[…] Richard wrote an interesting post today on China’s Word/Phrase of the Year. Here’s a quick excerpt: […]

June 24, 2008 @ 7:16 am | Pingback

So far, I’ve heard much complaining about the policy being more tightly enforced… including requiring various forms of documentation, returning to home country to apply, etc, etc. But for those who meet all of the requirements to the letter, I personally have not heard of arbitrary denials.

Am I wrong on that point? If there are truly arbitrary denials of tourist visas for foreigners with proper hotel reservations and travel documents, then that’s clearly unacceptable.

But otherwise, I don’t see how Chinese’s new visa policy is any harsher than American and European visa policy… in fact, I think it’d be far better. All Chinese at least are well-aware of the arbitrary visa denial policy in American embassies, leading to rejection rates well upwards of 50%+.

I also don’t believe having a non-existent visa policy (which had been the status quo) is the same thing as being “open” to the world. I don’t know whether I would’ve timed this for months before the Olympics… but I would’ve implemented these policies eventually.

June 24, 2008 @ 7:32 am | Comment

Getting through security at a US airport now is a descent into hell
what? i can see the whole civil liberties argument and how it does little to actually improve security, but how is it really hell?
also, while they might take away your toothpaste, at least the standard of what is allowed and isn’t is completely public and widely available for you to see before you hit the security checkpoint.
also, ita with tang buxi.

June 24, 2008 @ 7:36 am | Comment

A dirty little Jewish hippie living in lower Manhattan went to a lecture by the Dalai Lama, and subsequently discovered the meaning of life.

He decided to visit China during the Olympics, with the plan running butt naked into the stadium during the opening ceremonies unfurling a free Tibet flag, thinking that’ll make a great story back home in his neighborhood gay bar.

Now he discovered that he needed to provide financial documentation and proof of residency and this paper and that paper when going to China, oh fuck it he said it’s clearly not worth it.

Another pest gone during the Olympics. Easy and simple.

As for US visa policies, haha well, do you really want me to comment on it? I don’t think you do.

June 24, 2008 @ 7:48 am | Comment

I wouldn’t equate something with such global reach like the subprime mismanagement to China’s visa policy.

IMO that is a very “foreign centric” view.

June 24, 2008 @ 8:32 am | Comment

I nominate the phrase “SACRED FLAME”. In defense of my nomination, I suggest that the Beijing Olympics will be remembered for the controversy that surrounded it – in particular, the unseemly long and gaudy torch relay and its associated imagery – e.g. the paramilitary men in blue (“torch protectors”), the crowds of angry, flag-waving Chinese youth, the constant demands for apologies for “hurting the feelings of the Chinese people”, the threats of boycotts, etc. I’m sure that I’m not alone in wishing that it were all over already. In fact, I’m quite sure that many in the IOC privately regret ever supporting China’s bid.

I also believe that “Angry Youth” (fenqing 憤青), “Don’t be too CNN” (做人別太CNN), and “A jackal in monk’s robes” also deserve consideration.

June 24, 2008 @ 9:47 am | Comment

Well, if somebody really is determined to cause trouble he or she won’t be hindered by restrictions on tourists and other visas like hotel reservations. It’s just mafan for anybody else.

What these restrictions really do is hurting businesses (mostly Chinese I guess) but that doesn’t bother Hongxing an thelikes as long as foreigners get problems. Furthermore it’s just bad PR for China. One world one dream … ha!

One of the things that make these restrictions so Chinese as I see it is the sudden and unannounced start – and denials that anything had happened even weeks after the start by official China. I guess it’s one of the examples were one branch of the government is issuing new regulations without consulting or even telling all the others, just to iussue a regulation an to show that they are doing something.

China Herald had an interesting take on the matter recently:
http://www.chinaherald.net/2008/06/explaining-chinas-visa-policies-more.html

I myself am hurt by this great new policy as I am between jobs. My visa expires next Tuseday and I will have to go back to Germany. If and when I can come back (what I really want, I like it here) I don’t know. It’s a little more difficult to find a job in China from Germany than when you are acctually here.

Finally I would have loved to be here during the Olympics to see how China welcomes the world even though I don’t have tickets. That now doesn’t seem very realistic.

Cheers!

June 24, 2008 @ 11:41 am | Comment

“A dirty Jewish hippie”?!

HongXing, you do realize that you you’re not making a great argument here. In fact, you sound like an ignorant racist. I’m sure that’s not your intention.

June 24, 2008 @ 2:21 pm | Comment

As an outsider, the China visa policy makes sense to me. It is entirely about stage managing the Olympics, and a reflection of the fact that political arguments about stability have overridden the economic arguments about the benefits of forign immigration. Things will surely settle down (in an odd, chinese, way) after the Olympics.

If anything, i think that US visa and security issues are far more irrational than the current situation in China. To be honest, at least in China you can get round the beaurocracy with patience and wit. I don’t really want to set foot in the US again after my last experience at JFK airport – terrifying is not the word. Give me clipped hotel reservations and quadruple stamped permits any day of the week.

June 24, 2008 @ 2:40 pm | Comment

HongXing, you do realize that you you’re not making a great argument here. In fact, you sound like an ignorant racist. I’m sure that’s not your intention.

Lisa, that post was just dripping with sarcasm! 😉

It is entirely about stage managing the Olympics, and a reflection of the fact that political arguments about stability have overridden the economic arguments about the benefits of forign immigration.

neil, how can China show itself as being “opening up to the world” if it forces foreigners to leave? It’s not as if you can live on cushy government payouts – you work or you don’t live.

The visa policy is a big mistake, as the expats were one good way of presenting a more positive image to China. People like richard are honest but usually mostly enthusiastic about the country. Foreign visitors are most likely to take their views on board.

Another thing I can’t understand at all – why ban foreign-language magazines like Beijing Timeout? Do the authorities think that foreigners will find “propaganda dailys/weeklys” more interesting?

June 24, 2008 @ 3:00 pm | Comment

Sarcasm? Moi?!

June 24, 2008 @ 3:42 pm | Comment

what baffles me is how someone (like myself) who has traveled to China at least 30 times this year from Hong Kong can now only get at most a 2 entry visa, and then with a confirmed ticket/hotel/ etc, while people coming from the US can still get a multiple, one year visa, even if they only come to China once or twice a year.

If the intention is ‘security’, as they say, then makes no sense. Much more likely to have agitators coming directly from overseas than flying into Honkers and trying to sneak into China across the border.

Doesn’t make sense, but then again, not a lot that the Chinese authorities do does.

June 24, 2008 @ 3:51 pm | Comment

I see two problems:

1) The government has not been transparent regarding the new regulations. When the new regulations came into effect, different travel agencies were offering different stories because nobody could get a clear response from the Chinese authorities. I myself went to the CTS website to get more info as I was thinking of traveling in China. Zero. Zip. Nothing. Travel agencies in Hong Kong were clueless. CTS employees would tell you things in person, but that meant going to their office. The resulting confusion did indeed make China lose face among business travelers. It was a big story in Hong Kong involving all of the main chambers of commerce. A perception of an “unreasonable China” has continued somewhat to the present, even though the rules have been firmed up a bit.

2) China is a country that relies on foreigners coming in, doing business and leaving at a very high rate. An export manufacturer, especially one of China’s size, needs to have an environment where it is easy to enter the country and leave because buyers need to inspect products before they are shipped. It is still easier to get into China than it is to get into the US or Europe, but I think Chinese-government apologists do forget that the new requirements are still significantly more difficult to meet for many small and medium enterprises than the old ones. China’s rules are not yet as difficult as those of the US because everyone knows that if businesses had to jump over US-style hurdles before they entered China, China’s export economy would plummet.

The country’s economy totally relies on openness at the moment… the type that cannot be done by teleconferences and faxes (as would be possible in financial/service capitals such as London or New York). This is all the more true because there is more scrutiny of Chinese goods since the quality scares of last year. Large companies such as Wal-Mart already have employees on the ground in China. It is the small companies, that make up the majority, that really need to send someone to China (sometimes monthly) to check an order.

So you can’t dismiss this with a wave of the hand while sighing that it is more difficult to get into the US. China is where it is by offering an open export economy. Nobody is expecting the house of cards to collapse over this, but foreign businesses, who are still the motor of China’s economy, have reasons to scorn the new regulations. And they are not the only ones. Ask SMEs in China that export.

June 24, 2008 @ 4:13 pm | Comment

What you guys said. The problems: it’s arbitrary and not transparent. I can speak to the whole multi-visa entry part. I don’t have mine in hand, but supposedly I am getting a one year multi-entry visa. I had to supply a lot of stuff for the application, but of course, if/when I get the multi-entry visa, none of that will apply the next time I go. No proof of round trip plane tix, hotel reservations, honorable intentions, nothing.

