However much we hope otherwise, they’re probably going to pull it off.

The problems wont go away though.

August 25, 2007 @ 6:39 pm | Comment

And the news at this end of China is that the increase in fee prices and the introduction of new fees, taxes, deposits and other cash transfers to the government are due to financial issues up north with the Olympics.

August 25, 2007 @ 7:33 pm | Comment

This is another powder keg I see them sitting on, ready to explode at the touch of a tiny cigarette ember. Nothing in this world is so explosive and potentially mindless and bestial as large crowds of Mainland Chinese who have persuaded themselves that they’ve been insulted or treated unfairly. Once they realise that the world sees them (and/or their government) as a pack of ignorant buffoons, all hell will break loose.

August 25, 2007 @ 7:48 pm | Comment

Clarification to my above: For the Chinese, it doesn’t matter whether they’re really being seen as buffoons. They’ll be looking for insults in places where none exist. Combine that with their exaggerated expectations of how this really very small event is going to glorify China, and you have a powder keg.

In other words, they’re just setting themselves up for disappointment, like fire poured upon their high-octane fuel of exaggerated expectations.

August 25, 2007 @ 8:22 pm | Comment

Can’t say i agree with neil – i hope the chinese pull it off and i don’t think any evidence of their inability to deal with pollution is a good sign for the world at large. if china can’t deal with its pollution we are pretty screwed.

i think that the attention will not help china as ivan points out. as more and more people start studying chinese they are going find out about the appalling attitudes of many in china. i know of very few foreigners who have spent significant amounts of time in china who don’t have mixed feelings about the place.

August 25, 2007 @ 10:24 pm | Comment

I hope they pull it off too. But I wish that “pulling it off” didn’t also include rounding up the handicapped and dark-skinned. Yeah, mixed feelings seems to be the predominant attitude of just about every expat here I know.

August 25, 2007 @ 10:30 pm | Comment

mixed feelings sums it up, really.

But, the thing that gets me is how little people outside of china actually know about what is going on there. None of my classmates had much knowledge of the issues, or even any real interest in finding out about them (and i was doing a masters degree in the social sciences, at a good university). And, i mean waht is happening in china is something that affects everything relating to our lives: the state of the economy, international relations and most crucially of all the future of the planet. But people just dont seem to see it.

That is why I am hoping that the Olympics put some of these issues on to the agenda, and hopefully in a more prodcutive way than scare stories about poisoned toothpaste. As much as I love and admire China (in some ways), the worst outcome would be the whitewashed “business as usual” lie that the ccp perpetrate.

And, just for the hell of it, I hope that Japan beat China in a couple of events.

August 26, 2007 @ 12:18 am | Comment

Comparing all instances of spectacle to ’36 Berlin or the North Korea mass games is pure hyperbole – what country doesn’t put their best face forward for the Olympics?

And that’s inevitably at the expense of getting an honest look at the nation. Australia shipped its homeless out of town, built facilities specifically for the Olympics, and…well, I’m not sure of the rest because the Olympics are actually really boring, but you see what I’m getting at. I don’t think China is doing anything that other nations haven’t. And Beijing is a really shitty city, they have more work to do than a Los Angeles or Barcelona.

Perhaps there’s an element of fascism inherent to the games?

August 26, 2007 @ 5:05 am | Comment

Of course they don’t expect you to believe all of China is like Beijing during the olympics, unless the visitor some kind of idiot. Oh wait.

All you have to do is look at the statistics, do a little math, and you’ll soon figure out millions of people are living in destitution. Or you can just read the sensationalist bs that is smeared all over Western “news sources” (which are about the caliber of CCTV or Mao Daily).

They’re just cleaning up for guests, obviously, why is EVERYTHING always a big conspiracy? Have some tinfoil hats made when you pass by the next sweatshop. I mean do you except India to toss feces all over their buildings in Hyderabad or Mumbai and fill the streets with starving people so they can accomodate gullible idiots? No. But the nazi-card isn’t pulled when India uses common sense.

“dark-skinned villagers”

And what is this crap? Who said dark-skinned people are banned? I think they just stuck that in their to play the race-card like American news sources like it.

“For the Chinese, it doesn’t matter whether they’re really being seen as buffoons. They’ll be looking for insults in places where none exist.”

Newsflash, all post-colonial nations are like that. Take a look at South Korea, the Philippines, or any African country.

August 26, 2007 @ 5:23 am | Comment

spelling/grammar: *there, *visitor is

August 26, 2007 @ 5:25 am | Comment

ferins, the reason it’s ok when India and let’s say, Canada prop up their image for a big international event, they arent exactly a wolf in sheeps clothing. Getting the homeless people out of sight is one thing, and some may say that is dishonest, cause it is, but to make sure their are no activist voices able to tell the world about the party’s crimes, shoving them in torture cells to keep them quite and restricting peoples media freedom so as to be percieved as legitimate, that is more that hiding your shortcomings, that is hiding your EVIL and ditto to what Neil was saying about China issues being important to the world, ferins theres a lot more behind the propaganda than a regular government trying to look good, why do you think the party is soooo scared that it takes so many measures to ensure that people think a certain way, going so far as to use torture and constant fallacy etc…Oh, I see, I guess you don’t see that aspect of the issue because the plan is unfolding as they have planned inside your brain AAHHHHH get it out!!

August 26, 2007 @ 6:26 am | Comment

Lets start by admitting you’re delusional and need to learn better sentence structure.

Most of the Chinese people I’ve talked to say they know about the problems going on, but then again they’re the ones crafty enough to squeeze by the firewall.

Would you rather China call all these people terrorists and send them to Guanta– err, Hainan and be done with it?

Of course they’d have to invade some random Muslim country to legitimize it.

If India had an olympics do you think they’d tolerate having bone-thin beggars telling visitors about how they sold their child for 40$ and their kidney for 400$ to survive?

Your assumption that everyone in China believes CCTV and that the party members believe no one knows about their problems is naive and childish.

