To me, it’s crazy to talk about all that if you are actually in China.

June 5, 2008 @ 9:33 am | Comment

@ joe: and yet we persist.

@ raj: i’d have posted earlier but the page wouldn’t load completely. i’m glad to see this here. it’s articulates something i feel/deal with every day that i’m otherwise unable to put to words. it’s difficult to not be frustrated to the point of giving up. anyway, this post and richards post before it have both been great. keep it up.

June 5, 2008 @ 10:02 am | Comment

Well, this is no surprise to me. I praise the swift response of the central government when they were confronted with the earthquake, but the open coverage of the disaster-relief efforts, and the response of several foreign media orgs and governments, left me stunned by the naivete of the latter parties.

Coverage of events that put the Party and the Chinese Government in a good light has always been encouraged. So when the government responds positively to a disaster, they naturally want full coverage of those positive events.

The only reason why anything about the tofu buildings has gotten out at all is because the problem is too obvious to overlook. You can’t hide the problem from the families of the victims or the rest of the country since the affected people are too numerous and the evidence is lying in heaps all over that corner of Sichuan for all to see.

Due to the nature of the catastrophe, the government naturally supported the mourning of the parents whose children died. But now, the warning has come: Don’t disrupt stability by making problems (even when your complaints are legitimate).

Expect more coverage of finding helicopter crashes and building diversion channels to drain quake lakes and rebuilding schools. As for that other problem, expect the government to select a few scapegoats. Then life will go on, except for the deceased of course. Heaven forbid someone actually take steps to ensure they did not die in vain….

June 5, 2008 @ 11:08 am | Comment

Raj,

I understand what these parents are going through. I can feel their pain. And the government should investigate. However, I think what these people are doing is not healthy and western journalists should not encourage their behavior.

These parents are not the only ones who lost love ones. Everybody, including those who lost family members, is still working 18 hours a day to save lives. There are hundreds of thousands injured people who still need treatment. There are over 5 million people who still need shelters. There is the threat of epidemics. There are over 30 quake lakes hanging over 1.3 million people’s head. The list goes on.

Has it ever occurred to you that perhaps seeking justice for these people is just not a top priority for the government right now? They’ve already promised an investigation, what else can they do at this point?

Besides, even if the court takes their case right away, it’s still going to take perhaps years to get a verdict. It’s not going to be an easy process and these people may not win the case either. It’s not black and white as it seems. Yes, this might be a case of corruption. But there are many other possibilities too. Let’s just list a few:

– The magnitude of the earthquake is 8.0, none of the schools were built to withstand anything over 7.0. This reason only might just killed the case.

– There are so many schools to build, but you have a very limited budget, what would you do? If this is the case, then it’s not necessarily a case of corruption. Mind you, China is still not a rich country, it was much poorer ten years ago.

– There might be design flaws. We all know school buildings have larger spans, they are easier to collapse than other types of buildings during an earthquake if they are not designed properly.

– Bad luck. Let’s take Juyuan high school as an example. The main building collapsed because of it’s orientation. It may not have survived anyway. The earth shook at the worst possible direction. There is a NHK documentary on CDT, go take a look.

Without a thorough investigation, we shouldn’t jump to conclusions. I don’t think the government can do much right now.

June 5, 2008 @ 11:27 am | Comment

AC, nice points, but none of that makes it appropriate to force people to shut up and stop mourning. These parents have the right to protest, regardless of circumstances or the possibilities you bring up.

June 5, 2008 @ 12:25 pm | Comment

AC: what planet do you live on? Oh, maybe Planet CCP, because a Xinhua article could not have been written any better.

You say the schools were not built to withstand anything above 7.0 – then tell me why every other building in most of these towns was still standing? Is it because the towns viewed their children as less important than the Party headquarters? They certainly spent enough on those buildings with their ‘limited budgets’ to make sure they did not fall down.

And what do you know about architecture? Bad luck? You are as insensitive as the rest of those pr—s.

June 5, 2008 @ 12:40 pm | Comment

And you also say ‘you feel their pain.’ I guess you don’t have kids, do you? Because if you did, you would never make such an asinine comment as that.

June 5, 2008 @ 12:44 pm | Comment

If it were my kids I would want nothing less than the public lynching of the officials concerned.

On the other hand the government still has a responsibility to maintain public order and deal with the issue in a measured way – especially in an area where the priority now is to restore order and ensure the immediate safety and well-being of millions of homeless people.

So what the parents are doing is understandable. What the government is doing is also understandable. Even in the West, no matter the rightness of your cause, you will be moved away if you cause public disorder or block a main thoroughfare. But at the same time if I was one of those parents I would be doing much worse.

So in the end this situation is just tragic. On the one hand the parents are more than justified in their rage and their wish for the opportunity to express that rage. On the other hand the government does have a responsibility to maintain public order for now.

But surely someone has to answer for those shoddy buildings – and not just some convenient scapegoat. So I think adopt a wait and see approach to the government’s handling of the issue over the next few months before passing judgement.

-deleted-

June 5, 2008 @ 10:20 pm | Comment

@AC,

You said, “I don’t think the government can do much right now.”

Oh yes, I think there’s much more to be done.

For example, not allowing anyone that’s ever been associated with overseeing, contracting, sub-contracting, building, servicing, certifying all these school buildings to leave the province, or the country until all investigation is complete and they proven innocent.

Imho, these m***er f***ers should all be assumed guilty until proven otherwise.

And I assure you that many of them are working real hard to flee the scene, like a bunch of shameless a$$h**es on a hot pan.

June 6, 2008 @ 2:20 am | Comment

Wayne,

I would have applauded you for your cool-headed comments if not for the last paragraph. Name-calling and personal attacks are main obstacles to any rational and constructive debate.

June 6, 2008 @ 2:26 am | Comment

I am deleting that last section of Wayne’s comment and giving him a formal warning. Careful, Wayne

June 6, 2008 @ 3:11 am | Comment

@Chip

AC, nice points, but none of that makes it appropriate to force people to shut up and stop mourning. These parents have the right to protest, regardless of circumstances or the possibilities you bring up

Of course these parents have the right to mourn and protest. But wouldn’t you say their timing of protest is a bit inappropriate? Surrounding officials during aftershocks while they are directing relief effort doesn’t look very appropriate to me. There are 5 million refugees, they are all hungry, tired and sad. Their grief can easily turn into anger, they all want to find something to blame. All you need is a little agitation, the situation can turn into a mess.

I started to worry after I saw those western journalists jumping all over the story. I know they are just following their “journalistic instinct,” digging up dirt is their job. But by showing up there day after day, they become part of their own story. Their appearance will make these parents think that they are on to something, which in reality may or may not be true.

I think what these parents need right now is comfort and psychological consoling, they should wait until things settle down a bit then seek legal action.

@bigdog

You say the schools were not built to withstand anything above 7.0 – then tell me why every other building in most of these towns was still standing? Is it because the towns viewed their children as less important than the Party headquarters? They certainly spent enough on those buildings with their ‘limited budgets’ to make sure they did not fall down.
And what do you know about architecture? Bad luck? You are as insensitive as the rest of those pr—s.

I don’t know where you get your news. “every other building in most of these towns was still standing”? Haven’t you seen the pictures? It’s true that a lot of the schools collapsed, but so did many other buildings, including party headquarters you mentioned. For example, in Beichuan county, 1/3 of the cadres died.

