon your view of the world, the same could be said of those conflicting opinions. I just hope what I said can make you understand better the logic / mentality of the other side.
As for the irrational mob, I think irrational says it all. Again, don’t think all 1.3B Chinese are such, or all of the millions of (L) China folks on MSN are such. I put such a “sticker” on my MSN because however rational I am (or try to be), I am sick and tired of the media hysteria disguised as objective reporting these days. Sure the western media is “free”, but their selective reporting certainly cannot be labeled unbiased – take for example, the largely unreported torch relays between San Francisco & New Delhi, for the uninformed, it would certainly seem that at every stop around the globe there were protests (hence the whole world is against China).
Enough said.

April 18, 2008 @ 1:55 pm | Comment

His point, I think, was that Germans are as much a “constructed” race as the Han Chinese are.

If you’re trying to insinuate that Chinese people are stupid and vile enough to further construct the Han into a monolithic racial entity (god knows how someone could ever think the Yue or Huaxia are of the same race) to the point where they’re gassing ethnic minorities, I’d say you’re crazy.

I can only imagine. Behold, the Han master race! With our epicanthic folds.. wait no, our double eyelids, er, flared Austronesian nostrils, or is that low-bridged paedomorphic noses? Okay what’s our skin color, brown? Reddish? YOU’RE A FUCKING MANCHU AREN’T YOU?! TO THE DEATH CAMP! HEIL HU JINTAO!

April 18, 2008 @ 2:01 pm | Comment

>god knows how someone could ever think the Yue or Huaxia are of the same race

Indeed, ferin. God only knows.

April 18, 2008 @ 2:05 pm | Comment

Peanut Butter, yes why does the West engage with China then. Is it out of good will? Hope for democracy? or what I personally think, to make money. Conversely why did China engage with the West? Again, probably to make money. I think we can all agree to that. Could we not?

April 18, 2008 @ 2:06 pm | Comment

I think that corporate America, together with some over-optimistic, naive idiots, together hoodwinked the American people into imagining that greater economic ties between the US and China would lead to the democratisation of latter along the lines of the Asian Tigers, ignoring the fairly obvious fact that the Chinese population is about 5 times that of the US and that China will naturally be more difficult to influence in this way.

April 18, 2008 @ 2:09 pm | Comment

“””””””Remember how the whole “crackdown” against Falungong started? CCP used to have no problem with FLG. some officials of CCP were even faithful followers. Then some were concerned that it was morphing into a cult. Someone published an article criticizing FLG on an unimportant local newspaper. FLG wasn’t happy. It staged a demonstration at Zhongnanhai. The “crackdown” followed. (I am not saying they brought it upon themselves)””””””””

Dude, I do not want to accuse you of anything here, but I do want to contrast what you said with a different perspective. I guess we must have gotten our info from different sources…..Did you by any chance get your info from the perpetrators of the persecution and its lackies? Just curious…

“””””Then some were concerned that it was morphing into a cult.””””””

Is that the official line? Because the situation that I have understood is that the CCP (actually Jiang Zemin) was spooked at the Falun’s popularity. before the April 25 1999 incident, the CCP has already banned the book and has been putting the boot to them and spying/accusing for years. The persecution as it happened was not a spur of the moment occurence, it was strategically implemented based on Jiang Zemin convincing the politburo to agree with his will to crush innocent people. The beginning of the persecution was to put the boot to the practitioners and the following step was to slander them. The practitioners knew what was going on, they were not upset about that one article, they were upset because the persecution has alread begun at that point. Also, that demonstration occured because when a few people went to go talk to the newspaper people, they were sent to an appeals office where they were beaten and held prisoner.. The protest was to ask the government not to treat Falun Gong as enemy. It is naive to say that the CCP was concerned that Falun was a cult, that is what they say, that is the excuse they stick to. But the reason they wanted to elliminate the group was because it was popular and it was a belief that Jiang perceived as a threat to his stupid represents and the CCP religion. The Falun Gong or Mr. Hongzhi, were not opposed to the government but Jiang convinced the politburo that it was a threat to the leaders power in some way. I tend to think that the very strong belief in Buddhas and deities bothered Jiang since it made his atheist stance seem less glorious since such a large number were believing in a divine power….. Anyway, I thought i ought to clarify since I think you got it wrong and I think it really matters.

“””””””If a religion/cult that advocates “truth, benevolence and tolerance” couldn’t be enlightened enough to tolerate a little doubt, what could you expect from some young emotional Fenqing armed with “anonymity” of the internet.”””””””

So if my perspective is accurate, it was not a one time incident that inspired the demonstration, the CCP had beaten and imprisoned around 40 people for appealing about the newspaper. Also, there is a problem in logic here: Their protest was totally tolerant, silent, peaceful, and only there to plead for the CCP to not crack down and persecute the group. The crackdown had already started and they knew it, why do you think so many people showed up? They are not political, but that day many average people stood there to say, falun Gong is not bad, so please do not make the decision to treat it as the enemy. The premier was cool with it and apologized, and was reprimanded by jiang Zemin for being cool with them, he hated them from his heart, it had nothing to do with cult this or that.

April 18, 2008 @ 2:11 pm | Comment

Peanut Butter, it is true that mainland China is tremendously large who’s relationship with the United States and the West would surely differ from that of Taiwan and S. Korea. I agree with you on that point. Just how much this “different” relationship will effect political development is central to my previous question. What is more important for political change especially in the case of China, internal dynamics or outside influence? I’m honestly interested to hear other opinions.

April 18, 2008 @ 2:25 pm | Comment

“People need to stop speaking for both the Chinese and Tibetans and assuming that they all think alike.”

A couple more generations of CCP compulsory denouncements of everything DL should take care of any thought differences that are troubling you.

April 18, 2008 @ 2:49 pm | Comment

@snow
Forget FLG, that discussion can take on a life (or 2 or 3…)of its own.
All I am saying is that even those who practice meditation could become quite hostile to different opinions, especially on very emotional issues. Maybe the FLGers I’ve seen were not enlightened enough and needed a lot more practice. What do you expect from irrational and hyper emotional young people? They are irrational, but they are everywhere, not specific to China or this issue.
China will be just fine. She might have had her ups and downs, but she has survived and doing well. Her 1.3 (1.4, 1.5? take your number) people are still around. Don’t anyone worry and get sick from worrying about her future.

April 18, 2008 @ 3:01 pm | Comment

There’s a difference between simply sympathizing with the plight of the Tibetan people, and being a fool and publicly defecating on the dignity of one’s own country in front of foreigners. I am a Mongolian Chinese minority, my private sympathies are not with the nationalists but the Dalai Lama, but I have a right to be proud of my country just like any other person in the world, and she had it coming. By advocating support for a movement that is not only attacking the Chiense government but China as a whole, she is a traitor of all of China. The Chinese people have a right to guard against backstabbers who are willing to assist foreigners to hijack the dreams of the Chinese people.

Purge all traitors, and let the storm break loose!

April 18, 2008 @ 3:11 pm | Comment

This is getting ridiculous. “Han” is not interchangeable with whiteness. It is not a race, it’s a very flimsy construct that was rapidly pieced together a few hundred years ago.

It doesn’t matter whether Han is a race or not. For that matter, plenty of scholars now think that race is a socially constructed artefact. But as a label used for a group of people who think of themselves as belonging to a single group, it is real enough. “Han” is such a label, as is “white”.

Then there’s the whole history behind whiteness and the evil that has been done in its name.

True, and during that time China didn’t commit any real evil in the name of the “yellow race” because it was weak. I’m not sure their attitude towards race was any more enlightened for the times, however. China has always considered itself superior to its neighbors

Anyway I think the Han classification needs to be tossed out of the window like any other rotting piece of garbage. The Chinese can just go back to being Tangren and Dongbeiren or whatnot and stop clinging to this ridiculous joke of an ethnic identity.

Perhaps that would be a good idea, but I don’t think the CCP will agree because they want to promote unity, not regionalism.

Also, you ought to put your garbage in the bin not throw it out the windows 🙂

April 18, 2008 @ 3:14 pm | Comment

There’s a difference between simply sympathizing with the plight of the Tibetan people, and being a fool and publicly defecating on the dignity of one’s own country in front of foreigners

Really, how has China’s dignity been affected? Even if she had said that China ought to leave Tibet (not a position I support), that would not be undignified or make China look any the worse – at least not in my own eyes.

When people respond with rage and abuse, that is undignified.

April 18, 2008 @ 3:22 pm | Comment

By advocating support for a movement that is not only attacking the Chiense government but China as a whole, she is a traitor of all of China.

By this logic, any white South African who opposed apartheid would have been a traitor.