You’ve been hanging around too many overweight foreign sex tourists who ride off Hollywood’s ridiculous agenda pushing for easy sex and easy political converts from their status as “exotic demigods”.

There’s so much hypocrisy and bs by the useless armchair hand-wringers on this site that it’s unbelievable. No thanks, I don’t trust Faux News or CCTV but I’d take the CCP and chinadaily.net over some post-modern imbeciles and Western propaganda machines.

August 26, 2007 @ 6:53 am | Comment

“All you have to do is look at the statistics, do a little math…”

I’ll look at the statistics but I’m not doing Math. I mean, I don’t even know him really. Dinner, some wine maybe some flowers and we’ll see.

August 26, 2007 @ 8:13 am | Comment

No thanks, I don’t trust Faux News or CCTV but I’d take the CCP and chinadaily.net over some post-modern imbeciles and Western propaganda machines.

Posted by: ferins at August 26, 2007 06:53 AM

Wow… the Duck has a concern troll. Well, your concern is noted and we encourage you to return to reading chinadaily and skipping the visit to this den of sex tourists. *snicker*

Thanks for the comedy so early in the morning.

August 26, 2007 @ 10:25 am | Comment

yeah, so who’s delusional? Sentence structure, you got me, but um sex tourists? You’ll take China daily? About India, you didnt read what I said before, India has problems but at least its not the government that sold his organs for 400 against his will and with no benefit to his family, oh yeah and then killed him… If you do some research you will find that there are a very large number of organ transplants starting at the year that the persecution against you know who started. The party has admitted that their vast supply comes from “executed prisoners” who are the prisoners? And are they tested medically and stored away to use when someone with the blood type comes calling? It would seem so. You can get a matching organ on demand in China, no waiting list, they have a supply of people living long enough for their type to be demanded… if you think I am making this up, well, I’m not. Even around here the F G are treated like people who dont exist and are not given any compassion nor attention to their cause… How can you talk about human rights without mentioning this group? Yeah maybe the party would be such and such if it werent persecuting those people like that but they are! They are and if you chose to ignore them it doesnt make it less a fact. How is it that people can just act as though its not happening and make so many excuses for the party while this is going on? Do people think they are lying? Well if theres even a chance they are telling the truth dont sit around and doubt it and talk about China in the case that its not happening, find out if it is.

August 26, 2007 @ 10:38 am | Comment

it doesn’t matter unless you get numbers. at most, according to ngo estimates, 11,000 people get executed a year in china.

so either china has a REALLY low murder rate or it’s not just FLG and political prisoners being axed.

sucks, but 17,000 people in the U.S die yearly because of murder.

“you to return to reading chinadaily and skipping the visit to this den of sex tourists. *snicker*”

No thanks, this site needs at least a couple valid opinions rather than worthless sex tourist parasite scum-of-the-earth hypocrites bitching about everything.

August 26, 2007 @ 10:45 am | Comment

Jeff: I don’t think China is doing anything that other nations haven’t.

I’m not sure if you’re in Beijing, but I think most people (those with their heads screwed on tightly, anyway) will tell you this is not your average preparation for an Olympic host. They’ve leveled much of the city and rebuilt it; they’ve instilled a religious zeal in their citizens regarding all aspects of the games that borders on fanatacism; they have lost their grip on reality (again), believing they can choreograph world opinion to make China appear to be a happy, shiny place. As I said in the post, all countries want to put their best face forward. The only ones that go to lengths like these have been Soviet Russia and Nazi Germany, at least to the best of my knowledge. Putting your best face forward does not mean arresting dissidents and putting up a nationwide facade, at least not to a mature and non-neurotic government. These three instances – the USSR, Nazi Germany and the PRC – are indeed unique because they were examples of governments about which much, even most of the world harbored serious doubts, and the games were used to validate them in the eye of the world. In the LA and Athens and Turin Olympics, they were just a sporting event: Italy didn’t need to convince the world they were a friend to all the world and insist until they were blue in the face that they are a great and happy nation. Most Americans were simply disinterested in the LA Olympics – big deal, two weeks of sports. There was no nationwide propaganda campaign, no billboards on every wall and Olympic logos plastered over every bus stop.

Having pride in being the host is wonderful. China and Beijing should be damned proud. But it’s simply self-defeating to try to create a vacuum where everything is antiseptic and all smiles when no self-respecting journalist or visitor is dumb enough to fall for it. Expats I know here are deeply cynical (serious understatement) about the government’s awkward attempts to build an unrealistic image of China using slogans and billboards, and by repressing those who might rob the illusion of some of its luster. It is an exercise in insecurity and it is not like any other Olympics in a very long time. I have visited two other cities the year before they hosted the games, and I can safely assure you there were no plans to arrest dissidents or remove the handicapped. None. This is unique to insecure and authoritarian countries. The closest I’ve seen to it in my own country has been Bush arresting people wearing anti-war t-shirts at his rallies, and strutting in front of huge props like the Mission Accomplished signs. I despise any attempt to stage-manage people’s emotions and minds through the use of smoke and mirrors, to blind them of what’s really going on and to instill memes that are built on sand (Mission accomplished! Friend to all the world! We are all happy here!)

Per some other comment up there, I was not comparing the Beijing Games to the North Korean rallies. I was simply saying attempts to show the world how happy and joyful everyone is using choreographed events doesn’t work and tends to backfire. Most think people watching those NK rallies, while perhaps being impressed by their incredible coordination and intricacy, walks away feeling more disturbed than won over to the idea that NK is a utopia.

August 26, 2007 @ 11:54 am | Comment

“the USSR, Nazi Germany and the PRC”

You forgot Chun Doo-hwan’s South Korea.

“Italy didn’t need to convince the world they were a friend to all the world and insist until they were blue in the face that they are a great and happy nation.”

What’s your point though? The world’s perceptions of these countries are different than the perceptions of China.

Richard, you’re a nice guy, but please don’t ever fucking compare China and Chinese people to Nazis again, especially since they let in tens of thousands of Jews from miles and miles away to live in China even as the IJA was butchering people by the millions.

