“But have you ever asked why in the US life goes on as always, even though the Falun Gong are free to do as they choose? In fact, that seems to be the case in every other country except China.”

Richard, what do you want to achieve by tirelessly bringing up this topic and criticising our (Chinese) view towards wheelers?

Do you want to convince us how free your country is, or what true freedom can do to a country?

First of all, we know your country is free and WEALTHY, and we are working hard towards it, probably first a bit of wealth then a bit more freedom.

Second, as I said many times, it’s fruitless for you and very offending for many Chinese to use wheelers as an example on this issue.

It’s as fruitless and offending as telling Americans, you were 911ed because you country didn’t behave itself overseas, so sort out your own problems before invading others.

While I think at least half Americans would not give a sh1t to that, Not many Chinese will listen to your teaching based on wheelers no matter what you say, either.

Of course, if citing wheelers to show us Chinese the true color of free speech and democracy is not what you meant, forgive my stupidity.

April 25, 2006 @ 4:16 pm | Comment

I’m just telling how I feel. However, I believe this is the first time, maybe ever, that I posted about how the FLG exist peacefully and without causing harm in other countries. I don’t think I ever wrote about that before.If I ever did, it is certainly not something I harp on.

I put up lots of posts that tirelessly hammer at Bush’s injustices and lies. And CHina’s. About the war in Iraq. What do I want to achieve by doing it? I’m not sure. But if it bothers me, I write about it. Actually only two Chinese people protested about my last post on the topic, you and Bingfeng, Another Chinese reader said I was right. So I don’t know whether it’s quite as black and white as you seem to believe, that all Chinese hate the Wheelers and think the government repression is good. The whole issue really bothers me, like Bush’s sanctioning torture. I won’t stop writing about that torture because many right-wing Americans are offended by such protests and see it as anti-American.

April 25, 2006 @ 6:07 pm | Comment

You are right, I’m not in a position to represnt even 0.000001% Chinese.

So the above is just my opinion.

“Actually only two Chinese people protested about my last post on the topic, you and Bingfeng, Another Chinese reader said I was right. So I don’t know whether it’s quite as black and white as you seem to believe, that all Chinese hate the Wheelers and think the government repression is good.”

You might find it helpful if you could have a quetionaire for all the Chinese you can reach on this issue.

April 25, 2006 @ 6:37 pm | Comment

You might find it helpful if you could have a quetionaire for all the Chinese you can reach on this issue.

It might. But you know something? I don’t base my posts on focus groups or surveys. If you want to read a blog that only writes what his readers want to see, youre in the wrong place.

April 25, 2006 @ 6:50 pm | Comment

What’s with all these recent al Qaeda allusions we have seen when discussing this topic? Is there anyone else here who feels like it doesn’t make any sense at all?
al Qaeda is not a group that only “has some problems” in the United States. They haven’t exactly been welcomed anywhere else in the world for a number of reasons, such as planning (and often executing) attacks that killed countless civilians in… Spain, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, England, Singapore (planned), Japan (planned), Jordan (planned), etc.
It’s not like America is “crackin’ down” on al Qaeda as the rest of the world looks on in confusion.
Which is what seems to be happening in the case of this other group, which is being compared far too often to al Qaeda by people who seem to have their heads a little ways up their… well, I won’t say that. When members of these group start dying en masse from “not taking medicine” or “self-immolation” in a nation with a free press, I could start to believe it. But it just has not happened. I mean, think about it, why haven’t they created chaos in Hong Kong, right across the border? Please, stop and think before trying to advance your propaganda with unfounded comparisions.

April 25, 2006 @ 7:53 pm | Comment

“This demonstrates once again that Falun Gong is not only a cult but also an anti-China political organization with base political intentions,” Qin told a regular news briefing.

—————

what Qin said is a fact

April 25, 2006 @ 10:16 pm | Comment

Well, if a CCP official said it, I guess it must be true.

April 25, 2006 @ 10:43 pm | Comment

“Well, if a CCP official said it, I guess it must be true.”

———-

unfortunately some people share a similar logic:

“Well, if a CCP official said it, I guess it must be a sh*t.”

April 26, 2006 @ 12:11 am | Comment

I’m afraid that’s based on their track record.

“There is absolutely no SARS in Beijing. We have successfully eliminated SARS in Guandong and Beijing.”