April 18, 2008 @ 3:28 pm | Comment

@NTY
Going back to the CH reaction against biased western media depiction of the country, could you imagine what would have happened if Mr Borat instead of being the second best Kazakhstani news reporter, were the second best CH reporter?
I can see the headlines in the CH news.
“CH demands Borat to apologize for insulting CH people, culture and history…”

You should learn from your Kazakhstani neighbors, they were perfectly able to deal with Borats caustic sense of humor, and at the same time, by showing their best side of their personality, put themselves their little know country on the map for many ignorant foreigners.

The perception of the country raised several notches, suddenly more tourists appeared in Astana and they got more business opportunities from other countries and companies for which Kazakhstan was until then under the radar.

In this torch affair CH is behaving like an elephant crashing into a CH porcelain shop
(no put intended) or better… like a dragon crashing into a porcelain shop with fire and all ( no put intended again). I do not want to get any flak for confusing India (elephant) with CH (dragon) either.

You think CH wont get the right attention from MSM if the provide them with good news material? Dont give up. Keep trying, they are not the only stubborn guys around 😉

April 18, 2008 @ 3:31 pm | Comment

So again, what this boils down to is the right and power to the world what to do. I just wish you damn foreigners just come out and acknowledge the fact that you want the West to keep its hegemonic power by “forcing” China to go Democractic, so that through this process of Democratic transformation, China will be eventually so weakened that it will and can never challenge the West.

You see, my western friends, you are overly “righteous” that you don’t have the balls to say what what you really think and feel. Stop the bullshit, your democratic system is your government’s means to its end. History is not pre-ordained. If you’re so sure and confidence about the democratic social-political system and its destiny, then why are you so scared of China and its political system. Is it that you fear China’s idea of a global social-political pluralism or you’re just afraid that you will no longer be looked at as the future of mankind?

Like them wheels in Tibet, the world continues to turn, and it’s time for you westerners to go away. The world will go on with or without you people.

April 18, 2008 @ 3:38 pm | Comment

I could be wrong, but I believe I’m the first person to mention Wang Qianyuan on this blog.

I have no intention of defending those who’ve sought to expose or attack her personally in any way. I don’t think there’s any justification for it, and frankly, that’s what many Chinese are saying.

That said, I think it’s myopic linking this to the political issue. “Internet mobs” are not a new phenomenon in China, as I’m sure you’re well aware of richard. Wang Qianyuan is getting the same treatment as the guy who left his wife (who later committed suicide) for a co-worker last year. But myopia is something the NY Times and the Washington Post trades in.

As far as how all of this hurts and what not… well, it’s been building, and it’s taken two to tango. Everything from Mia Farrow and Steven Spielberg on has been seen as a giant “fuck you” to the Chinese (not just the Chinese government), and now the masses have had enough.

Those who keep blaming the state press for fanning nationalism are totally behind the times; the state media is desperately trying to play catch-up to an event that’s happening almost entirely online. The state media wanted nothing better than to censor out every image of foreign protest from its domestic coverage, because this is precisely the reaction it wanted to avoid.

But let the liberals world-wide be heartened! Internet technology has guaranteed that the Chinese are well aware of what’s happening outside Chinese borders, regardless of the spin the state media put on it. Many Chinese still hadn’t personally seen the footage of most of the London/Paris riots until just a few days ago, when CCTV finally broadcast it.

China’s public security forces has already put out its feelers, reaching out directly to organizers to cancel a variety of rallies and marches throughout China. They’ve had some luck, but so far only with the more reasonable moderates. They’ve had to be more direct in other cases, canceling internet forums/QQ groups that were discussing specific details.

I question whether Beijing has the ability to silence this one. As I’ve said before, the Communist Party might not be democratic, but it only rules with the consent of the people. The people are very angry, and looking for a target. We’ll find out after 5/1.

I’ll say it again: if Beijing were to compromise significantly with the Dalai Lama, I personally wouldn’t be surprised to see Wen Jiabao and Hu Jintao hanging from lampposts. Period.

On a previous thread, otherlisa and someone else asked for the Chinese narrative on Tibet. I’ve given it many times before, but I don’t think it’s very convincing to many Westerners… far too long and far too much history, not nearly as snazzy… but it’s very convincing for the vast majority of Chinese. (And vice-versa with the “Tibet is a conquered nation” narrative popular in the West, and unacceptable to the Chinese.)

Bottom line: Tibet has been part of China for hundreds of years; Tibet wasn’t targeted for special punishment at any time… Tibet has only had it better than inland China in all of the metrics that most Chinese care about, not worse; the Dalai Lama has been working the cause of Tibetan independence for 50 years, and has to do some serious convincing before he’ll be taken at face value.

By the way, some Chinese in Minnesota had a chance to directly talk with the Dalai Lama today after protesting his speech there. There *is* dialog here, but I don’t foresee a meeting of the minds. There’s simply zero, zero tolerance for Tibetan independence in China today, period.

If the Dalai Lama really wants a deal along the lines of autonomy… can someone tell the TGIE to get rid of the “Dalai Lama’s Vision for a Future Free Tibet” from their website? The Vision that explicitly lays out their plans for independence?

April 18, 2008 @ 3:48 pm | Comment

@ CCT:

“There’s simply zero, zero tolerance for Tibetan independence in China today, period.”

There wasn’t in France from Algerian independence, either. Things change.

April 18, 2008 @ 3:53 pm | Comment

*for*

April 18, 2008 @ 3:54 pm | Comment

“”forcing” China to go Democractic, so that through this process of Democratic transformation, China will be eventually so weakened that it will and can never challenge the West.”
Actually China has been always most weak under authoritarian rulers…

“, your democratic system is your government’s means to its end.”
Exactly! But you seem to understand it somewhat differently….

“don’t have the balls to say what what you really think and feel.”
Correction… don´t have the balls to say what “I” think you really think and feel.

“is it that you fear China’s idea of a global social-political pluralism or ”
Inside CH too?

“The world will go on with or without you people.”
The same way it went without CH from 1949 to the end of the 80’s/beginning 90’s aprox. Do yuo want to go back to that?

April 18, 2008 @ 3:56 pm | Comment

>Purge all traitors

The Dalai Lama should be paying you for doing his PR work for him 🙂

April 18, 2008 @ 3:58 pm | Comment

Of course, CCT, the Dalai Lama needs to give further concessions, not China, as the Chinese government has shown great flexibility and benevolence in Tibet, right?
You’ve also never responded to the way that you thoroughly contradicted yourself a few weeks ago.

April 18, 2008 @ 4:00 pm | Comment

Ever since this Tibet riot and its aftermath, I’m ever more convinced that China’s rise is possibly the most important event in our human history since the West’s Renaissance. China’s rise and proclamaition of its rightful place in the world holds greater significance to the world than many people have yet to realize. Democracy might’ve shed the light on the darkness of Western Europe, the US, Australia and New Zeland, but China’s rise will shed the light and become a beacon to the rest of the world. This is what’s at stake now, and the West will make sure the snuff out this light. For they will make sure that hte rest of the world will be forever beholden and enslaved to the West.

Like Jesus, China will bear the pain and the sins of the West to bring light to the rest of the world. It’s only a matter of time. The hegemoney of the assolutism of hte democratic social-political idelogy will end. Real self-determination of each nation is a goal damn worth fighting for.

Now, that’s real democracy and respect of human rights.

April 18, 2008 @ 4:03 pm | Comment

What is self-determination without freedom? Who will do the “determining,” exactly?

I loved the “China-as-Jesus” comparison. Nice touch, 8/10.

April 18, 2008 @ 4:06 pm | Comment

The freedom of the each nation to form and make up their own government, as opposed to the West imposing its ideology on other nations, and worse, bringing down popular governments of nations that they don’t like. Don’t make me go into how the West upholds other nations’ government that they like and oppose those that they hate.

April 18, 2008 @ 4:12 pm | Comment

Is China really any more likely to bring this freedom than the US? North Korea, Burma, Zimbabwe, etc. give me the feeling that Chinese foreign policy is at least as amoral as that of the US. At least in the United States, individuals are free to oppose their government’s foreign and domestic policies if they consider them to be unfair.

April 18, 2008 @ 4:14 pm | Comment

“Like Jesus, China will bear the pain and the sins of the West to bring light to the rest of the world.”
(By the way, I think I just barfed a little after reading this).
According to the official narrative, that is what China has been doing. The Chinese government wallows in the role of victim, as it helps many overlook its role as perpetual and determined victimizer.
“Real self-determination of each nation is a goal damn worth fighting for.”
Thanks for voicing your support for Tibet, Taiwan, Hong Kong (a Cantonese Republic?), Manchuria, and East Turkestan. Or would “nation” only apply to nations that have received a thumbs-up from the diaper-wearing octogenarians in Zhongnanhai? Challenging one imagined “empire” through the creation of another is not really liberating or exhilarating logic. And, relating to previous posts, it makes for bad “PR” as it makes no f-ing sense.