The only thing that’s baffling is that Chinese people are so eager to show people who beat Chinese people to death, bomb Chinese restaurants, and send militia death squads after Chinese minorities their good side.

August 26, 2007 @ 12:20 pm | Comment

Ferins, never put words in my mouth like that again or you will be out of here. I never once compared China and its people to Nazis. I said China’s government is using the olympics in a manner similar to the way the USSR and Nazi Germany did. I also said George Bush was using props and slogans in a similar manner. If you inferred from this that I was comparing American people to Nazis, then you are either dense or playing games. Seriously Ferins, that is a very sore spot with me – accusations that I am comparing the Chinese to Nazis – and I won’t tolerate it. The Nazis were evil butchers. I never would say i want them to succeed, while I say all the time I want China to succeed. I have never compared the Chinese people to Nazis. Ever. Again, think with a bit of nuance. I do see the way Bush handled 911 as analogous to the Reichstag fire in some respects. In saying so, am I saying Bush is a Nazi, or that Americans or Nazis? Have I ever said or implied that the Chinese are anti-Semitic like the Nazis? Never. As I said, be very careful here.

By the way, you really show your true colors in your last sentence. Now we all know.

August 26, 2007 @ 12:32 pm | Comment

The difference between the CCP and Nazi Germany is that Nazi Germany basically ushered Hitler in with *popular support*, so there really isn’t a comparison to draw here at all.

Showing my true colors? You mean believing in basic human dignity and reciprocity? God forbid. Chinese people should focus more on self-improvement rather than ingratiating foreigners.

August 26, 2007 @ 12:45 pm | Comment

The accurate correlation is between the CCP and the Nazi party, believing that God and Heaven ordain a “master group” to rule by all means necessary. And the CCP is way ahead of the Nazis by about 10-20 million or so and still counting when you factor in organ harvesting, labor camps and forced abortions of Tibetan and Uyghur babies.

I really am planning to be in Beijing for the games, not to watch the games but to watch everything else.

“http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/08/25/asia/26china.php?page=1”

August 26, 2007 @ 12:55 pm | Comment

The only thing that’s baffling is that Chinese people are so eager to show people who beat Chinese people to death, bomb Chinese restaurants, and send militia death squads after Chinese minorities their good side.

So you see this as perfectly acceptable and rational thinking – saying that the people who are visiting for the Olympics are “people who beat Chinese people to death”? Do you really believe this – that those from outside China who visit China fit into this category? I presume your thinking is based on race or nationality: Europeans once beat Chinese people to death, ergo the Europeans who are now visiting China are also people who beat Chinese people to death. Maybe there’s some twisted reasoning here, but it eludes me. So do you believe China should instead show these people permanent hostility? That they are fools for treating the outsiders like human beings? Interesting.

Why are you going on about how Hitler’s rise to power differed from the CCP’s? No one compared the CCP’s rise to power to the Nazis. This is called thread highjacking. It also tells me that deep inside your heart you worry that the CCP is similar to the Nazis – this is your concern, and now you are projecting your concern onto others. This is why you are defensive on the subject, going into a defense about the CCP’s rise to power being different from the Nazis’, although no one ever said otherwise.

August 26, 2007 @ 12:57 pm | Comment

“and still counting when you factor in organ harvesting, labor camps and forced abortions of Tibetan and Uyghur babies.”

Oh yes, I’m sure they killed 30-60 million Tibetan and Uighur babies. Fucking retard. Are you seriously comparing the European theatre of World War 2, the butchering of 11 million people in death camps, and the murder of millions upon millions of Russian soldiers in 4 years to what the CCP has done?

You’re obviously fucking retarded, and you respresent the millions of reasons why America is a piece of shit.

August 26, 2007 @ 12:58 pm | Comment

Nanhe, I read that story you linked to earlier today, and it is an example of how the NY Times is still one of the world’s best newspapers, doing things we bloggers can never have the resources to do. Amazing article, and great slide show. My heart goes out to Hu Jintao in this instance, because there is no comfortable solution for him. Either way points to disaster, either for the health and well-being of China’s – and the world’s – people, or widespread civil unrest leading to a weakened government.

August 26, 2007 @ 1:03 pm | Comment

“Why are you going on about how Hitler’s rise to power differed from the CCP’s?”

What you’re saying is the CCP is comparable to the Nazi Party. It probably was 50 years ago, but in recent times it isn’t.

“That they are fools for treating the outsiders like human beings? Interesting.”

Nope. I’m commenting on how Chinese people always try to look good for the “international” “community”, which includes the Olympics. When no one bothers to present themselves decently to Chinese.

I’m not talking about Europeans only, I’m also talking about Malays and Indonesians, Russian skinheads, etc. All around the world Mainland Chinese people are treated like shit and yet they bend over backwards to try to please.

August 26, 2007 @ 1:03 pm | Comment

http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/08/25/asia/26china.php?page=1

Lets wring our hands and fear China some more.

August 26, 2007 @ 1:09 pm | Comment

This is what I just found by googling:

web-japan.org/factsheet/pdf/OLYMPICS.pdf

For Japan, the hosting of the Eighteenth Olympiad in October 1964 was a historical landmark event that signified the end of the postwar reconstruction period and underscored Japan’s high economic growth. During the five years leading up to 1964, preparations for the games literally transformed the face of Tokyo. Roads in the city and suburbs were widened. A huge Olympic Village sprang up in Yoyogi, and NHK built a new broadcast center nearby to cover the event. Total expenditures in preparation for the event were said to be the highest in Olympic history.

But perhaps the greatest showpiece project associated with the Olympics was the Shinkansen bullet train—billed as the world’s fastest—which began service between Tokyo and Osaka on October 1, nine days prior to the start of the Games.

Of course, China is set to outdo Japan and everybody else. But this is China – it is on another magnitude and is not for the weak of either mind or heart – just in case you do not know this already.