I use a visa service and have for years so I am sure they have their connections; also I live in a city where the consulate is very accessible and has a good reputation. Good for me. But none of this stuff is written down anywhere; I’ve heard all kinds of stories about what I needed to bring; about half of it wasn’t necessary and I had to supply one more thing that no one had suggested.

I’ve traveled to China a bunch of times so I have a track record, but from what others are saying, including comments on this thread, the track record part isn’t necessarily helpful.

US visa regulations still suck, by the way.

June 24, 2008 @ 4:20 pm | Comment

Yep! We Americans are also mighty strict when it comes to granting visas. Even Boy George, that 80s pop music icon from the UK, was recently refused a visa to visit our friendly shores! China’s visa “policies” do seem to be very unpredictable though, more weird than ours, always changing, never stable. As you say, one sees “neither rhyme nor reason” in their ways.

June 24, 2008 @ 4:57 pm | Comment

I have big issues with America’s visa policies, too, but they definitely seem to be loosening up after 7 years of Bush insanity. Chinese friends tell me it is now much easier to get a visa to visit or study in the US than it was two or three years ago. Of course, there’s America, and then there’s America under Bush. Everything under Bush was an aberration, a grotesque contortion of what America (with all its myriad flaws and injustices) is supposed to stand for. At least Bush had an excuse (if not a very convincing one) for the visa insanity, i.e., fear of terrorism. In China, it seems random, arbitrary, etc.

June 24, 2008 @ 5:20 pm | Comment

Ma Bole, the “sacred flame” notion came mainly from Nazi Germany, the ones who cooked up the torch relay scheme in 1936. And everyone bows to it – since 1936, the “scared flame” during the relay is kept in its own 5-star hotel room at night.

June 24, 2008 @ 5:24 pm | Comment

Yeh, I agree. America under Bush was (or should we say is) an aberration.

Still, America and China are both truly great countries, and they both have their positive and negative points. One emphasizes individual rights, the other collective rights, and so both create different problems for themselves while solving others. Understanding and appreciating the other isn’t always easy, but when some lunatic like Bush seizes office, understanding the REAL America becomes even more difficult for most outsiders, like for the people of China. There’s far more to American diplomacy and international relations than its military, just as there is far more to American cuisine than McDonald’s and KFC. There is far more to China than the CCP and the Tiananmen violence of 1989. We all seem to view the Other through the prism of particular images, and this distorts our overall picture, and limits our abilities to see and appreicate all that is there. Just a few thoughts…

June 24, 2008 @ 5:33 pm | Comment

Finally got my visa handled. A relief after 5 months of worrying and not knowing what to do come expiration date. Sorry for all those that have to leave and those who can’t get in for whatever reason.

I have to admit that I do get a sick sense of satisfaction hearing that Beijing is looking like a ghost town so far this summer because of all the goofs by the CCP in the lead up to the big O. But according to some of the participants in this discussion they don’t need us anyway. Congratulations to China on ruining it for everyone! Have your fun time in Beijing with empty hotels and bars that close early. Sounds like it will be a real blast! At least after August 22nd, we’ll finally be free of this year’s misery. (Anybody here thinking of NOT watching the games? I have to watch the basketball, but other than that I’m thinking of tuning them out. I had enough of them a year ago!)

@Tang Buxi-Do you scour the internet for any post about this visa issue? You are always making the same “just like the States visa policy” argument whenever this issue comes up anywhere on the net. You are a representative of Blogging for China right? (Decent blog by the way) How are you guys funded? Just wondering if you are a part of the Chinese international PR machine or just a guy who likes to defend Chinese policies for no particular reason.

June 24, 2008 @ 10:17 pm | Comment

@Tang Buxi

I agree that there as sense in equity when China follows the US lead in tightening up its visa policies. But this is an “economy of hassles” and you need to look at the big picture. As difficult as it is to get a US visa to many people, that’s usually your biggest problem. Once your in the country, everything else is pretty smooth. Getting a drivers license, an apartment and credit card, nothing is a big deal as you as you have your papers. In China on the other hand, the visa used to be the smallest problem. The things you dread most are actually how to manage your life and make things work. Just getting an apartment is major operation and showing your foreign face to someone can lead to endless complications. Now, with all the new restrictions in place, I figure a lot of people will not consider it worth the hassle to go at all. Why bother?

June 24, 2008 @ 10:31 pm | Comment

In most cases it is wise to “follow the money”. Identify who gains financially from a certain activity or policy. However with the PRC it is often important to forget about who profits and look to see what the political benefit is. The CCP benefits politically in domestic perception. Reducing the number of uncontrollable foreigners during an important media event will ensure that the CCP can produce a historical media event that can be replayed and saturate domestic audiences with a glorious celebration of Han culture and CCP supremacy and leadership. The PRC recently made a tactical decision after the Tibetan Unrest to accept some international negative perception in exchange for total control over the internal Chinese domestic view of the “Sacred Games”. They have made the decision that a correct official view of the Sacred Games should be exhibited at all cost to reap the domestic political benefit and to cement among young malleable fenqing such as those involved in the blogosphere the idea that the CCP is and will always be totally in control of the PRC with a solid mandate from heaven. The PRC has no intention of allowing foreign reporting to result in an incorrect unofficial viewpoint of anything that has happened recently that is counter to the idea of total control of the CCP to gain any foothold amongst the citizenry.

Jia You Xiao Ben Dan!

June 24, 2008 @ 11:44 pm | Comment

About visas, many countries have special policies for US citizens. They either have to pay more money or can not get visas as easily as citizens of other nations.

Any comments from Peking Ducks on this phenomenon?

June 25, 2008 @ 12:21 am | Comment

I can neither confirm nor deny the existance of the alleged phenomenon. Sovereign nations can formulate Visa policy based on their own requirements. I am aware of certain countries where US citizens are allowed to travel to without requiring any Visa at all. I understand there are many countries where this is the case.

If you are not busy why don’t you make yourself useful and do a quick survey of the Visa policies of all the nations in the world with emphasis on comparison data between US and non-US Citizens and write a short summary of the analysis results.

I am aware of a phenomenon where certain embassies and consulates have abandoned or foregone maintenance on their properties within the DC city limits resulting in problems for their neighbors. Due to diplomatic immunity issues it is difficult for the city government to fine the owners or enforce compliance with local ordinances on maintenance of real estate. If you feel up to it please correlate the results of your Visa analysis with data on sanctions against poor property stewardship by foreign consular activities.

thanks

June 25, 2008 @ 12:43 am | Comment

I particularly appreciate the additional $100 charged to US citizens for visas. If you want to have an angry chip on your national shoulder, ok, that’s your choice, but don’t let it be manifested so blatantly in clearly unfair visa policies.

June 25, 2008 @ 12:53 am | Comment

[…] China’s Word/Phrase of the Year […]

June 25, 2008 @ 1:00 am | Pingback

@Amban,

饱汉不知饿汉饥，the phrase could never be more appropriate. I doubt that it’s really harder for you than it is for new Chinese arrivals in the United States. But, granted, I don’t really know what expats have to do, in China. Once you enter China on a visa, do you have to get a work permit? You can open a bank account with a foreign passport, correct?

How does someone recently arrived from China apply for a credit card, or even open a bank account? How do they rent a hotel room without an American credit card? How does this person even get from place to place?

@Richard,

Visa policies are certainly harsher under Bush (with more than 50% of Chinese students holding scholarships from American universities being denied visas)… but my god, it was anything but relaxed or welcoming before under any previous administration, and I’m sure it won’t be dramatically different under Obama either. Tourist visas never existed for Chinese until July of this year, and visas for work, visiting relatives, or study have *always* been denied at a very high rate. They all require a huge body of documentation, and a high-pressure face-to-face interview at an American embassy where nervous sweat or a facial tic could very well mean a visa denial.

So, yes, I still say you guys have it very lucky.

June 25, 2008 @ 1:27 am | Comment

As far as the risks of turning off international business from China… if we can eliminate the dual tax rate for international/domestic business without destroying our economy, I think we can take a chance with forcing international visitors into faxing a couple of receipts. It should be the basic foundation of a reasonable border control policy.

Again, I’ll be disappointed if this policy was ONLY for the Olympics, but if it stays around, then the Chinese government did the right thing.

@Andy Raynor,

I’ve been posting on Peking Duck for months. The only other board I remember talking about the visa policy on is Shanghaiist, which has been kind enough to link to our blog numerous times, and I wanted to return the favor. As long as “you guys” keep talking about it, I’ll keep writing back about it.

As far as financial support for our blog, we’re supported exactly the same way Peking Duck is. We also receive our political orders from a government institution similar to the one that Richard turns to for instructions.