April 18, 2008 @ 4:24 pm | Comment

If any American advocated the dismemberment of the country, at the behest of a foreign power, would not 99% of Americans consider this to be treason – freedom of speech notwithstanding?

So Chinese are perfectly entitled to feel angry with this woman. She is advocating the tearing off of fully one-quarter of the landmass of China. To my mind she is a traitor. But because of her youth she can redeem herself by simply issuing an apology.

April 18, 2008 @ 4:26 pm | Comment

Furthermore, Comedy Central Kingdom, the West is not a unitary actor. While we have people on this exact thread urging us to differentiate the “Chinese people” from the nazis who threatened this young lady who dared to speak her mind and was misunderstood, we still have others who repeat the trope of a “Western conspiracy.” Again, it makes no sense, and also is quite unrelated to the victimization of an ordinary young Chinese lady. If she was being picked on and threatened by Japanese (especially)/ Tibetan/ American/ French/ Mongolian/ Micronesian or an essentially any “foreign” people, all of you dumb nationalists would be about to shit your pants in anger and promptly deliver the feces to the relevant embassy. But just as long as it is Chinese abusing other Chinese, well, that’s just fine and dandy, and screw ‘the west,” right?
I’m not completely comfortable with the Nazi Germany- PRC parallel, for a number of fairly obvious reasons, but anyone who fails to see the similarities in terms of the narratives of victim/ victimizer, the suppression of alternative voices as “traitors,” and the manipulation of the Olympics for virulently nationalist goals has to be kidding themselves. If you don’t know when to say that wrong is just plain wrong, it’s hard for anyone to really respect you (eagerly awaiting predictable retort about US, which will only display a lack of willingness to engage with real issues and a desperate need to continually displace problems onto others).

April 18, 2008 @ 4:35 pm | Comment

@ china is rising:
landmass is more important than people? ready to kill millions for another “century of stability”? thanks for sharing contemporary chinese official ideology with us! stability over everything, even including the people supposedly “benefiting” from the “stability” (although everyone knows the real winners are the tubaozi in the government)
how about a slogan for the PRC government? rather than e pluribus unum, how about “landmass will always be (mightily, grandly, and correctly) more important than you!” divert the dumb youngsters’ attention from their own personal development for the sake of the sacred “motherland”…

April 18, 2008 @ 4:42 pm | Comment

ready to kill millions for another “century of stability”?

Isn’t this the official US policy? We’re fighting them there, so we don’t have to fight them here.

April 18, 2008 @ 5:03 pm | Comment

(Insert “predictable retort about US.”) Am I psychic or is this just getting too easy?
CLC, I’m sure that you recognize that the quotation about killing so many for a hundred years of stability comes from the ultimate traitor and criminal, second only to Mao, Deng Xiaoping. Criticizing this callous and dehumanizing statement does not my any stretch of the imagination imply that I support US policy in Iraq. Unlike you and many other Chinese nationalists, I don’t use other nations’ mistakes to cover over my own nation’s mistakes.

April 18, 2008 @ 5:22 pm | Comment

I’ve lost count of how many times I’ve had to post this copypasta:

Lern2/Tu quoque

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tu_quoque

April 18, 2008 @ 5:28 pm | Comment

2008注定是不平静的一年，“天灾”“人祸”随着2008年新年的钟声一起到来。先是春节左右的南方雪灾，然后是西藏事件，接着是奥运圣火传递事件，短短几个月就发生了这么多事情，不知道以后还会发生什么。

打开网站，从官方论坛到私人论坛，从BBC, NEW YORK TIMES，PEKINGDUCK 到新华日报，163网站到腾讯网站，无一不在打口水战。政治是个敏感的话题，意识形态问题也永远解释不清楚。不论是“西藏事件”还是“圣火事件”，不论是“人权问题”还是“奥运问题”，立场不同观点自然不同。在激烈的口水战前，我想说的是：多些理智多些了解就不会有太多的狂热与冲突。

不论QQ还是MSN，最近都最在转发着”抵制法货”等类似宣传。奥运本是体育活动，现在却成了意识形态斗争的导火索和口水战的核心。至于“法货”是否抵制的住，尚不得而知。只是，这又令我想到了历史上提及的“冷战”事件。结果苏联和美国都没占到什么便宜，反倒是两败俱伤。

在狂热的“爱国主义”宣传和“HUMAN RIGHTS”的口号前，我不知道该说些什么。关于盲目的“爱国主义”我想说的是，当初日本侵略中国时打出的是“效忠天皇”的旗号，参加战争的日本人当时肯定都认为他们是爱国的。关于“HUMAN RIGHTS”我想说的是，讲究”人权“的美国前几年先是攻打了阿富汗，后攻打了伊拉克。结果怎么样？我想大家心里都有个数。

昨天在PEKING DUCK上看到了一个很有意思的贴子，发帖者用一则寓言形象的指出了问题的关键所在：

A church sits between 2 towns, one to the east and the other to the west. One day a young man traveled through the east to the west, and stopped by the church and talked to the pastor. “People in the east town are horrible. they lied and cheated… So how are the people in the west town?” The pastor answered, “oh, much the same, my son, much the same.” The young traveler left in dismay.

The next day, another young man went from the west to east and stopped by the church. He had the same conversation with the pastor. “The people in the west town are so wonderful. They smiled at me and treated me well… so how are the people in the east town?” The pastor answered, again, “oh, much the same, my son, much the same.” The 2nd young traveler left happily.

People are much the same in the world. What you see in them, is actually what you see in yourself.

April 18, 2008 @ 5:29 pm | Comment

I don’t use other nations’ mistakes to cover over my own nation’s mistakes.

How could I “cover up” my nation’s sins, havenn’t you alread known all of that?

Tu quoque?

Isn’t this the respose we got when someone dare say “Western bias?”

There was a sign during SF torch relay. “China Lies, Bush Lies. Shame on China, Shame on Bush”. See the difference?

April 18, 2008 @ 6:25 pm | Comment

Many people have a difficult time accepting the China – Nazi Germany comparison despite the obvious parallels. I suspect that this difficulty lies in the common perception of the Nazis as “monsters”. In fact, your average National Socialist was a law-abiding, church-going, tax-paying, upright, hard-working, devoted brother, husband, and father. In other words, they were just like us.

In fact, studies have shown that one can take any group of “normal” people and organize them to commit inhuman acts—Auschwitz, Abu Graib, etc.

China is not unique; The US is not unique.

Many philosophers after WWII theorized that the most likely progression for advanced industrial society is fascism.

I suppose that it’s more comforting to think that China’s future will follow the same path as Taiwan or S. Korea, but this is just wishful thinking and is not borne out by the mob violence of recent days.

April 18, 2008 @ 8:05 pm | Comment

“You don’t get the point. Chinese people have never really been hung up on race. People are more content to just not bug each other”

Whoever said the quote above must not be a Chinese. Chinese culture is one of the most racists I’ve known. I should know because I am a Chinese myself. Try to get married with a white man/woman, and see what the big family says. Or try to befriend someone with black skin, and see if people talk about you. Not bug each other, you say?

Overall, many here sound educated unlike other forums where Chinese mobs shout the B word, F word when it comes to Grace Wang’s case. It’s quite refreshing. However, I am weary of some arguments like x’s, ‘he says, she says, a friend of a friend of a friend says on MSN…’ that Grace Wang is a wack job, especially when it comes from her roomate?! Sheeessshh.. strong argument, batman. NOT. It is irrelevant, and it is never nice to hear a personal attack on someone when that person is incapable of defending herself. If you hear hearsays, keep it to yourself, x. It’s called gossip.

April 18, 2008 @ 8:22 pm | Comment

This makes no sense at all.

She is for the Anti-oppression of Monks ( which seems to be the only thing Westerners know about China )

She is for the Olympics in China.

That makes allota sense. There is nothing wrong with that at all. I beleive many Chinese decendents in the US have no idea of what is going on in China at all.

In fact I beleive the leaders of China would agree with her more then any of these brambled protesters.

What they are yelling about is completely wrong.

April 18, 2008 @ 8:57 pm | Comment

Sometimes I wish for more comments on my blog. Then I come here……

April 18, 2008 @ 8:58 pm | Comment

@ferin

I’m suprised that you are not blocked.

Wow. Please tell me you’re joking.. in the context of Hitler’s policies, this really is not saying much.

