Richard, you wrote:

“I love ESWN (though not unconditionally). I read him first thing every day. So I am totally bewildered why he would refer his readers to such blatant pornography.”

But I’m not the least bit bewildered by what ESWN did, or why he did it.

December 1, 2006 @ 2:59 pm | Comment

I love Peking Duck (though not unconditionally). I read him every day. So I am totally bewildered why he would refer his readers to such blatant pornography.

December 1, 2006 @ 3:31 pm | Comment

Richard, you wanna borrow my rat poison for this one? The vermin are already coming out of the woodwork and nipping at your heels.

December 1, 2006 @ 3:55 pm | Comment

James, you’ve totally missed the point.

As for why ESWN links to that site, there’s only one word for it “desparation”.

December 1, 2006 @ 4:03 pm | Comment

I’m with Ivan. The commentators above have really outdone themselves in terms of ignorance. The horrors depicted on that web site are born of that kind of ignorance.

I suggest we ignore the chattering of fools and tools and move on to grown-up discussion.

December 1, 2006 @ 4:06 pm | Comment

Oops. Didn’t mean you Fat Cat. You’re a quicker poster than I am!

December 1, 2006 @ 4:07 pm | Comment

@Fat Cat: “Desperation”? Huh?

And Richard, I thought The media shouldn’t “protect” us from the photos and videos, as they are doing. We need to all see for ourselves what the murderers are capable of, and evidence of brutality should be shown to the public.

I don’t get it.

December 1, 2006 @ 5:11 pm | Comment

I am not bewildered either, by the original post on eswn or the idiotic responses to richard’s post.

December 1, 2006 @ 5:16 pm | Comment

Dave, the media shouldn’t protect us from such pictures. I am in favor of this information being avilable to all. But did you see the way that site presents it? It’s base and vulgar, sellinbg the Rape oif Nanking as a snuff flick. Did you read the link I pasted in the post – the link they send you to to get you to order their movie? I am all for opennes – I believe in Holocaust memorials and read the Rape of Nanking and believe the story must be told and the photos shown. But to tell it like this, getting readers titillated at the thought of blood and more blood – Dave, that’s not journalism or history as I know it. It’s cheap and it’s tasteless and it appeals to people’s ugliest desires in order to get them to shell out cash. Just like all porn sites do.

December 1, 2006 @ 5:41 pm | Comment

James:

What the -deleted- is the matter with you, Richard? I know you are anti-commie but those crimes were real. Why don’t you just calm down, walk out, and go tell a modern Orthodox Jew in Brooklyn, New York that the Shoah did not happen? Eh?

You see, this is not about whether the crimes were real or not. it is how this website is marketing its goods. As a Jew, as someone who’s studied the Holocaust intensely, of couse I want the truth told about Hitler. Do I want it told like this:

Viewers should beware: Hitler’s Diaries is also incredibly violent and horribly graphic. Unlike other films which attempt to sanitize Nazi atrocities and the horrors of war, Hitler’s Diaries is reality to the extreme: Soldiers are killed in battle. Civilians are bombed and machine gunned as they run through burning cities and down dusty roads. Men, women, and children are stripped naked and shot. Women and men are dragged to the scaffolds and hung by the neck. Jews are rounded up, herded into ditches and executed by Nazi firing squads. Murder and death is everywhere, for that is the reality of the horrors of war and the Nazi regime of Adolf Hitler. And, its all real!

If you feel this is an acceptable and wholesome way to teach about the horrors of the Holocaust more power to you. If you think the website is a valuable tool for information and not an incredibly shabby example of catering to sadists and voyeurs then more power to you. You see, it’s not about the crimes. It’s about presentation. That site is a porn site. It’s hawking footage of mutilated Chinese for cash. There is nothing there about learning, and morality. There’s just gore and more gore, blood and more blood.

Imagine a site showing heaps of bodies of dead Jews, showing them in the process of their mutilation, showing them naked and tortured. We’re okay so far – those things should be seen so we can learn from them and not hide from reality – and they should be seen in a manner that is not prurient and vulgar. When you add to those photos sensationalist words and offers to “buy now and we’ll show you even MORE torture and death!” – then we’ve descended into something else, something different and ugly. That isn’t aout information, it’s about masturbation.

Show the pictures. Show the carnge. Show them as history, as has been done so well wth the Holocaust and more recently the Rape of Nanjing. But don’t exploit it for money, and throw it in front of people in a manner that is grossly disrespectful to those who suffered the horrors of the Japanese occupation.

December 1, 2006 @ 5:55 pm | Comment

zhwj: I love Peking Duck (though not unconditionally). I read him every day. So I am totally bewildered why he would refer his readers to such blatant pornography.

I tell my readers that I think it’s a snuff site. I don’t send them there as a recommended place to hang out, but with the question – why has someone as smart as eswn listed this as a recommended site of the day? Really; is there something I’m missing here?

In addition, this is a site dealing with China. I have to say, I find it interesting to see how some are exploiting the misery Japan inflicted on China, and I am happy to send readers there in that context, warning them it is a lurid and sadistic site and making it very clear that I, unlike my friend eswn, in no way endorse it.

December 1, 2006 @ 5:59 pm | Comment

Ivan: Richard, you wanna borrow my rat poison for this one? The vermin are already coming out of the woodwork and nipping at your heels.

Don’t worry, I’m used to it whenever it comes to certain topics and certain bloggers.

Buddah, Cat, Si, Ivan, thanks for getting what I was saying. This is in NO WAY a call for censorship of images of man’s inhumanity to man. It is pointing out how a depraved site is captialising on people’s most base desires to get them to buy a product, cheapening the memory of those who suffered and turning their misery into an object of lustful, sadistic curiosity.

December 1, 2006 @ 6:18 pm | Comment

S&M really.

December 1, 2006 @ 6:47 pm | Comment

I’m with Richard on this one. I don’t need to see real images of extreme violence to understand the brutality. In fact, I think exposure to such images poisons the mind. Moreover, Richard makes a valid point that some people actually enjoy, or at least are fascinated by violent images. The “Faces of Death” series was quite popular awhile back. Richard wasn’t calling for censorship. He merely questioned Roland’s decision to post links on his blog.

December 1, 2006 @ 7:21 pm | Comment

@Richard: “But did you see the way that site presents it? It’s base and vulgar, sellinbg the Rape oif Nanking as a snuff flick.”

Fair enough. The guy who runs that site is quite a character, and does seem a bit of a huckster. So far I’ve found that he runs a one man publishing house called “University Press California”, apparently working off confusions with “University of California Press” for legitimacy, has written about neuropsychology and 9-11, run for President (as a Republican) in 2000 and apparently thinks telling us his high school GPA (from 30+ years ago) is worth putting in his autobio page. He doesn’t appear to have held an academic or practicing medical post in at least a decade.

On the other hand, at least one of his neuropsychology books has been reviewed in reputable journals as a worthwhile standard textbook (I checked Google Scholar, I’m not talking about the gushing quotes he papers all over his page). Eccentric one, him.

I can’t watch the movie without enabling a proxy, and I’m too lazy for that. Did anybody actually watch it?

December 1, 2006 @ 7:49 pm | Comment

I think I have a theory about people over 25 who mention their high school GPA. I’m not sure what it means, but it’s generally not a good sign.

You gotta check out his self portrait photo gallery:

http://brainmind.com/Joseph.html

The first picture is in fact a photo of him photoshopped during his Deep Purple phase, and further down is one with a dog that I suspect is Cat Stevens influenced. Then there’s his cleaned up 90s studying-in-the-backyard pose that, if it included a beret and a pipe, would be more reminiscent of a certain old visitor of PKD…

That is followed by him in a pinstripe looking vaguely like some sort of Bollywood gangster…

This is the most fun I’ve had from an ESWN link in a long time. Who says Roland doesn’t provide entertainment value?

December 1, 2006 @ 7:59 pm | Comment

Dave, I watched about 45 minutes. It started off okay, and then descended into the kinds of attacks on Japan that you expect to read in China Daily forums. The scenes of butchery were non-stop, and I finally just turned it off. Some of the footage is interesting, worthwhile of preserving and showing in a museum or textbook. But the way it’s couched in the tired anti-Japan sloganeering robs the film of any historical gravity.

December 1, 2006 @ 8:07 pm | Comment

Thanks for your research, Dave. I since googled around, and can’t help but conclude this is one very peculiar man we’re dealing with. By the way, parts of his Rape of Nanking movie can be found on youtube.

December 1, 2006 @ 8:15 pm | Comment

I’m not gonna click that link if you gave me a million dollars. I already read most of the book (Rape of Nanking), and there were more than enough pictures.

December 1, 2006 @ 8:19 pm | Comment

I think it was John Updike who wrote a story called
“The Thirty-Yard Pass” (or some long pass) about a middle aged man who had one great moment as a high school football star, and then never accomplished anything in his life after that. It was a portrait of an especially pathetic (and common) type of character.