August 26, 2007 @ 1:10 pm | Comment

The only thing that’s baffling is that Chinese people are so eager to show people who beat Chinese people to death, bomb Chinese restaurants, and send militia death squads after Chinese minorities their good side.

Your words stand, no matter how you now try to spin them. Based on your latest comment, the Chinese should now treat Malays and Indonesians and certain Russians “like shit,” since that’s how they once treated the Chinese. Not the actual Malays or Indonesians who committed the offense, but all Malays and Indonesians merely because they are from the offenders’ country. That’s like Americans who decide they need to hate blacks because of a story they read about a rapist who was black. That’s the kind of crude racial thinking that leads to permanent strife and misery, like Serbia and Croatia, like Sunni and Shiite sections of Iraq. It’s all about revenge for the past and no forgiveness, and stereotyping all members of the race or country in question as “enemies.” You’d make a superb diplomat.

August 26, 2007 @ 1:11 pm | Comment

Thanks, Bryg, didn’t know about Japan in 1964. How many dissidents did they arrest?

August 26, 2007 @ 1:13 pm | Comment

Less straw man please. Refusing to be a pathetic sycophant does not equal treating people badly, but for people used to special treatment it sure seems like it.

August 26, 2007 @ 1:14 pm | Comment

“Thanks, Bryg, didn’t know about Japan in 1964. How many dissidents did they arrest?”

I think they had their fill of arresting dissidents for some years to come.

August 26, 2007 @ 1:15 pm | Comment

Thanks, Bryg, didn’t know about Japan in 1964. How many dissidents did they arrest?

How many western journalists were there to look for dissidents?

August 26, 2007 @ 1:17 pm | Comment

Nice way of weasling out of the hole you dug yourself into, ferins. Let me repeat it:

Your words stand, no matter how you now try to spin them. Based on your latest comment, the Chinese should now treat Malays and Indonesians and certain Russians “like shit,” since that’s how they once treated the Chinese. Not the actual Malays or Indonesians who committed the offense, but all Malays and Indonesians merely because they are from the offenders’ country. That’s like Americans who decide they need to hate blacks because of a story they read about a rapist who was black. That’s the kind of crude racial thinking that leads to permanent strife and misery, like Serbia and Croatia, like Sunni and Shiite sections of Iraq. It’s all about revenge for the past and no forgiveness, and stereotyping all members of the race or country in question as “enemies.” You’d make a superb diplomat.

And let me repeat for newcomers the words you wrote promoting my challenge.

The only thing that’s baffling is that Chinese people are so eager to show people who beat Chinese people to death, bomb Chinese restaurants, and send militia death squads after Chinese minorities their good side.

Every time I reply to a comment of yours, ferins, I am including a cut & paste of that sentence. As I said before, it tells readers everything they need to know about where you are coming from, and about the obsessive rage burning inside of you because you are Chinese and feel the Chinese were oppressed through the ages (which they were, like lots of other people including my own). Thanks so much for finally being totally honest with all of us. It took a long time, but at long last we’ve arrived.

August 26, 2007 @ 1:28 pm | Comment

Sorry, but there’s a lot in this article of Mr Terrill’s that has my bullshit detectors zinging. Still, credit where it’s due, his last three paragraphs are right on the money. But still:

“Banished from Beijing for the Olympics will be not only fractured English, but disabled people, Falun Gong practitioners, dark-skinned villagers newly arrived in the city, AIDS activists and other “troublemakers” who smudge the canvas of socialist harmony.”

Well, sure, activists and troublemakers will be conveniently disappeared (at least, Chinese ones will; not sure about foreign troublemakers), and I could almost believe that the disabled will be given free holidays somewhere far away- except that Beijing is going to have to host the Paralympics right after the Olympics, aren’t they? Isn’t that the usual practice? And dark-skinned people?! How the hell are they going to manage that?! ‘Dark’ skin has never been limited to farmers, and I don’t see how rural people should suddenly all be labelled ‘undesireable’. Still, I suppose they could just disappear everybody with a rural hukou, but a rural hukou does not necessarily equate to dark skin or low ‘quality’/suzhi or poverty or unsightliness. And anyway, although half that statement of his is blindingly obvious, it’s still a pretty hefty allegation and yet he offers no kind of backing for it, not even a hint at rumours passed on by well-connected sources.

“Mao vowed to plant rice in the dry north of China as well as the lush south, to prove the power of socialism. “We shall make the sun and moon change places,” he cried. None of this occurred.”

Uh, sorry buddy, but although the sun and moon changing places was obviously just a bit of political rhetoric, that “None of this occurred” is bollocks. I’ve seen a crop that looks suspiciously like rice growing in fields that look suspiciously like paddies in the lower-lying, wetter parts of Yanqing County (I’m no farmer, I could be wrong, but that’s what I saw). But there’s no need to trust me. Go to Panjin in Liaoning Province. Panjin’s three famous products are oil, river crabs, and rice. That’s right, rice. So actually rice does grow in the north. Fact checking would be a good idea.

“Still, citizens are asked to snitch, Mao-era style, on people who shame China with their shaky English.”

More ridiculous hyperbole. Oh, wait, I see big character posters with people’s names crossed through in red denouncing them for using the wrong tense, misplacing articles, and confusing ‘he’ and ‘she’! No, back in the real world, the city wants to clean up its English just like it wants to clean up its streets. Nothing sinister here, and no need to draw any childish connections to the past. Still, I’m not surprised, I saw journalists using the exact same tactic back during SARS.

“In fact, this city’s water is not safe to drink; the water for the athletes and tourists will be piped in from neighboring Hebei Province.”

Hasn’t Beijing been piping water in from Hebei- and even as far away as Shanxi in times of extreme need- for years now? Most of the Guanting Reservoir, in fact, is in Hebei with maybe only a third of it in Yanqing. And the city’s water is safe to drink- if you live at the treatment plant, of course. Or is Beijing now supposed to rip up and replace the entire network of pipes?

