Whenever I read claims about horrendous acts performed agunst the Falun Gong my BS filter kicks into gear (note that I never quote Epoch Times on this site), not because I don’t believe China actually performs such acts from time to time, but because the FLG has been known to, shall we say, exaggerate. But this story is making the mainstream news and apparently some reporters believe it.
An estimated 41,500 transplant operations in China were probably performed using organs of imprisoned Falun Gong members killed by Chinese authorities, says a report released yesterday by two prominent Canadian lawyers.
There is no other possible source for the organs used in transplants between 2000 and 2005, says the report by David Matas, a Winnipeg human-rights lawyer, and David Kilgour, a former prosecutor who was also a federal Liberal cabinet secretary for Asian affairs.
“Where do the organs come from for the 41,500 transplants? The allegation of organ harvesting from Falun Gong practitioners provides an answer,” the report says. The authors say they ruled out all other sources, including the relatively small number of other Chinese prisoners executed for crimes.
A new Chinese law governing organ transplants came into effect last week after reports in Western news media that Chinese hospitals were advertising on-line that they had fresh kidneys, corneas and other organs for foreign customers frustrated with long waits.
I don’t know if it’s true or not. Other links you might find interesting on the topic of live organ donations in China here and here.
1
By Ivan
What, you put me in the same category as Richard and Lisa?
Wow! THANKS! Richard and Lisa are two of the most intelligent and most highly principled people I have ever met! And now you say that I am like THEM?
THANK YOU! THANK YOU!
July 8, 2006 @ 5:01 pm | Comment
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By richard
Sorry Ivan, I’m deleting all of Jessica’s depraved comments.
July 8, 2006 @ 9:57 pm | Comment
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By davesgonechina
I read about half of the Kilgour-Matas report (available at http://www.david-kilgour.com) and while I think these guys are far more believable than the (E)xtra (T)errestrials, this is how the report describes their own “methods of proof”:
“Many of the pieces of evidence we considered, in themselves, do not constitute ironclad
proof of the allegation. But their non-existence might well have constituted disproof.
The combination of these factors, particularly when there are so many of them, has the
effect of making the allegations believable, even when any one of them in isolation
might not do so. Where every possible element of disproof we could identify fails to
disprove the allegations, the likelihood of the allegations being true becomes
substantial.”
So they didn’t prove the allegations, but they disproved all the other possibilities? I’m skeptical of this, and I think it’s misleading people who know little or nothing about China. For starters, Chinese statistics are Chinese statistics. Hospitals might inflate their numbers to appear more experienced and qualified. Or how about the floating population? If the hospitals or black market organ dealers are paying mingong, well mingong don’t exist on paper – not in the city they migrate to, their papers say their still back on the farm.
Other reasons in the report for narrowing it down to FG organs: persecution, massive arrests and repression. FG is not the only group of Chinese people who get this treatment, so framing this as an FG only thing is sort of like… complaining about the destruction of Tibetan culture but not Han culture. And while it provides a motive, it doesn’t place the CCP anywhere near the scene of the crime, or address the bigger issue that there is no proof this particular crime of organ transplanting has taken place.
They also mention that FG prisoners are blood tested, and there is no reason to blood test prisoners. It’s unclear if by blood test they mean blood typing as opposed to testing for communicable diseases, which makes sense for a prison. If it is only for determining blood type, then how do we know? Kilgour and Matas give no footnotes, in a footnote heavy report, and say that they have heard so many testimonials about this, that it must be beyond a shadow of a doubt. Yeah. Right. And because people have repeated so many times that Saddam helped Al Qaeda, that must be true too, right?
Finally, the phone record conversations. Look who provided those. Kilgour and Matas give an air of respectability to reports that remain unconfirmed and suspicious. They provide no new information or proof.
July 9, 2006 @ 3:57 am | Comment
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By Ivan
Richard,
Awwwww… Now if only Jessica would delete herself from the planet and make it a better place.
July 9, 2006 @ 5:22 am | Comment
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By davesgonechina
You know, I’m reading the rest of the Kilgour Matas report and I came across this section:
“In the course of our work, we have come across a number of people sceptical of the allegations. This scepticism has a number of different causes. Some of the scepticism reminds of the statement of U.S. Supreme Court Justice Felix Frankfurter 1943 to a Polish diplomat in reaction to being told by Jan Karski about the Holocaust. Frankfurter
said:
“I did not say that this young man was lying. I said that I was unable to believe what he told me. There is a difference.”
The allegations here are so shocking that they are almost impossible to believe. The allegations, if true, would represent a grotesque form of evil which, despite all the depravations humanity has seen, would be new to this planet. The very horror makes us reel back in disbelief. But that disbelief does not mean that the allegations are
untrue.”