June 25, 2008 @ 1:32 am | Comment

While Tang Buxi of course sees nothing wrong with the visa policies and would instead prefer to tell us what a “hard time” Chinese people such as himself have when they are away from the glorious embrace of the motherland, I must say as a frequent China traveler who knows other frequent visitors, many of the people that I know are uninterested in going to China this summer due to the visa policy and the expected paranoia of the authorities. If “seasoned” China visitors find it a hassle, what is the average tourist or businessman on his first trip going to think? Remember, most of us don’t have to get a visa to travel anywhere besides such glorious spots as China and Burma.
Also, what’s up with warning that people’s computers can be searched for “anti-China” content? Was Tang’s laptop searched at US Customs?
It’s clearly in violation of the promises that free speech would be protected, not only made to the Olympic Committee but also in the largely imaginary PRC Constitution.

June 25, 2008 @ 2:18 am | Comment

@Tang Buxi

Well, that depends on what entry visa you had in the first place, I’m not talking about tourists here. And starving Chinese don’t go abroad; they go to Shenzhen to work for a pittance in a local sweatshop. And not all foreigners are rich “expats” or live luxury lives.

Let’s talk about the situation I’m most familiar with. You enter the US on a student visa, you get a SSC# and you’re pretty much set to get a bank account, apply for a driver’s license or get a credit card. You can sign a lease for an apartment. Try any of these, except perhaps the bank account in China, and you know what I’m talking about. Given the increasing cost and hassles of going to mainland China, where you can expect policy reversal at the snap of a finger by a bureaucrat, why bother? You can go to Taiwan and learn Chinese instead.

Furthermore, unlike Chinese in the West, who have CSSA that assist them with all kinds of services, foreign students in China are not allowed to organize. As a matter of fact, you have to sign an agreement to that effect. Try to start a magazine for foreign students in China, and let’s see what happens. Remember what has happened to every single foreign run publication in China?

June 25, 2008 @ 2:59 am | Comment

If the US Visa process is too much of a hassle for you then you can consider taking advantage of the new freedom to visit Taibei and tour the National Palace Museum instead.

June 25, 2008 @ 3:02 am | Comment

Let’s talk about the situation I’m most familiar with. You enter the US on a student visa, you get a SSC# and you’re pretty much set to get a bank account, apply for a driver’s license or get a credit card.

Stop right there. You can’t get a SSC# on a F-1 student visa.

kevin,

I’m about as concerned about foreign visitors being turned off this summer as you have been about Chinese visitors being turned off by restrictive American visa policies.

I’m not sure why you guys are wringing your hands about 5-star hotels, a lot of love in your hearts presumably. I personally don’t sympathize with them, nor do I sympathize with the Chinese landlords (didn’t someone on this blog get evicted for higher rent?) that might be losing money. That’s way the market economy works, they’ll get over it. The Beijing Olympics will do fine, China will do fine.

June 25, 2008 @ 3:54 am | Comment

To offer an argument in defense of the hassling chinese trying to get US Visas. The US does have an illegal immigrant problem. Prior to 911 the student visa process was a joke. Foreign students would register for the minimum number of courses required to maintain status and then show up only long enough to not be dropped, or would just disappear and not bother to register at all.

Once they get here and get a taste of skateboarding and reading the journal they don’t seem to want to leave and then fail to become patriotic citizens in their adopted country. Then they bring their whole family.

Imagine what would happen if INS asked an asian person for their green card or passport and they turned out to be the child of extremely weathly naturalized citizens who dislike the writings of Thomas L. Friedman.

It’s pretty nice of us to let foreigners come here and become citizens and eventually have a child who grows up to be president.

How many foreigners have willingly become citizens of the PRC?

June 25, 2008 @ 4:19 am | Comment

Tang, sorry, you’re wrong.
All graduate students that I work with from China have SSC’s and bank accounts. I am not clear about undergraduates, however.
Also, quite funny: you’re not worried about visitors being turned off this summer? Wasn’t this supposed to be a big gala where the people of the world were welcomed to Beijing? It kind of shows how empty the rhetoric can be from your like. Much like the issues of freedom of speech and media that I mentioned above.

I once read an essay in Chinese on the Internet whose author said “don’t let them boycott the Olympics. Let’s boycott them! Don’t issue any visas, and have our Games anyway for our Chinese people. We don’t need those foreigners.” I thought it was a joke at first. Unfortunately it wasn’t.

June 25, 2008 @ 4:28 am | Comment

Graduate students can get a visa that allows them to work as Research Assistants or Teaching Assistants and requiring a SSC#.

There are a lot of graduate students being used as cheap labor, trapped with a limited visa, not able to get a regular work visa and not wanting to go home. Recall Bill Gates testifying to congress that we need more, which is not a bad idea, if they are willing to love their new homeland above their mother country once they become citizen’s.

Failing to do so means it is perfectly acceptable for us natives to ask them “Why are you here?”

You can always pack up the surf board and go home. After all no one invited you.

June 25, 2008 @ 4:48 am | Comment

All graduate students that I work with from China have SSC’s and bank accounts. I am not clear about undergraduates, however.

Practically the first thing that all foreign undergraduates did when they arrived on campus at an American university in my days as a foreign student in the States (early 90s) was to get a Social Security Card. By that time they had already been solicited for credit cards at the booths that are set up all over campus by businesses that want to make a buck off the returning student body.

I don’t understand the direction this discussion is going. All visa policies are supposed to be maintained in the interest of the issuing country. The point of the discussion was whether current China visa policy serves China’s interests, with the implication that it doesn’t. Tang and others seem to think that if they prove Chinese visa policy is less nasty than American visa policy, that automatically proves that it is a policy which serves China’s interests. This seems to be logically doubtful. There are obviously two competing interests at work here for China: a desire to get foreign business, versus a desire to keep out foreign troublemakers. Lesson: if you are a fascist dictatorship, don’t bid for the Olympics, since it’ll just land you in dilemmas like this one.

I have to disagree with people who think US visa policy is unfriendly. I’ve been there several times since 2001 and haven’t noticed anything different from before, apart from having to put my finger on a reader. Europe’s Schengen visa system is far more daunting to foreign travellers. For example, the US issues ten year visas to frequent travellers, while Schengen rarely issues more than six months at a time, which means more waiting around in consulates and paying visa fees.

June 25, 2008 @ 5:01 am | Comment

Don’t worry about Ole Tang, Rohan. For all of his more sophisticated than average attempts at rationalizing anything the Chinese government does, his basic line of argument is “China good. No foreigners can dispute that. If so, they are anti-China. China good. No Chinese can disagree. If so, they are traitors.”
His open-closed flip flop on the visa question reminds me of an exchange that I had with him a few months ago, when he was CCT(V). In one thread, he explained away/excused an arbitrary detention or something along the lines that it was the result of China’s “underdeveloped legal system.” In another thread, he called for the “full punishment” of the “Tibetan rioters” in accordance with Chinese law, in an “open” (read: show) trial.
Isn’t it funny that the problem (China’s legal system) in one thread becomes the ultimate sanctified solution in another? However, it in fact makes perfect sense as Tang is not attempting to follow logic wherever it takes him to reach conclusions (seeking truth from facts, one might say), but rather attempting to use an illusion of logic to back up his essentially religious belief that whatever the government happens to be doing at the moment is right for a “strong China.”

June 25, 2008 @ 6:03 am | Comment

About two months ago, I had an interesting conversation with a middle aged, middle class American in the local mall. She was apparently had the money to travel to China, and she wanted to see the Olympics, but she confessed to me that she was afraid to do so because of the potential for bombs and large scale violent disturbances by “the Tibetans”. Apparently, what she had seen on the news had been indigested to give her the impression that such was possible during the Beijing Olympics. I think most of us here will agree, whether pro or con on the Tibet issue, that bombs and large scale violent disturbances in Beijing during the Olympics, while possible, are highly unlikely. My belabored point is: In addition to visa restrictions, how many are staying away from the games because of a concern about security?

ps Richard. Picked up a copy of Macabe Keliher’s “Out of China”, his translation of Yu Yonghe’s account of a trip to Taiwan in the late 1600s. Great book. Hope you’re read it.Published by SMC publishing, Taipei.

June 25, 2008 @ 7:37 am | Comment

So what happened to our friend Tang Buxi? Perhaps he disappeared, as he is wont to do when he confronted with facts that make him uncomfortable and that are not easily fit into the “East (CHINA!!!) vs. West (usa…)” story he trying to sell.

June 25, 2008 @ 9:00 am | Comment

Talking about visas, this is an article on what can happen to scholars who say things that may be interpreted as being against the one-China policy, scholars who do not think of themselves as being “anti-Chinese.”