But then I guess if you’ve never accomplished anything at all – not even one good football move – then you wear a beret and talk to yourself on your own blog all day.

December 1, 2006 @ 8:21 pm | Comment

Here’s this for a sense of accomplishment – I don’t have (or know of having) a GPA never mind knowing how to utilize it CVistically.

I tried to view the video just for some perspective on this, and it was a no-go.

Perhaps we should not be so quick to judge ESWN though. I don’t think his ‘Recommended’ links are necessarily endorsements, but often more seem to work to inform us all of whats out there. In fact, I’m often frustrated of his strict translation-no commentary style. Just because Richard took the time to condone this, doesn’t mean that Roland supports it.

One further question, why do people feel the need to create pseudo-creative spellings of their name to add some mock-artistic flair to it? I mean, Rhawn?

Oh, and meaning no dishonour to those who died in both the Holocaust or the Japanese occupation of China, but the biggest atrocity of that Web site is the damn design.

December 1, 2006 @ 9:35 pm | Comment

>b>I think it was John Updike who wrote a story called “The Thirty-Yard Pass” (or some long pass) about a middle aged man who had one great moment as a high school football star, and then never accomplished anything in his life after that. It was a portrait of an especially pathetic (and common) type of character.

Tom, from Great Gatsby is another. And wasn’t it Paul Fussell who said that Americans spend their lives trying to get revenge for the things that happened to them in high school? And not only Americans either.

Michael

December 1, 2006 @ 10:40 pm | Comment

Thanks for the laugh, laowai! I needed that. And yes, the design is truly awful.

In all seriousness, if those “recommended links” aren’t an erndorsement, what are they intended to be? When Roland points you to something he thinks is foolish or false, he certainly lets you know it. i always thought those links were for things he agreed with or at least in which he saw something special, intelligent or useful…

December 1, 2006 @ 11:03 pm | Comment

Please see the important update I’ve added to this post. Roland explains all.

December 1, 2006 @ 11:57 pm | Comment

Richard

Thanks for posting the site. I have read about what happened in Nanjing during WWII and what the Japanese did. But I never really delve much into it as it was what it was, the past. Nevertheless the images I saw today stirred up some deep inner digust within me. I will not judge ESWN on his motives for putting up these materials in his blog but what I saw hardly titillate but provoked a deep sense of sadness for those who had suffered and anger towards the Japanese WHO HAD COMMITTED THESE ACTS( plse note that this is not towards all Japanese) . The only rationale that had enabled them to be able to commit these acts of barbarity, I believe is that they did not consider those they rape,murder and torture as remotely equal to them or as fellow humans.
My grandfather with his family lived through these times but they were in South East Asia which was also under Japanese occupation. What they witnessed is the same although to a much lesser in degree. My grandfather was a Koumintang soldier who fought for Sun Yat San against the Manchus and then fell ill and had to retire from the army. He then emigrated from China to where we lived now. While he was here ,he was a journalist and had wrote inflammatory letters against the Japanese invasion of China and what they did in Manchuria as an example.(to his credit he wrote strongly against the Communist then too )
When the Japnesae finally invaded South East Asia, their Kempetai hunted for him and he had to hide in the jungles to avoid capture. He and the family survived.

The sense of anger for what they have done does not go away easily despite the numerous apologies proffered by the Japanese government. What we do not see is any sense of genuine remorse and we also perceive that there is a sense of denial(revisionist textbooks for one as evidence of such attitude) within the present Japanese population’s psyche that these acts of inhumanity through out the territories that they had occupied during WWII had occurred and they,the Japanese, are capable of such acts. Plus we also the sense amongst some of them(which may very well be a very small minority as I will not generalise) that they are a superior race(we Chinese need also need to look at ourselves on this issue) than the rest of Asia. Until we all can adopt the belief and attitude that we are all equal and are fellow humans and need to treat each other as such , similar acts are bound to repeat itself. (and these acts of inhumanities are happening even now) I fear for the future.

December 2, 2006 @ 9:22 am | Comment

Flabbergasted,

Would images of innocent class enemies being beaten and killed by Red Guards have aroused the same feelings? How about photos of political prisoners getting their heads blown off by PLA guards or 8-month-old fetuses forcibly removed from their mothers’ bodies?

The problem with such images is that they do inspire anger towards the Japanese in general. I lived in South Korea for almost ten years. Hating Japan and the Japanese is a national pasttime there. Kids’ drawings expressing hatred towards Japan were posted on the walls inside a subway station until negative international attention prompted their removal (http://uqmgp.hp.infoseek.co.jp/ ). A downtown park periodically featured a large display of very graphic photos of Japanese wartime atrocities. Every single Korean knows the history between the two countries, so such displays do not teach anyone anything, but simply stir up unhealthy hatred.

Rather than watching a video of WWII Japanese soldiers raping and killing Chinese women, Americans in particular should be seeing images of what is happening in Iraq and reflect on the rising human toll of this unnecessary war.

December 2, 2006 @ 10:39 am | Comment

Flabbergasted, the “sense of anger” wioll NEVER go away as long as it’s nurtured actively by the Chinese government. There should be anger towards the Japan of 60 years ago and toward the monsters who still try to revise their history, like those operating the Yasukuni shrine. But the blind rage that is carefully cultivated against Japan, inciting young people to burn Japanese stores and busnesses, is a disease. It is especially hypocritical in light of the government’s blackout over its own misdeeds that resulted in far more dead Chinese than the acts of the Japanese.

December 2, 2006 @ 10:45 am | Comment

Sonagi

You have not read my previous comments. I strongly believe that Mao is one of the biggest monsters of our time with about 70 million Chinese I believe were in one way or another torture , killed or died under his watch. The CCP needs to reconcile with the Chinese people in general these events , sooner rather than later. The Gang of Four were trial and should deserve greater punishment for what they have done during the Cultural revolutions. I have relatives that are back in China that have suffered severely under them. Yes it would provoke the same feelings if not more as it was Chinese against Chinese. These acts of barbarity needs to be remembered and put in it’s proper place as lessons for us all. It must not happen again.

Richard

I saw the part one of the Youtube link you had provided. Yes it was propaganda that started with saying that the Chinese people were self sufficient and never invaded any one. It was all bull and did not recollect the expansionist activities of the Han and Tang dynasties.

Nevertheless it does not diminish what the Japanese did and needs to do for all of us to move on. Richard you must realised that these feelings while not fully uttered in South East Asia compared with what was said and being said in Korea and China( for economic reasons) the feelings are still there for those who were there and still remembers especially the older generations.

December 2, 2006 @ 11:18 am | Comment

I’m with Richard on this.

Both films are sickening pornography of violence, masturbatory titillation for overgrown adolescents. Context is everything. In the UK I have seen documentaries by the BBC and Channel 4 which include images just as graphic as these, but within the context of a sober and enlightening historical analysis.

Whatever else these “documentaries” are they ain’t scholarly.

Incidentally, Iris Chang’s book is considered a joke by most reputable scholars.

December 2, 2006 @ 11:25 am | Comment

You think these images are too shocking, too extreme? If only seeing them is too shocking for you, then you must understand how it feels to experience them. Millions of citizens of Nanjing experienced that shock themselves.

I watched this film, and unfortunately I think the images are not shocking enough. The more shocking the images, the better. It’ll only stimulate more hatred towards the Japanese. This is so called “Hatred Education”. China today needs more such hatred education towards Japan, otherwise the society will fall apart.

I think the biggest humanitarian crime committed in the 20th century is America dropping two nuclear bombs on Japan. How can America be so cruel as to drop only two nuclear bombs. Two bombs do not have enough power to sink that island to the bottom of the sea, to totally remove the biological foundation of that evil species.

December 2, 2006 @ 11:25 am | Comment

Speak of the Devil and he appears. Sojourner mentioned “masturbatory titillation for overgrown adolescents”, and then pigsun appeared less than one minute later.

December 2, 2006 @ 11:38 am | Comment

Is pig’s son (and with his last comment he does indeed deserve that rather rude moniker) like, totally obtuse or what? And it’s interesting to see him reveal all of his hatred, naked and unfettered. Now we know how his mind works, in case there was ever any doubt. He epitomizes the “blind rage” that challenges China’s ability to mature and to be taken seriously on the world stage. He and Joseph Rhwan, PhD, would make a great couple.

December 2, 2006 @ 11:46 am | Comment

@Flabbergasted

Don’t waste your time trying to explain to these Americans the anger and hatred that exists among Chinese towards Japanese atrocities.

When I studied in the US, I also learned how the whites ignored the atrocities and brutalities they committed against the blacks.

Whites say this was “in the past.” They told the blacks to “get a life,” “move on.” Well I also met many blacks who hate the whites for this attempt to ignore or whitewash this history.