Yes, I know, I’m just picking out a few little details that are of no major importance to the article overall. Except that these details are included for a specific reason: To reinforce the impression of Evil China doing Evil Things to make itself look all shiny and sparkly and good. Well, no, it’s more like grossly exaggerating the picture to make us see China as this big, evil monster. But that’s what’s so frustrating: There’s no need for such ridiculous hyperbole, and even less need for ignorant journalists to start making shit up. The facts- good and bad, and there’s plenty of good to report, too- speak for themselves.

“No wonder Dai Qing, a journalist who was imprisoned after Tiananmen in 1989, says the only thing she believes in China’s press is the weather report.”

You know, I feel the same way about all media, Chinese, Western or otherwise. All media is propaganda, and this article is a perfect example.

I really hope China succeeds, but the way the Western media and activists are behaving, I just don’t think China can win here. Even if China suddenly bowed down and did everything they demand, they’d find some other stick to beat China with.

Yep, I think I’m going to spend August next year holed up in the countryside with those dark-skinned, poorly educated people… Fact is, they’re a lot more hospitable (and far more intelligent) than city folks, anyways, and my in-laws’ village will be an excellent place to escape all the Olympic bullshit.

I just wish the Western media would publish responsible, reasonable, rational reports…. Sorry for the alliteration. I’m just sick of all this childish, irrational hyperbole, first of all because there’s no need for it. Of course, China is the bogeyman of choice these days. There’s no point in having a free press if the press doesn’t use that freedom responsibly.

It’s going to be a really long year for me.

August 26, 2007 @ 1:40 pm | Comment

It’s true, I’m not in Beijing, I’m in Shanghai where most people I talk to are a little blase about the Olympics (if not as blase as I am).

But a few comments: first of all, ’68 Mexico did involve anti-dissident actions, have a look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tlatelolco_massacre (which involved charges of genocide). And police regularly spy on or infiltrate dissident groups before major events, even the NYPD got involved with the Republican convention I recall. Obviously China’s political repression is much more blunt: that’s China for you!

Secondly, rounding up dissidents and repressing Tibetans is just what the Chinese government does. It’s disingenuous to equate Chinese political repression to the Olympics.

And of course there’s a certain stigma to comparing anything to Nazi Germany, I’m sure you’ve heard of Godwin’s law. Unless you’re suggesting China is going to start a World War and kill off millions of minorities, why keep on bringing it up?

August 26, 2007 @ 1:55 pm | Comment

OT, but I call your attention to a long, comprehensive piece in the NYT about China’s environmental crisis and the political pressures which complicate its management.

A lot of quotes from Chinese officials, whose frustration is clearly evident.

August 26, 2007 @ 2:21 pm | Comment

Every time I reply to a comment of yours, ferins, I am including a cut & paste of that sentence. As I said before, it tells readers everything they need to know about where you are coming from, and about the obsessive rage burning inside of you because you are Chinese and feel the Chinese were oppressed through the ages (which they were, like lots of other people including my own). Thanks so much for finally being totally honest with all of us. It took a long time, but at long last we’ve arrived.

Spare me the psychoanalysis, Freud. I meant what I wrote. Foreigners don’t deserve special treatment. That’s irrelevant to the fact that the article is propaganda and horseshit like CCTV.

August 26, 2007 @ 2:29 pm | Comment

Chris, I think you need to read it more carefully. He never said Beijing was going to remove all dark-skinned people. He specifically referred to “dark-skinned villagers newly arrived in the city.” This means they’ll be picking up people who meet certain criteria at train and bus stations. This is something they can do easily and in fact do all the time. They did it in Hong Kong when I was there, stopping people at the exits of subway stations and checking their ID to see if they were II’s, and arresting them if they were. The basis for their stopping people was usually the kind of clothes they were wearing. I watched this with my own eyes more than once back in 2001.

About the water – Terrill never says they haven’t been piping in water from Hebei province before. He just says many visitors will be unaware that the water in Beijing is unpotable.

Maybe there’s some hyperbole in the “snitch” paragraph you cite but I am not sure. I have written here many times of documentd cases of Chinese people being arrested and imprisoned for many years, even decades, for advocating democracy or speaking out against the government. Some were turned in by government-paid snitches. So while Terrill may be hyping the issue – most Chinese people who talk to me about democracy or how much they dislike their government have not been arrested for it to my knowledge. But then again, they tend to say it quietly or in a private setting. I have never heard them say these things publicly. If they do talk like this in public at the Olympics, where secret police will inevitably aboud, I would not be surprised in the least to see them arrested.

Jeff, I pretty much think we see eye to eye on this – I condemn all oppression, whether it’s meted out by Republican, Mexican or Chinese governments. Oppression isn’t new and Chine isn’t the only oppressor. Since I am an American, and because I live in China, I tend to focus more on oppression in those two places.

August 26, 2007 @ 2:44 pm | Comment

Lisa, it must be a great article – three separate readers (including me) have offerd that link in this thread.

August 26, 2007 @ 2:49 pm | Comment

It is quite good, same with this one:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/08/weekinreview/08kahn.html?ex=1341547200&en=76b60ac74b07d320&ei=5088

About food regulation.

August 26, 2007 @ 3:08 pm | Comment

Oops. Sorry. I tend to skim when the insults start flying…

August 26, 2007 @ 3:35 pm | Comment

Lisa, this thread is relatively mild…

August 26, 2007 @ 3:44 pm | Comment

Once I hit the “sex tourists” comment, what can I say? MEGO.

Plus I’m still sick. My focus is not what it should be.

August 26, 2007 @ 3:52 pm | Comment

ha, take that, otherlisa’s braincells.

August 26, 2007 @ 5:10 pm | Comment

“Of course, China is set to outdo Japan…”

Forty-four years later; now that’s impressive! It’s also unsurprisingly and typically nationalistic, underlining Ivan’s and other’s concerns about the direction of the Games.