And Chinese statistics – have you ever read about their accuracy? Tell the truth and people respect your word. Lie like hell all the time, and people know you as a bullshitter. Pretty simple.

Now, I don’t believe a single word China says until I get verification. Same with my current government in America. They have lied too many times, and i don’t believe a word they say anymore. You reap what you sow. But I am objective about this: my prejudice isn’t reserved for communists or republicans – I apply it to everyone who proves repeatedly they cannot be trusted. Therefore, I don’t believe a word the FLG or Epoch Times says, either. So you see, this is not born out of prejudice. I went to China in 2002 believing in what the party was saying. They had to make a huge and conscious effort to disillusion me by lying in my face so many times I could never trust them again. I don’t want to distrust them. But I have no choice.

April 26, 2006 @ 12:21 am | Comment

now everybody understands why some people believes:

“… if a CCP official said it, I guess it must be a sh*t.”

and this pretty well summerized the essence of this post.

April 26, 2006 @ 1:55 am | Comment

such mentality is not the loss of ccp or chinese people but only blind those who hold such opinions as “if a CCP official said it, I guess …” and punish them by leading them to make stupid judgements, such as funding flg …

April 26, 2006 @ 2:01 am | Comment

interesting!happend to see all above. i guess it wouldnt be such a big deal yelling at some government officials in public in most countries. well, c-span’ live interview of a flg member quite answered my question that the rage of “heckler” isnt out of nowhere.

April 26, 2006 @ 2:19 am | Comment

OK, I’ve had enough of this. Why is it that every time Richard raises an issue remotely related to FLG or even mentioning the name, we will get all these emotional rages. And everytime we will go through the same arguments over and over again like a broken record. Richard is asking a very legitimate question: why is it that the Chinese Government does not blame the US Government for the mishap at the White House reception. Instead, they just go on and on about the evil cult? Why can’t we have an open discussion about this without being called names. The more Bingfeng and others are carrying on like mad dogs, the more I doubt whether their feeling about the FLG is that typical among people in China. If the Chinese government has very legitimate reasons for suppressing the FLG and if the suppression is widely supported within China (as some Chinese commentator here is suggesting), then what’s the problem about an open discussion? Am I starting to smell a rat here?

April 26, 2006 @ 3:02 am | Comment

Forget it Fat Cat: there’s no such thing as a rational conversation on Japan or the FLG. Bingfeng, whom I love, turns into another person when these issues arise. I don’t expect him to change his mind, now or ever, but hopefully there are some other readers out there willing to at least consider that maybe suppression and extermination of the FLG isn’t the only answer.

April 26, 2006 @ 3:08 am | Comment

It’s especially paradoxical since the CCP and the FLG are kindred spirits. The Communist Party is a superstitious cult.

April 26, 2006 @ 3:49 am | Comment

Richard, you are certainly entitled every bit to detest fanatic wheelers – most educated people do – but didn’t they do some job Americans (and Chinese) won’t do, to borrow the immigration debate arguement? They publically humiliated the notorials Lhasa Butcher, Hu Jintao, a cold blood dictator runs a reign of terror over 1.3 billion people back home, but also a coward who didn’t even know what to do at White House lawn? Even better, they embarassed this Katrina administration full of Brownnies – they didn’t learn a thing from mistakes. It’s a dirty job to confront the one, let alone the two – but someone got to do it. You weren’t be able to do it, so wheelers did it. China’s dirty little secret got exposed on CNN, between its nerver-ending Lacross rape coverage. Gosh, not bad at all!

April 26, 2006 @ 5:58 am | Comment

“”Why can’t we have an open discussion about this without being called names. The more Bingfeng and others are carrying on like mad dogs … “”