Racist whites and racist Japanese are very sensitive when “history,” especially history with photographic proof, is on public display for all the world to see.

Most of the people at this site are upset at ESWN for posting links to the sites that show the inhumanity of Japanese Imperialism. That’s OK.

Chinese don’t need whites to tell us who to hate and who not to hate. Just like the whites in the US cannot stop blacks from hating them.

Hate is good when it is use by a people that have been wronged. Turning the other cheek is a luxury for white Americans and Japanese Imperialists.

December 2, 2006 @ 11:58 am | Comment

Oh dear.

December 2, 2006 @ 11:59 am | Comment

This thread reminded me that there are a Holocaust deniers among the Japanese and Japanophiles:

http://www.occidentalism.org/?p=94

Don’t waste your time posting any comments on his blog. He seems to get a lot of his material from LGF-type Japanese sites like these:

http://www2u.biglobe.ne.jp/~sus/child.htm

http://kyouji.seesaa.net/

http://blog.livedoor.jp/lancer1/

http://hwabyung.exblog.jp/

http://specificasia.seesaa.net/

There are even more specifically devoted to bashing Korea. I suspect that anti-Japanism in Korea and China fuels these sites and their creators and readers. Hate begets hate, and that’s why hate is so harmful.

December 2, 2006 @ 12:21 pm | Comment

Mingtian

Plse kindly do not associate me with the hatred that you encourages. At no time in my comments was the word hatred used. I am into moving on and turning the other cheek. I believe these hatred and even anger does not serve us Chinese( or the Blacks for that matter) well.

It is for you (I wanted to say us) but I am of Chinese origin but I am a South East Asian now, to make China strong not only for the priviliged few but also for the masses. Too long the ‘Emperors’ and his cohorts have taken advantage of the masses. Truth be told these Emperors through different times have done more inhumane things than the foreigner has ever done.

The best revenge is to make sure China is strong enough to defend itself and what happened in Nanjing never happens again.

December 2, 2006 @ 1:01 pm | Comment

Pigsun
You cannot do that ,nuking Japan from the face of the earth where will I get my favorite Japanese Chef to make all those delicious shashimi and sushi
Plus who will draw those Japanese Anime that I enjoy so much.

You see we are more multicultural than you think

As some one said Make Love not War

December 2, 2006 @ 1:17 pm | Comment

@Flabbergasted

I understand well your “I am into moving on and turning the other cheek.”

However, your grovelling will gain you no respect or dignity. History has shown that “your turn the other cheek” policy only caused great suffering to the Chinese people.

The strength of China will only come from having a firm understanding that to be strong is the only way to prevent a Nanjing from happening again. But before that can happen there must be a thorough understanding of history.

You have your opinion as to how Chinese should address the atrocities of history, I have mine.

I resent the arrogance of Americans telling Chinese or, for that matter, blacks, Palestinians, Iraqis, etc. how to respond to their historical tragedies.

December 2, 2006 @ 1:46 pm | Comment

Foreigners don’t understand China. We should be silent. In America, we never look at our own atrocities. No one in America knows how we bad white people killed Indians, lynched blacks and massacred people in My Lai. How dare we criticize China when we ignore and censor what we ourselves have done?

Sounds like a convincing argument, except for the fact that it’s totally false. Every newspaper and blog in America that’s worth its salt right now is shrieking at the top of its lungs about the war in Iraq and how bad it is, just as we did over Abu Ghraib. So spare us your pious and ignorant arguments about the ignorant white man. It only reinforces the image you’ve already fostered of foaming-at-the-mouth, irrational, closed-minded automaton ready to jump up at a moment’s notice to assault innocent Japanese today for a crime committed more than half a century ago by their grandparents. Brilliant.

And yes, we all know how badly the Japanese behaved. Read my post and comments carefully, if you are capable of doing so, and try to draw some distinctions between the horrors the Japanese and Nazis inflicted, and using these stories as cheap hype to titillate and excite readers into ordering their snuff flicks.

December 2, 2006 @ 1:59 pm | Comment

I know that I’m about to state the bloody obviouos here but the thing I hate about Chinese hatred of Japan is how is how tranparently political it is. The CCP’s power rests on a tripod of economic growth, ignorance and hate. By sowing fear and hatred (through distortion and outright lies) they rally popular support for themselves.

Now, granted, the Japanese aren’t exactly helping matters with their national denial of WWII atrocities but pisun, all you other nationalists, why can’t you see that you’re being duped! You’re being used!

You’re being exposed to facts (the Japanese were barbaric during WWII) that are used to perpetuate greater lies (Japan still wants to invade China)!

Did any of you ever bother to think that maybe a party (the CCP) that controls all media and education, that crushes all voices that disagree with it, might not be teaching you everything their is to know about Japan because they NEED you to remain ignorant hatemongers? That your ignorance is their strength?

I know I’m wasting my breath. I know how you Chinese nationalist work very hard at remaining willfully ignorant. And your nation will continue to suffer for it. But it needed to be pointed out just to make sure that the ignorant don’t have the last word.

December 2, 2006 @ 2:28 pm | Comment

Buddah, you’re banging your head against a wall. Three topics on which no Chinese person educated in China can compromise on: Taiwan, Tibet and Japan. I bang my head against the wall, too, hoping that maybe the most slender beam of light might find its way into the dark crevasses of the brainwashed-in-China psyche, but it’s nearly always a fruitless exercise, and in the end counter-productive since it takes a strain on your own emotions. Yet still, we try, hoping that maybe, just maybe, this one time we’ll get through. But don’t hold your breath.

December 2, 2006 @ 2:38 pm | Comment

I am Chinese in Mainland, born in 1980. No relation was killed by Japnese. Now, i just want to tell dry facts. Pardon me for my poor english,lol.

It is Mao Zedong and Zhou Enlai who established the relationship with Japan after world war 2. Zhou Enlai did not accept the war compensation so as to show the willingness to establish the friendship. He said let use the history as the mirror to reflect on, and draw lessons from the mistakes. I believe he did this for there were few countires, just like you, in the world befriend new China at that time.

We did not hate Japenese that time and in late 1980s~1990s, in fact, quite on contrary, we quite love Japan. We are pround of having a TV set or bicycles made in Japan. For Japanese good is of good quality and reliable. We love japense movie stars and cartonese,like Yamaguchi Momoe and Takakura Ken. I still remember my family stay before the small black and white SANYO TV set watching the Japanese series program staring Yamaguchi Momoe, she is so popular that her pictures can be seen here and there on the street. When i was in high school, i read tons of Japanese Cartoon books. I love Japan so much that i wish these bad deeds in my text book was conducted by those dead, and their offsprings are so lovely that i’ve got every reason to love them.

But later in 2000s, my views toward Japan changed. With the wide application of internet, many forums held great number of talks with abundant pictures and words about what japan did in recent years.

I AM TELLING YOU, the things hurt Chinese most is their prime minister keep visiting Yasukuni Shrine, and refuse to conduct the Apologization in Writting as they did to Korea . Their court rejected every lawsuite prosecuted by those old war victims suffering from sex slaves or germ warfares. They even declare the Nanjing Slaughter was totally made up. These things again and again warn us Chinese people and bring us to the misery time.

Personally, i described the relation of China and Japan like this: you have a good frind in neighorhood. One day, his father raped your mother and sisters, and murdered your father brutally, your brothers were also dead for driving his father out your home and fighting his father. Then, his father was also dead, your friend lost his father and also suffered a lot. You and your neighbour befriend again. But this so-called friend, keep his murderer father’s bloody clothings and weapons used by cirminal in a brillant place and admonish his son to pay their respects every year. What will you think? Show mercy? Befriend? Compared their behaviors with what Germany did post war, no wonder we Chinese people and Korean feel against Japan.

We all love the riches, just like man love beauty, and the people pay more respect to peoloe live in city instead of remote rural area. We love Japan and USA who bring us investment and innovative technology. But how can we show our love and respects to such neighbor.

We want all human befriend and one day can use the football or sports games to solve all politic issues. But that is only a dream.

Hope you will talk more with both sides before you make any decision.

There is plenty to say, but meaningless to tell you, just waste my time.

December 2, 2006 @ 4:23 pm | Comment

I am Chinese in Mainland, born in 1980. No relation was killed by Japnese. Now, i just want to tell dry facts. Pardon me for my poor english,lol.

It is Mao Zedong and Zhou Enlai who established the relationship with Japan after world war 2. Zhou Enlai did not accept the war compensation so as to show the willingness to establish the friendship. He said let use the history as the mirror to reflect on, and draw lessons from the mistakes. I believe he did this for there were few countires, just like you, in the world befriend new China at that time.