“…and about the obsessive rage burning inside of you because you are Chinese and feel the Chinese were oppressed through the ages”

Quite right, Richard. I identified the tell-tale chip-on-shoulder mentality of a party hack some time ago.

August 26, 2007 @ 7:15 pm | Comment

“Are you seriously comparing the European theatre of World War 2, the butchering of 11 million people in death camps, and the murder of millions upon millions of Russian soldiers in 4 years to what the CCP has done?”

One would, if one considered China’s level of moral development ever to have been as highly evolved as that of Europe. I consider the Nazis to have been worse than the Chinese Communists, because we should expect better things from the West. On the other hand, ferins and other CCP apologists seem to think being Chinese excuses a multitude of barbarities.

(Insert “deliberate provocation” emoticons here. Actually I have considerable respect for the traditional Chinese civilisation and moral development which the Communists destroyed – so why doesn’t ferins hold them to the same standard? If you really respect Chinese civilisation, then why are you making excuses and apologetics for how the Communists destroyed it?)

August 26, 2007 @ 7:35 pm | Comment

ferins:

China’s body count is around 50 million between the GLF and Mao’s death and the bodies keep piling up thanks to the PSB and local bosses. I never said that 30-60 million Tibetans and Uyghurs were killed by China, but I’m sure China wouldn’t mind of the populations of E. Turkistan and Tibet just up and vanished. For a short time you pretended to be KMT and now you are back to be a big commie hugging blood flag waver. At least you are now showing your real nature again.

Lisa and Richard: I don’t “feel” for Hu or Wen, when they came into office, they ignored the environmental problem, Pan Yue, international experts (with decades of experience) and the local riots until the last minute, when smog and dust enveloped Beijing every day. Now they are “serious”. Too late, China is dying.

Chris:
Is one of your part time jobs with Xinhua? Did you know that many of the “translators” for the foreign media in China in actuality wander off on their own and do interviews, take pictures and work with the foreign correspondents to write the stories. I know this from a few foreign journalists working for big name rags in China, because foreigners are often stopped on site by local authorities these days for fear that they are reporters.

On top of that, from a science standpoint you are in way over your head. Go read some science books before you start waving the “blood flag” and sing “big China”.

Lisa, check out my new blog 😉

August 27, 2007 @ 2:03 am | Comment

Ferins, how much do you get for each post you make from your CCP masters? Are you so pathetic that you cannot make an honest living otherwise?

To China, the Olympics will be the biggest show of massive masturbation, massive opium smoking the world has ever seen.

The Beijing Olympics will show the world the true ugly face of the Chinese. The world will realize what a joke China is, and how much of the economic growth and “5000 years of civilization”
has been a complete sham.

I will be the first here to say it, I do not wish the Beijing Olympic games to succeed. I wish it a massive failure. I cannot wait to see the faces of my Chinese coworkers next year, when the world sees what a shitty place China is, and what shitty people reside there.

August 27, 2007 @ 2:29 am | Comment

Oh, Nan, you didn’t call it that…sigh…

I do have some sympathy for Wen and Hu because they are in a nearly impossible situation, trying to ride the tiger of growth that keeps the masses working. The social harmony they seek to maintain is truly precarious, outside of the coasts and the economic zones.

But that sympathy is running low. China truly needs visionary leadership, and the rest of the world needs China to have this as well. I don’t understand the attitude that China is dying, and so what? Chinese pollution is a global problem, not just a local one. We’re all affected by it. So even if you can’t spare any empathy for China’s suffering billion plus people, you’re still breathing particulates from China’s pollution.

August 27, 2007 @ 4:39 am | Comment

@China Sucks

Maybe you’re just bitter about the propaganda harvest that the government will reap, but please don’t let that bitterness bleed over into hatred of the Chinese people.

@Ivan

How does one measure cultural superiority?

@NHYRC

Ad hominems do nothing to bolster your arguments.

Ultimately, it does nothing for the credibility of Western media in China if they continue being as biased as Chris mentioned. And given the paucity of good media that domestic Chinese have, such a cynicism, although legitimate, does much harm in creating a cosmopolitan and open Chinese mindset.

August 27, 2007 @ 4:49 am | Comment

“China’s body count is around 50 million between the GLF and Mao’s death and the bodies keep piling up thanks to the PSB and local bosses. I never said that 30-60 million”

Yes, you did. You compared the CCP to Nazi Germany. Germany killed 30 million people in a VERY short time. Look, there’s no harm in being accurate. Pollution deaths in China (750,000-1m a year) are a major humanitarian crisis. But it’s hardly rounding up Jews, Roma, homosexuals, Russians, Poles, etc into death camps or starting World War 3 with the neighbors.

“I don’t “feel” for Hu or Wen, when they came into office, they ignored the environmental problem”

It’s unclear what they’re really thinking. From what I gather, both of them don’t hold enough power over the rest of the CCP to be able to make sweeping changes like true dictators. It’s possible that they’re trying to consolidate power before making reforms, but that’s probably just wishful thinking on my part. But that’s why, if possible, I’d like to be able to differentiate between CCP members so I can know if there are any that are especially bad or if anyone’s decent.

“If you really respect Chinese civilisation, then why are you making excuses and apologetics for how the Communists destroyed it?)”

Nope. You all need to stop with straw man arguments, really, it doesn’t make you look intelligent. Neither Soviet or American influenced behavior is traditional Chinese; and America is the lesser of two evils. Well maybe not in recent times, but it was. Maoism is almost 100% anti-Chinese, in that it destroyed culture, suppressed Confucianism, bankrupted China’s morals, and most of all made it so sane economic activity and overseas commerce was nonexistent which was rare in China’s history.

It still doesn’t change the fact that comparisons of the CCP to Nazism is completely retarded. I’m thinking some kind of Hitler would have done a better job for the Chinese, even, but he’s still much more “evil”, whereas Mao was more criminally incompetent than evil.

“I will be the first here to say it, I do not wish the Beijing Olympic games to succeed. I wish it a massive failure. I cannot wait to see the faces of my Chinese coworkers next year, when the world sees what a shitty place China is, and what shitty people reside there.”