I am not an architect, I am a Mech Engr. Structural engineering is a part of my training, so I know a little bit of what I am talking about. 🙂

June 6, 2008 @ 4:28 am | Comment

They will use the traditional method of killing a chicken to frighten the monkeys.

They will investigate and identify some individuals to be executed for corruption linked to the contruction of the collapsed schools. Those selected will include some who are actually guilty, but are unfortunate enough to not have guanxi (connections) with the right people or they will be the designated fall guy to take the hit in order to protect a higher level person who does have guanxi. Some lucky individuals will not be guilty of corruption but will be unfortunate “chickens” who the CCP had planned to get rid of anyway.

The fenqing will talk about how the earthquake brought everyone together for the one united china.

June 6, 2008 @ 4:29 am | Comment

Why am I not suprised that Raj put an article like this? The article Raj quoted is full of “seem” “appear” and “are thought”. Talking about journalism and bias.

AC and Wayne already said it, no need to add anything now.

June 6, 2008 @ 4:35 am | Comment

@ fatbrick

The article Raj quoted is full of “seem” “appear” and “are thought”.

Well please excuse the BBC for being cautious and not making a black and white report!

Are you implying the parents as quoted are lying? I would rather hope not, but I would not be surprised if you are condemning the victims rather than the crooks at the heart of all of this.

June 6, 2008 @ 5:02 am | Comment

Totally agree with Lindel. And Fatbrick, it’s very interesting that the same people who keep accusing others of being biased and painting everything with a black and white brush then go ahead and blame them for expressing their thoughts in a rather careful manner.

P.S.: Is it really possible that all Wayne gets for his attack on Raj is: “I am deleting that last section of Wayne’s comment and giving him a formal warning. Careful, Wayne”?

You gotta be kidding, guys!!!

June 6, 2008 @ 6:52 am | Comment

Right now the Chinese authorities are concerned with evacuating a million people from danger if lakes burst, they are contending with aftershocks, housing and feeding three million homeless people and preventing outbreaks of infectious disease. Overall they have done a pretty good job so far – I am sure that any Western government would not have performed any better in a crisis like this – in fact rarely has any Western government been tested in such a way.

There is a time and a place for everything. Now is not the time to be conducting investigations to assign responsibility. The main thing now is to ensure the smooth running of all levels of the government apparatus – who are the main organizers of the relief effort. This is not unique to China. Even Western countries in periods of national emergency and war will suspend elections, suspend normal civil liberties – who was it who said “necessity knows no law?”

Of course if I was a parent I would not be interested in any of these arguments. So again their rage is entirely justified, and it will be hoped that the government will move, when the time is right, to deliver justice for these parents and pay compensation (needless to say no amount of compensation could ever extinguish the grief and anguish of losing a child).

Lindel is partly right. Of course not everyone who should be brought to account will be. Those who are brought to account will no doubt have culpability and will be dealt with harshly. They will likely be the little fish, or one or two big fish who have fallen out of favour with the other big fish. But I don’t think China is the only place in the world where this type of scenario plays out.

However regardless of how many officials who should be brought to account are not brought to account, I am ccertain that lessons have been learnt and building standards will be improved. Unfortunately human beings have a tendency to fix things only after a major wakeup call (often tragic) has been delivered.
English American writer John Derbyshire has coined the term “collective imprudence ” to describe this mindset.

And Raj. I am surprised you did not mention the sincere display of public contrition by Lin Qiang, the deputy head of Sichuan education bureau. Maybe bringing this article to light would not have helped your agenda:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/china/2055377/China-Earthquake-China's-guilt-over-lost-children.html

June 6, 2008 @ 7:21 am | Comment

From Wikipedia:

Coined by Derbyshire in July 2006, the Hypothesis of Collective Imprudence (HCI) stipulates that “no large collectivity of human beings (nation-state or larger) will ever act to avert an obvious calamity until that calamity begins to cause really major, dramatic, unignorable damage.”[40] Often, when humanity is confronted with prospect of a catastrophe, “Nothing will get done until something awful happens. Then something will get done.”

June 6, 2008 @ 7:26 am | Comment

From AP:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/china_earthquake;_ylt=AqgXl4JfQs6Zi4X8YRXyxNhPzWQA

…
The middle school in Juyuan — a national focal point of public anger after nearly 300 students died — was poorly sited and poorly built, Chen said.

Builders used prefabricated concrete slabs for the school, and the main classroom building lay parallel to the fault line, causing it to shake violently during the quake. That building collapsed while an adjacent building perpendicular to the fault line did not, Chen said.

Authorities have promised to investigate the school collapses in Sichuan province, but there has not been any word on the findings. Officials were analyzing samples of the debris but said the work would take time.
…

June 6, 2008 @ 7:43 am | Comment

mor, my warning to Wayne and the deletion of his offensive attack is how I always deal with people who are out of line. I delete what’s out of line and I warn them not to do it again. If they persist, I may ban them, but that is always a last resort.

June 6, 2008 @ 1:16 pm | Comment

I wonder if anyone can bring up other examples at the moment of open treatment of other controversial subjects right now that are not in the government’s interest.

June 6, 2008 @ 1:58 pm | Comment

And Raj. I am surprised you did not mention the sincere display of public contrition by Lin Qiang, the deputy head of Sichuan education bureau.

Did Lin apologise for the removal of the wreaths and say they’d be put back? The link you gave didn’t work.

Maybe bringing this article to light would not have helped your agenda

Do not flame – you’ve already been warned.

I don’t read every news article that is ever written, and I’m sure you know that. Furthermore I have yet to hear how whatever was said was relevant to what I blogged on. There have been many fine words but actions speak louder – and the recent actions as initally mentioned are disgusting.

June 6, 2008 @ 3:02 pm | Comment

@AC

The middle school in Juyuan — a national focal point of public anger after nearly 300 students died — was poorly sited and poorly built, Chen said.

Note the admission of “poorly built”, which is key to the parents’ arguments.

June 6, 2008 @ 3:05 pm | Comment

“The only objective way to judge June 4 is to think terms of Expected Values – sum of individual outcomes x individual probablilities [sic]. If outcomes are measured in terms of human suffering (however that is quantified), even killing perhaps 10,000 students could have been well worth it – even if the actual probability of turmoil would have been significant but not great.”

“And I have always had an aversion for hippie scum.”

“The US was worse. They bombed the shit out of Vietnam and sponsored Tibetan terrorists and the Dalai Lama. It was the Cold War you friggin airhead and everyone was doing this sort of thing.”

“Jerry Falwell got a similar reaction when he said that America got what was coming to it on Sept 11 due to its moral decadence. I tend to agree with him.”

Reminder for everybody: It’s OK to call people who get shot in their backs collateral damage and refer to them as “hippie scum”. It’s also OK to refer to Tibetans as “terrorists”. It’s even OK to say that on September 11th America got what was coming to it due to its moral decadence.
But you should never use words like panda licker, because that’s VERY BAD. Richard once wondered why his blogsite is “flypaper for people like …”
I think back then it was Jinhan and Youguys, now it’s trolls like Bob and Wayne, soon it’ll probably be good old Ferin and Hongxin.
Am I the only one who thinks that the answer to Richard’s question is pretty obvious?
You can tell other commenters to “get cancer and die” and Richard will point out that you sometimes write very smart comments. You can even make a vile ad hominem at one of the administrators and you will get “warned”.
And yes, I’m just a troll with too much time on my hands. And I’m going to continue this until I get banned from the Pekingduck, and I hope I will.