Just to clarify, of course I mean that Germans are a constructed race. But you obviously do not know very much about Nazi policy, which set out pseudo-scientific criteria for classifying Germans into sub-races in order to “purify” the people by various means. It took the Nazis almost ten years to come around to design the sinister “final solution”. Before then, they had been dabbling into a number of eugenics programs.

That is why I recoil at your attempts to classify “Han Chinese” into other distinct races. Don’t go there, just don’t

April 18, 2008 @ 8:59 pm | Comment

One wonders after the events of recent weeks and the maniacal outbursts of Chinese students whether US academics are starting to wonder whether their vision of spreading Western, liberal values to the Chinese has been a complete failure.

Cut to scene from the movie “Forrest Gump”:

“They was my ‘Magic Shoes’…. Momma said they’d take me anywhere!”

April 18, 2008 @ 9:11 pm | Comment

@ BOB,

If they have, it’s about time. I’ve known for years that the belief that China was somehow “inevitably” going to evolve into a liberal democracy was quite frankly, bull$hit, and that appeasing China’s government in the pious (but also rather cowardly) hope that this would defuse Chinese nationalism and help Chinese and their government to percieve the Western political and social system in a more positive light was always fundamentally foolish.

Personally, I think a stand should have been taken in Hong Kong in the 1980’s. Once Britain backed out of that one, the ChiComs have thought ever since that they could get away with anything, and it unfortunately seems to have been a reasonable assumption, given the disasterous compromises or outright collapse of Western interests in Asia. The West has effectively given up on trying to enforce IP in China, given up on trying to keep Taiwan from ending up in China’s spehere of influence, given up on forcing China to lower tarriff barriers, while the rest of the world is flooded by Chinese exports…

No wonder the Chinese take us all for patsies.

April 18, 2008 @ 9:29 pm | Comment

@ecodelta
If you are comparing NYT et al with Mr Borat, I rest my case. The MSM is a big joke, exactly my point.
Be careful what you wish for, China will get into the PR game soon enough. When that happens, I am sure you will “unintentionally” come up with other “porcelain” comments that nobody cares.

April 18, 2008 @ 9:32 pm | Comment

@NYT

“If you are comparing NYT et al with Mr Borat, I rest my case”
I was comparing CH with Kazakhstan .

“come up with other “porcelain” comments that nobody cares”
Thanks for answering anyway. 😉

April 18, 2008 @ 9:45 pm | Comment

Michael, I know just what you mean. I can’t stomach reading the comments on my own blog sometimes. I was out the entire day, just got back to see more than 200 comments here, many of them quite scary. Hualian and X and middle finger all confirm my worst fears and eliminate any concern I had at first that maybe I was being too harsh.

This truly is a national phenomenon, not just a matter of overly testosteroned fenqing with a modem and too much time on their hands, I discussed it today and yesterday with white collar, educated-abroad Beijing yuppies, and I was amazed at how they, too, across the board, dismissed Wang as a traitor and felt no sympathy for her or her parents. I love Hualian’s describing Wang’s roommate’s blog as definitive proof that Wang is “schizo.” If that were the case, it would make this episode even more appalling. No matter what she did or said, the reaction to her with physical threats and actual acts of violence against not her but her parents, plus the outpouring of toxic emotions all based on an out-of-context photograph…- well, let’s just say that there really is a maturity issue here. There is nothing like it among societies that are confident with themselves and their position in the world. Such people don’t get whipped up into web-generated frenzies about a Starbucks location or some silly “sex blogger” in Shanghai or a picture of one of their own meeting with “the enemy.” China is growing, improving, rising, flexing its economic muscle, etc., but it still is stuck on being the perennial victim, always going blind with rage that, coincidentally or not, helps serve the interest of their ruling party. You’re yo-yo’s on a string when you you jump on idiotic bandwagons like this, puppets who will keep their puppet-masters in power forever – the puppet-master knows precisely which strings to pull and when to pull them. Hualian and his crowd drive the point home, discarding rational thought for dogma and happily descending into savagery and blood-lust, over a picture. So weak and insecure and malleable. Silly Putty for the CCP to shape ad play with at its whim.

April 18, 2008 @ 9:48 pm | Comment

@richard
my apologies to you if our “maturity/morality/what-have-you” is not up to your “standards” of the more “civilized” countries.
Well, deal with it!
don’t forget there are bandwagons on the other side as well. and are you sure you are not one of them and you are not a yo-yo or puppet of some sort? — I guess you are from a society with “confidence”. confidence and self-righteousness are certainly not in short supply around here.

April 18, 2008 @ 10:16 pm | Comment

>are you sure you are not *one of them* and you are not a yo-yo or puppet of some sort?

LOLWUT

Who is “them”?

April 18, 2008 @ 10:22 pm | Comment

NYT, thanks for further proving all I said. As I wrote yesterday:

I know: it is infuriating and insulting to hear an ungrateful foreigner and a guest criticize his host. I really know. And I know the argument, Who are you to tell the Chinese people what to do and how to think? And my answer is, I am nobody at all. But I know stupid and immature when I see it, and right now you are hitting new peaks of immaturity and stupidity. And although I am nobody and a guest here, I have to say it.

I realize this post touched a nerve, and I understand the knee-jerk impulse for strident, you-are-immature-too self-defense. But keep in ind, I praise many things about China; you are new here so I understand if you’re ignorant. I try really hard to see the good here. And as always on this blog, I am just telling you what I see with my own two eyes. I see a lot of hope and intelligence. When it come to this topic, I see immaturity and bellicosity on a level I’ve never seen elsewhere – not even close. It’s really time to get over it – and that is simply my personal opinion, the opinion of a nobody who like to write about what he sees and hears in China. I may be totally wrong. But the reactions I’ve seen here today convinces me I was right on-target, and that if anything, I underestimated just how deep this insecurity and fear runs. And if I were wrong, you wouldn’t be so upset.

April 18, 2008 @ 10:24 pm | Comment

@peanut butter
I meant to type “*on* one of them (bandwagons).

April 18, 2008 @ 10:28 pm | Comment

@richard

I was discussing the whole situation today with my girlfriend, who is from Shanghai and has been studying in Europe for the past 4 years. She feels that the rational voices are simply being overpowered, or prefer to keep silent. She is one of them. She doesn’t agree with the Tibet protestors, but she does understand that in issues like this, all sides need to be discussed. And so for the past few days she has grown increasingly frustrated with not knowing how to deal with everything that’s going on, and where to place herself. Her solution is to just keep quiet, not go on MSN, and refuse to discuss politics with other people altogether.

April 18, 2008 @ 10:33 pm | Comment

you call it “insecurity and fear”. I call it being suspicious and cynical towards what the MSM sells and how some people trust what the MSM sells them, with good reasons.

April 18, 2008 @ 10:40 pm | Comment

Yes, I am sure. I do not get swept up in emotional causes. I try to analyze what’s going on as best I can, to ask questions and reach my own conclusions. Whenever I witness mob frenzy my inclination is to step away as opposed to jumping on board. I was a journalist for some years and learned to be skeptical and to demand evidence. Having run this blog fairly successfully for more than five years, I’ve also become pretty adept at spotting the angry types who have – yes – abandoned their critical thinking and speak from their raw emotions with little support from their cerebrums. I have lived in the US and Latin America and Europe as well as Beijing, Taipei, HK and Singapore. I can safely say that what I am describing here is unique to mainland China, for reasons I understand and sympathize with. I also want to see China taken more seriously instead of being dismissed by many as a country of crybaby fanatics and indoctrinated zombies. I know that China is not that. But stories like this sure do a lot to further that image, and unfortunately there is still a lot of truth to the argument. No, it’s not a nation of zombies (all such generalizations are flawed); but there are a lot of people who, when certain sensitive topics come up – Taiwan, Tibet, Japan – discard their critical thinking and go onto automatic pilot, sounding like semi-zombies, and sometimes like total zombies. A shame, because it drags down the image of the entire nation. I know, I know – we self-righteous foreign windbags can say whatever we want, we don’t understand China, you don’t care at all what we say or think; yet here you are, and it sure sounds like you care, and it sure sounds like you’re on the defensive. Keep arguing the way you are; the hole just gets dug deeper.

April 18, 2008 @ 10:41 pm | Comment

E, and yes, I do understand there are probably many here who do listen to all sides and believe intellect should reign over emotions. I am just struck by how many people I know – really close friends and people I work with – let their emotions get the better of them when it comes to the radioactive topics of Taiwan, Tibet and Tokyo.

April 18, 2008 @ 10:45 pm | Comment

@E
“She doesn’t agree with the Tibet protestors, but she does understand that in issues like this, all sides need to be discussed.”
“Kudos” to your girlfriend! You did choose well… or was it the other way around 😉

My compliment in both ways!