We did not hate Japenese that time and in late 1980s~1990s, in fact, quite on contrary, we quite love Japan. We are pround of having a TV set or bicycles made in Japan. For Japanese good is of good quality and reliable. We love japense movie stars and cartonese,like Yamaguchi Momoe and Takakura Ken. I still remember my family stay before the small black and white SANYO TV set watching the Japanese series program staring Yamaguchi Momoe, she is so popular that her pictures can be seen here and there on the street. When i was in high school, i read tons of Japanese Cartoon books. I love Japan so much that i wish these bad deeds in my text book was conducted by those dead, and their offsprings are so lovely that i’ve got every reason to love them.

But later in 2000s, my views toward Japan changed. With the wide application of internet, many forums held great number of talks with abundant pictures and words about what japan did in recent years.

I AM TELLING YOU, the things hurt Chinese most is their prime minister keep visiting Yasukuni Shrine, and refuse to conduct the Apologization in Writting as they did to Korea . Their court rejected every lawsuite prosecuted by those old war victims suffering from sex slaves or germ warfares. They even declare the Nanjing Slaughter was totally made up. These things again and again warn us Chinese people and bring us to the misery time.

Personally, i described the relation of China and Japan like this: you have a good frind in neighorhood. One day, his father raped your mother and sisters, and murdered your father brutally, your brothers were also dead for driving his father out your home and fighting his father. Then, his father was also dead, your friend lost his father and also suffered a lot. You and your neighbour befriend again. But this so-called friend, keep his murderer father’s bloody clothings and weapons used by cirminal in a brillant place and admonish his son to pay their respects every year. What will you think? Show mercy? Befriend? Compared their behaviors with what Germany did post war, no wonder we Chinese people and Korean feel against Japan.

We all love the riches, just like man love beauty, and the people pay more respect to peoloe live in city instead of remote rural area. We love Japan and USA who bring us investment and innovative technology. But how can we show our love and respects to such neighbor.

We want all human befriend and one day can use the football or sports games to solve all politic issues. But that is only a dream.

Hope you will talk more with both sides before you make any decision.

There is plenty to say, but meaningless to tell you, just waste my time.

December 2, 2006 @ 4:25 pm | Comment

Yan Jing wrote:

“But this so-called friend, keep his murderer father’s bloody clothings and weapons used by cirminal in a brillant place and admonish his son to pay their respects every year. What will you think?”

I think it sounds like what the Communist Party does.

December 2, 2006 @ 4:44 pm | Comment

There is an old joke:
In a celebrity’s fun and great bithday party,
the birthday man suddenly shed a tear, “today is my birthday, but my father also died that day, i feel pain.”
Hearing his words, every guest turn from happy to sad to show their pity.
Seeing this, the man dramatically come back to happy, declaring:
“Don’t be sad, basically, my father is a rapist and looter. His death is the luck to all human being!”
Every guset’s mind become easy then.
But, later, this man make a final statement like some cute Japanese:

“My father raped other women just want to give me more brother to accmpany me.

My father looted others just want to buy me a toy car.

He is such an nice father.”

This time, the teased guests did not know to comfort or celebrate if they wanna kiss the rich’s ass.

Hahahahahah, LoL.

December 2, 2006 @ 4:54 pm | Comment

Yan Jing, I really, really appreciate your intelligent comment. You are not wasting anyone’s time I have long been a critic of Koizumi’s visits to the shrine. However, i don’t think it was just the visits alone that keep the Chinese in constant outrage against Japan – it was the way the Chinese government exploited these visits to keep the flames burning for hatred of Japan.

I am aware of how under Mao the Japanese were basically forgiven and that makes the current hysteria all the more foolish. We had the same situation then – Japan’s reluctance to fully apologize, the horror stories…and yet the burning hatred of Japan was basically extinguished, or at least held under control. Now it’s been rekindled with more force than ever before for obvious political purposes, and the shrine provides the convenient excuse. Do you seriously believe that when the visits to the shrine stop, China will suddenly drop its anger and just forget all about it? No, the shrine is used to keep the rage current, to say, “Look, they still hate and disrespect us.” It is used to keep the people’s critical eye off of their own government and focused firmly on Japan.

The fact that this thread has gone in the direction it has speaks to my point, I started it as a critique of a site exploiting the massacre of the Chinese in order to bring in some money and appeal to people’s lust for violent images. But as soon as you bring up the massacre, no matter in what context, it brings in a stream of furious, fist-swinging comments from Chinese who seem barely in control of their emotions, like Pigsun above, and mingtian. All because a Japanese leader goes to a shrine once a year? Is this really a rational response – does the visit deserve this kind of reaction? We all know the sufferings inflicted on the Chinese. We really do understand that – especially myself, who lost relatives to the Nazis. But I also understand when people’s emotions are being manipulated, when they are being encouraged to hate. Maybe Japan should apologize yet again, with more sincerity. Maybe the PM should stop going to the shrine. But are these issues of such magnitude that they justify the never-ending wailing over how terrible the Japanese are, to the point that riots break out and cars burned and businesses destroyed? Time to grow up. It’s not always a fair world and things can’t be exactly as we’d like them. There re plenty of things to be enraged about, like what Mao did to the Chinese mind, or what Bush has done to the image of America, or of what Sudan is doing to the people of Darfur. The Nanjing Massacre took place 60 years ago, and while it mustn’t be forgotten or trivialized, it mustn’t be exploited to keep the people of China perpetually transfixed on the notion of the Evil Japan. As long as it’s used that way, the Chinese people who succumb to it will appear to be wallowing in victimhood and constantly feeling sorry for themselves. It does no good for China, except in terms of keeping the real things you should be angry about today – like the corruption and police-state tactics of the Party – out of the public’s eye.

December 2, 2006 @ 4:58 pm | Comment

little Ivan :
——————
Glad to meet you here.

You kept the 911 building wreckage, right.
I konw what you refer to.

I think it is quite stupid to destoy all these monumentalizing things of World war 2 for our heros, since the Japan keeps their Yasukuni Shrine for their murder father, and our childern love japan sooooo much.

Do not ever think we Chinese people is too stupid to compare with your feedom county, such as U.S. and Tianwan.

At least, I can read English, but I bet you can not read Chinese. How come you are more clever and know the Chinese better.

You are so pround of being a freedom country, and protecting Tianwan, but open you eyes to see what the corrupt president of Tianwan did. I do not undersand the Tiwannese, there are so many people support independance in Tianwan, but why they choose Chen Shuibian.

Come on! Communist Party is just a sybmbol, I bet you foreiger politican take that more serious than us. One day, we can rename the party to American Party if we like.

If you wanna to librate us, come and do something, do not bitch around. We are not that unreasonable. We welcome everyone to invest in China or educate us, part of all humun being. Come on baby, waiting for you.

December 2, 2006 @ 5:16 pm | Comment

Richard
——————-
I admit there is the problem in China. Some young man, not the government, make up the stuff and spread the rumer to get the Japanse wrong.

I am rather disapointed to China today. Everyone is restless and indifferent to anything.The government can sacrifice and punish people but people can not punish government if they do wrong.

I will follow your blog, bye bye, i go back to real world to strive for house, mortgage.

December 2, 2006 @ 5:29 pm | Comment

Like Richard, I feel very uncomfortable about the way in which the Chinese public has been manipulated in this politics of hatred directed against Japan.

There’s no doubt that China had suffered most from Japanese invasion in WWII. But Chinese people were not alone in this suffering. Many older generation Australians had also been through similar trauma and they are still very vocal about their hatred towards the brutality of the Japanese during WWII. In fact Australians survived as Japanese prisoners of war in disproportionately high numbers. So much so that the Australian Broadcasting Corporation (ABC) sponsored the production of a TV drama series based on the experience of these survivors. The series is called “Changi”. It was aired in 2002. So both Chinese and Australians have similar memories of sufferings in the hands of Japnese invaders during WWII. But that’s where the similarity stops.

I am now quoting form the ABC website to show you how this series is promoted in Australia: “Changi is a story of Australian mateship. Over six episodes, the series follows six young Australians who go to war, full of confidence and bravado. They land in Singapore in 1942, just in time for surrender. With 15,000 others, they are marched off to Changi prison camp. Together, the six boys survive three and a half years of incarceration … Perhaps because their mateship turned humour into an art form – a force as palpable and powerful as any can of condensed milk or smear of strawberry jam, in the battle to keep body and soul together. Changi is the story of how humour won the battle for six young men.”

In other words, in Australia, we also remember the WWII atrocities and Australians’ sufferings. But we remember it so that we can reflect on who we are and what keeps us together as a nation. We don’t remember it in order to hate.

December 2, 2006 @ 5:47 pm | Comment

@richard

“wallowing in victimhood and constantly feeling sorry for themselves [Chinese]”!!!

Why is it that yellow, brown, and black people are always accused of “wallowing in victimhood and constantly feeling sorry for themselves?