Godwin’s Law in action, I think. True, some skepticism will be driven by shock. But they don’t bother to discuss the “number of different causes” of skepticism, such as the integrity of their sources (the phone calls, other unproven allegations made by the same groups, etc.), the inadequacy of the “balance of probability” approach, especially when the charges are of systematic persecution, and whether a careful distinction is being made between a systematic program against FG practitioners and a less organized environment of corruption and unethical practices.
Another point: they say that China’s recent expansion of organ transplant facilities “likely would have been accompanied by feasibility studies indicating organ sources”. Really? Is that a fair assumption to make? Alot of expansion in China seems to be made without the slightest consideration of feasibility. Also, in a country burdened with a massive impoverished population, wouldn’t it be a no- brainer to assume there are organ sources? China’s medical system has been disorganized on blood supply, HIV, SARS, bird flu, not to mention hepatitis and basic preventative public health like proper refrigeration of perishable foods and seatbelts. To assume it likely that there would feasibility studies and proper planning of the organ transplant system seems to contradict all the other ways the Chinese medical system has failed to do exactly that regarding other issues.
July 9, 2006 @ 7:48 am | Comment
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By Pursuit
Ivan needs to widen his circle of acquaintances.
July 9, 2006 @ 8:44 am | Comment
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By richard
Dave, thanks for your intelligent analysis.
July 9, 2006 @ 9:06 am | Comment
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By Bobb999
The Canadian report’s authors sent investigators to China to contact various hospitals by phone to extract information about transplant policies. In some cases the investigators in fact got hospital officials to admit to using organs harvested from Falun Gong members. That’s the kind of evidence that is frightening, and appears credible.
July 9, 2006 @ 11:52 am | Comment
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By davesgonechina
That’s where you’re wrong Bobb999, the Canadian authors didn’t send the investigators. The investigators were members of FG organizations in Canada who shared their information with the authors. The authors did not share, though they claim to have examined, information on the investigators phone call routing and timing. In some of the phone calls, while the investigators mention FG, the respondents do not. In some cases, their answers are “no problem”, as in “mei wenti”… this is not an affirmation that prisoners are from FG, only an affirmation they have organs from prisoners. So while unethical practices may be going on, it does not prove that there is a systematic attack on FG members. Moreover, since the investigators belong to FG organizations, I am skeptical. The allegations originate from the same groups – confirmation of their allegations would require proof from outside of their groups, a third party. The authors provide no such independent source, and furthermore don’t address questions as to the credibility of these sources (my main criticism here being FG affliates claiming that 6 million plus members of the Communist Party have resigned – if the FG is so persecuted in China, how could they possibly have such statistics? Also, one of the mechanisms they have for collecting these statistics is an online petition that anyone can join; I myself have signed it as John Wayne and Paris Hilton. Given the inadequacy of this mechanism, how can they tell me these statistics with a straight face? The same people made these “investigations” and therefore fail to establish their credibility).
July 9, 2006 @ 5:23 pm | Comment
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By Myrna Mack
http://www.zhuichaguoji.org/en/index2.php?option=content&task=view&id=168&pop=1&page=0
Dave: The Falun Gong persecution has been going on since 20 July 1999 and there are thousands of people who have a horror experience to tell about their plight in the CCP’s cells. Today I came across some sites that advertise organs for sale, there was one that could actually give the waiting time. I heard a Falun Gong practitioner tell how she was medically examine and had blood taken whilst in jail in China what was interesting in her talk was the fact that only the Falun Gong practitioners had gone through the medical test. We can be cynical about these revelations but as far as I know there is never smoke without fire. Lately I am wondering why is there so much support and protection of a totalitarian system like the CCP? Have people forgotten what they are capable off? Why is a group of people persecuted for doing exercises, why are human rights trampled on in our day and age?
I found this site may be you would like to take a look I would be interested to read your comments.
http://www.zhuichaguoji.org/en/index2.php?option=content&task=view&id=168&pop=1&page=0
September 17, 2006 @ 7:37 am | Comment
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By Myrna Mack
http://www.zhuichaguoji.org/en/index2.php?option=content&task=view&id=168&pop=1&page=0
Dave: The Falun Gong persecution has been going on since 20 July 1999 and there are thousands of people who have a horror experience to tell about their plight in the CCP’s cells. Today I came across some sites that advertise organs for sale, there was one that could actually give the waiting time. I heard a Falun Gong practitioner tell how she was medically examine and had blood taken whilst in jail in China what was interesting in her talk was the fact that only the Falun Gong practitioners had gone through the medical test. We can be cynical about these revelations but as far as I know there is never smoke without fire. Lately I am wondering why is there so much support and protection of a totalitarian system like the CCP? Have people forgotten what they are capable off? Why is a group of people persecuted for doing exercises, why are human rights trampled on in our day and age?
I found this site may be you would like to take a look I would be interested to read your comments.
http://www.zhuichaguoji.org/en/index2.php?option=content&task=view&id=168&pop=1&page=0
September 17, 2006 @ 7:37 am | Comment