—————

well well well

April 26, 2006 @ 6:20 am | Comment

OK Bingfeng, I meant to call it a day but I respect you as an intelligent person who is brave enough to speak your mind, so I’ll open the discussion. I’ll try my best to do this in a civilised manner. I think that the Chinese government’s strategy towards flg is wrong. The whole incident was very badly handled in the first place and has now turned not just into a PR nightmare, but also an unnecessary burden to China’s effort to improve her image as a credible player on the stage of world politics. This is not just my personal view, but one that is shared my many Australians who are familiar with China. I’ll quote a statement from The Australian to support my view:
[quote]Beijing regards Falun Gong as a threat precisely because it is beyond its control and China has a history of religious movements overthrowing dynasties.
But it is a sign of paranoia, or perhaps a sense of vulnerability, that the Chinese Government has overreacted to such an extent in the years since 10,000 Falun Gong supporters held a silent protest outside the leaders’ compound in Beijing in 1999.
Last year, John Fitzgerald, a professor in Asia-Pacific studies at the Australian National University, told a federal parliamentary committee that many in leadership positions in China felt the Government’s banning of Falun Gong and its subsequent persecution was a terrible mistake.
“But once made by senior leadership, there is no going back,” he said. “They find themselves on the horns of a dilemma, having created, in a sense, a monster which is their own state surveillance apparatus, which the state itself is going to find difficult to control … People are now watching one another’s backs in relation to freedom of religion, in particular, in ways we have not seen since the Cultural Revolution.” [/quote]
Bingfeng, this explains why I am calling for all sides to remain calm. From what I can see, adding fuel to fire is not going to help improve the situation to the benefit of the Chinese government and the Chinese people, both in China and abroad. Starting a rational dialogue that will engage people into an open discussion is a better way to go. In this way, we can start looking at what really is causing the problem in the first place and may be then we can perhaps put forward some workable solutions for the problem.
Now it’s your turn.

April 26, 2006 @ 8:58 am | Comment

how can we start a “rational conversation” when somebody refuses to admit the basic facts of flg?

in my view, there are two basic facts about flg:

first, they are a cult, committed a lot of crimes towards chinese people and now is involved into anti-china political activities in the US (and other places as well).

second, they are cracked down by the chinese government, and in a way that many said roughly and unlawfully.

the problem between me and a lot of westerners like richard and you is this: while i admit both facts, you guys refused to admit and to pay the least attention to the 1st fact because of your political bias.

April 26, 2006 @ 7:29 pm | Comment

Fat Cat: how can you engage in “rational conversation” with someone who has the illusion that Taiwan is ruled by communist Chinese?

April 27, 2006 @ 12:59 am | Comment

“”Fat Cat: how can you engage in “rational conversation” with someone who has the illusion that Taiwan is ruled by communist Chinese?

Posted by: bellevue at April 27, 2006 12:59 AM””

—————

troll comes back!

funny bellevue has such an illusion that i think taiwan is ruled by communist chinese. but bellevue always has a lot of illusions:

http://tinyurl.com/bz922

April 27, 2006 @ 1:35 am | Comment

Bingfeng, I’ll ignore the troll. This is my reply: It is not true that we in the western world are intentionally ignoring or are ignorant of the damages that flg has done to some followers and their family. In Australia, we are taking this very seriously. The situation has been monitored very closely and I have to say that many of us don’t like what we see. This ABC Radio National report aired in 2001 is a very good representation of our view: http://www.abc.net.au/rn/talks/bbing/stories/s283930.htm

However, many of us also believe that the Chinese Government’s suppression of flg is not only not helping but is in fact helping flg to grow. I’m quoting here a passage from the above ABC report. It is a part of an interview with an Australian psychologist Raphael Aaron, who has experience of working with families that have expressed concern about their family members’ association with flg, “We know that one of the traditional signs of most cults or sects is the fact that they divide the world into good and bad. China has in fact created this huge rallying point with I would imagine, millions of disaffected people. So he’s (meaning Li Hongzhi) got a captive audience out there, and he’s appealing to them. And the fact that he’s able to divide the world the way that he has, aided and abetted by the Chinese authority, can only continue to serve his cause.” By the way, Raphael is very critical of Li Hongzhi’s writing and his theology. The competing propaganda and conflicting messages that comes out of both China and flg make it very difficult for us outsiders to defend the case for China suppressing the movement. What I’m saying is that calling flg names are not working in favour of the Chinese government. Please seriously consider changing tactics.

April 27, 2006 @ 1:48 am | Comment

the reactions of chinese government to many social developments in china are far from perfect.

as we can image, the way they react is limited by many factors such as their ability, time restraints, the scale of the issues, fund, etc. and what’s more important, there are a lot of dilemmas and trade-offs.

like what you said, the way how flg was treated somehow promoted their victim image in front of the world and this in the long run brings a lot of troubles to chinese government.

however, i have to admit that there was no other choice but to act immediately at the time when flg was on its brilliant time in china and by acting forcefully and immediately the government saved tens of thousands people and their families.

im in business and often work in similar environments in which you have to make choice, meaning you put most important things ahead of other things with your limited resources, and sometimes you have to make tough decisions to give up something that are also important to you.