June 6, 2008 @ 6:18 pm | Comment

I’ll conveniently disregard the inter-personal issues of some commenters here and try to get back to the topic.

I personally also have a hard time swallowing AC’s statement that the actions of the mourning parents are “not healthy”. I wonder how “healthy” you can get when your child just died in a country with a one-child policy. Though I am not blind to some of the arguments with respect to the bigger picture and the continuing need for large-scale help, which makes actions as those set up by those parents somewhat “inconvenient”, grief is something that almost is impossible to be reined in by reason.

And let’s admit it, if nothing is done now, we all know how this will end, right ? As soon as all the dead have been buried and the survivors moved to safer places, the cranes, caterpillars and trucks will move in and start to remove all the debris left by the quake, in order to allow for a speedy reconstruction and a return to semi-normal life. Once that is done, there will be no evidence left to be investigated; on the processes that eventually will follow, officials and building contractors will ask “where is the proof that the schools collapsed due to shoddy construction ?”; there will be nothing left to show, so no one will ever know whether it was intentional neglect and if so, who was responsible for it; some scapegoats will be selected by way of example and that’ll be all there is to it.

I wonder, if it is possible to send in thousands and thousands of soldiers from other areas to help in the relief effort (which I loudly applaud), is it then not possible to send in a couple of experts from outside areas, who could at least listen to the grievances of the parents and start an – albeit minimal- preliminary investigation ?

June 6, 2008 @ 7:02 pm | Comment

Not totally relevant at this thread maybe, but a Chinese friend told me something intriguing last night.

The best way into the disaster area is from the north, so logically the Lanzhou military district would have been the best base for mounting rescue efforts. But because Lanzhou is so busy watching Tibet, the government decided that help should come from Chengdu military district to the south, despite the fact that access is much more difficult.

I haven’t checked whether this rumour holds up or not (or even the correct names of the military districts). But I thought it’s interesting that this kind of rumour is going around in China.

June 6, 2008 @ 7:30 pm | Comment

Here is the article Raj.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/chinese-official-feels-guilt-over-child-deaths-1393099.html

Raj: why the bitterness and hatred against Chinese?

June 6, 2008 @ 8:13 pm | Comment

Richard

Hi, I’m new to your very interesting blog & don’t know yet what your rules are.

I wanted to post a reply on the “June 4” thread but had a temporary computer problem. I now find that thread’s been closed. Do I take it that it will not be reopened? If I post the reply on this thread, anticipating that the intended recipient will see it at some point, would that be out of line? It would obviously be off topic here.

Regards.

June 6, 2008 @ 8:24 pm | Comment

@ Wayne

Here is the article Raj.

As I thought, fine words but they do not counter the point I was discussing in the blog entry. It is all very well someone saying “sorry”, but if that person then spits in the face of those he/she was apologising to it means nothing. The Chinese authorities were spitting in the faces of the parents if they removed those wreaths and insisted they shut up to make their lives easier.

Raj: why the bitterness and hatred against Chinese?

I would guess that the parents of the victims are bitter and hate the Chinese authorities in question because their lax oversight and/or corruption led to the deaths of their children. I thought that was plainly obvious.

June 6, 2008 @ 8:56 pm | Comment

@ Jer

I now find that thread’s been closed. Do I take it that it will not be reopened?

Normally that is the case – unless richard re-opens it. I suggest you correspond with him via e-mail in the future if you want him to do that.

If I post the reply on this thread, anticipating that the intended recipient will see it at some point, would that be out of line?

As I wrote this entry I would appreciate it if you did not. If you do then it will make discussion of this particular topic very difficult. Thanks.

June 6, 2008 @ 8:58 pm | Comment

I will reopen the thread temporarily. If I see any ganging up and inappropriate comments I’ll shut it down again. Sorry, but the fenqing faction really got on my nerves last night.

mor, I hear what you say. I think you know I don’t like to ban commenters or delete but I’ll consider being a little more aggressive.

June 6, 2008 @ 10:37 pm | Comment

Protesters and grieving parents will be arrested also and imprisoned if t they complaign too much or for too long or about the “wrong” person.

These incidents and the protests in Lhasa are symptoms of the same same problem.

Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

June 6, 2008 @ 11:00 pm | Comment

@Raj

We all know SOME buildings were poorly built, no questions there. The question is WHY they were poorly built. Was it because of corruption? Was it because of insufficient fund? Was it because of poor engineering? Who should we blame? We don’t know for sure right now, do we? All you have is suspicion and speculation.

I want justice and compensations for the parents as much as anybody. But if you want to look at the problem objectively, you need to look at the bigger picture and put your emotions aside.

We can not let the media set the agenda, especially the Western media.

@Lao Lu

What I was trying to say is turning grief into anger is not healthy.

Please read the AP report I posted in #19, evidently at least some investigations have been conducted. We just have to wait and see.

June 6, 2008 @ 11:04 pm | Comment

AC,

“Was it because of corruption?” You bet ya~!

Anybody who’s got enough sense about the Chinese society knows this for a fact, it’s a “lice on a bald head” (not that there’s anything wrong with baldness). The question isn’t if, but who, and where in hell those f**ckers are.

“But if you want to look at the problem objectively, you need to look at the bigger picture and put your emotions aside.”

Sounds like the prelude of a grander voice, “sacrifice yourself for the bigger picture”.

June 7, 2008 @ 1:55 am | Comment

I wonder if besides the possible use of shoddy materials, there is also fundamental flaw in school design. There was a need to provide schools for a big child population. The schools were build with big rooms that cold held classes of more than 70 kids, but big open spaces make also the buildings structurally less sound, even if there was no corner cutting with the building materials.

After the painful experience, I would rather build smaller buildings, maybe cluster them in same area (instead of making a bing single one) with enough open spaces in between for fast evacuation in case of major quake. Maybe even build them ringing the inner space to provide defense against landslide and rocks falling from nearby slopes.
No idea what kind of structural design could be most resistant to an 7.9 quake.

About parents protest. If any government tried to do that here, it would not last much longer in power. I fear the usual sweeping of the problems under the rug with the CCP. It it a pity, after open media coverage of the disaster it looks like a return to previous practices. I do not consider it a wise movement. I hope it is not a return to the practices of the past.

Another thought. I wonder if some of the orphans kids can adopted now by some of the childless families in the same area.

June 7, 2008 @ 5:25 am | Comment

Raj: What that happened was the protesting parents were removed from in front of the courthouse. This is the same everywhere in the world. You cannot sit outside a courthouse in America blocking traffic and causing public disorder. The police were not brutal in the way they dispersed the crowd. It was not a case of firing teargas into the crowd and batoning them – as Raj would prefer you to believe.

“A standoff between the parents, many carrying framed photos of their dead children, and the police officers, dressed in black uniforms, lasted for several hours. In the end, the parents walked away.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/04/world/asia/04china.html

Even the picture here show the police were restrained:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/jun/03/chinaearthquake.china?gusrc=rss&feed=networkfront

But notice how the poisonous Western media is at it again “as black-suited police wearing riot helmets manhandled them.” (from same article above)

Look at the pictures. Were any of the police wearing riot helmets?