April 18, 2008 @ 10:50 pm | Comment

@e

I understand completely what you mean, I have met a few people who are extremely disturbed about recent developments. But I would also add that I also perceive a discomfort discussing this with outsiders somehow you can sense that many are thinking: “I’m just as disgusted as you are, but it’s easy for you to criticize this; I’m stuck in this crap.”

April 18, 2008 @ 11:00 pm | Comment

This column is about the US domestic politics, but same thing can be said on the current topic as well.

April 18, 2008 @ 11:20 pm | Comment

@Amban
Her father has a (relatively) high position in a government body, and is of course a party member, but I am able to have surprisingly open discussions about politics with him (for instance about the situation of Taiwan, where I studied for more than a year). Younger Chinese, on the other hand are often not that easy to talk to about these topics, from my POV… (here I use my girlfriend’s tactic: ignore politics).

Having said that, I do know a lot of Chinese people who are my age (mid 20’s) who are not the type of sheep which this story portrays as targeting Grace Wang. My feeling is just that they are keeping quiet at the moment. I know a girl from Beijing whose mother has a high position at the MOFA, and although her family background is not quite clear to me, from what I understand (from my girlfriend amongst others) they are amongst the foremost political families in China. With her I have been able to have very open and frank conversations about any of the common issues (i.e. Tibet, Taiwan, 1989)…

April 18, 2008 @ 11:21 pm | Comment

China might be the “puppet show”, the “democracy” in the west is the “Matrix”.
Don’t worry, it’ll be upgraded.

April 18, 2008 @ 11:56 pm | Comment

It seems we all have a tendency to want to keep ‘domestic’ issues within the confines of home; even when we know there is a problem, a natural tendency is to tell any perceived outsider “butt out, this is none of your business”. This sort of behaviour can be seen in every culture, society, city, state, country, region, province- heck, whatever level of ‘home’ you want to scale your analysis to. I find myself doing this regarding Quebec- as a Quebecker I have strong opinions about politics in my province, and feel no qualms about ripping into the blind nationalism that exists here. However, if someone from Ontario starts going on about “Qweebec”, I find it hard to resist the urge to tell them they don’t really know what they are talking about and to butt out.

In this sense I can understand the point of view of Chinese people who know things are not all rosy in the PRC but still feel uncomfortable/angry that all the dirty laundry has to get aired in public on an international scale (what I don’t agree with is the blind nationalist rage that calls for purging traitors and all that nonsense). I think it’s just basic human territorialism, like all other similar cases. We can’t help ourselves.

But what messes everything up is that it is becoming ever more difficult to identify the clear boundaries of “home” to stay in or out of. China and the “West” (I’m really starting to hate that term, but it just makes typing quicker, hehe) are much more intertwined than extremists on either side would ever care to admit- the political grand-standing looks ludicrous when one considers the level of complex economic links. The US is one of China’s best customers; China is one of Australia’s best customers.
There is a high possibility that a North American networking company had a major role in installing the very internet network inside China that is used for trashing the “West” (or, on a more positive note, exposing brutal corruption). Whenever I criticize China’s environmental wasteland policy, I’m doing it on a laptop that is a product of it. It’s very close to impossible not to be a hypocrite in our day, but that doesn’t mean we still shouldn’t discuss the issues rationally and see what can be done to make things better.

On the other side of things, an issue like Tibet couldn’t help but burst out onto the international stage despite technically being an “internal” one to the Chinese state. First problem, you’ve got a bunch of refugees in another country with a shadow government.
Second, is that much like in trade and economics, political and social protest can take advantage of comparable advantage- some jurisdictions on this planet are much more open than others in terms of freedom of expression, protest and so on. If you have a bone to pick with an authoritarian regime that will come after you every time you try to open your mouth, it’s not rocket science that you might gravitate towards jurisdictions where your voice can be heard. Especially when the authoritarian regime you have a problem with parades itself through these countries in a not-too-subtle chest-puffing circus. Again, not rocket science.

And for the record, I’m not some Free Tibet advocate. To be brutally honest, the issue of Tibetan independence leaves me completely indifferent. I think it would be nicer to see positive changes in ALL of China, not just some mountainous remotely populated corner of it. And maybe that’s why it is tempting for the CCP to fan the flames of ultranationalism, because the last thing they need at this point is a growing tide amongst ALL citizens against corruption, land grabs and corporate lawlessness. Better to frame it as some life-and-death struggle against evil separatists, so the average guy in Hubei doesn’t muse “Hey, these Tibetans have a point, these local bastards stole my land and built a Barbie factory on it too!”. Just my humble opinion, one of billions.

April 19, 2008 @ 12:12 am | Comment

Richard,

Thank you for everything you have written above. I spent years working as a China analyst in D.C. I have always tried to represent a reasonable counterbalance to the Bill Gertz crowd and politicians who are absolutely sure that the “Chicoms” are plotting to take over the Panama Canal. This has never been easy because discussions about the China threat quickly get heated. Then I read articles like the NYT piece on Grace Wang and I remember how much emotion there is on the Chinese side surrounding Tibet, Taiwan, and patriotism in general. I know the emotions on both sides are deep rooted and it is impossible to simply say grow up. However, it is always refreshing to read someone respond to the hotheads in a calm, cool, articulate manner.

April 19, 2008 @ 12:33 am | Comment

I just read over the above thread more closely and I think that a specific way that both sides can grow up is by staying on topic. It’s depressing how often a discussion about Tibet turns into, “Well, how about what you Americans are doing in Iraq.” The same thing happens on the Western side. I have been in many discussions about the cross-strait military balance which devolves into a discussion about the Chinese government’s “evilness”. Then I get accused of being soft on tyranny and not loving the USA enough. There is something about these discussions that turn people into children.

April 19, 2008 @ 12:52 am | Comment

Er, Richard,…. I think you may be coming down a bit harshly on Hualian. S/he seemed one of the more reasonable commentators to me! You also ascribed some rubbish posted by X to Hualian in error. Sorry, don’t follow this blog so maybe there’s ‘history’ involved – but judging by this thread s/he seemed fairly rational..

April 19, 2008 @ 1:03 am | Comment

@richard
“And if I were wrong, you wouldn’t be so upset.”
Like I said above: if China is a “puppet show”, the the west is the “Matrix”. Call me a cynic if you want. (btw, I don’t like the word”west” either, but it’s easy)
I am not upset. I just think it’s pointless and strange for someone who lives in the Matrix to tell the puppets the obvious — that their moves are awkward, that they are on strings, that they are not as slick and smooth as the ones in the Matrix. I find it a waste of emotion and energy to feel depressed about how the puppets cannot behave like those in the Matrix.
It’s too easy to point out the obvious. It might be more energy-efficient to go after the harder question: how the Matrix is controlled. Sooner or later, we are all going to live in the one big Matrix together, happily ever after.

April 19, 2008 @ 1:24 am | Comment

@Peanut Butter,

We discussed in a thread months ago in detail both French and Portugese Africa. I fully agree: things can change.

That’s not to imply, however, that things MUST change, and that Tibet will follow in the above model. After all, history also shows us a long list of territories that at one time had independence movements… but later extinguished one way or another.

@richard,

You used two words: bellicose, and immature.

I agree with bellicose. I think that’s a very apt description of the attitudes of many Chinese at this particular moment.

You’ve previously mocked on this blog the effort of China to clean itself up for the Olympics… everything from piping in potable water, to asking grandmas/grandpas to learn a few words of English, to lectures about wearing shirts and getting in line for buses. I know in your mind this was the action of an authoritarian government that simply gets its way… but take a new look at the China around you.

The Chinese people aren’t puppets or sheep.

The Chinese government was able to implement these policies because the vast majority of Chinese *accepted* them, because the vast majority of Chinese wanted to look good for the world, wanted the Olympics to be a huge success.

As far as immature… that’s a value judgment I don’t fully share. See it from the Chinese perspective. Where’s the maturity in trying to extinguish the Olympic torch? And yet not only isolated individuals, but many Western editorials + politicians repeated the message (or at least its sentiment).

April 19, 2008 @ 1:24 am | Comment

@Stuart
A couple more generations of CCP compulsory denouncements of everything DL should take care of any thought differences that are troubling you.

Thanks for admitting you think everyone in China is an idiot.

@Peter
Also, you ought to put your garbage in the bin not throw it out the windows 🙂

It needs a dramatic death. Several seconds of freefall and a big splat.

@kevin
Of course, CCT, the Dalai Lama needs to give further concessions

If he wants to go back, yes.

Thanks for voicing your support for Tibet, Taiwan

And Lakotah Republic, Yakutia, Nunavut, Powhatan Confederation, etc.

@Peanut
North Korea, Burma, Zimbabwe

These places were crapholes to begin with. China just came in and started doing business with them because no one else would. Sanctions don’t work.