Personally, I could care less what “your world” sees, given that people like you are subhuman scum worthy of the most gruesome death.

August 27, 2007 @ 5:17 am | Comment

Actually, ferins, Mao was a big fan of Legalism and Shang Yang. If you look up accounts by Sima Qian, you will see some very interesting parallels between Mao and Shang Yang, including an attempt to break up families and clans and a system where everybody spied on each other.

Granted, history is written by the winners. But saying that Mao is “100% anti-Chinese” is simply not accurate. You could make plenty of valid comparisons to the first Emperor Qin as well.

Mao took an alien ideology, Marxism/Leninism, and “Sinicized” it. He was Chinese through and through. All of the roles he cast himself in were Chinese, not some Western model. You want a Westernized Chinese political figure, pick Sun Yatsen.

And calling people “subhuman scum worthy of the most gruesome death” ain’t exactly polishing your humanist credentials. I don’t understand why you undermine your own arguments with such absurd and extremist statements.

Just to be clear, of the recent comments made, I cast my lot with t-co, who I think makes a lot of sense here.

August 27, 2007 @ 5:27 am | Comment

“If you really respect Chinese civilisation, then why are you making excuses and apologetics for how the Communists destroyed it?”

First, no one is making excuses. But that’s still an anachronism. Recall, if you may, the fact that Norway was actively exterminating their Roma during the time period Mao was in power. So much for your “Western morality”. Can’t forget arms sales to opposing sides of warlord conflicts in Africa, refusing to give colonies independence, meddling with Mideast politics, etc. But I digress.

I don’t necessarily disagree with most of the worries expressed here, I just don’t like the lack of factual accuracy, hypocrisy, or the tone. But I guess I prefer strategic thinking and realism over idealistic, kill-the-dictator-and-implement-democracy-and-all-problems-will-be-solved-hallelujah thinking.

I agree with most of the things nanhe wants to see happen, but the things he says will piss most Mainland Chinese off. Anti-Americanism is a very, very good thing, but if they close themselves off to reform as an expression of Anti-Americanism then it’s a bad thing.

August 27, 2007 @ 5:29 am | Comment

“Granted, history is written by the winners. But saying that Mao is “100% anti-Chinese” is simply not accurate. You could make plenty of valid comparisons to the first Emperor Qin as well.”

I placed emphasis on what his rule did to Chinese people and the Chinese nation, but in terms of how he maintained power I’d agree. But that’s not as important as his legacy, which was nearly dissolving China by eroding all of the good legacies of Chinese civilization.

“ain’t exactly polishing your humanist credentials.”

I’ve long given up with obnoxious assholes, it might be a flaw of mine, but I still do care a lot about decent people.

August 27, 2007 @ 5:35 am | Comment

“Yes, you did. You compared the CCP to Nazi Germany. Germany killed 30 million people in a VERY short time. Look, there’s no harm in being accurate. Pollution deaths in China (750,000-1m a year) are a major humanitarian crisis. But it’s hardly rounding up Jews, Roma, homosexuals, Russians, Poles, etc into death camps or starting World War 3 with the neighbors.”

And Mao killed tens of millions in the GLF alone and knew it. China had to pay for its nuclear bomb somehow and exporting most of China’s food did it.
No, there is no harm in being accurate. The Nazi’s promoted the “master race” and the CCP promotes Chinese as “different” and therefore not wanting democracy as well as the “superiority” of Chinese culture.

Heil Hu!

August 27, 2007 @ 5:45 am | Comment

You see the way I see that is that it opens them up for attack since it can be easily proven that they aren’t “Chinese”. The reason why I support the concepts of Chinese language and Chinese culture and Chinese blood is because it gives leverage in improving China’s political and human rights situation.

Don’t get stupid though, there’s a big difference between the concepts of lebensborn and lebensraum and China’s anti-colonial nationalism (which again is more like South Korea’s). Trying to prevent the latter from becoming the former is something I’ve tried to do when I communicate with Chinese nationalists.

It’s gotten so bad that some of these kids are drawing from stormfront or white nationalism and there’s even a rash of insane anti-Semitism spreading. Which is disturbing to say the least. And I’ve seen them use quotes from this site as justification for “raging against the foreign assault”, so I’ve been investigating to see how deeply entrenched racist nationalism is in the development of Chinese nationalism.

August 27, 2007 @ 5:50 am | Comment

Any extreme nationalism is dangerous, IMO, and the Central Government is playing with fire in using that as a substitute for Communist ideology.

Just to be clear, I’d put American nationalism in the same dangerous category.

August 27, 2007 @ 6:01 am | Comment

You have to balance around what’s going to happen inevitably. If you give them something sane to work with it’s less likely you’ll have idiots turning to some kind of “nazism with chinese characteristics”.

August 27, 2007 @ 6:04 am | Comment

very good blog congratulations
regard from Catalonia Spain

August 27, 2007 @ 6:15 am | Comment

HA China sucks U R Funny, ha, I don’t know what it is but the way you talk is very funny. Anyway, I have hope for those people who are cool in China. Yu no, it’s not all Chinese who are crazy with anger and fear (brainwashing), a lot of Chinese people are sensible and want to live as regular people, who don’t need all the pomp and politics, who just want human dignity, period.

I don’t think anyone shold forget that. A war takes two sides willing to kill and fight. I will not be one of those sides. I will never be against all Chinese people, I only wanna try for a solution.

I see a really big problem here since I came, and that’s that people understand things based on some mental slant and faulty reasonning.

I just want to say that I am not at all racist. Before I learned about china a few years ago I never heard anything about Chinese except that they had small… I also heard that Asians want to be like Westerners and try to make their faces whiter and stuff and I thought that was dumb cause yu are who yu are.