A similar demonstration would be broken up in Western Europe or the US.

The government has said that action will be taken about the buildings and the parents compensated – in time.

The parents actions are completely understandable. But at the moment the main task is the relief effort underway. Four million homeless, thousands of orphans to find homes for, and continual aftershocks. One thing at a time – although the parents frustrations and anger are, again, wholly understandable and justified.

What is not justified is the delight some seem to take in using the tragedy and this incident as a political poker chip in which to bash China.

And Raj: as far as building contruction is concerned, many countries have problems with corruption in this area. I know that in Hong Kong during the 1960s during its building boom the same thing was going on in a massive way. Cantonese call it “tau gung gaam liu” (cut corners, reduce materials) Construction is one of the most corrupt industries around. Even now old housing estates built 40 years ago have chunks of concrete spalling away and falling off – even in the more expensive areas like Mid-Levels.

June 7, 2008 @ 6:44 am | Comment

Another thought. I wonder if some of the orphans kids can adopted now by some of the childless families in the same area.

“Many of the children orphaned could end up being adopted by parents who lost children in the quake…..Those from local ethnic minority groups, such as the mountain-living Qiang or Tibetans, will be found homes that will ensure the minimum of disruption as well as respect for their religious traditions.”

From:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/asia/article4069053.ece

June 7, 2008 @ 7:20 am | Comment

“mor, I hear what you say.”

Thanks for that, Richard. I really like your blog site and I have a lot of respect for you, but I’m going to be a little more aggressive myself from now on. (As long as I am free and it’s raining in this part of the world.)

@AC (asinine commenter)

“We all know SOME buildings were poorly built, no questions there.”

Oh really! BIG SURPRISE! is it really possible that some buildings in China are poorly built? what about the Bird’s Nest? Oh I forgot, stadiums for the Olympics are much more important that those pigsties in which China’s future is taught the basics of neoliberal capitalism.

“The question is WHY they were poorly built.”

I guess the answer to that question is going to take a while for you. I’ll tell you. It’s because the Chinese government doesn’t have any money left for school buildings after they spent it all for stupid projects like Shenzhou 1 to 6 or hosting the Olympic Games or subsidizing government officials who spend the autumn of life in Canada or USA.

“Was it because of corruption?”

Noooo! Impossible! There is no corruption in China. And if there is, it’s just as bad as in the evil US of A. Which means it’s OK. Chinese patriots working for the government have to make a living, somehow, someway, don’t you understand?

“Was it because of insufficient fund?”

Big problem, those insufficient funds. You have to spend money on space programs, Olympic Games, the Three Gorges Dam, keeping people under house arrest (that baby daughter of Hu Jia uses up a lot of tax payer’s money) and there’s nothing left for building proper schools. Can’t you understand that?

“Was it because of poor engineering?”

Impossible! There’s no poor engineering in China. China invented engineering!!! Five freaking thousand years ago!!! When Europeans where still butchering monkeys to fill their lunch boxes!!!

“Who should we blame?”

It’s easy. Whenever something bad happens in China, it’s the work of evil outside forces, in other words: bad, bad laowai.

“We don’t know for sure right now, do we?”

You certainly don’t and you never will. And that’s why China is not going to change in the nearby future, because the people who could change something will always say: “We don’t know for sure if those buildings collapsed because they were built sloppily. They might have collapsed anyway …”

“All you have is suspicion and speculation.”

I’ve lived and worked in China for 7 years and I know for a fact that schools in China are built in a way that would get you into prison immediately in any civilized country in the world. And you know that as well. That’s why you choose to live in the USA.

“I want justice and compensations for the parents as much as anybody.”

So what are you going to do for the parents?

“But if you want to look at the problem objectively, you need to look at the bigger picture and put your emotions aside.”

Easy to say as long as your child didn’t die.

“We can not let the media set the agenda, especially the Western media.”

You set the agenda, then. You tell us how to deal with deaths that could have been avoided, but weren’t, because the government was busy spending money on coaches from Europe who make sure that China wins more gold medals than the evil USA.

June 7, 2008 @ 9:08 am | Comment

Mor, every country has budgets for different things. China does not spend an inordinate amount on defense, sports or football stadiums. If you have information that they do can you please provide information to substantiate your claim.

The problem was local corruption. Local corruption is endemic in 3rd Word countries – communist or otherwise. And construction is the one industry which is plagued with this type of problem more than most.

Another thing worth mentioning is that people from previously poor countries will often skimp on measures that are preventative in nature – -insurance, fire safety, building safety, maintenance, even medical tests-why spend money on something that may never happen?

From personal experience- convincing my in-laws in Guangzhou to install fire alarms in their home, was a taxing experience. And many of the anti-burglary metal grids that seal off windows and other entry points in Guangdong would make the buildings concerned a death trap in the even of a fire.

I know for a fact that schools in China are built in a way that would get you into prison immediately in any civilized country in the world. And you know that as well. That’s why you choose to live in the USA.

Mor – just get real. Stop making emotive and brainless comments. How the heck can you compare standards in a developed country like the US with China – a still developing country? Might as well compare India to Germany, Indonesia to Luxembourg – utterly absurd.

June 7, 2008 @ 9:51 am | Comment

can you please provide information to substantiate your claim.

mor doesn’t do that. He has a friend that knows this, a friend that knows that, and will say it 300,000 times. That means he is right.

Europeans where still butchering monkeys to fill their lunch boxes!!!

Actually they had lots of forest animals to eat, as well as berries, when they were cavorting in the wilderness.

June 7, 2008 @ 12:16 pm | Comment

@mor

So insulting people you don’t agree with is your idea of “a little more aggressive”? Is that what your daddy and mommy taught you?

@Richard

There used to be some knowledgeable, decent and civilized expats on this blog, where the hell did they all go?

June 7, 2008 @ 12:35 pm | Comment

@AC
“There used to be some knowledgeable, decent and civilized expats on this blog,
where the hell did they all go?”

Visa extension problems may be…. 😉

June 7, 2008 @ 3:21 pm | Comment

@ Wayne

A similar demonstration would be broken up in Western Europe or the US.

You are quite clearly dodging the points raised in the BBC article. I’ll quote here so you can see even more clearly:

Officials pledged to allow a proper investigation, but now appear to be backtracking. One example of this came on Tuesday when scores of parents went to Dujiangyan People’s Court.

They went to file a lawsuit, reportedly against the headmaster of the city’s Juyuan Middle School, which collapsed killing hundreds of pupils. Eyewitnesses say they were prevented from handing over their document and were dragged away by police officers.

Since Monday, two of the city’s collapsed schools – scenes of moving memorial services – have been sealed off to most people. Grieving parents say wreaths left on the rubble at Xinjian Primary School were taken away by officials.

Nationally, state-controlled media outlets have been told to rein in coverage of the schools issue.

I didn’t mention demonstrations being broken up once – you raised it.

June 7, 2008 @ 4:12 pm | Comment

They went to file a lawsuit, reportedly against the headmaster of the city’s Juyuan Middle School, which collapsed killing hundreds of pupils. Eyewitnesses say they were prevented from handing over their document and were dragged away by police officers.