To echo what has been said before, I do not think it is in the best interests of China to silence voices like this. But it is happening and we all need to pay attention.

Want access? Go easy on China

BEIJING // In 2004, a manuscript on China’s Xinjiang region somehow fell into the hands of unknown Chinese. The book was quickly translated into Chinese – complete with the editor’s marginalia – and copies were soon making the rounds of government offices in Beijing.

Chinese officials apparently mistakenly saw the book as a US government-funded effort to undermine its rule of the troubled Muslim area in China’s far northwest. Most of the 14 contributors, all but one of whom were from the West, soon found themselves on China’s docket of blacklisted scholars.

http://www.thenational.ae/article/20080621/FOREIGN/425026836/1002/NEWS

June 25, 2008 @ 9:56 am | Comment

Tang Buxi’s lack of analytical skills and his inability to assess China critically, reminds me very much of a book I just reviewed for my blog written by a Canadian journalist now working for the Beijing Review: everything about America is bad, she says, and everything about China is utopian. This kind of crudeness hardly helps anybody when it comes to trying to understand China, which is a very complex country, full of contradictions and subtle nuanaces.

June 25, 2008 @ 10:01 am | Comment

I don’t think Tang Buxi even read the article. It’s not the expats who are so upset with this issue (that’s a separate story), but the Chinese themselves. They are the ones who are losing jobs and money. But it’s all fine with Tang. Do you think he hates China?

Kevin, great work spotting the contradictions in our friend’s arguments. Now that he’s established himself as a guru on US Social Security policy, how can we ever doubt his word again on anything?

Hongxin, your comment above is one of the most detestable yet. I leave it there so everyone knows the real Red Star. Some newbies think you are an actual human being. They’ll learn soon enough.

June 25, 2008 @ 10:01 am | Comment

The government may also be limiting visas from a concern for violence by chinese people being directed against the foreign visitors. The more foreigners loose in the city, especially first time visitors with a slightly different take on history or recent events. After being pumped over Lhasa, the earthquake and the western media, and the stress of preparing for the games, adrenaline can be high. Any minor incident could be reported and naturally the rest of the world will have heightened attention for Beijing during the games, so it would be hard to prevent incidents being reported.

Even considering that factor I believe that the primary goal is to have an event tailored for domestic consumption and foreigners add too much of a random uncontrollable element that is contrary to the official plan.

How plausible is a foreign terrorist attack in China. The worst I could see happening is fist fights in a bar or arguments with a cabby over Tibet, Burma or maybe Taiwan. I don’t believe any Tibet group is determined to or sophisticated enough to carryout an act of terrorism within Beijing or a major coastal city in China.

The most likely terrorist acts would be domestic in nature and origin and it just seems out of character for anything like a 911 to occur in China itself.

The real danger is foreigners expressing opinions contrary to official versions and wound up angry youths pissed of at Richard Gere going after the first foreigner they see wearing a kung fu panda T-shirt.

Have to confess I would love to paste a giant photo of the dalai lama or the kung fu panda over the ubiquitious Chair Mao portrait.

June 25, 2008 @ 10:32 am | Comment

Visa policies always bring the snob out of you. Rich countries waive visa requirements between themselves. Poor countries often do the same to each others. Things become complicated between a rich country and a poor country. For instance the US charges a high visa application fee. Some countries, like Mexico, put up with this. and let Americans visit their own countries without a visa, even though their own citizens need an American visa to visit US. Other countries, like Chile, Brazil, and China, have more pride and they reciprocate with a high visa fee from Americans.

In the end ordinary people pay the price.

June 25, 2008 @ 10:55 am | Comment

The astuteness of your missive is undeniable.

Bravo!

I think a famous imaginary immigrant to the Homeland a colorful figment of the imagination of tinseltown, known as Scarface said it best, “First you get the money, then you get the power, then you get the women!” I don’t think he had a visa, but then he was from Cuba.

However I would suggest that higher visa fees can also be a case of the natives in the democracy voicing an opinion to their elected officials that they really are not interested in paying more taxes to cover the expenses of processing visa applications for foreigners. Which seems rather logical. But you are right that relative economic status is a factor.

After 911 the US should have taken the lead to raise visa processes and passport processes as a common international concern. At that time there seem to be a general concern for security among most nations over international travel and commerce. At the very least the US should have made putting our own house in order a priority, but alas the adminstration in power had other priorities the seem less urgent today in comparison.

June 25, 2008 @ 11:25 am | Comment

Thanks, Richard. I wouldn’t hold it against Tang (as I’m sure no one would- after all, who amongst us born with SSN’s really know the details of how to get one?)… if he didn’t act so damn certain and jump on any inconsistency in other’s arguments so as to distract from the broader picture of Chinese government mishandlings.
But, quite obviously it’s just another ideological dropping in his massive sexually-frustrated “love China” campaign, which contrasts so starkly with his dystopian portrayal of the US (where he of course resides).
In response to Tang’s clear mistakes and nationalist numbheadedness, I have to say that if I didn’t have experience with Chinese visas, I really would not make stuff up. I know when you get your “foreigner residence permit.” I know what documents you have to deliver to the glorious “embassy” nowadays. And, I know what they’re looking for. Also, if I didn’t have experience with students’ and immigrants’ visa processes in the US, I also would not make things up, as other commenters have affirmed. In discussing visa policy, I attempt to abide by the words of the trashy old oligarchs Mao Zedong and Deng Xiaoping in “seeking truth from facts.” Tang Buxi seems to have a somewhat more lively imagination, despite his loyalty to these old whorish farty-pants.
Tang is kind of like China’s George W. Bush, providing us with tantalizing/terrorizing little bits of info to convince us of his nationalist/narrowminded viewpoint which he oh so arrogantly claims to represent the “chinese viewpoint.” Thankfully, he does not have as much power. Unfortunately, the People’s Daily is sadly similar.

June 25, 2008 @ 12:25 pm | Comment

Thanks for making me laugh out loud during an otherwise thoroughly unfunny day, Kevin.

I have to say, I’ve enjoyed some of CCTV’s (Tang’s) comments in the past, and I don’t see him as a troll or troublemaker. But his willingness to state unsupportable assertions as unassailable facts does nothing for his credibility. Small wonder he’s vanished. (And you’re welcome back, Tang. We all make dumb mistakes sometimes.)

June 25, 2008 @ 12:59 pm | Comment

actually, Richard, going back to your original comment the reason security confiscate toothpaste is because there was a plot to blow up planes with liquid explosives. A bit heavy handed perhaps, but it makes sense nonetheless.

June 25, 2008 @ 2:54 pm | Comment

Neil, I do disagree. There was a bullshit rumor of such a plot, but it was just that – bullshit. There is something so idiotic about them confiscating toothpaste on the grounds that it might be used to blow up a plane. If they really believed that, why do they throw the tube into a big plastic bin for everyone to see? Why don’t they rush it to the FBI for tests if they think there’s a chance it’s dangerous? Anyway, for the most brilliant exposure of the folly, idiocy and hypocrisy of our inane airport security practices, go read this piece right now. Then tell me there’s even the tiniest iota of sense behind the regulations. It made no sense at all. (Sorry for being so outspoken, but I have big issues with the insanities brought on by our post-911 mentality.)

June 25, 2008 @ 3:23 pm | Comment

@Richard

I always thought of Tang as a Chinese version of Stephen Colbert, who is always ready to defend his country, no matter what: “I am China and so can you!” He’s fun to argue with though…

June 25, 2008 @ 7:43 pm | Comment

He is fun to argue with and he’s smart, except when he isn’t.

June 25, 2008 @ 8:05 pm | Comment

All graduate students that I work with from China have SSC’s and bank accounts.
That’s because they work. F-1 visa alone will not land you a SSC. Any university’s international program can confirm this.

Small wonder he’s vanished.
Actually he started blogging himself.

June 25, 2008 @ 9:24 pm | Comment

@CLC

Well, Social Security administration has tightened up somewhat after 9/11, but the fact remains that it is possible for international students – who are eligible for on-campus employment – to get a SSC#. And with a proper ID, it is possible to do a lot of things even without a SSC#. For all the blemishes of the US system, once you are in the US, it is infinitely more open to foreigners than China is. Which is why people keep coming.

Most of us are willing to accept the hassles of living in China as long as it is relatively easy to go there and reasonably priced. If China continues its current policies, people will go elsewhere and the Chinese economy will suffer.