chinese government is not perfect and made a lot of mistakes, some of which are not forgivable, but besides these, you have to count the all the above factors into your analysis

April 27, 2006 @ 2:27 am | Comment

Bingfeng, I don’t care much about what have been done in the past. What I’m asking is, is it still necessary to make cracking down flg a priority in China’s internal and external policy? Further more, is it really necessary to block information about flg from the general public in China? This kind of information censorship on flg has been used as an excuse by flg members as evidence of continuous persecution. This is indeed a very powerful weapon for them, a very credible one too. A friend of mine who’s been monitoring various new age religious movements including flg warned that Li Hongzhi has substantially revised his theology in the past five year and is able to exert more influence on his followers by claiming that the suppression is preordained and part of a great plan. While the counter-effort by Chinese diplomatic personnel has alienated the sympathy China might normally expect from the general public in western countries. I have to say that Beijing’s efforts to portray Falun Gong as dangerous and predatory cult have fallen flat. To most outsiders, the prevailing image of Falun Gong is of mostly middle-aged or older practitioners doing harmless exercises in parks, following the wacky writings of yet another charismatic guru.

April 27, 2006 @ 3:21 am | Comment

It was a tough decision, but we had to exterminate [fill in the blanks – Armenians, Jews, Gypsies, American Indians, White Russians, etc.] . We had to make a practical decision for the good of our people. We’re sorry there was no other choice, but by doing it, we saved ourselves from a far greater danger in the future.

Self-righteous suppression and extermination always play with the same script. Ah, the sweet sensation of morality and goodness we human beings feel, even as we commit the most gruesome and inhuman acts imaginable.

April 27, 2006 @ 6:32 am | Comment

BF: the problem between me and a lot of westerners like richard and you is this: while i admit both facts, you guys refused to admit and to pay the least attention to the 1st fact [that the FLG is a cult] because of your political bias.

Totally false. I admit the FLG is indeed a cult, and one I don’t like. No cult, however distasteful, should be exterminated. If this cult commits crimes, the perpetrators should be tried for them. Why do we keep going around in circles like this, BF? I agree with you on nearly all points about the badness of the flg. But bad things don’t always merit brutality and torture, do they? But once again, we know where the opther stands. What’s the point of going on>?

Bellevue, nice to see you back. Where’ve you been?

April 27, 2006 @ 6:48 am | Comment

“If this cult commits crimes, the perpetrators should be tried for them. ”

————

it’s not a “if”, it was something happening back to late 1990s and people were dying because of flg!

as an armchair politician, you could argue that a criminal group as large as with “70 million followers” should be tried fairly and openly, but in reality it’s not that easy, to say the least. tell me how can you bring those criminals into trial when even victims refused to admit they suffered from them? how can you do that with tens of thousands of cases involved hundreds of thousands of criminals and victims? how can you do that before people can be protected from more sufferings from flg? how can you do that with a low efficient legal system?

i never propose “brutality and torture” against a criminal group, and from my experience i seriously doubt that was what happened to flg.

April 27, 2006 @ 8:10 am | Comment

“It was a tough decision, but we had to exterminate [fill in the blanks – Armenians, Jews, Gypsies, American Indians, White Russians, etc.] . We had to make a practical decision for the good of our people. We’re sorry there was no other choice, but by doing it, we saved ourselves from a far greater danger in the future.”

—————

it’s illusion, richard!

i don’t know what happened to you in your life or what fostered your belief, but we should live in reality and not let our emotions and belief fool our perception of the world.

perhaps you just read too much on stuff like gulag islands or cultural revolutions.

if you would rather rely on flg testimony to drow the conclusion that the crack down was a “suppression and extermination” full of ” brutality and torture”, well, it’s up to you.

April 27, 2006 @ 8:22 am | Comment

the issues raised by fat cat is interesting.

i am not sure how concerned chinese government was with the outside views of their handling of flg.

maybe they don’t care at all.

this is really unfortunate that more pressing issues make it impossible for teh government to handle it in a better way or even save the necessary resources to pay attention to it.