Raj: how do you know that correct procedure was followed? How do you know that you can just walk up to a courtroom and bring a case against a fellow who may well have had nothing to do with the carnage (the headmaster?) If a similar incident happend in the West certain procedures still have to be followed.

Wreaths were removed – how the hell does anyone know who moved them, maybe a mistake- maybe someone being insensitive. I really don’t think it was a deliberate act to increase the suffering of these parents -although Raj will do his utmost to construe it as such. Maybe because the authorities were getting ready to clear away the rubble and did not wish to chuck the wreaths and portraits etc out with the rubble? That to me would seem a more likely explanation.

In the pictures the police, to me, seemed to be treating the parents with understanding and gentleness.

Raj builds up his case on one or two soundbites and an incident no one can really claim to understand yet.

Trolling deleted

June 7, 2008 @ 5:42 pm | Comment

But it’s ok, because Wen Jiabao cried on TV, and that makes up for everything – apparently.

Wen Jiabao did more than just ‘cry.’ A trained engineer, he helped organize probably the most efficient relief organization ever seen in modern history, by any government, in response to one of the worst natural disasters in the past three decades faced by any nation. And in a country with a per-capita income still less than a twentieth of the US.

June 7, 2008 @ 6:04 pm | Comment

@Wayne

“Mor, every country has budgets for different things. China does not spend an inordinate amount on defense, sports or football stadiums. If you have information that they do can you please provide information to substantiate your claim.”

Sometimes, when I talk to people like Wayne, I have the feeling there must be more than one China. Maybe there is another China existing in a parallel universe. Or maybe there’s another China somewhere in the Midwest of the USA and that’s where people like Wayne live.

“Another thing worth mentioning is that people from previously poor countries will often skimp on measures that are preventative in nature – -insurance, fire safety, building safety, maintenance, even medical tests-why spend money on something that may never happen?”

Exactly right! And if something happens you can always complain about the bad foreigners not donating enough money.

“The problem was local corruption. Local corruption is endemic in 3rd Word countries – communist or otherwise. And construction is the one industry which is plagued with this type of problem more than most.”

Another old CCP myth. It’s just the bad local officials, the central government can’t be blamed for anything.

“From personal experience- convincing my in-laws in Guangzhou to install fire alarms in their home, was a taxing experience. And many of the anti-burglary metal grids that seal off windows and other entry points in Guangdong would make the buildings concerned a death trap in the even of a fire.”

Not only in Guangdong, everywhere in China. I once worked in a school where they locked all emergency exits to prevent students from skipping class! And those idiots are educating China’s future. Alarm bells are ringing!

“Mor – just get real. Stop making emotive and brainless comments. How the heck can you compare standards in a developed country like the US with China – a still developing country? Might as well compare India to Germany, Indonesia to Luxembourg – utterly absurd.”

And again, the old litany! On one side, China wants to be respected by the rest of the world, they are hosting the Olympic Games, they are dreaming of becoming the world’s next super power, on the other side you can’t compare China with the USA, because it’s just a developing country. Of course you can compare China with other countries. You obviously made the comparison a while ago. And you came to the conclusion you’d rather live in an English-speaking democracy than in the worker’s paradise PRC.

June 7, 2008 @ 9:10 pm | Comment

@Ferin

My favorite yankee troll is back. Sorry to disappoint you, I haven’t died of cancer yet. And I didn’t memorize those FBI stats. How’s life in good, old America?

June 7, 2008 @ 9:14 pm | Comment

@AC

“So insulting people you don’t agree with is your idea of “a little more aggressive”? Is that what your daddy and mommy taught you?”

I’ll tell you what my parents taught me. They said: “Think about what you are going to say before you open your mouth! If you criticize others they might talk back, so be prepared to take the heat!”

“There used to be some knowledgeable, decent and civilized expats on this blog, where the hell did they all go?”

They were driven away by certain commenters like the one that collectively insulted their wives or the one who refers to the victims of a massacre as “hippie scum”. So now you are left with obnoxious trolls like me. But don’t worry, I might get banned for using bad words like “panda licker” sooner or later and then you can turn this blog into a “We are all living in the USA, but we are the ultimate China experts”-club.

June 7, 2008 @ 9:26 pm | Comment

Sometimes, when I talk to people like Wayne, I have the feeling there must be more than one China. Maybe there is another China existing in a parallel universe. Or maybe there’s another China somewhere in the Midwest of the USA and that’s where people like Wayne live.

Mor: I asked you to substantiate your claim that China spends an inordinate amount of money on the military and sports stadiums etc. Surely the information should be easy to find, given the confidence in which you express your assertions.

Evidence please.

June 7, 2008 @ 9:46 pm | Comment

@ Wayne

how do you know that correct procedure was followed? How do you know that you can just walk up to a courtroom and bring a case against a fellow who may well have had nothing to do with the carnage (the headmaster?)

That’s for the Court to decide – not the Police or local officials. The whole point with a Court action is that a claim is filed and then things happen. Evidence is produced – you can’t decide on whether someone can be sued before the claiming party even get to present their claim!

If a similar incident happend in the West certain procedures still have to be followed.

I can tell you that in the UK no one would ever be physically restrained from going to Court to start an action against another person or organisation.

What is known however is the British are the most vindictive when it comes to anti-China bashing

Actually the worst anti-China bashing comes from trolls like yourself who would prefer the victims of corruption and State autocracy be repressed and silenced rather than upset the apple cart and your interests. The fact you make racist comments about “the British” demonstrates the lack of depth to your arguments.

I’ve given you plenty of lattitude with your comments so far but I’ve had enough. If you can’t make comments without bashing others then either go find a new blog to troll or at least keep off my threads. Hong, the same applies to you.

June 7, 2008 @ 11:13 pm | Comment

@Wayne

If you want to, we can go to China together and I’ll provide you with first-hand evidence. But I’m afraid abusive foreign trolls like you are not welcome in the People’s Republic.

@Red Star

Isn’t it great to live in a free country where you have access to BBC?

June 7, 2008 @ 11:18 pm | Comment

Isn’t it great to live in a free country where you have access to BBC?

bbc.co.uk is totally accessible in China, please don’t lie.

Although I wish it weren’t, it’s a complete waste of internet bandwidth.

June 8, 2008 @ 12:13 am | Comment

Does that mean that you are staying in China now?

June 8, 2008 @ 12:29 am | Comment

bbc.co.uk is totally accessible in China, please don’t lie.

Not the Chinese service of the BBC news service. Only the English version is currently available, which means a majority of Chinese can’t access it – and who knows how long that will be available?

June 8, 2008 @ 12:34 am | Comment

“bbc.co.uk is totally accessible in China, please don’t lie.”

Including the Chinese language services on the website?

“Although I wish it weren’t, it’s a complete waste of internet bandwidth.”

Who needs the Internet when we have CCTV?

June 8, 2008 @ 12:35 am | Comment

Thanks for that piece of information, Raj. I thought as much.

June 8, 2008 @ 12:37 am | Comment

Including the Chinese language services on the website?

Your original assertion was that BBC was inaccessible in China, meaning that Chinese citizens have no access to BBC’s content. http://www.bbc.co.uk is clearly accesible in China, and therefore Chinese citizens DO have access to the majority of BBC’s content.

You=teh lose.

Who needs the Internet when we have CCTV?
Lol. Please, don’t be too CNN.