June 25, 2008 @ 9:37 pm | Comment

@Amban,

I don’t think we disagree here. Yes, F-1 student are eligible for on-campus employment. They can also apply for OPT after they graduate while still on F-1 visa. However, it’s not always easy or pragmatic for them to find a job (eg. ESL students).

once you are in the US, it is infinitely more open to foreigners than China is.
That’s the key. You have to be in first. I have heard of plenty of US visa horror stories. One case I witnessed happened right after the X-mas in 2002. A Chinese graduate student came back from the US to accompany his wife to apply visas together. His visa application was granted but his wife’s was not. He got upset and said he did not want the visa if his wife could not get one. The visa official just took his passport and stamped it, saying something like “you’ll never get to enter the US.”

Finally, I have to say the current Chinese visa restriction is counter productive and I hope it will only be temporary.

June 25, 2008 @ 10:55 pm | Comment

That’s because graduate student + wife = two new immigrants who do not leave and then they bring parents and grandparents, siblings and cousins.

Not that there is anything wrong with that per se.

If they said upfront we want to immigrate to America that’s a different story. More direct and honest.

Americans have mixed feelings about how many they want coming here to the land of opportunity.

Past experience tells us that the graduate student visa route is often a backdoor closet immigrant in waiting. The wife only re-enforces that probabilty.

June 25, 2008 @ 11:57 pm | Comment

they bring parents and grandparents, siblings and cousins.

Really? via what kind of visa program?

If they said upfront we want to immigrate to America that’s a different story. More direct and honest.

If you are familiar with US visa policy, you know that statment will lead to an automatic denial.

June 26, 2008 @ 12:33 am | Comment

My first chinese teacher is an example. She came to attend graduate school. Then obtained work visa, applied for citizenship, obtained green card, brought husband over, then middle sister and her husband, then younger sister, then parents.

Once one stays and gets naturalized then it is possible to start sponsoring relatives.

People apply for and are granted asylum or request to immigrate here and become naturalize citizens to the US all the time. The first question they ask you is “Why do you want to immigrate to the united states?” You fenqing will have difficulty getting past that question.

Marry a citizen then request immigration status is another methodology.

Contact the INS and ask about immigration if you want to learn more or you can rent the amusing movie entitled “Green Card” staring Gérard Depardieu and Andie MacDowell

One of my chinese teachers became a citizen after he came here as a student. He requested citizenship after June 4th 1989 to escape the repressive government and to have the right to be a christian. He told us how the FBI contacted him after 6-4 to offer protection in case he was being targeted for harassment by agents of the chinese government, he is now a citizen and worked for the state department.

June 26, 2008 @ 5:10 am | Comment

Did you miss me already, Amban? I think I was only gone for what… 24 hrs? If that?

Part of the reason we started blogging is so that our words can be collected, and people can evaluate what I say themselves, rather than relying on the impressions of our friend kevinwhereeverheis. So, for those who want to see what I (and other say), refer to:
http://blog.foolsmountain.com

I think Rohan makes a good point above:

There are obviously two competing interests at work here for China: a desire to get foreign business, versus a desire to keep out foreign troublemakers.

And yes, I certainly agree with that. When I compare Chinese visa policies to American policies, it’s only to suggest isn’t particularly malicious. In fact, it’s perfectly benign in comparison. Foreigners that want to stay for an extended amount of time in China, foreigners that want to work in China should be properly accredited and regulate.. just like every other developed country.

I also said above that if the goal was to “keep out foreign trouble-makers” from the Olympics, I think the policy is ridiculous. It simply won’t work, for one thing. Tibetan activists can get a hotel room reservation as easily as anyone else. But if the policy stays, then I approve.

If I believed this policy would have a significant effect on “getting foreign business”, I would be concerned. China’s priority should still be economic growth. But frankly, I don’t believe that, and I’m not concerned. China’s attractiveness and economic competitiveness is due to many reasons, and a good visa policy is very low on the list. Like I mentioned earlier, I was more concerned about changing the tax codes… but hell, if GM and everyone else will continue to do business in China despite paying tens of millions more in taxes every year, I think they’ll put up with the work of faxing in a few receipts.

As far as whether this means foreigners are welcome in Beijing for the Olympics, I think the answer is clear: yes, but on our terms.

PS. Is there a way to turn off that constantly updating preview window below this? On Firefox, it makes typing painfully slow.

June 26, 2008 @ 7:07 am | Comment

Oh, and back to the topic of F-1 students getting by in the US, obviously, there *is* a path to staying and thriving. But to put it mildly, it remains 100x more difficult for Chinese students in the US than vice versa.

And yes, Lindel is absolutely right on this point. If we didn’t like it, if the rewards didn’t out-weigh the costs, we would leave. And all those in China should follow the same advice.

June 26, 2008 @ 7:11 am | Comment

@Buxi

As far as whether this means foreigners are welcome in Beijing for the Olympics, I think the answer is clear: yes, but on our terms.

In general, I would agree with you, but this is a special case. China is arranging the Olympics, but China does not own the Olympics. And so far, it seems that the Chinese government has failed to deliver on many of the promises that were given when China was awarded the games.

But to put it mildly, it remains 100x more difficult for Chinese students in the US than vice versa.

…and what do you base that on? Did you even read what I wrote?

June 26, 2008 @ 7:45 am | Comment

China is arranging the Olympics, but China does not own the Olympics. And so far, it seems that the Chinese government has failed to deliver on many of the promises that were given when China was awarded the games.

Was a visa policy not requiring proof of hotel accommodations on that list of Olympic promises? When I visited Europe 2 years ago, I had to provide all of that and more. I didn’t try Athens 2004, but I suspect they would’ve demanded the same.

As far as the student visa thing… I already said you *can not* get a SSN on a F-1 student visa, not unless you have some sort of on-campus employment. Did you respond to this? I didn’t see a response.

Even aggressively speaking, that’s typically at least a 3 month process. Not many Chinese land and find even RA/TA positions waiting for them. And without a SSN, you can’t do much else, including applying for a credit card, and I assume opening up a bank account.

And god forbid trying to make money on the side, by teaching Chinese (or even washing dishes) for example. No working permit (and you won’t get one without a H1 and/or employer willing to sponsor a green card), means no legal employment outside of the pittance you get as a RA and TA. (I was paid $1500/mo stipend as a graduate student.)

June 26, 2008 @ 9:01 am | Comment

Tang Buxi: I totally agree with your first post. The only difference I can see in the tourist visa policy is the required documentation of airline tickets and hotel reservations and the fee has risen from $50.00 to $130.00. I’ve always made all my reservations 5 to 7 months before my trip (ok, a little anal) and I usually apply for my visa about 2 months before. No one seemed to be able or interested in answering your question about if there were any arbitrary denials for tourist visas. Anyone? The New York Times didn’t seem to know either. Don’t most tour groups schedule all the plane and hotel reservations? Is that so impossible to document? Don’t Chinese need the same information to get a U.S. visa? And an invitation?

For the last 3 years a Chinese friend has been my guide and companion on all my trips to China. He has applied for a U.S. tourist visa 4 times and been rejected.

From the U.S. Embassy in Beijing page: http://tiny.cc/x7eHu

“Section 214(b) of the U.S. Immigration and Naturalization Act states:

Every alien shall presumed to be an immigrant until he establishes to the satisfaction of the consular officer, at the time of application for admission, that he is entitled to a nonimmigrant status… ”

This is sad. Every Aussie, Brit or Frenchie who wants to see the Grand Canyon or Empire State Building is presumed to be planning to immigrate?

“Strong ties differ from country to country, city to city, individual to individual. “Ties” are the various aspects of a person’s life that bind them to their country or residence: possessions, employment, social and family relationships. Some examples of ties can be a persons job and income, a house or apartment, a car, close family relationships, bank accounts, etc.”

The last time my friend was rejected he had a good job with a media company, owned a car, a 3 bedroom, 2 bath apartment in Beijing that I couldn’t afford, and had two elderly parents living in Beijing. He was still turned down. About a month later his business decided to send a group to the U.S. for a conference. His 8 or 9 coworkers were interviewed on the same day, but because he had applied within the month for a tourist visa, he had to come on a special day. Needless to say, his coworkers, even a very young guy with no car or major posessions, were all granted their visas and he was denied his for a 5th time. He was getting discouraged but his boss insisted he apply again under some kind of emergency scheduling as he was the only one in his group who spoke English. Finally, he was granted a visa. He came to the U.S. on a business visa but he’s still unable to visit me because he can’t get a tourist visa. It’s all a little embarrassing. He’s not interested in the immigrating to the U.S. and since someday I’d love to move to China, I want him THERE! On a side note, I have described this state of affairs to my own coworkers many many times and they still seem to think my friend can’t get into this country because China won’t let him leave! Haaaaaaaaaaaa! JFC! Americans!