No wonder the Chinese take us all for patsies.

You got to dump chemical and electronic waste in China and access to millions of slave laborers so don’t complain. I guess the “West” chose to sell its soul to Satan. Interacting with China wasn’t about charity or goodwill. It was just about profit and taking what you can get.

@BOB
mob violence of recent days.

None of it by Chinese.

@Pao2
should know because I am a Chinese myself

Your family is just weird then.

@Amban
It took the Nazis almost ten years to come around to design the sinister “final solution”.

No. There was even more before that; stuff written by Arthur de Gobineau, Lothrop Stoddard, etc influenced white racial thinking for hundreds of years. I don’t see the precedent for China. Breaking the “Han” down into separate races will lessen the impact of “Han chauvinism”. If you really think Chinese people are capable of creating death camps for eachother in the modern day then you’re crazy. Genetic studies replace pseudoscience now too.

@richard

dismissed Wang as a traitor and felt no sympathy for her or her parents.

In every Chinese forum I’ve been to the fenqing are again a minority of young men (like the Tibetan riots). There are just as many people telling them to STFU, and a lot of people just avoid the discussion altogether because it could give them an aneurysm.

But I suppose a lot of people in China would keep quiet for the time being.. they probably don’t want to get burned by the hordes of internet retards. It’s always better to wait for people to calm down a little.

April 19, 2008 @ 1:30 am | Comment

Here’s a crowd forming in front of Carrefour, in Hefei/Anhui province:

http://www.mitbbs.com/article2/ChinaNews/31390430_253.jpg
http://www.mitbbs.com/article2/ChinaNews/31390430_92960.jpg

Keep in mind this is an arbitrary weekday, still weeks away from the “official” boycott scheduled for May 1st.

It always makes me laugh when people insist the Chinese government should be pressured, because it can make a deal for Taiwanese or Tibetan independence.

Bullshit. I can only assume that the people who say that don’t know the historical origins and significance of the May Fourth movement.

If Hu Jintao and Wen Jiabao allowed Tibetan independence, Zhongnanhai would be on fire.

April 19, 2008 @ 1:31 am | Comment

By the way, do you know why the largest protests so far are in Hefei (known for its peasantry, kejida, and little else) and Kunming (Yunnan province, on the border with Vietnam/Myanmar)? Because these places are far, far from active central government control.

Beijing is locked down. Activists planning protests and rallies are being visited in private, and politely asked to reconsider the implications of their actions. I can only assume the same is happening in all of the top-level major cities, like Shanghai, Shenzhen, Guangzhou.

But at the distant corners of the empire, it’s more difficult getting control. I really don’t know where this movement is going from here, I really don’t. These movements can only snowball. Beijing activists have been polite in response to government requests so far, but passions will only rise after seeing videos like this:

http://www.56.com/n_v165_/c34_/26_/11_/herain_56_/zhajm_120852437719_/224000_/0_/33069172.swf

They’re chanting dizhi jialefu.

April 19, 2008 @ 1:40 am | Comment

This will all hurt China more than anyone else, this could lead to a perception that China is volatile and unstable and spook investors. If I was the Chinese government, I’d be looking for ways to shut this down fast.

April 19, 2008 @ 1:51 am | Comment

NYT,
“””””””All I am saying is that even those who practice meditation could become quite hostile to different opinions, especially on very emotional issues. “”””””

Hey, your point is not invalid, yeah, Falun Gong people are not all perfect, but I do want to let you know that the zhongnanhai demonstration was not about a newspaper having a different opinion than them, it was because there was a systematic crackdown appraoching by various means including the beating and imprisonment of 40 practitioners. So it was not that they were encrosching on peoples freedom of opinion NYT, and they were not hostile. This is important. These people are being brutalized and hated on by people in China because of false information about what happened along the way, so because of the way the Chinese treat them, I do feel the need to clarify and try to ease up the effects of the propaganda against them. I’m sure you can understand that…

There’s a difference between simply sympathizing with the plight of the Tibetan people, and being a fool and publicly defecating on the dignity of one’s own country in front of foreigners. I am a Mongolian Chinese minority, my private sympathies are not with the nationalists but the Dalai Lama, but I have a right to be proud of my country just like any other person in the world, and she had it coming. By advocating support for a movement that is not only attacking the Chiense government but China as a whole, she is a traitor of all of China. The Chinese people have a right to guard against backstabbers who are willing to assist foreigners to hijack the dreams of the Chinese people.

Purge all traitors, and let the storm break loose!

April 19, 2008 @ 1:53 am | Comment

North Korea, Burma, Zimbabwe
—

These places were crapholes to begin with. China just came in and started doing business with them because no one else would. Sanctions don’t work.
—
China had a role in creating modern Zimbabwe, North Korea, and Burma. Before China got their hands on Zimbabwe by funding their communist movements, it was Africa’s richest country on a per-capita basis. As for North Korea, well, anyone who has been there can tell you the stark contrast between it and its’ southern neighbour… and as for Burma, well, it’s effectively a Chinese satrapy.

April 19, 2008 @ 1:59 am | Comment

Oh, yeah, speaking of Zimbabwe, a shipment of Chinese arms has just arrived in Durban ready to be transported up to Zim in time for Bob’s war against the MDC:

http://plus4chan.org/boards/n/res/8989.html

April 19, 2008 @ 2:08 am | Comment

India does a lot of business with Burma too. Zimbabwe turned into a piece of crap when Mugabe came into power, it has nothing to do with China.

April 19, 2008 @ 2:09 am | Comment

Oh man, I totally screwed up by putting some quote of some one who I totally disagree with here at the end of my last post.. Oh geez, oh well… Wow, I know you must be busy Richard, but if you have the chance can you just take out that paragraph? If possible…

I dont understand so many things about the evil communist mentality.. In the paragraph above, they wouls sympathize with the plight of the Tibetan people, but doig so in public warrants a person to be purged as a traitor??? What a screwed up idea of dignity. By the definition of dignity that I understand it means that a person has values and strength. China at the moment has clout and that is much different than dignity. Anyway I was going to say that why do you want to purge someone who didnt do anything wrong? Because she wasnt acting like a absolutist ANIMAL then she is wrong??? Absolutism does not give your people dignity it makes you stupid. Openly criticising things that are wrong is cool, it can help solve the problem, but you nationalist would prefer to say ;’yeah, we know there are problems BUT STAY OUT OF IT, or IF YOU MENTION THOSE PROBLEMS YOU ARE A TRAITOR AND YOU MUST BE POOPED ON. Why cant Chinese people mention the problems and adress them? Because it would show weakness? Actually it would show strength. This religious fervor for defending even the bad things is really weak and soooo undignified, its childish and it is the product of the stupidity that the CCP has indoctrinated into the Chinese minds.

In Chinese culture there was wisdom, try going with that, also peacefulness, tolerance and caring, until you can at least attempt to have some good values, you ARE NOT CHINESE JUST A BIG GERMAN RUSSIAN COMMUNIST.

April 19, 2008 @ 2:10 am | Comment

China was the largest sponsor of Zimbabwe’s communist movements in the 1960’s and ’70s… this is common knowledge.

April 19, 2008 @ 2:11 am | Comment

Well, I guess there’s always Haiti and Papa Doc if you want an American example.

April 19, 2008 @ 2:23 am | Comment

Not that Papa Doc was a great guy or anything, but:

1) Haiti has been a rubbish country since independence in the 18th century, in fact, it has almost always been the poorest country in the Western Hemisphere, whereas Mugabe inherited a country that was the richest in Africa on a per-capita basis and managed to turn it into one of the most wretched;

2) Papa Doc’s actions have not resulted in millions of people dying by starvation.

Also, LERN2/TU QUOQUE

April 19, 2008 @ 2:27 am | Comment

If China wants to get into angry mode, go ahead. It needs the world more than the world needs it. We were fine before China opened up, and we will be fine again without China, even though yes there will be a bit of transitional period.

It’s probably going to be good for all sides, as they don’t seem to like the West, and we can’t understand their extremism. And the environment will be better too without the pollution caused by the production of cheap goods that you and I enjoyed.

April 19, 2008 @ 2:44 am | Comment

@Paddy,

You’re assuming that China will disappear if it rejects the Western world. Dangerous assumption.

As far as not liking the West… for at least 3 generations of Chinese, the greatest individual goal has been to visit, study, work, and even live in the West. There’s nothing here that’s about disliking the West, or even Western values. We aren’t Islamic fundamentalists straining to return to our Islamic laws, so don’t mistaken us such. Again, the vast majority of Chinese were looking with anticipation to the West’s visit to Beijing this summer… and not because we think we out-shine the West.