Yet, Americans can run amok around the world telling everyone what to do, how to do it, and when. And, if countries don’t comply, the US has the right to invade them and kill at will.

Darfur, Sudan is none of America’s business. The US is trying to strip away this region from the Sudanese central government in order to have access to the oil fields.

If you and your American hypocrites are so concerned about “human rights,” why don’t you take your American army and go and protect Chechyna? Stop Russia from intimidating Georgia and the Ukraine. Why is the US always choosing small, weak countries to invade? Why don’t they correct Russia’s “human rights” problem?

The world is sick of Americans sticking their nose in places it doesn’t belong.

Richard says, “Time [for China] to grow up.” Well, that’s rich, Richard. So Chinese must jump to American commands in order not to be considered “children”?

Richard says, “It’s not always a fair world and things can’t be exactly as we’d like them.” Ha! You must be insane if you expect Chinese to believe that. Why is it that the unfairness always falls on the yellow, brown, and black people? I don’t see too much unfairness being dumped on white America.

Very soon, the Americans will be driven out of Iraq. We’ll see if you feel so blase about the world “not always being fair.”

The Rape of Nanjing was a very painful event in Chinese history. It is up to the Chinese to decide how we view this vicious invasion, not some foreigner whose country’s own history of vicious invasions is quite long.

December 2, 2006 @ 5:54 pm | Comment

It’s my turn to say: OH DEAR!!

December 2, 2006 @ 6:11 pm | Comment

@richard:
———————————–
I just set myslef as an example for your reference why I hate SOME japanese:
I think its is typical for us in late twenties and thirties.

1. Compared with German, they are so arrogant. Prime minister visit; turn down every court apeal concerning germ war and sex slave.

2. Do not admit the crimes, it is funny, and this causes the suffered become angry.

You always describe us the naive, uneducated, brain-washed. It is not right for your make a correct determination. The ages only care for supporting their families.

We do admit we are encouraged to demostrate and besiege the US embassy when our embassy was bombed.

By comparison, we are not are not intentionally encouraged to hate Japanese by government. It is a big mistake, i would like to point it out.

In fact, the government strictly closed the media covering the anti-japanese parada.

Therefore, i believe the people younger than me, in particular the university students are not brain washed.

They history book and movies about world war II do affect us, but not great.

Please give me you evidence concerning this issue and considering my points if not bothered.

In fact, i would like to be brainwashed, at least, that would give me a belief. I live just in order to live. live up to nothing.

Since I cannot emigrate, I hope you will do me a favor:
First, find a way to cure some Japanese’s extreme nationalism. If they can act like German, I would feel i am much safe and warm in China beside them.

Second, find a way help the China government to behave more properly. Against corruption.

I wish there would be many coming eye-openers to enlight me.

Sorry to take up too many places here.

December 2, 2006 @ 6:27 pm | Comment

shit!shit!shit! we are just the little monks not the buda.

Let’s go supper and eat the animal corpse.
p.s. I will ask someone go extreme to hate every japanses and tell you why they do this.
I will keep at improving my english. Mao once said: day day up, good good study (strive upward everyday, and study well and earnestly) .

December 2, 2006 @ 6:36 pm | Comment

Mingtian,

American bad behavior does not excuse Chinese bad behavior in any way. As foriengers, WE HAVE EVERY RIGHT to critisize China because we hold our own nations to the same standard we hold China to. If you want to discuss American bad behavior look around the forum and you will see many many topics and posts that are HIGHLY critical of the US. In fact a big part of this debate is that you and the other Chinese nationalists want to hold China to a lower standard. You are, in fact, hypocrites.

You want China to be treated as the equal of other nations only when it suits you. Like when you want to enter the WTO or hold the Olympics.

On other issues, Taiwan, Tibet, Japan, Darfur, you always have some pathetic excuse for China’s criminally poor behavior: “We’re the victimes, we’re a developing country, we don’t want to interfere.”

You can’t have it both ways. If you want China to be taken seriously as a responsible member of the international community, have the courage to stand up and admit your faults. Pointing fingers and saying “but they do it too” is just moral cowardice and a sign that China, in many ways, is not really “developed” at all.

Yan Jing,

Hope we see you again. I completely disagree with you but you seem like you’re interested in real discussion and not just name calling.

December 2, 2006 @ 6:45 pm | Comment

Oh, dear. How can an enlightened westerner ever understand the brainwashed Chinese? That’s mission impossible. However, Chinese government manipulations aside, how do you explain the negative feelings that many overseas Chinese and non-Chinese (eg., Koreans) have toward Japan?

Germany has paid $5 billion to compensate the victims of slave and forced labor: Japan has refused to pay Chinese slave labors even their unpaid wartime wages. The Nuremberg Trial convicts are still criminals in Germany, but the Tokyo trial convicts are in the Shrine. When apologies do not jibe with actions, they are just hollow words.

On a personal note, I worked with a Japanese colleague who denied Nanjing Massacre as Chinese propaganda, but I also saw a Japanese student presentation on the Rape of Nanjing. I am still optimistic that China and Japan will become friendlier due to their inherent cultural ties and close economic relationship with some bumpy ride on the way.

December 2, 2006 @ 8:40 pm | Comment

@Iron Buddha

You raise points I didn’t bring up. You ignore the ones I did. But, that would be expected from someone representing the so-called “superpower.”

The Chinese Government doesn’t go around constantly telling the US to solve their racial problem.

The Chinese government doesn’t constantly harangue the US to save more and stop printing depreciating dollars.

The Chinese government doesn’t constantly interfere in the internal affairs of the US.

China doesn’t support the independence of Puerto Rico.

China doesn’t support the independence of Hawaii.

China doesn’t support the independence of Aztlan [the American south-west].

If my memory serves me right, the WTO and the Olympics do NOT belong to the US. China has a natural right to belong to these international organization.

China has been very clear about respecting the internal affairs of other countries. What’s wrong with that? In international affairs, who named the US God?

For your information, China has good, normal relations with the majority of the world’s nations.

China doesn’t send its military to Korea, Afghanistan, Iraq, Germany, Japan, Turkey, Cuba, or the many other places where the US has troops.

China does not need the approval or blessing of America to take it proper place in the world.

Whether you like it or not, China will continue to develop in a peaceful manner. But, as the Arab saying goes, “The dogs howl but the caravan moves on.”

December 2, 2006 @ 8:43 pm | Comment

@Yan Jing:

“little Ivan :
——————
Glad to meet you here.

You kept the 911 building wreckage, right.
I konw what you refer to.”

Uh… Ivan was probably referring to Mao, the Great Leap Forward and the Cultural Revolution.

9-11 doesn’t really work as an analogy. That really didn’t make any sense.

“all these monumentalizing things of World war 2 for our heros, since the Japan keeps their Yasukuni Shrine for their murder father,”

Well, some of China’s heroes murdered alot of Chinese people. Some Japanese leaders murdered alot of Japanese people. There are, too American leaders/heroes who murdered alot of American people.

“In fact, i would like to be brainwashed, at least, that would give me a belief. ”

That’s so sad. And you know what? It’s not simply a Chinese thing. There are American nationalists, Japanese nationalists, Mexican, Brazilian, Iraqi, etc. etc. who all prefer to believe that their nation and its heroes all have some magic goodness. They don’t. They’re people, tragic and flawed, heinous and great.

Nationalists always look to lump everyone into two categories, us and them. Chinese are brainwashed; Americans are righteous. Japanese are evil; Chinese are honorable. The fact is there are brainwashed, righteous, evil and honorable people in each of these nations, and that’s makes it all the more complicated.

But you’d rather not think it through. You’d rather be “brainwashed”.

Fine. Shut the fuck up and go work on your mortgage. Let some other Chinese person, who is willing to think about the difficult stuff, come here to take your place.

That goes double for Mingtian.

December 2, 2006 @ 8:56 pm | Comment

Another “OH DEAR” from me.

It’s interesting to watch how this thread had been derailed and manipulated. The original question raised is about whether it is bad taste to promote a site that sells violence. It then morphs into yet another nationalists anti-Japanese rant. It then ended up with an anti-US chorus performed in unity by the GOOD, the BAD and the UGLY.

Who needs TV soapy if we can have Peking opera?

December 2, 2006 @ 9:04 pm | Comment

Dave,

I think that it’s about time for me to repeat my single-word original comment for this thread: “Desparation”.

Ivan asks me to send his regards. He’s too busy munching popcorns.

December 2, 2006 @ 9:22 pm | Comment

CLC said:

“On a personal note, I worked with a Japanese colleague who denied Nanjing Massacre as Chinese propaganda, but I also saw a Japanese student presentation on the Rape of Nanjing. “

That is why some public availability of graphic images of war has value. It does make it harder for those who publically deny the brutality. There are Japanese who deny the atrocities and there are others who risked their careers to expose shocking truths. I believe that the medical experiments camp in northern China was first publicized by a Japanese.