June 26, 2008 @ 10:07 am | Comment

Richard. Neil is right. It was not a bullshit plot. I lost my toothpaste, shamnpoo, and some very expensive cologne, after-shave because, while I’d seen the threat on the message traffic, I failed to pay attention to the counter-measures being instituted before my trip to Taiwan. More annoyingly, after Incheon airport security personnel gleefully dispossessed me of these items, I climbed on the plane to discover that the airlines was quite willing to sell me their replacements duty free.

Maybe there is poetic justice, after all.

June 26, 2008 @ 10:21 am | Comment

My first chinese teacher is an example. She came to attend graduate school. Then obtained work visa, applied for citizenship, obtained green card, brought husband over, then middle sister and her husband, then younger sister, then parents.

OK, one can not apply for citizenship directly while on a work visa. First, she/he has to apply for a green card, which may take several years. After 5 years of holding a green card, she/he may apply for citizenship. Once she/he becomes a citizen, she may sponsor her siblings, but as 4th family-sponsored preference the wait time is over 10 years. So in your example, it will take at least 15-20 years before she can bring her first sister over. When did you begin to learn Chinese?

June 26, 2008 @ 10:27 am | Comment

“This is sad. Every Aussie, Brit or Frenchie who wants to see the Grand Canyon or Empire State Building is presumed to be planning to immigrate?”
How about an automatic 90-day tourist visa for aussies, brits, and frenchies… as well as japanese, etc. through the mutual visa waiver program?
Any other ridiculous assertions?

June 26, 2008 @ 10:33 am | Comment

Kevin

So we only worry about yellow and brown people? Surprise! Surprise! Home of the free. Land of the brave.

June 26, 2008 @ 10:37 am | Comment

yes, shockeye, no yellow people in Japan, and no brown people in the USA, of course.

June 26, 2008 @ 10:44 am | Comment

“So in your example, it will take at least 15-20 years before she can bring her first sister over.”
Just to kind of level the playing field here, how long does it take for me to get a Chinese green card? I lived in China for over 5 years and I did not see any path to citizenship, nor even a f-ing green card. I am married to a Chinese citizen, spent the majority of my adult life in China, but can i expect permanent resident status (not that I would ever want it, to say the least)? Do you know how many so-called “laowai” have Chinese green cards? Last I checked, we are talking about roughly 100 people, and some who had lived in the country for decades were ineligible.
If you want to turn this into a national pissing contest, those claiming “Chinese openness” have no chance of even coming close to the US, an immigrant nation. How about you return to the issue at hand, which you are of course in a hurry to dodge and distract others from, namely the inept government response to hosting an international event?

June 26, 2008 @ 10:51 am | Comment

PS- shockeye, i believe it is “land of the free, and the home of the brave,” not the other way around. Nevertheless, unlike certain sinocentric bloggers, i will not cast doubt on your “american-ness.”

June 26, 2008 @ 10:52 am | Comment

Kevie:

So the law is only against Chinese?

June 26, 2008 @ 11:05 am | Comment

No, actually, it isn’t, my uninformed friend. Rather than spouting off “it’s against the yellow and brown people” or “it’s only against the Chinese,” you might want to do a little “research” on the mutual visa waiver exchange program, and then attempt to have an intelligent discussion on visas rather than a collection of wild, unsubstantiated guesses all aimed at proclaiming “america so bad!”

June 26, 2008 @ 11:25 am | Comment

Kevin, one guess which country shockeye is posting from?

June 26, 2008 @ 11:36 am | Comment

Kevie and Richard:

You guys are so cute. You should get a room. Really! You two are pathetic. I love China and have Chinese friends so I can’t be American? I was born in Arkansas, grew up in Illinois, and live in Arkansas again. My family has been here for over 200 years. I don’t see any problem with the new visa policy. Documenting your reservations is no big deal. If there are arbitrary refusals that’s a different thing but so far I haven’t seen any proof of that and I hope it’s not the case. Also, the rules for a business visa (Forbes article) seem to be a bit more complicated. That’s a shame but it doesn’t concern me. When I can’t repay the hospitality of my Chinese friends it leaves me a little sad and embarrassed.

June 26, 2008 @ 11:49 am | Comment

After we get a room, I will be sure to notify the nearest PSB.

June 26, 2008 @ 12:17 pm | Comment

I do agree that the US visa policies suck …. trying to get my g/f to the US and meet the folks has been impossible. However, the discussion should not be about comparing China’s visa policy with another country’s. It’s about how the new policy is hurting China …. not who is better / worse.

China’s recent rise is due to foreign investment. Driven by people traveling and moving to China and setting up systems. Foreigners were invited to help build the country. It was great to watch and participate in. Going back to closed borders is not a good way to continue the trend. And I’m not talking tourist visas. My company is having problems with work visas also. We buy from China factories. No visas means no business trips which means ….. no Purchase Orders …..

June 26, 2008 @ 2:52 pm | Comment

I think Chinese goverment truely had foreigners personal safety in mind when they made this decision, you know, when the west media talked all these chinese hypernationlists, these mobsters, fei-qings, they are brain-washed crazies you know, they attack McDonalds, beat up American teachers, gather in number of thousands shouting communists slogans, it’s down right scary! From the American media you would Iraq is safer than China for them, so Chinese goverment did the only thing they could, even it means to sacrifice China’s own economic interests, what a noble move! and you guys are complaining about it?!

June 26, 2008 @ 10:47 pm | Comment

“Do you know how many so-called “laowai” have Chinese green cards? Last I checked, we are talking about roughly 100 people, and some who had lived in the country for decades were ineligible.”

One of those 100 people is Canadian writer Lisa Carducci. She wrote a book about China: “As Great as the World”. Jason Lee wrote about it on his site “China Book Reviews”. So, one way to get a Chinese green card is to write a book the essence of which is: China good, USA bad. Maybe the American government could do that as well. Let’s say I write a book titled “As Big as the Universe (and my Ego)” in which I describe what a paradise the USA are and that no other country is even half as great – especially that evil empire on the other side of the ocean – and then I get my green card and the official title “Friend of the American People”. Sounds like a rather exaggerated satire? It’s reality in the People’s Republic of China.

June 26, 2008 @ 11:59 pm | Comment

I just got an idea. Maybe that’s what is driving people like shockeye? I was always wondering why all these commenters from the USA seem to feel this strong desire to justify and gloss over just about every action and policy of the CCP. Now I know: they are just trying to become “Friends of the Chinese People” like Lisa Carducci and in this way get their Chinese green cards so they can be with their friends who are not allowed to visit them because of the evil US visa regulations. So, Red Star, Ferin and all the others, apologies to you for misinterpreting your intentions! Now I understand that you are twisting facts, slandering innocent people and cursing their families for a good cause.

June 27, 2008 @ 12:14 am | Comment

I lived in China for over 5 years and I did not see any path to citizenship, nor even a f-ing green card.

And do you know why you don’t want a f-ing green card? Because you can work, because you have an income, because you can purchase property, despite all of your protestations, you’re not really concerned about arbitrarily being deported from China tomorrow or refused re-entry into the country, and losing everything.

If the Chinese had all those rights in the US, vast majority wouldn’t give a fuck about a green card and path to citizenship, either.

June 27, 2008 @ 2:12 am | Comment

Buxi, now you’re talkin’

June 27, 2008 @ 4:14 am | Comment

richard – I’m not convinced at all by the article you linked to. Of course i agree about the post 911 paranoia and so on, but as far as airport security goes im quite happy to go through all the security checks that are considered necessary by the authorities for our personal safety. They are the ‘experts’ after all. Even if i had to go naked into an xray machine i wouldn’t care. What i do hate is the random screening, snooping of passenger lists, fingerprinting etc etc in the name of the fight against ‘terror’. This is just an excuse to erode civil liberties and increase the power of the government over our everyday lives, all in the name of a war against ‘terror’. What a joke.

June 27, 2008 @ 4:29 am | Comment

Yokie,

“The discussion should not be about comparing China’s visa policy with another country’s. It’s about how the new policy is hurting China …. not who is better / worse.”

It’s the only argument they know.

June 27, 2008 @ 5:51 am | Comment

“And do you know why you don’t want a f-ing green card?”
There are a number of reasons. Pollution, rising crime in urban areas, media and Internet restrictions, blatant xenophobic nationalism, market bubbles, etc. I particularly enjoy the ability to surf the Internet freely now: it wasn’t until I went to China that I realized just how great the rights that I enjoy in the US truly are.
About the ability to open an account, I really wouldn’t exactly consider the ability to open a Chinese bank account a privilege/ right. Considering the quality of service, it is probably easier and faster to become a US citizen than to handle a single task at a Chinese bank. Of course, you know nothing about this, and I’ve probably spent significantly more time in China in recent years than you, China-lover! Distance does indeed build affection!
Also Tang, I would recommend that you drop the whole “can’t open a bank account” thing, as explained above. Even if you don’t have an SSN (which everyone I know does), you can still get a Taxpayer Identification Number, even if you are illegal! Sorry to have blown another hole in your mistaken ASS-umptions.