And please raise your IQ points. If you don’t have any, buy a few at the local grocery store, I heard they are on sale.

June 8, 2008 @ 3:09 am | Comment

“Chinese citizens DO have access to the majority of BBC’s content.”

If they know English, that is.

“You=teh lose.”

You obviously don’t.

June 8, 2008 @ 3:24 am | Comment

“HongXing: Chinese citizens DO have access to the majority of BBC’s content.”
“Mor: If they know English, that is.”

In the eye of CCP, only the middle class are mature enough to read and digest BBC’s content. Surely they don’t want the peasant class have access to the BBC’s content. Just a like an Vietnamese American friend once told me, you don’t want to bring African American from inner city to the suburb to see how the other half REALLY lives.

I might get flamed for saying this, but I am glad that I am not part of the 800-million-peasant class in China, I am part of the other 600 million whatever you call it :). Democracy is bad for the other half presently.

June 8, 2008 @ 4:42 am | Comment

mor is right. Hong, you are either playing dumb or under the illusion that a majority of Chinese read English. Neither answer is good and I suggest that you hang your head in humiliation.

And just to shame you even further, mor was not referring to Delia Smith’s recipes or TV guides when he was talking about access to the BBC website – he was talking about the news.

@ fobtacular

In the eye of CCP, only the middle class are mature enough to read and digest BBC’s content

I doubt that considering that not that many middle class Chinese are so proficient that they can read everything the BBC has to say in English. Also access to BBC News was only given a few months ago, so unless you’re saying you were immature up until that time the argument doesn’t wash.

Democracy is bad for the other half presently.

From what I’ve seen I think the peasants should get the vote first because the ultra-nationalist biggots in Chinese society are almost all middle class. Or, consdering they’re also generally men, maybe it would be even better give the vote to women and disenfranchise men for 50 years.

June 8, 2008 @ 6:24 am | Comment

When seeing the overwhelming charity and donation and volunteerism erupt from inside China and the generally quick relief efforts (as admitted, however grudgingly, by most Western press), many people on this blog became more heart-broken than the parents of the those dead school children.

The only consolation came when they found the news of “officials silencing quake victims”. When one of them read that news, finally, he saw a glimmer of light in these dark weeks after the earthquake, finally, they’ve found their usual material, their lifesaver, and they swiftly moved to ensure that no effort is spared in digging possible juice out of that lone piece of good news. And this blog entry was hastily written, with cheer and glee.

This, is the psychological portrait of many on this blog.

June 8, 2008 @ 8:15 am | Comment

From what I’ve seen I think the peasants should get the vote first

This is what we would call “1949-1976”. Ultra-nationalist bigot? How many of those are there, 1,000?

Trolling deleted

June 8, 2008 @ 1:48 pm | Comment

China wants to be respected by the rest of the world, they are hosting the Olympic Games, they are dreaming of becoming the world’s next super power, on the other side you can’t compare China with the USA, because it’s just a developing country.

On one hand, the U.S wants to kill all their natives, bomb Iraqis to death, support dictatorships, export weapons and implements used in torture, lie and deceive, and pollute and eat the world to death but on the other hand they want to be worshipped and thought of as the light of the world and an exemplary democracy.

June 8, 2008 @ 1:51 pm | Comment

@fobtacular

As Raj already pointed out, it would be a big mistake to assume that a majority or even a big minority of the Chinese middle class is fluent in English. In spite of the English learning craze in recent years very few Chinese people would be able to read the news in English. And to all those fenqing out there, I’m not criticizing China or the Chinese people. I’m just stating a fact. For Chinese people European languages are as difficult as Chinese is for us. That’s why Chinese language services like the one provided by BBC could be so useful if they were accessible.

And if all Chinese people had access to independent media, they sooner or later would also be ready for democracy. Actually, I think, the ones not ready for democracy are those at the top level of Chinese society (and I’m not only talking about party members) who have to fear for their privileges.

June 8, 2008 @ 5:29 pm | Comment

@Raj

Good idea, and I certainly would exclude all those from voting who keep saying that China is not ready for democracy.

June 8, 2008 @ 5:34 pm | Comment

Richard has banned Wayne from the blog. Any posts he makes will be deleted, as will any that interact with him – ignore him, please. You can e-mail richard if he appears on any thread.

@ferin

You are fast going wayne’s way. Stop it – now. You have been given plenty of chances to reform on this blog.

This is what we would call “1949-1976″.

When people talk about the vote, they mean the opportunity to vote for presidents, MPs, etc directly without restrictions on who can stand. Mao was never elected to office in a national election. For any elections there have been under the CCP only Communists or Communist-approved candidates can stand. That isn’t democracy.

Interesting you didn’t comment on women getting the vote first – I take it you agree then that Chinese men aren’t “ready” for democracy?

Ultra-nationalist bigot? How many of those are there, 1,000?

You are deluded if you think there are only 1,000 racists/ultra-nationalists amongst a population of over 1 billion people.

June 8, 2008 @ 5:47 pm | Comment

When people talk about the vote, they mean the opportunity to vote for presidents, MPs, etc directly without restrictions on who can stand. Mao was never elected to office in a national election. For any elections there have been under the CCP only Communists or Communist-approved candidates can stand. That isn’t democracy.

Let’s say China becomes a democratic society with Chinese characteristic tommorrow, and there are two candidates vie for presidency.

Candidate A would advocate land re-distribution, wealth re-distribution. And might even go as far to say that “those of you who are living in the rural area are welcome to move to the city, and the city dwellers are required by law to accommdate new comers with their house.” That is the peasants can live in the same apartment owned by the middle class. The 800 million Chinese rurual peasants would be 100% behind candidate A. The proletarian candidate.

Candidate B would advocate status quo. On top of that he would promise stronger crack down on corruption, which has been promised by CCP since they came to power and achieved “DEBATABLE” result. Candidate B would NOT be backed by 100% of those 600 million Chinese that are not part of the 800 million rural peasants. The bourgeoisie candidate.

It is easy to see that candidate A would win the presidency. Some of you might say the above scenario would not happen in China, but it did happen in 1949. Of course the Chinese did NOT vote for Mao by going to the booth to cast their ballot, they voted Mao with guns and bullets by helping him defeat the nationalist party.

June 9, 2008 @ 4:55 pm | Comment

This is a great example of why China is such a piece of crap society and government and the country must be taken apart by all means neccessary and the sooner the better.

June 9, 2008 @ 7:57 pm | Comment

Interesting you didn’t comment on women getting the vote first – I take it you agree then that Chinese men aren’t “ready” for democracy?

I didn’t respond because it was a ridiculous comment and I thought you were joking. No, women should not get the vote first, but they should “get the vote” the same time men do. If you want to be selective I’d say well-educated people should get the vote first.

You are deluded if you think there are only 1,000 racists/ultra-nationalists amongst a population of over 1 billion people.

At least 800 million of them don’t really have a reason to be ultranationalists. Only ultranationalists I see here are British and American.

ready for democracy

The average American proved he wasn’t ready in 2000 and 2004.

June 10, 2008 @ 1:17 am | Comment

@ ferin

At least 800 million of them don’t really have a reason to be ultranationalists.

Why?

Only ultranationalists I see here are British and American.

That’s because you have your head in the sand.