April 27, 2006 @ 8:30 am | Comment

one interesting observation on chinese’s anti-japan sentiment and american’s anti-china sentiment: both are derived from their past memories of totalitarian regimes, chinese from their memories of japanese militarism and americans from their memories of soviet union.

memories are stubborn but usually lag behind reality of our times

April 27, 2006 @ 8:44 am | Comment

Whatever. I have said multiple times, I don’t believe anything the FLG says and I never quote Epoch Times. I’m not saying they have been exterminated. I am saying that YOU have an exterminationist mentality about them, and repeat those same soothing mantras that other exterminationists have used throughout history. “It was only for the good of society. We had little choice, and though it caused pain, I am glad we did it.”

April 27, 2006 @ 6:20 pm | Comment

i have family members in northern china (in several cities) and in shanghai, none of them heard anything like “brutality and torture” towards flg members. in the place i live, flg members were asked to have a talk with their directors and were persuaded to give up their pursuits, although many of them were not willing to believe in what they heard from the government propagandas about flg, they at least stopped preaching and handed out the flg little bibles, some hardcore flgists were monitored but their lives and work not affected at all, like the one who is a famous taichi master and a close friend of my family. this was what i saw.

where is “extermination”?

the only “extermination” that existed in 1999 is the flg movement!

April 27, 2006 @ 7:01 pm | Comment

talking about “exterminationist mentality”, flg has a lot of that, this is what worries me the most.

i don’t want another 1960s ccp or another boxer movement or nazi party or gulag islands or whatever mosters flg might create

flg is a perfect candidate for all the above

by defending the existence of flg, you are attacking what you believe, richard

April 27, 2006 @ 7:09 pm | Comment

Repeat, there is no extermination. Repeat, you have an exterminationist atrtitude. Repeat: you have an exterminationist attitude. BF, are you this dense that you don’t see my point? I never said the FLG was exterminated. I said you have an exterminationist attituide toward them. Do I need to say it again?

April 27, 2006 @ 7:09 pm | Comment

repeat, stop a criminal group is not “extermination”, repeat, talk with flg members to stop their crimes is not extermination”, repeat, similarly, stop racist action is not “extermination”, repeat, stop terrorist actions is not “extermination”

when stopping a criminal group as large as flg, some members are treated unfairly, this is unfortunate and is not justified in any circumstance and must be amended as soon as found, however, the government still need to stop the flg criminal group immediately and forcefully because if they don’t do it in that way, a lot more people will (and actually are) become the victims of flg.

this has nothing to do with “exterminationist attitude” and as a lot of people who experienced the affair can verify, it saved a lot more people than hurted any of them

April 27, 2006 @ 7:28 pm | Comment

by sending US servicemen and servicewomen to iraq, dictartors were removed and, unfortunately some US servicemen and women were killed during the war, even though, US still need to send troops to remove the dictators and spread democracy in iraq. this is not saying that US government want to murder those US servicemen and women.

it’s kind of funny why a grownup can not see this difference

April 27, 2006 @ 7:32 pm | Comment

Okay, let’s end it there. You’re right, all 70 million are criminals. And as you know, I love the Iraq war and always tell my readers how great it is and how much I respect our president for it.

April 27, 2006 @ 7:34 pm | Comment

Richard: hi there. Been busy sending over *pirated* copy of PBS Frontline ‘The Tank Man’ to folks back in China. I confess WGBH’s copyright is somewhat compromised, but not their ideas and idealism. What do you think?

April 28, 2006 @ 5:03 am | Comment

I don’t endorse piracy, but in this casew there might be no other way to spread the word. it sounds like a noble cause to me. We’ve missed you here!

April 28, 2006 @ 6:56 am | Comment

Richard: I’d encourage you and anywone else to be a member of your local public broadcasting station (for me it’s KQED), to donate more (to cover up my violation:) and to get involved. For me the upside is now I know how to dub a Chinese subtitle to Divx file.

Besides, do you know the current number of people Yahoo helped Chinese authority jail, convict and sentence to prison term for their cyber speech? It’s 4 (four) today. I fear more will be revealed in the future. You can probably set up a counter there.

April 28, 2006 @ 10:57 pm | Comment

The fear of instability in China stems from the painful memory of Cultural Revolution. This has resulted in a concensus of “Stability over Everything Else”.

The biggest challenge for China is to modernize itself. After all, there are still over 0.8 billion people living in the village. Despite the true date is in 2006, we all remember the history when people was still poor, less educated. There does exist segregation in China, not in terms of race but in terms of economical condition and education. This is probably why FLG is a concern in China but not in other places in the world. After all, FLG did orginate from China.

April 30, 2006 @ 6:01 pm | Comment