But while we like the West, this doesn’t translate into obeying the West. And that’s what we’re talking about, today.

The Chinese have no agenda when it comes to French/British/American policy; Americans can keep torturing insurgents in Cuba, French can keep their North African population ignorant and poor. It’s not our business; our priority is just to trade. The West, however, clearly has an agenda when it comes to Chinese policy. For some it’s eliminating authoritarian Communism; for others its about an independent Tibet/Taiwan, etc, etc.

For that matter, eliminating authoritarian Communism has support from many Chinese, but the specific mode of elimination is very much an issue requiring deep thought. But as far as Tibet/Taiwan… over our 1.3 billion dead bodies.

April 19, 2008 @ 3:09 am | Comment

@CCT:

Clearly, though, it’s not JUST about trade, as the recent rage about Cafferty’s “thugs and goons” remark shows. It seems to be also about getting everyone to show “respect” to China, in a way which is very eerily reminiscent of Islamic fundamentalists who demand excessive “respect” be shown to their religion.

April 19, 2008 @ 3:14 am | Comment

@CCT

Bullshit. I can only assume that the people who say that don’t know the historical origins and significance of the May Fourth movement.

You need to read up on Chinese history. It’s not hard to understand why the Japanese take-over of the ancient province of Shandong made people take to the streets. But no one got fired up by the possibility of independence of Tibet back then in the way people do now and it was possible to discuss different futures for Tibet. Even Mao himself did not exclude the possibility of independence for Tibet.

If Hu Jintao and Wen Jiabao allowed Tibetan independence, Zhongnanhai would be on fire.

Possibly, just like the US embassy was burned down in 1999 and then rebuilt. People have been crying wolf so many times that I have lost count. Life will go on, independence or not.

When the Japanese government was seen as “soft” on the West in the early 20th century, people took to the streets as well. When know how that story ended. There is still time to back out of this abyss that China is finding itself in, but if nothing is done you will see a Chinese Milosevic in the near future, and a Seselj as well.

April 19, 2008 @ 3:20 am | Comment

from the quote that accidentally looks like I said it:

“”””””By advocating support for a movement that is not only attacking the Chiense government but China as a whole, she is a traitor of all of China. The Chinese people have a right to guard against backstabbers who are willing to assist foreigners to hijack the dreams of the Chinese people.””””””””

Ms. Wang wa not advocating support for a movement that was attacking China as a whole, no way. The Tibetans consider the Chinese as victims of communist repression as well, they blame the CCP, which is of course logical, actually the Tibetans are being averly cautious, because considering the suppor that the Han give to the CCP, the Tibetans could blame the Han CCPers, but they dont do thaat publicly, they just ask for some rights and some of them call for independance, that is not an attack and Chinese people. If you want Taiwan, Hong kong and Tibet, listen to them and realize the CCP is not an accepted overlord for them. Its nothing against Han, the CCP would have you believe they are against you.

Also, you say the Chinese have some dream? What dream is it that all Chinese share and feel they have the right to? So when it comes to this ‘dream’ you feel you have rights, but when it comes to freedom of speach and opinion, there is no right for that? Isnt that quite unfair? You have the right to peacefully do what you will without breaking laws (real laws) and so does everyone else. People who honestly try to speak freely about the CCP and China are living their dream, the dream of truth and justice. Can you not respect that? And you ‘dream’ in order to accomplish your dream, do you have to throw poo on innocent peoples homes? Do you have to hate? Does your dream world rely on depriving others of free speach and thought and religion? Does your dream world depend on the thought police and laogai? I am just wondering why you think people cant have the basic right to voice tolerance and peaceful dialogue but you think YOU have the right to crush dissidents under the violence, hate and lies of the CCP. Do you have the right to crush Falun Gong? Do you have the right to come down on innocent Chinese 1989? Do you have the right to steel farmers land? So you think you have all these rights, but people like Ms. Wang dont even have the right to make a simple show of TOLERANCE? what the hey???

April 19, 2008 @ 3:20 am | Comment

Good Heavens! I usually resist posting during the day, but some readers please don’t try to speak for all Chinese people. Please just do NOT do it!

Honestly, one hopes usually, in posting anything on a website, to convince someone else of something. Don’t waste precious moments of life on saying things that will have the opposite effect. The honest truth is that individuals most pro-China’s comments are horrible at persuading and sympathizing with others, including actual pro-China people. Some people associated with this site get paid money, by Westerners and Chinese, to win hearts and minds. Their techniques are pretty darn good: logical relevent sequential arguments, no ad hominem, no red herring, etc… The writer of this article himself can probably out PR the number of interesting characters using just Pig Latin sign language.

April 19, 2008 @ 3:37 am | Comment

@CCT

Good to see you back.

So do you think that the PRC’s government demanding an apology from Jack Cafferty was more about saving face in the eyes of their own people than it was about perserving international face?

“The West, however, clearly has an agenda when it comes to Chinese policy. For some it’s eliminating authoritarian Communism; for others its about an independent Tibet/Taiwan, etc, etc.”

I think you’re really overestimating how much people care. The free Tibet protesters and people advocating a boycott of the Olympics are still a tiny minority. It’s true that the PRC is widely regarded as an unpleasent third world dictatorship, but there are lots of unpleasent third world dictatorships, and most people don’t lose too much sleep over it. As you yourself said, the American government is not that interested in improving the lives of foreigners unless it benefits their own people, and this is historically true of the American public as well.
Tibet is really not worth anybody’s time, but I do wish more free worlders would pay attention to the Republic of China.

April 19, 2008 @ 3:40 am | Comment

in a way which is very eerily reminiscent of Islamic fundamentalists who demand excessive “respect”

Except no Chinese person has carried out a fatwa murder, burned down buildings and cars, participated in suicide bombings, beheaded anyone, or even really assault anyone.

Horrible comparison.

Also, LERN2/TU QUOQUE

Shut up. Tu quoque doesn’t apply here, you’re arguing for the “free” American way over the CCP way (both of which are horrible). You make the mistake in supporting America and Britain’s geopolitical stance unconditionally.

This has nothing to do with morality.

April 19, 2008 @ 3:43 am | Comment

Still @CCT
“But as far as Tibet/Taiwan… over our 1.3 billion dead bodies.”
You really think the PRC’s people would be that united when the chips are down?

April 19, 2008 @ 3:43 am | Comment

It needs the world more than the world needs it.

You make the foolish assumption that the whole world is with you. Last I checked, Muslims do not like Americans and Africans do not like Europeans. Latin America, Russia and Southeast Asia don’t seem to really take a side either.

You need China more than China needs you. You’re probably right about how every country is dependent on the world as a whole (?) though.

April 19, 2008 @ 3:46 am | Comment

@Amban,

The US embassy was burned down in 1999? ~a look of total confusion~

If China was a democracy, I could all but guarantee that the next elected president would be a Milosevic, a Chen Shui-bian, or a Hitler. A popular nationalist who would make defending national sovereignty its ultimate goal, erasing racial autonomy, and making China a color-blind society.

As far as your attempt to distinguish between Shandong, Taiwan, and Tibet… the distinction might make sense in your mind, but it doesn’t in the Chinese mind.

Right now every “reasonable” Chinese with a conscience is trying their best to convince people to boycott Carrefour rationally… stay off the streets. But it’s a very, very difficult sell.

April 19, 2008 @ 3:46 am | Comment

>you’re arguing for the “free” American way over the CCP way (both of which are horrible)

Yeah, every day I way up and remember what a horrible life I lead, enjoying free speech, a full government scholarship, clean air, a warm home… Oh Lord, what have I done to deserve this!

April 19, 2008 @ 3:49 am | Comment

Oh Lord, what have I done to deserve this!

Oh I don’t know, raped the whole world, collapsed colonial governments over people’s heads, killed millions in the Middle East, starved babies with sanctions, funded civil wars, supported dictators, enslaved people, killed off an entire branch of humanity, etc.

Take your pick.

April 19, 2008 @ 3:55 am | Comment

@CCT

The US embassy was burned down in 1999?

You’re right. But it was pretty rough back then and it has been rough at other times as well. Life goes on.

As far as your attempt to distinguish between Shandong, Taiwan, and Tibet… the distinction might make sense in your mind, but it doesn’t in the Chinese mind.

I doubt that you are right, but it has not always been the case that these parts are indistinguishable. That is the work of the KMT and the CCP.

Right now every “reasonable” Chinese with a conscience is trying their best to convince people to boycott Carrefour rationally… stay off the streets.