The average American proved he wasn’t ready in 2000 and 2004.

Democracy means everyone’s opinion counts, not just yours. Americans were certainly ready, but you clearly aren’t.

June 10, 2008 @ 2:25 am | Comment

At least 800 million of them don’t really have a reason to be ultranationalists.

Because they haven’t been exposed to people like BOB/Uncle Jeb, mor, kevin, or nanhe.

That’s because you have your head in the sand.

Are you saying the British and Americans are evil sand people?

Democracy means everyone’s opinion counts, not just yours. Americans were certainly ready, but you clearly aren’t.

No. Democracy means the majority’s opinion counts (sometimes.. Bush didn’t even win the popular vote the second time) and everyone else is ignored. Unforunately, dumb people are the majority. It should be called dumbocracy.

June 10, 2008 @ 4:53 am | Comment

Because they haven’t been exposed to people like…

How do you know that? And how do you know that 300 million or so Chinese have been exposed?

Are you saying the British and Americans are evil sand people?

No, I’m saying you’re in denial.

Unforunately, dumb people are the majority.

Now you see that’s why I consider people like yourself far more anti-Chinese than people like mor or nanhe. I don’t think a majority of people in China are dumb.

Bush didn’t even win the popular vote the second time

Actually he did – he didn’t get it the first time. I guess that would put you in the “dumb” category.

June 10, 2008 @ 5:28 am | Comment

@fobtacular

Let’s say China becomes a democratic society with Chinese characteristic tommorrow, and there are two candidates vie for presidency.

Irrelevant – no one here expects that to happen. The most people would like to see is an end to people being illegally placed under indefinite house arrest, beaten to an inch of their life (or further) by goons hired by officials, and generally a bit more repsect for Chinese who don’t happen to be linked to the movers-and-shakers n China and/or have a problem that they need fixing. That would be a start.

Of course the Chinese did NOT vote for Mao by going to the booth to cast their ballot, they voted Mao with guns and bullets by helping him defeat the nationalist party.

No, “the Chinese” did not do anything like that. Most stayed at home wishing the people with guns would go away and let them get on with their lives. Those that participated in the fighting on either side were very much the minority.

June 10, 2008 @ 5:33 am | Comment

I don’t think a majority of people in China are dumb.

I don’t think so either. But I would say it’s true for America.

I guess that would put you in the “dumb” category.

No you. I made a slip up.

illegally placed under indefinite house arrest, beaten to an inch of their life (or further) by goons hired by officials, and generally a bit more repsect for Chinese who don’t happen to be linked to the movers-and-shakers n China and/or have a problem that they need fixing. That would be a start.

Again, what does this have to do with democracy? America is a democracy, yet it still has huge problems.

June 10, 2008 @ 6:43 am | Comment

I don’t think so either.

Actually I think you do believe that – it would explain your hostility to democracy in China. Why is Americans being “dumb” relevant to China otherwise?

No you. I made a slip up.

Haha, now we’re to “no YOU’RE stupid” are we? You make “slip-ups” as you put it all the time.

Again, what does this have to do with democracy?

Democracy is about respect for human rights, not just elections. And if you think the US isn’t so hot, China can be a democracy like Iceland or Germany.

June 10, 2008 @ 3:04 pm | Comment

Democracy 101

Democracy ain’t a silver bullet for all of y’all’s societal problems. It’s not meant to do that.

Those who think democracy ain’t worth jack simply because democratic countries have problems, do not have a valid argument.

It’s a science, not a religion. People shouldn’t abolish the whole idea simply because it’s not perfect. In the scientific world, nothing is perfect. Engineering is about balancing the advantages and disadvantages and finding the best solution to suit individual situations. Same goes for the societal systems.

That’s why the pioneers of the modern China advocated “Mr. De and Mr.Sai” meaning Democracy and Science, as the solution for China. They didn’t pull these two words out of their ass for no reason.

It still holds so true today.

Mr. Mao said, “实事求是”. Some of y’all need to look at those words real hard. It ain’t easy, but it is the only way to go.

June 10, 2008 @ 9:39 pm | Comment

it would explain your hostility to democracy in China. Why is Americans being “dumb” relevant to China otherwise?

I don’t think “democracy” is perfect anywhere, and it definitely will not solve most (if any at all) of China’s problems. In fact, it will probably just waste everyone’s time and create even more problems. My point about America is that they wouldn’t be able to make any form of government “work” because they have too many idiots and assholes. It was a genocidal slave colony before, a fascist-supporting plutocracy in the mid-term, and now an international terrorist, thug and deceiver.

You make “slip-ups” as you put it all the time.

No, I don’t. You would have jumped all over it as you are now, since picking on a minor slip is all you have in support of your arguments. Next you will go after typos.

Democracy is about respect for human rights

That’s just your version of it. There are plenty of “democratic” states that fail to deliver (like America), but then I guess you’ll just say that they aren’t “real” democracies, as if it legitimizes your nation’s murderous intrusions overseas supposedly in the name of “freedom”.

If the electorate is only rural women it’s not democracy, btw, that’s just a revenge fantasy on your part.

June 11, 2008 @ 2:43 am | Comment

Those who think democracy ain’t worth jack simply because democratic countries have problems, do not have a valid argument.

In nations that are already developed and aren’t at risk of collapse, democracy can work because the loss in growth is offset by a (theoretical) guarantee that the state won’t stomp on its own citizens.

However, it’s too susceptible to emotional tides in public opinion and just general stupidity and ignorance. Human rights, rule of law, transparency, etc are generally good things but democracy doesn’t tie directly into any of these.

June 11, 2008 @ 2:51 am | Comment

@ferin

You would have jumped all over it as you are now

I frequently jump over your slip-ups – they’re called “errors of logic” and “prejudice”.

but then I guess you’ll just say that they aren’t “real” democracies

America is a real democracy in most respects – for example it has a lot more human rights protection than in China, the Middle East, Russia, etc. And there are democratic states with even better records – in fact you won’t find non-democratic states winning any human-rights awards ahead of democracies. I wonder why that is….

If the electorate is only rural women it’s not democracy, btw, that’s just a revenge fantasy on your part.

Why – are you suggesting that rural women are too stupid to have any say in how China is run? I guess you agree with those old philosophers’ views on the fairer sex – ferin says, “get back into the kitchen, women of China!”

June 11, 2008 @ 3:16 am | Comment

for example it has a lot more human rights protection than in China

On their own soil, of course. When they’re overseas it’s a different matter. There was a long period of time in which the American government abused “human rights” pretty badly even though it was a democracy.

in fact you won’t find non-democratic states winning any human-rights awards ahead of democracies.

Are you saying democracies inherently have a good human rights record? Please explain the hordes of bonded laborers and starving children in India, or Brazil’s astronomical crime rates and corruption. Are these not “real democracies”? What kind of system do you want for China then? America’s?

Why – are you suggesting that rural women are too stupid

I really wonder how the hell you got that from what I typed. Nice job pulling the “all Chinese males are sexist” card, though. Have you realized that rape, murder, robbery and assault against women is about 10-20x as common in Britain than in China or even Japan?

June 11, 2008 @ 4:04 am | Comment

Why are we talking about democracy again? Why does every doggone topic about China have to eventually lead to this?