Ming said:

China would be shooting itself in the foot since it depends on the US to keep buying more and more of its exports.

“China doesn’t support the independence of Puerto Rico.

China doesn’t support the independence of Aztlan [the American south-west].”

The US government doesn’t support the independence of Manchuria, Xinjiang , Tibet, or Hainan Island. BTW, there is an independence movement in Puerto Rico that operates freely and openly.

December 2, 2006 @ 9:39 pm | Comment

@Fat Cat: But I just can’t look away…

Hell, my pizza got cold because of this damn thread, and if that ain’t a reason for me to resent it…

Regardless, what I think is the damn pain in the ass part about the Chinese representation here is there are echoes of similarity between those that have a point and those that have lost the plot… and that makes it harder for us (ok, me) to discern if they’re all reading from the same pamphlet, or they do have some form of educated idea about this.

Yan Jing made me think, Pigsun made me think Chinese people are feckin’ idiots, Mingtian offered some balance between the two. Do you guys travel together? Is this some weird ancient alliance of equilibrium that us Laowai couldn’t possibly hope to understand?

And to add fuel. There’s a shrine in a square not too far away where many people pay their respects to a murderer of Chinese. And that one can’t hide behind the veneer of also housing legit ‘heros’. Just one waxsexy body.

December 2, 2006 @ 10:09 pm | Comment

Yan Jing was doing so well – he could be a good commenter here and I hope he sticks around. Pigsun – well, we all know about him; his name says it all. I didn’t see Mingtian adding much balance, laowai. He is determined, far more than Yan Jing, to throw the thread off topic and blabber on with the usual cliches of how dreadful the white barbarians were. Ironically, if he combed though this site he’d see no one is more critical of the white-as-snow US government than myself., But why let inconvenient facts get in the way…?

And Fat Cat, I am not a bit surprised to see this thread deteriorate into the usual circus. As i said, there are hot-button topics which, simply by bringing them up, context be damned, set off a visceral and uncontrolled reaction, like paying a quarter at the carnival to see the dancing chicken. Drop in the coin, and there it goes. Bring up Tibet, Taiwanese independence and the Japanese, and you have an instant circus. Same cast of characters, same refusal to listen and think critically, same obstinate fury and hurt feelings, same shrieks about how Westerners “don’t understand China.” Sorry, but taking a look at the Westerners’ comment here on China and the angry Chinese comments on America, I, as the truth barometer of this site, am forced to make the impartial judgement that the Westerners, at least in this case, score higher.

This notion that we in the West don’t hold our government to account, while we hpocritically reprimand the CCP…well, did anyone notice what happened in the last election? And wouldn’t it be cool if you in China could make similar choices? (And yeah, I know, the Chinese aren’t ready for democracy, they’re too uneducated, they need a “tough” leader, China’s too big for elections, one-party rule is working, let tehm take baby steps toward freedom and democracy, don’t force the Western system on others, maybe in 50 years, quack, quack, quack…) Okay, sorry for drifting a bit – it’s getting late, and this thread is getting kind of cob-webbed…

December 2, 2006 @ 11:03 pm | Comment

Well said, Fat Cat!
Here’s my bit:
I really sympathize with all the victims of the Second Warld War, but what I don’t understand is, why do so many Chinese people admire Hitler.

December 2, 2006 @ 11:05 pm | Comment

Interesting point, Oliver Twist. But maybe these angry young Chinese know something more about history than we do. In this deeply intellectual thread by leading Chinese foreign policy experts, they come to the conclusion that Iris Chang was murdered. not only murdered, but by Jews. I kid you not (the thread is a must-read-to-believe). So why should we be surprised that those sharing this mentality would emulate Hitler? [edited by Richard – it was to long, and it’s too late. Goodnight.]

December 2, 2006 @ 11:16 pm | Comment

Richard wrote:

“But maybe these angry young Chinese know something more about history than we do. In this deeply intellectual thread by leading Chinese foreign policy experts, they come to the conclusion that Iris Chang was murdered. not only murdered, but by Jews.”

You mean they’ve been taking Borat SERIOUSLY?
(And I wouldn’t be the least bit surprised if they did.)

December 3, 2006 @ 8:08 am | Comment

Richard,

This is a precious piece of gem you’ve found. Who needs hideous Chinese BBS when one can get entertainment of this quality from the China Daily. The only hope is that those experts are not too seriously about this “conclusion”. But then if they can believe in Borat, they can believe in anything.

December 3, 2006 @ 11:35 am | Comment

My girlfriend and I feel quite funny to see some of your guys saying we admires Hilter.
It is stuipid and useless to get angry on this cyber world.
In mindsay, I was astonished to see a 13-year-old English girl’s blog saying she will kill all Commies.
Are all mankind in the world brainwashed?
Or, are these the jokes (including iris chang) made up by the bored people?They need some feeling in their dull life and an excuse to lead off their hates on other things.
Am i wrong to admire the hero, the firefighters in 9-11 events, are they the waxsexy body?
First, we should find the solutions to prevent such things happen again in the name of nationalism. In particuar, the Japan has kept the pathological nationalism more or less. You fix your eyes only on China, and despite the Japan is not good of China, Japan, and US.
I guess they kept their nationalism, or the “brainwash” because the nationalism/brainwash can make mircle, they drive battleplans to hit the battleships, they make economic miracles.
In Mao’s period, we are brainwashed, and we made a lot miracles. For example, we made A-bomb and h-bomb in extremly hard conditions.We do not lose the Korean War, although i personally think this war is not good for either side.
I believe some Japanese kept their extrem nationalism because of the Asian people lacking the sense of democracy. They were less developed so that they had no choice but to be brainwashed or go nationalism to fight the invasion from the west on hundred years ago.
This is the only chance they could survive.
You are so lucky for not being raped and invaded, and the Germany is the enemy worthy respct.
I have many evidences support both sides.
But it is meanningless to quarrel on every single event.

We should find a way to solve this and communicate more.

Personally, i repeat i give myself as an example. I hate some japanese, for they cast germ bombs in my hometown Changde. With some suppotive japanese lawyers, the war victims put up the apeal for compensation.
But the Japanese count rejected the appeal.

I ask you kindly to comfort me, and i will join you to love all japanese. Richard, please mail me once you are free.

BTW, the Korean young people can cut their tumbs down to protest the Japanese. Why their government manupilate them on this? Korean act up more fiercely than Chinese people because they rely less on Japan economy, and they are developed country. Am i right?

Let us put an end to this discussion.

Another question, with great power, comes great responsibilty, US has done a lot good deeds in the place of United Nation.

How can we do to help United Sate make a right decision?

What the future will the world be?

How to prevent the world war III?

How can China support the 1.3 billion people if following you American policy to alow peope bare more (actually, in China, for the parents both from the one-child family, they can have more children.)

Richard and Mingtian, you seams the learned peron, not like me. I only enjoy the haha Friends seris. I hope you can mail a copy to me if you have something enlightening.

Regards

December 3, 2006 @ 12:04 pm | Comment

“Personally, i repeat i give myself as an example. I hate some japanese, for they cast germ bombs in my hometown Changde. With some suppotive japanese lawyers, the war victims recently put up the appeal for compensation.
But the Japanese count rejected the appeal.”

What i mean is some Japanese lawyer and average Japanses people helped us a lot, not any satiric sense here.

December 3, 2006 @ 12:11 pm | Comment

Japan started the war because they were once week, at that time, the strong economy cannot help them much. They had to fight, they had to be nationalism and brainwashed to survive. (i think China would not do that, becaue most Chinese people is not brainwashed enough to fight for themsevles and the country unless someone fan the hate. young peope will go for it. The old man, lazy as me, will not buy it.)

Germany started the war because they are too pround. They think Germany is far great than other countries and races. They are willing to sacrisfice themselves to librate the benighted people. They regard themselves so superior that they are quite sure they can bring the europe into a unity.

Will China become Japan, and United States become Germany?

If you guys will start to quarrel again, i will hide and largh. Buddys, come on.

December 3, 2006 @ 12:28 pm | Comment

My girlfriend and I feel quite funny to see some of your guys saying we admires Hilter.

Not you – I was referring to the crazed posters over at China Daily. Unfortunately, that’s where many English-speaking people get their impressions of China. I hope you visited the thread I linked to.

Anyway, your “analysis” of why The Germans and the Japanese went to war is a bit, um, skimpy (economics and natural resources had as much to do with it as race and “pride”), and when you’re ready to explore these things on a deeper level, let me know.

You fix your eyes only on China

In case you haven’t noticed, 1.) this site deals to a large extent with China, and 2.) I fix my eyes equally on the US, which I criticize as much as i do China.

December 3, 2006 @ 12:43 pm | Comment

Richard:
———————————-
I promise my girlfriend this is my last comment.