Before the tragedy in Lhasa and its repercussions took place, I posted a contribution expressing my doubts that China is ready for the Olympics, given the tendency of some people to take to the streets because of real and perceived slights. It seems that I was right. If people are so thin-skinned that they can’t handle a single individual expressing dissent on the Tibet issue, I doubt that people can handle a contested medal in August. And there will be disputes, just like any other Olympics. If things continue this way and things escalate to physical attacks on “enemies of the people”, people with vote with their feet and not attend the Olympics. It’s yours to lose.

April 19, 2008 @ 3:59 am | Comment

I’ve been meaning to ask you, Ferin, what is it that you do like? What form of government, if any, do you support? Is there any nation that has got it ‘right’, in your opinion?

April 19, 2008 @ 3:59 am | Comment

>If China was a democracy, I could all but guarantee that the next elected president would be a Milosevic, a Chen Shui-bian, or a Hitler.

???

OK, if you really believe this to be the case, what would you do if you were in our shoes?

April 19, 2008 @ 4:02 am | Comment

One that doesn’t kill babies for oil. But seriously, probably one that involves selecting leaders and government officials more through merit rather than popularity contests/beauty pageants.

April 19, 2008 @ 4:05 am | Comment

China’s Human Flesh Search Engine:

http://zonaeuropa.com/200804b.brief.htm#005

The internet mobs are getting seriously ridiculous. If this doesn’t worry you as free people, I don’t know what will.

April 19, 2008 @ 4:16 am | Comment

I don’t know how you can draw a conclusion that Chinese are irrational because Ms Wang recieved some threaten email. First of all, those emails are not authorized by Chinese people, if those emails do exist. Second, from most web sites I read, some people questions the real intention of Ms. Wang, (some of her schoolmates gave out proof that she has a history of making up stories of her life), however, most people seem to believe she is just a bad apple and no need to do anything extreme. In Chinese, we called her Tiao4 Liang2 Xiao2 Chou3.

April 19, 2008 @ 4:16 am | Comment

@CCT, I read many posts after Grace Wang’s episode from Chinese students in the USA that say ‘let’s work in corporations in the USA like NASA, and steal their knowledge back to China’. What disgraceful thieves. Is that the kind of respect Chinese give to countries that provide them with investments and technology? It’s not even about Tibet anymore, it’s about China growing into a big bully. If China is to be the world leader, I have the right to be concerned, because direct or indirectly, it will affect my life as someone who lives outside China.

The only reason Chinese in Beijing welcome the West is to show off. Quite ironic considering that most of the Olympic sites that they are so proud of are designed by Western companies, such as Foster. If anyone here follows the documentary on how the Beijing airport was made, when the project was started, the English architects were surprised that poor people were still living in the site where the airport was supposed to be. Chinese authorities of course removed those people from their homes. It’s a typical Chinese government way of doing business. Do we want to live under a tyrant such as that? I am willing to live in depression for a while if we are to stop trading with China than living a comfortable life with cheap goods that are gained in an immoral way.

April 19, 2008 @ 4:29 am | Comment

‘let’s work in corporations in the USA like NASA, and steal their knowledge back to China’.

Probably written by white nationalists and neo-Nazis.

The only reason Chinese in Beijing welcome the West is to show off.

To their own people.

April 19, 2008 @ 4:41 am | Comment

259 posts so far and counting! We are approaching an olympic record!

And the my flaming indicator is within manageable levels. Maybe it is a good sign 😉

April 19, 2008 @ 4:46 am | Comment

@Ferin,
Lol, of course they are not Chinese. *I hope you do understand sarcasm* They can’t do wrong in your estimation can they?

April 19, 2008 @ 4:47 am | Comment

I’ve seen this kind of thing on Chinese BBS’s too. Realistically, how likely is it there are that many Chinese-speaking stormfags?

April 19, 2008 @ 4:52 am | Comment

They usually type in mock Chinglish, not Chinese.

They can’t do wrong in your estimation can they?

Oh because the great American race would never stoop to something that despicable!

April 19, 2008 @ 5:00 am | Comment

NO U

April 19, 2008 @ 5:01 am | Comment

This truly is a national phenomenon, not just a matter of overly testosteroned fenqing with a modem and too much time on their hands

Up until now, most people’s impression of the Chinese government is that it does not represent its people, hence any problems between Western countries and China are problems with the CCP, not the Chinese people. I’m not sure that will be the case in future, once people see how much support the CCP has for repressive action in Tibet, threatening of Taiwan etc. The Olympics may be the big event which brings all this out in the open.

This whole Tibet/Olympics affair worries me, and I can see it changing and hardening people’s attitudes on both sides.

April 19, 2008 @ 5:07 am | Comment

@Paddy,

NASA isn’t a corporation, by the way.

As far as learning knowledge and then returning to build our country… absolutely. I see nothing wrong with that, as long as it’s done in a legal way. The best and brightest Chinese minds have been doing exactly this for almost a century; we’re envious of the West, we want to have what the West has, we want to learn what the West is doing… but that doesn’t mean we have to abandon our countrymen.

What’s wrong with that? Take a look at the terms of the student visas that allow many Chinese to go overseas and study; we’re explicitly not allowed to stay and emigrate. The path to emigration from a student visa is very long, and very difficult. In other words, forcing Chinese students/researchers back to China is what the United States wants as well.

Without a doubt, what has happened in the last 2 months has made many overseas Chinese reconsider their priorities.

@Pao2,

I’ve been concerned about internet mobs long before the Grace Wang affair. Internet mobs are a terror in general, not just in political affairs. I posted about this topic on this very blog: I said China absolutely needs shimingzhi – real name registration for all netizens. Of course, predictably, that concept was attacked by liberal defenders of “freedom”.

@Peanut Butter,

If the West actually cared about my opinion, I’d tell them that what the Chinese people want isn’t a threat to anyone in Europe or the United States. There’s no equivalence to Nazi rhetoric in China; no one has talked about conquering the world and destroying our enemies. All we want is a strong, modern country that we build through the fruit of our own labor.

If the people of the West are interested, they absolutely have an opportunity to influence the process. Influence the process *intellectually*.

– Use your strength and modernity as a roadmap for China’s development; invite more Chinese students to study in your law schools and political science departments. As I said, for generations all the Chinese young have wanted to do is emulate what has been successful in the West.

– When people like Kevin Rudd (or Bill Clinton) speak to college students in Beijing in the role of teachers, their message is heard, and their message makes a difference. Chinese have a great deal of respect for our teachers; it’s in our cultural blood.

People like Sarkozy, Gordon Brown, and even Nancy Pelosi should make speaking at Chinese universities a monthly affair. Engage with the Chinese people as equals.

– Alternatively, if you want a nationalist Milosevic-type government in China, then continue with the “pressure” path. Tell us how we’re to run our country, and threaten us with all sorts of consequences if we don’t agree.

(I literally laughed out loud when Sarkozy’s human rights minister sort-of announced his three conditions for attending the Beijing Olympics; who the fuck does he think he is.)

April 19, 2008 @ 5:08 am | Comment

@Peter,

I completely agree with you. If there’s one thing that I *hope* has been achieved over the last month (and the reason I personally went into the streets of San Francisco), it’s to get rid of the ridiculous misconception that the Communist government run a totalitarian country.

Lack of human rights and/or lack of democracy is a Communist government issue. But Tibet and Taiwan are Chinese issues, not Communist issues.

If this truth offends the people of the West… frankly, truth is far better than living a false lie. No true friendship can be built on the basis of such a deep lie. It’s better for all involved that the West understand us on this fundamental issue, even if it means we’re no longer friends.

April 19, 2008 @ 5:14 am | Comment

Strangely enough, I agree. What I don’t agree is on how to respond to this.

April 19, 2008 @ 5:18 am | Comment

@Peanut Butter,

Respond to what? What’s happening in the streets in China now? There’s nothing you/I any single individual out there can “respond” to this. I am now one of 1.3 billion, and you are one of 300 million. There’s nothing academic about this any more. There’s nothing more democratic than mob rule.

We might’ve been more influential as opinion “leaders” before all of this erupted.. when this was just a snow-flake, and not an avalanche. But now we’re just watching a train wreck in slow motion.

I don’t want to be too melodramatic. There’s always the hope that the Communist Party has the flexibility and ability to pull China back from the brink; both Hu Jintao and Wen Jiabao are respected and beloved, and I believe they have *some* room to crackdown against extremists without appearing to be race traitors themselves.

In Chinese internet forums at least, opinions are running about 95% – 5% against the protests in Anhui. But of course, in a city like Beijing, even 5% of the population still translates into a million people. All we can do is wait and see.

But for god’s sake, I hope Western politicians don’t escalate the situation by appealing to populist sentiments amongst their own populations. The Parisian mayor is about to give honorary citizenship to the Dalai Lama I hear; if that’s not a powder keg, I don’t know what is.

April 19, 2008 @ 5:27 am | Comment