June 27, 2008 @ 7:24 am | Comment

Tang, should you like to learn more about how to open a bank account with an F1 visa, you can read this http://tinyurl.com/5mbrrw before making any more mistaken statements.
Can we please talk about the effects of China’s visa closure now?

June 27, 2008 @ 7:30 am | Comment

Do we have any more to say about this topic? I think it’s pretty much exhausted. Tang will never agree that he’s wrong, so I don’t see much sense in arguing any more.

Neil, we can agree to disagree about airport security. I think the whole liquids and shoe hysteria at US airports are symptomatic of our paranoia and accomplish less than nothing. The US seems to be the only place where they’re worried bout people’s shoes. All in reaction to one idiot who tried to use his shoe as a bomb. The liquids hysteria similarly was later exposed as preposterous. We need to be rigorous, but also realistic. The TSA has been a great improvement over pr-911 airport non-security. But some of the regulations protect no one and cause needless waiting and anxiety. Taking away people’s toothpaste….

June 27, 2008 @ 8:22 am | Comment

Before this thread ends, I would like to ask if there is any other country in history that has actually tightened visa requirements before their Olympics? I think that it is sad, counterintuitive (particularly in terms of economics, which are the sacred obsession in contermporary China), and runs counter to the supposed reasons that the Olympics are being held in Beijing (for a “new” new China’s coming-out party).

June 27, 2008 @ 9:11 am | Comment

[…] travel agencies, and foreign businessmen say new Chinese visa restrictions are proving bad fhttp://www.pekingduck.org/2008/06/chinas-wordphrase-of-the-year/ATA Inc. to Participate in the Fourth Annual Collins Stewart Growth Conference PR Newswire via […]

June 27, 2008 @ 10:16 am | Pingback

After living in the USA and EU for over 8 years, I finally returned to China.

I can say from my experience- lots of things in China are not perfect or ill-managed, but it is constantly improving.

Tang and Shockeye have made it very clear- the intention is to filter trouble makers/ visa abusers both in and outside of China- it is sure can be done more effectively. If you want to come here, deal with it. The rather relaxed enforcement in the past had made many people taking it for granted, so another surprise when law means law now.

China owes its economic growth to some degree to foreign investment and communications, but the ‘anything goes’ days are over. Don’t forget, those came to China made huge payback, many times more than hard-working locals. ‘Surplus with China but Profit is with America’ is the right way to describe it. So stop acting like a savior.
Illegal immigration is also becoming huge issues in China, a country not prepared for or even capable of handling immigration at all. We want only bond-fide tourists, business visitors and people with special skills not competing with locals. Many people I talk to think the life in China gave best value for the level of comfort and excitement. Something has to be done to restrict illegal immigration before it is too late- look at Guangzhou.

Again the policy will be refined- this is only the first attempt to enforce immigration laws. 友邦惊诧论？

July 2, 2008 @ 5:01 am | Comment

I’m curious…what do you mean by “Look at Guangzhou”?

July 2, 2008 @ 8:28 am | Comment

“Hard-working locals”? A persistent myth but easily destroyed by factual comparison of mainland China labour productivity with other countries (labor productivity is the quantity of output per time spent or numbers employed) or by anecdote, as Filipinos being preferred staff in many mainland Chinese restaurants and bars because they are hard-working, earnest and have less attitude problems than local staff, and that you – having been overseas for 8 years – should also know that many Taiwanese and Hong Kong managers think mainland Chinese are lazy and troublesome.

The biggest problem facing most foreign firms in China is training then retaining local staff; the quality of management staff in particular is not outstanding and is typically opportunistic, constantly on the make for immediately higher wages.海歸usually have inflated opinions of themselves (but very adept at re-arranging the organizational chart to acquire the maximum number of direct reports, inflating their positions so to speak) and are often at odds with local staff; I have personal experience of two such “sea turtles” who insisted on speaking English to everyone including mainland Chinese and Taiwanese. This was not for training’s sake but an exercise in egoism that antagonized everyone. So, too, many of these turtles think their appointment is by reason they can liase and control the foreigners when in fact they fail at their primary responsibility, which is to manage the firm to profitability, and so foreign firms in China continue to look to Hong Kong, Singapore or expats for management competency.

The fact also remains that despite large investment of capital and time most foreign-owned companies just don’t profit from mainland China business but depend on exports (usually back to their homeland) to justify continuing operations in China.

Surely you can admit that “illegal immigration” is not a problem in China which doesn’t even allow immigration for foreigners despite the allowance in the constitution? How many foreigners (外國人and not 港澳台胞) immigrate to China? How many foreigners settle down to live in China? Just look at the pitifully small numbers of housing units bought by foreigners (again, 外國人 and not 港澳台胞) to see the truth. Yes, it is also ignorantly easy to blame the poor job market on foreigners but that is not the reason why so many Chinese university graduates remain unemployed and underemployed. And so, most want to go overseas for opportunity, to increase their marketability, and for what they think is a sure road to wealth; sound familiar to you?

July 2, 2008 @ 11:13 am | Comment

-Scott

Many of your comments are irrlevant to the visa issue, but anyway I will start from the most relevant(which also happens to be most absurd)..

On the contrar, China has problem of illegal immigration, with no problem on legal immigration because allowed permanent residents of foreigner passport holders are small in number(rightly so due to population constraint), but there are more and more. My housing complex and those around are full of foreigners. Buying home is personal choice, though. Foreign buying will not be good news for locals who struggles with even higher housing cost anyway.

On profit- none of the companies I worked at have manufacturing operation in China but continue to expand exponentially in China anyway. Where did you get your ‘ most’ claim? It is more due to ‘expat’ compensation- one of my friend from Belgium came 2 years ago, earning more than the 100 workers at his factory combined- try to be profitable when you have many.

On productivity- bar/restaurant worker preference is probably more due to language and communication skills. This is also precisely a reflection on how relaxed immigration law on foreign labor in China.
Management needs to look at compensation paid when demanding quality performance. Many managers are more concerned about securing their positions than to develop & inspire local talents. My office experience in California and my responsibility to manage South Asia business tells me exactly how fragile those positions are.
One thing I agree with you- I do hate those ‘Speaking English’ attitude- returned Chinese are not a whole talented bunch anymore- many lacking necessary skills and went overseas with money because could not compete at home in the first place. My overseas experience did broadened my perspective, while I also contributed to American and European economy, paying above average taxes, with limited social benefit, spending, etc. Professional marketability is a natural drive-otherwise, did you come to China because of a demotion?

July 3, 2008 @ 1:58 pm | Comment

I addressed your initial post mostly by the points you raised explicitly or incidentally so you have little reason to complain about the relevancy of my comments to the visa issue. I was just addressing topics you raised no matter how absurd you now find them.

Chen, please look to the actual numbers of foreigners who have 房產證; moreover, foreigners are restricted to a single residential property. Now, for example, compare that to the numbers of 溫州人 who own properties; the local news reports one 溫州人 who is sitting on 23 separate properties. My own building in Shanghai with 150 units has some 40%+ by 溫州人, about 35% owned by Shanghainese who have returned from abroad, the rest owned by Taiwanese and those from Hong Kong, and three units are owned by foreigners. Ours is not a high-end property but cost about RMB8500-9000/sq.meter when bought in 2001; now the price is RMB27000+/sq.meter. The rise in the cost of housing is caused by domestic speculators and not foreigners (very, very few buy property). Full of foreigners? Less than 2% of Shanghai’s population is foreigners and most don’t stay for more than a year or two. As a foreigner I can tell you truthfully, the cost per square meter of housing in Beijing, Shanghai, Guangzhou or Shenzhen is now long past ridiculously high and a poor investment relative to value. The highest-end properties, like that bombastic monstrosity Shanghai Richgate (華府大廈), are owned by Taiwanese, Hong Kong Chinese and mainland Chinese who love such showy trash.

If you want information on foreign firms’ local profitability (i.e. profit derived from local business as opposed to exports) look to the government tax records, reports and surveys by competent reporting agencies like the Far Eastern Economic Review, and talk to those involved with foreign firms. In 2005 70% of the top exporting firms in China were foreign-owned and the bulk of China’s imports and exports is done by foreign firms, just like Taiwan in the 1970’s and 80’s.