I agree with what you said, but this is misunderstanding on what i was refering:
There are several shops selling Hiter stuff in China. But they are closed by administration and widely blamed by us average Chinese.

I just tried and failed to bring your attention to this concept:
Japanese government manipulates some media and scholars to deny the war in the late three or two years. Their prime ministers one after another visits the shrine. This is why some people like me, once forgived Japan, become hate Japan again.
Acturally, we propose to move the war criminals’ monument out of the Yasukuni shrine. If the shrine is pure to grieve over the dead japanese people. No one would protest.

Please kindly notice the extreme Japanese nationalism revive. Therefore, we renews our hatred. Can hatred buy every Chinese a house? No, so, not every Chinese are that go extreme, except those who are supported by their parents.

Plus, korean is much more crazy about this. But you are brainwashed by your media to blame Chinese alone. Considering this issue(i mean the overacted Chinese people, not others), not a word can i find here about the remains Japanese extreme nationalism and the much more crazy Korean anti-japanese. That is why i said you fix your eyes only on China.

If my father raped your mother, i smilingly said let’s befriend since it happened half century ago. Then, i turn around and declare:”have my farther ever did it? i highly doubt it.”What would you think?” Will you happily think this is long past? yes, you must or you will be regarded as the brainwashed.

Then, i give my skimpy “analysis” why Japanese keep their extreme nationalism. It is because they suffered a lot in the war, they feel pity for themselves much more than Chinese. And the nationalism is their nature to survive.

For the crazy young Chinese, they are more or less faned by the Internet rumors and what i am going through. Someone like the Lost Laowai, he think Mingtian, Pigsun, and I am plotted three. Similarly, we have many people here spread the alike rumors in the same way that Japan and some Chinese companies plotted to harm China’s interest. This adds the fuel.

It is as simple as that.

I now realize why the police-state China government close every means for us to hold a parade agains Japanese. Several forums are closed and the mutineers smashing japanese shops are arrested. The China government did not manipulate it or the samshing deeds will be spared like those happened in the days when American bombed the Chinese embassy in Yugoslavia.

Let every abled Chinese youth compete with Japan instead of the useless hate. Remeber, Japan is the second largest world economy !

December 3, 2006 @ 3:22 pm | Comment

Hope that wasn’t your last comment, even it’s not easy to wade through this mixture of twisted language, irrationality and own perceptions.

My experience with average chinese: mention Hitler and 9 out of ten will give a big thumbs up and openly admire him. They must see in him a kind of Mao, german version. This opinion is supported by a wide range of popular publications, just check the bookstores.

It is pretty sad to see that the China Daily provides a playground for those racist loonies, where they can spread their venom totally unchecked. Are they considered as contributing to a harmonious society?

The koreans’ side is covered by Marmot’s blog, go there if you want to know more.

And will you please stop to repeat the Yasukuni line again and again. This problem will be dealt with by japanese themselves, they are not all remote controlled right wing robots but have healthy free speech debates going on.

December 3, 2006 @ 5:03 pm | Comment

@Yan Jing:

“I believe some Japanese kept their extrem nationalism because of the Asian people lacking the sense of democracy. They were less developed”

Wow. Generalize much? Democracy and nationalism are not opposites, you know.

“There are several shops selling Hiter stuff in China. But they are closed by administration and widely blamed by us average Chinese.”

That wasn’t what Richard was referring to. What do you mean by Hitler stuff? What’s wrong with selling Hitler stuff?

“Japanese government manipulates some media and scholars to deny the war in the late three or two years. ”

No, it doesn’t. Some nationalists try to manipulate the government into spreading their views. This is what happens in a democracy. Japanese nationalists are a small but loud minority in the Japanese government, many of whom are elected. The Yasukuni Shrine is managed by a private group. The textbook was written by a private individual, and it was only used in something like 1-3% of Japanese schools, because local school boards choose textbooks. The overwhelming majority of Japanese schools use textbooks that refer to it as “The Nanjing Massacre” and describe it as a terrible thing. There are certainly Japanese leaders, like Koizumi, who sympathize with the nationalists. But he was not “the government”, nor was he “manipulating media and scholars”.

December 3, 2006 @ 9:34 pm | Comment

@Shenjingbinguan: Speaking of the Marmot, he posted about how Korea’s Truth commission decided Korean convicted war criminals were posthumously cleared of their convictions in the Tokyo Trials. In fact, it was found they suffered doubly, because it was the fault of the Japanese that they committed war crimes. In other words, they were found innocent because they were Korean. Which means if Japanese rightists can now overturn the Tokyo Trial rulings and say “but the Koreans already said the Trials were BS!”

That’s like Poland clearing Polish Auschwitz guards because “the Germans made them do it”.

December 3, 2006 @ 9:43 pm | Comment

Stop confusing the argument with facts, Dave.

December 3, 2006 @ 10:20 pm | Comment

The Chinese admires the powerful man. My brother once told me to learn from Hilter because he succesfully train himself from a shy boy to a good elocutionist. I admit there once many books about them were on sale in the bookstore along with porn magzine.

But i believe less Chinese would admire Hideki Tojo because they were hurt more from Hideki Tojo than Hilter.

With the healthy free speech debates going on, the monument of Hideki Tojo will possibly still establish in the shrine. I am joking here to say some Chinese decide to establish a shrine for Hitler here or Germany in the Japanese style to demostrate the Japanese democracy.

I will be very glad and forgive Japan for ever if they can act like what Germany does after the war.
I give you the following entry in Chinese:
http://auto.qq.com/a/20040318/000034.htm
http://tech.qq.com/a/20060803/000140.htm
http://tech.qq.com/a/20060803/000140.htm
You can ask Shen-jing-bing-uan, i boldly guess he can read Chinese.

Why Chinese hate Japanese, please read this:
http://news.xinhuanet.com/comments/2005-06/17/content_3091978.htm

You who also suffered from Japan has forgiven them despite all they are doing today. But why not we Chinese forgiven them?

I am completely catch what you mean here. Let’s get it over and end this entry here.

davesgonechina, you words can help ease the tension, you can repeat that to more angry Chinese.

I leave my mailbox here if you have any thing to check. I would be very glad to help you verify the facts or news in China:
yj2001cs@163.com

December 3, 2006 @ 10:59 pm | Comment

Richard,

I don’t understand why propagandists are allowed to swamp this forum with emotional racist rants. There is no argument here because these CCP apologists are not prepared to listen to alternative points of views and address issues in a rational manner. All they are doing is to repeat the same basely accusations again and again.

This latest post by Yan Jing is absolutely ridiculous. He kept saying that he is not brainwashed. And then he quoted from official Xinhua propaganda to explain why Chinese people hate Japanese. He didn’t even bother to consult an independent source. And honestly, what is the point of discussing or argument with people like that?

Richard, this is my last comment for this thread because I know the more I say the more chances I’m giving the propagandist to defend their position. So enough is enough and I’m out of here.

I sincerely and honestly think that we’ve given our “Chinese readers” more than enough blog space to express their point of view. This thread has been completely and utterly manipulated with no regard to the intention of the original posting. I think that it’s about time we put a stop to this before we get completely swamped.

December 3, 2006 @ 11:54 pm | Comment

@Yan Jing: Those links are about guys collecting Nazi memorabilla. Lots of people interested in World War II history collect Nazi memorabilla who aren’t Nazis themselves. In fact, the second article you linked has Chinese collectors explicitly saying that’s what they are interested in. If the Chinese government is closing down shops for historical memorabilla, then that’s actually just another example of the Chinese government wanting to decide what Chinese people know or don’t know about history.

December 4, 2006 @ 12:01 am | Comment

“However, Chinese government manipulations aside, how do you explain the negative feelings that many overseas Chinese and non-Chinese (eg., Koreans) have toward Japan?”

Haha, I notice you said “non-Chinese”, when really you mean Koreans. Chinese and Koreans are conspicuous by their dislike for Japan in Asia – other countries get along fine with it.

http://tinyurl.com/y64oto
http://tinyurl.com/y8ml5v

The question shouldn’t be “how do you explain the negative feelings that many overseas Chinese and non-Chinese have toward Japan?”, it should be “how do you explain the positive feelings felt by so many non-Chinese and non-Koreans towards Japan?”.

December 4, 2006 @ 1:28 am | Comment

1) If you say Chinese’ hatred towards Japan is because China’s gov’t is a dictatorship and it controls public opinion. Then how do you explain Koreans’ (stronger) hatred towards Japan? Are you admitting that Korean gov’t is also a dictatorship and also controls public opinion (and controls it more, as Koreans hate Japanese even more?)

2) I hate Japan because I am Chinese. If I were American, or French, or Spanish, or Argentine, then of course I have no reason to hate them. Because never massacred my country and my cities and then deny it.