Democracy to China is like puberty to a 10 year old. I’m sure she/he’s pretty nervous and anxious about it, because a lot of kids on the block look so different nowadays. But it ain’t gonna come until it comes.

Talking about it obviously ain’t gonna help. And it don’t matter how hard other kids try to help him or her, it ain’t gonna come until it comes.

This kid just needs to relax, eat healthy and drink a lot of milk (or wine), and run and play like a 10 year old should. All the other kids can just enjoy their own puberty and chill. Talking too much about other people’s puberty is just like…totally perverted…

June 11, 2008 @ 4:13 am | Comment

Democracy to China is like puberty to a 10 year old

The difference is that democracy isn’t inevitable… among other things.

June 11, 2008 @ 4:22 am | Comment

@Master “I know it all” Ferin

“I don’t think “democracy” is perfect anywhere, and it definitely will not solve most (if any at all) of China’s problems. In fact, it will probably just waste everyone’s time and create even more problems. My point about America is that they wouldn’t be able to make any form of government “work” because they have too many idiots and assholes. It was a genocidal slave colony before, a fascist-supporting plutocracy in the mid-term, and now an international terrorist, thug and deceiver.”

You’ve got to know as you are American.

“No, I don’t. You would have jumped all over it as you are now, since picking on a minor slip is all you have in support of your arguments. Next you will go after typos.”

Yeah, we all know your “typos” very well.

“That’s just your version of it. There are plenty of “democratic” states that fail to deliver (like America), but then I guess you’ll just say that they aren’t “real” democracies, as if it legitimizes your nation’s murderous intrusions overseas supposedly in the name of “freedom”.”

It’s YOUR nation.

“If the electorate is only rural women it’s not democracy, btw, that’s just a revenge fantasy on your part.”

You really have problem with women, don’t you?

June 11, 2008 @ 5:56 am | Comment

“On their own soil, of course. When they’re overseas it’s a different matter. There was a long period of time in which the American government abused “human rights” pretty badly even though it was a democracy.”

So what are you going to do about it, you, as an American citizen?

“Are you saying democracies inherently have a good human rights record? Please explain the hordes of bonded laborers and starving children in India, or Brazil’s astronomical crime rates and corruption. Are these not ‘real democracies’? What kind of system do you want for China then? America’s?”

No, not at all. Who said that the American system is the standard? Or the Indian or the Brazil system? We only judge China by it’s own standards. But you don’t understand that, because you are a spoiled US teenager who knows sh*t.

“I really wonder how the hell you got that from what I typed. Nice job pulling the “all Chinese males are sexist” card, though. Have you realized that rape, murder, robbery and assault against women is about 10-20x as common in Britain than in China or even Japan?”

I guess you know all that from your 1993 FBI statistics.

June 11, 2008 @ 6:10 am | Comment

It’s YOUR nation.

Can you read? I’m not British.

You really have problem with women, don’t you?

I have no problem with women, or men. I have a problem with whores and whoremongers.

So what are you going to do about it, you, as an American citizen?

I’m part of a minority group so I have no power whatsoever.

We only judge China by it’s own standards

Then it’s perfect. You would know this if you weren’t a parasite whose experience with China is limited to scumming around in Shanghai for loose women and easy money.

I guess you know all that from your 1993 FBI statistics.

Actually 2004-2008 statistics compiled by interpol and their constituent national police agencies.

June 11, 2008 @ 10:53 am | Comment

“Can you read? I’m not British.”

I can’t read. I’m just an ignorant European troll. And I was referring to the “murderous intrusions” of your home country into Iraq.

“I have no problem with women, or men. I have a problem with whores and whoremongers.”

What problem? Not enough money? You know, if you stop being so abusive, you might sooner or later find a girlfriend.

“I’m part of a minority group so I have no power whatsoever.”

Obama is part of a minority group and he has a realistic chance to become the next president.

“Then it’s perfect. You would know this if you weren’t a parasite whose experience with China is limited to scumming around in Shanghai for loose women and easy money.”

Not at all. If you judge China or its government by their own standards, they are both far from perfect. And you would know this, if you weren’t an ignorant American youngster whose experience with the outside world is abusing other people on the Internet.

“Then it’s perfect. You would know this if you weren’t a parasite whose experience with China is limited to scumming around in Shanghai for loose women and easy money.”

If the Brits are as bad as you say, why do you believe their statistics?

June 11, 2008 @ 5:19 pm | Comment

Sorry my last comment was replying to this statement:

“Actually 2004-2008 statistics compiled by interpol and their constituent national police agencies.”

June 11, 2008 @ 5:30 pm | Comment

I was referring to the “murderous intrusions

Are you not aware that Britain took part in the invasion?

Not enough money?

Who doesn’t have enough money for a night or two your “wife”.

Obama is part of a minority group and he has a realistic chance to become the next president.

Okay, let me just scrape up half a billion dollars for a presidential campaign.

If the Brits are as bad as you say, why do you believe their statistics?

Wow. Stupid.

June 12, 2008 @ 1:14 am | Comment

“Are you not aware that Britain took part in the invasion?”

So did your country. As to the rest of your comment, I can see why Richard thinks of you as a very smart person who can contribute a lot to his blog-site.

June 12, 2008 @ 1:53 am | Comment

ferin, please don’t push your luck.

Richard, back from a long trip

June 12, 2008 @ 3:55 am | Comment

If only I was as erudite and eloquent as this little troll, then I could contribute “smart” comments to this blog-site, too!

June 13, 2008 @ 12:35 am | Comment

Gone.

June 13, 2008 @ 9:22 am | Comment

Did the principal design the school? Did the principal manage the construction of the school? Perhaps it was appropriate to prevent parents from suing the principal. How is he liable for what happened? If the lawsuit was prevented, how does it indicate the government will not make results of the investigations known to the public?

June 14, 2008 @ 1:51 am | Comment

how much money have you made flipping properties from the comfort of your stolen american land, mor zedong?

June 14, 2008 @ 3:10 am | Comment

From Slashdot
—————–
You’re totally right. They aren’t communist. What they are is fascist.

“Anti-individualistic, the fascist conception of life stresses the importance of the State and accepts the individual only insofar as his interests coincide with those of the State, which stands for the conscience and the universal will of man as a historic entity…. The fascist conception of the State is all-embracing; outside of it no human or spiritual values can exist, much less have value…. Fascism is therefore opposed to that form of democracy which equates a nation to the majority, lowering it to the level of the largest number….”

Best description of China I ever read. That’s straight from Mussolini’s “The Doctrine of Fascism.”

On a related note anyone read the article on how Chinese police jailed parents who tried to go back to the faulty death-traps – I mean schools – their government had built. The police were also instructed to keep foreign press away from the schools and to not let anyone take photos. A pretty good example of how the most important thing is the state above all – including it seems the needless deaths of children.
————————

June 19, 2008 @ 1:35 am | Comment

[…] all the tolerated genocide, rioting minorities, silenced grievances, information censorship, vetoed sanctions, environmental pollution, civilian surveillance, murdered […]

August 12, 2008 @ 9:07 pm | Pingback

[…] control the Chinese people, whether it means increased patriotic education for splittist TIbetans, suppressing grieving parents who lost their children in the Sichuan earthquake, or employing grassroots public relations specialists to shape public opinion with propagandic […]

March 29, 2009 @ 11:48 pm | Pingback