My remarks on how Taiwanese and Hong Kong managers, from restaurant owners to operators of large businesses, see mainland Chinese workers stands. If you have truly spent time in Southeast Asia then you would know the attitudes of, say native Singaporeans, to the mainland Chinese at work, and the attitudes of say, Thais, to the mainland Chinese at play.

Most foreign managers come to this country with an explicit directive to find the person who will replace them and train the staff to work independently of the home office; can’t you understand that is the reason why foreign firms give such high salaries to rather ordinary local talents? And why so much time is spent trying to attract and keep local staff? Also, Chinese in the main prefer to work with foreign especially US companies for reason advancement is by merit and not connections, yet you deny that fact.

Now to my personal side. No, I wasn’t demoted nor do I advance by my rung on the corporate ladder, because my position and situation allow me to work in the Asia-Pacific region but live wherever I choose. I chose Shanghai to return to the language and culture I studied at university in the US and Taiwan, the language and culture of my wife of 26 years, and to stop travelling back and forth from the US to the region eight times a year. By the way, practically none of my business is done in China; I chose Shanghai because I like the city and people here and am generally liked in kind. Obviously you’re distressed by a city “full of foreigners” and I find it odd that you have “a friend from Belgium” but bitch about his compensation relative to 100 factory workers.

Now to your personal side. Did you not learn in all your time abroad that intellectual honesty was not only a virtue but necessary to self-respect?

July 3, 2008 @ 6:31 pm | Comment

Scott, thanks for a very reasonable and articulate response to a very dumb and mean-spirited comment.

July 3, 2008 @ 6:45 pm | Comment

May I ask, how many times the hourly wage of a factory worker or assembler is your salary? And, would you like your earnings based on that of a factory worker or assembler? Why not tell your wife and family that you will not accept earning more than 100 workers at the factory combined?

July 3, 2008 @ 6:47 pm | Comment

What about you , Scott? How would you do with the wage of a factory worker?

July 4, 2008 @ 6:04 am | Comment

Address your questions to Chen or go play with yourself and stop bothering the adults.

July 4, 2008 @ 8:37 am | Comment

Scott- again, you are picking fight irrelevant to the visa issue- I suggest you read the below link which will help you understand why China is enforcing the law, which ‘surprised’ some people.

http://www.chinalawblog.com/2008/04/china_visa_certainty_z_visas_a.html

Why I am saying you are ‘picking fight’? My initial comment was to moderate/balance the seemingly extreme narrow-minded exchanges. Acknowledging room for improvement and foreign contribution while giving perspective on why enforcing the immigration law now.

You manipulated many of my comments- ‘not competiting with locals’ is a well-regarded principle in general in immigration, desirable in drafting the regulation(i.e. INS/Labor ad requirement). I DIDN’T blame China job market on foreigners.

I mentioned high salary range in comparison to local workers, to support that many foreigners made high income relative to local standard. And this is part of the payback. It is just a fact. It is rediculous to take it personally. I didn’t want to limit my income, but I will be considerate to people around me, acknowledging I am somewhat priviledged economically, and I want to use more on local economy to help elevate the life of my fellow countrymen. In fact, 100 times now seems to be the minumum for regional positions, but I do hope it will get narrower quickly. In California, I used to make only 2 times more than the lower income working locals, where society is more sustainable.

-on housing. I mentioned my complex is full of foreingers, just to support that many Chinese cities are becoming hotbed, very attractive to people outside of China for opportunities, quality of life or even retirement. I DIDN’T get distressed by hearing languages I can’t understand in the lift.

Taking permanent immigration is another issue. as a country with limited resources, environmental issues inflated by polluting industry outsourcing and huge population, it is just not feasible to take much immigration, no matter how much foreigners like to settle here permanently. This is vastly different from America was founded on immigration. Try immigrate to other densely populated countries. Speculator is one major reason why housing is sky-rocketing, domestic speculators are to be blamed mostly, but also foreigners. There are countless of them from Korea and other countries owning many. That is why the new law on one housing per foreigner is a good step.

Using tax record of foreign companies operating China to document their local profitability is as reliable as proof of ‘weapon of mass destruction’. We all know the various tax scheme, transfer pricing (both import and export), expat cost and even China’s old tax incentive; which investors ‘smartly’ employed or took advantage of. Most of Amcham members report they are profitable through unanimous survey. Of course there are always business losing money, anywhere in the world, but why? Especially sitting on the second largest consumer market.

Again when I stated many facts, and I did not do it to point fingers but try to present a broader pictures from local perspective. If you can’t take facts, or have my-way-or-highway attitude to stay in your box, then pity for your travel experience.

I am also free to choose wherever I want to live in Asia. I chose China for good value on living and being closer to my extended family. People vote with feet, it is just natural for you, for me and for those Chinese you mentioned going abroad to increase marketabilities. I hope your China experience can enhance your marketability, not just on resume, but also on cross-culture thinking.

Again back to where it all started, the visa enforcement is a natural step to 1)enforce the existing law, 2) stop the already obvious visa-abuse, loopholes and illegal immigration trend. It is plain simple- if you want to work in China, get a Z-visa; if visiting, get a visitor visa.

I do support better communication, plus giving a provision on foreigners holding HK/Macau permanent ID to facilitate their travel. My friend in Switzerland just said it was pretty easy for him to get a tourist visa in Bern last week( not to mention it is 10 times easier than for me to Switzerland before), so he can come to Sichuan to offer help on relief effort.

– Richard-
I am very diappointed on your recent remark- why is stating fact mean-spirited and dumb? Is any part of my comment not true?

July 6, 2008 @ 4:21 pm | Comment

Quoted from the lead report:”Chinese authorities acknowledged putting new visa restrictions in place in May — after foreign embassies reported fewer visas being granted and tighter, sometimes seemingly arbitrary, restrictions. The government did not release guidelines detailing the changes in policy; it often does not. But a foreign ministry spokesman, Qin Gang, said in May that they would be temporary.”

Chen, people were “surprised” because the action was abrupt (the government did not announce the restrictions), without explanation (no guidelines) and apparently fickle, yet I never denied this or any government’s right to control entry but can reasonably question just what the hell they’re doing. I did not enter this discussion until Chen came along with a range of statements, explicit or implict, that visa restrictions would improve the job market, relieve housing speculation, that foreigners were taking advantage of hard-working locals, and that salaries were disproportionate and unjust. I did not manipulate your comments, I addressed them.

You say, “I hope your China experience can enhance your marketability, not just on resume, but also on cross-culture thinking.” Chen, I’m near the end of my worklife and don’t need future marketability, and after 40-odd years among the Chinese in several countries on two continents, the last seven years living in Shanghai in the apartment I own, your suggestion I’d benefit from cross-cultural thinking is presumptuous.

Chen, more than two years ago I attended a mainland China internet translation site for about two months until a few people discovered by my English that in fact I was a foreigner. After three days of hounding and abuse I simply had to leave. Other “foreigners” (yes, Europeans and North Americans) educated in Chinese have had similar experiences, so I’m not the one you should lecture about cross-cultural thinking. Like many Chinese you immediately assume anyone unlike you knows nothing about you or simply can’t understand. That still makes me angry.

July 6, 2008 @ 5:51 pm | Comment

Scott-

You ‘assembled’ all those statements that visa would ease housing, employment,salary, etc; not me. You twisted my comments, can’t you see even now? All I was saying is the visa policy is with good intention, will enforce the existing regulation, reduce visa abuse, filter skillset that China really needs, let alone security filtering. I repeatedly said it needs improvement, better communication, yet you conveniently continued to ignore all my main points, preferring to twist and pick fight.
-I cited the salary gap just to show foreigners generally benefitted a lot from China’s economic progress, I didn’t say it is unjust. So it is not a one-way contribution.
-You started housing price discussion. I agreed it is more due to domestic speculation, but foreign participation could be eased by the 1-year-old new restriction, which will help in general.
– China is not a country can handle immigration- it has too much domestic issues related to resource restraints to deal with already. Pity for all of the ‘misery’ to endure that there is no clear/easy path to P.R.

I am sympathetic with your departure from the internet
site, but I have no idea on your assumption made on me. On the contrary, you assumes a lot.

So much for the weekend- sense of failure on communication.

July 6, 2008 @ 7:30 pm | Comment

Chen, the reason I said it was mean-spirited and stupid were these words of yours:

I do hate those ‘Speaking English’ attitude- returned Chinese are not a whole talented bunch anymore- many lacking necessary skills and went overseas with money because could not compete at home in the first place. My overseas experience did broadened my perspective, while I also contributed to American and European economy, paying above average taxes, with limited social benefit, spending, etc. Professional marketability is a natural drive-otherwise, did you come to China because of a demotion?

That struck me as pretty mean-spirited and pretty dumb.

July 6, 2008 @ 8:00 pm | Comment