December 4, 2006 @ 3:05 am | Comment

“If you say Chinese’ hatred towards Japan is because China’s gov’t is a dictatorship and it controls public opinion. Then how do you explain Koreans’ (stronger) hatred towards Japan?”

What facts do you base that on? The first link I supplied shows THE OPPOSITE. What credible polls do you have to contradict that?

December 4, 2006 @ 3:39 am | Comment

My dear young Chinese perons, stop wasting time arguring here. This debate is carrying on everyday everywhere with no conclusion.

You can find the trival events to base your statement.

But i can tell they can find much huge bomb to denounce refute you.

They can say CCP munipulate the anti-japanese to win time to become stronger to beat down the Jiang Jieshi in 1940s.

CCP are not munipulating now because they are afraid the anti-japanese mood would backfire.

Stop the useless dispute. It is Monday, let us go to work or study to make a better China. Those laugh at China will not help China even they stoping laugh, like they treat Russia.
You young Chinese youth prating here is no difference with them.

December 4, 2006 @ 8:38 am | Comment

Fat Cat, for me this thread died a day or two ago, but if people want to keep arguing I’ll let them, at least for now. No one with a critical mind could read it to the end without realizing how weak and fact-free the arguments of certain commenters here are. I try not to close threads until they become utterly uncontrollable and break down into obscenity and chaos. While this thread has come close to these criteria at times, I don’t think it’s there yet, thanks to some excellent comments from Dave and you and others that hold a mirror up to the idiocies of the likes of pigsun.

December 4, 2006 @ 8:47 am | Comment

Appreciate your respect for freedom of speech, Richard. Don’t you usually close down threads when they reach 100? We’re now at 85. hint, hint…:)

December 4, 2006 @ 9:19 am | Comment

OK, I’ll do my “part” to convince Richard to close down this thread:

(clearing throat, putting on makeup, going on stage):

“You America! Why you America always hegemony on the human right? Maybe you think OJ Simpson is human right? You think OJ Simpson is race? How you can talk on Japan when you so much race? You can go to Jew, Jew is always on the world order. If white come in Iraq it can be like war. Stop talking so much, you can mistake correction!”

….shall I go on? Or have I convinced you to close the thread? 😉

December 4, 2006 @ 10:21 am | Comment

Did not come back to this blog until now, I was busy living a life.

Mingtian , I do not grovel but you would not understand if some one actually have a balanced view point.

The Americans, Australians and etc do have some points here when they comment of your anger towards the Japanese but they do not and sometimes cannot understand our feelings here when we see the see images. How could they when they have never suffered as a race as we have? They treat all these as CCP propaganda in one sweep and not being more open to really emphatise but that is them. I can not pretend to understand how the Jews have suffered in their history even before Hitler

I am free from the CCP propaganda and in fact I load what the CCP has allowed some of the poorer pai shing men to robbed of their land. The naked use of raw power that Mao and his henchmen had inflicted on millions of Chinese. These have not escape me. That China is still a dictatorship where the poor and disenfranchised does not have a proper voice from the party that claims to represent them. These are the ills China has and needs to be addressed but is not relevant to what is being discussed here.

But Richard and the the likes here seems to brush aside what we feel on this particular issue as mere lack of rationale thought and looking at facts does not contribute to the balance that he so assumes he has.

A)From what I have read and talked to people who had visited Korea ,the Koreans still do hate the Japanese for their occupation of Korea and the way they went about it. This is fact but it is also the past and you would ask why the Koreans have not move on from there despite decades have passed since then? I am not an expert in Korea some of the commentors here would like to enlighten us.

B)The simmering feeling of hurt still does not fully heal in the older generations of Chinese and even Malays in these parts of the world. One person of about 75 years old that I know would never buy a Japanese car no matter how good it represents as value. But as nations here we have moved on and we are friends to a lot of Japanese who live, work and invest here. We enjoy Japanese culture to a significant extend. Even so some of the older leaders here who remembers is seeing some parts of Japanese rightist nationalism resurfacing and gaining a stronger foothold in Japanese political life and find it disturbing. The visits to the Yakusone Shrine by the Japanese leaders seems to be trivialised here especially by Richard(although he does note that is is not the thing to do for nation to come to terms of it’s past.) For us the visits carries with it a greater significance that Richard and the other commentators fail to realise as non Asians. He is effectively representing Japan(he claims it to be visiting on a personal capacity but as the standing leader very few things are done are of personal capacity in nature) honoring those who had committed horrendous acts of atrocities towards people of other nations( I am sure some Aussies, New Zealanders and English who have actually suffered under the Japanese have more to say about this. They the Japanese have not move on on this subject and until they do it is very difficult for others to fully trust what happens in Nanjing will not be repeated under similar circumstances.

We can forgive but it may be dangerous to forget.

December 4, 2006 @ 10:30 am | Comment

I loath my English sometimes as a correction

December 4, 2006 @ 10:33 am | Comment

Flabbergasted wrote:

“The Americans, Australians and etc do have some points here when they comment of your anger towards the Japanese but they do not and sometimes cannot understand our feelings here when we see the see images. How could they when they have never suffered as a race as we have?”

Absolute rot. Over ten percent of Americans are Black. Don’t tell us that they never “suffered as a race.” Millions of Americans are Jewish. Don’t tell us that they never suffered as a race.
Around 20 percent of Americans are descended from the Irish. Oh and then there are the Americans who descend from the poorest and most abused people of England. In fact, almost ALL Americans have inherited memories of “suffering as a race” – in fact, virtually all HUMANS have some inheritance of “suffering as a race.”

Good God.

December 4, 2006 @ 10:42 am | Comment

Flabbergasted,

I advise you to scroll back to my second comment for this thread to see an Australian perspective on the Japanese invasion in WWII.

It is a long post, so you couldn’t have missed it, unless you choose deliberately to ignore it.

Oh just in case you are too busy to look, I’m summarising it here for you: in Australia, we also remember the WWII atrocities and Australians’ sufferings under the Nazis and the Japanese. But we remember it so that we can reflect on our national identity. Hardship made us realise what makes us Australians: our sense of humour, our love for our fellow countrymen and, most importantly, about our willingness to move on from the experience to become better citizens of the world. We don’t remember the wartime atrocities so that we can harbour animosity against another nation and nurture a culture of hatred.

December 4, 2006 @ 11:09 am | Comment

But Richard and the the likes here seems to brush aside what we feel on this particular issue as mere lack of rationale thought and looking at facts does not contribute to the balance that he so assumes he has.

Totally wrong. I never brush aside the suffering. Again, back to the point of the post: The suffering is undeniable and real, just as real as that experienced by the Armenians under the Turks, the Jews (and many others) under the Nazis, etc., etc. The post is about the cheap exploitation of this suffering for a fast buck, and that you don’t see this continues to, um, flabbergast me.

Once and for all (though it won’t be, of course), get it through your heads: We are all shocked and appalled at what the Japanese did. Mao got over it, why can’t you? The current leadership rekindled it, and if you are unaware of how police in 2005 helped escort the young rioters before the government finally told them to stop due to bad press, then you are…well, unaware of how things really work. Yes, the suffering is real, yes, yes, I know. It was also 60 years ago, yet the last time I was in China it was still all over CCTV as if it were yesterday. We really do understand China and Korea and others who hate the Japanese. In China, however, the emotions that the horrible crime evokes are exploited and manipulated, resulting in amazing automaton-like
“thinking,” as we can all see over at the China Daily forums. Grieve for the sin the Japanese committed, feel the anguish and don’t forget. But direct your rage where it matters, and don’t allow it to turn you into a puppet. This is why I say it’s time to grow up. As long as you are reduced to wailing and self-pity, it appears to the world that the Chinese have some sort of inferiority complex causing them to ever play the role of victim. Yes, you WERE the victim in the massacre, and my family was also the victim of a massacre (and as Ivan correctly noted, so too were all of our families at some point in history), but clinging to the victimhood and allowing it to cloud your judgement and lead you to violence does you no good in the eyes of the world, whether you are Korean or Chinese. There comes a time to move on. Luckily for the CCP, they can always get the entire grief machine up and running at maximum volume at the snap of a finger simply by pointing to the shrine! Wake up, people. The shrine is just an emotional hot-button used to keep you in perpetual self-pity and rage. Everytime you go insane about it, the Japanese score points and China’s reputation suffers in the eyes of the world.

And I’m not saying you shouldn’t be angry about the shrine. I myself am. The visits should stop. And President Reagan shouldn’t have visited Bitburg cemetery, but he did. But you know what? We who were upset about Reagan’s visit got over it. There are larger things to deal with, things that mean more to us than these tempests in teacups, and if we surrender our critical faculties to them we simply become sheep in a restless and ignorant flock.

December 4, 2006 @ 11:20 am | Comment

And now, by popular demand, this thread closes. You can always bring it up in the Duckpond.

December 4, 2006 @ 11:22 am | Comment