I think Ferins, If you are confident and you are not inferior (as you think people treat Chinese) and you beleive in yourself, then like bury your hatchet and don’t care so much about what other people think of you,

I think Chinese people are known as hard workwers, resourcefeul, industrious… But since communism, do you really think the world should perceive you guys as virtuous in general? I mean all that repression, propaganda, stuff like that… People are bound to be negative about it…

Anyway, I think there are waaaaay more people who are not racist against Chinese (for whatever reason) than people who are. So forget about this stupid racism issue, if you want to prove Chinese people are great, loose the propaganda, make a genuine effort to respect nature, set free the “political and religious prisoners”, allow constructive criticism, and stop telling other countries to shut up about human righs abuses. When countries report on the CCps crimes its a good thing, if they dont like it they should stop being criminals.

August 27, 2007 @ 6:56 am | Comment

very good blog congratulations
regard from Catalonia Spain

Catalonia is a EU member wannabe, not a part of Spain.

August 27, 2007 @ 6:58 am | Comment

I think Chinese people are known as hard workwers, resourcefeul, industrious… But since communism, do you really think the world should perceive you guys as virtuous in general? I mean all that repression, propaganda, stuff like that… People are bound to be negative about it…

Actually, “people” were not really negative about the Chinese until they became something to reckon with. Before that, they were just funny, mysterious and exotic, sometimes an object of sympathy.

August 27, 2007 @ 7:08 am | Comment

Just to be clear, I’d put American nationalism in the same dangerous category. – otherlisa

I agree. Resorting to nationalism is a sign of declining of America. When you are world’s beacon of liberty and prosperity, you have proudness, which makes nationalism unnecessary.

August 27, 2007 @ 7:17 am | Comment

And Mao killed tens of millions in the GLF alone and knew it. – nhyrc

What do you mean? He wanted to kill “tens of millions”?

August 27, 2007 @ 7:21 am | Comment

It seems like “people” are not too keen on totalitarianism eh. Tianamen incident, jailing journalist an aids activists… “people like me” care not so much about reckoning with China as they do about the environment, the emerging of a totalitarian/biolent global influence/minipulator. I am Canadian and we often bring up the issue of fundamental freedoms, we feel we shpulb definitely allowed to practice the religion of our choice, we feel our government should not be corrupt, we feel that we shpuld not trample human rights for a quick economic gain. So for people like me who consider these things fundamental, we don’t welcome the CCP into the globalized world, but we have absolutely nothing against Chinese people.

August 27, 2007 @ 7:21 am | Comment

sorry about my bad spelling, oops

I just don’t get it, what do people have to gain by ignoring falun Gong? Richard maybe you can answer me, I know Lisa couldn’t.

http://www.theconservativevoice.com/article/27511.html

by John Kusumi
Of U.S. Network Anchormen and Squid
August 26, 2007 01:56 PM EST

“America’s network anchormen are squid, who can’t pronounce ‘Falun Gong’.” Need
I say more? Keen observers will have the background knowledge to agree with me,
that U.S. network anchormen “resemble that remark.” In addition to resembling
that remark, they may also resent that remark. Hence I must explain it for
those who need introduction to its background, and — for network anchormen who
become defensive or hacked off about it — I must sound apologetic or soften
the blow.

Really, I am the last one whom U.S. journalists should turn to for sympathy. I
am the author of a book manuscript — ‘Genocidal Correctness’ — that when
published will review the approach of U.S. journalists during a very dark time
of U.S. history: that of political correctness, or PC-ness. It will in essence
ream a new orifice for the U.S. journalism profession, along with the U.S.
politics profession. At the same time that U.S. politics has become a sheer
farce, I conclude that we in America have lost our news media — to corruption.

A case study about the Chinese pro-democracy movement, U.S.-China policy, and
the Falun Gong crackdown in China has become a vehicle with which to explore
the decline of the U.S. politics and journalism professions. Besides the
‘GC-ness’ book, I have another project titled, “Nationhood, the DVD.” Through
exploring U.S. trade policy, I conclude that globalization is b.s., and that we
in America have lost our nationhood. Does the word “America” still identify a
group of people? Yes. However, the group is dysfunctional as a nation. America
is challenged at its borders; at its all-but-forgotten economic boundaries; in
its national security; and, by the appearance that America is too busy
dismantling itself to defend its integrity as a nation and its respectability.

Did my study of Falun Gong teach me all of this? Not entirely — two more good
inputs are a study of trade deficits, and of the economic development of
civilization. I am convinced that the input narratives, plus the analysis
narratives, lead with intellectual rigor to the foregoing conclusion
narratives. When I release “Genocidal Correctness, the book” and “Nationhood,
the DVD,” they will be solid, not sketchy. Someone such as Mr. Spock (the
fictional half-Vulcan character on the original Star Trek TV series) will be
able to kick the tires and to pronounce the reasoning to be logical.

On August 18, 2007, I took in the TV show, Fox News Watch. There, I learned
that NBC’s anchorman, Brian Williams, recently appeared on Sesame Street (a
children’s educational TV series). They played the clip, in which Mr. Williams
was very concerned to identify squid for the watchful audience of children. I
believe that he signed off by saying, “Good night and good squid.” Hence, I
learned that Brian Williams is able to pronounce the term “squid.” I also
learned that CNN’s Anderson Cooper will follow down that trail, and will make
his own appearance on Sesame Street in the near future.

Sesame Street is a place to get jazzed about things like “the number 9,” “the
letter M,” and “squid.” I wonder what term Anderson Cooper will pronounce?
–Whatever term that is, I can predict that it won’t be “Falun Gong.” For those
who need the backgrounder — such as viewers of Brian Williams and Anderson
Cooper — let me say that Falun Gong is a spiritual group and practice that
arose in China in 1992. It is a variant of traditional Chinese qi gong.
Strictly translated, that means life force cultivation. Loosely translated, it
means morning exercises. The exercise regimen is not far removed from Tai Chi,
and just like Tai Chi, people used to do Falun Gong in the park every morning.
In China, that’s perfectly normal, and Falun Gong gained in popularity until
about 100 million people were adherents. Then came the crackdown — the
persecution that Williams and Cooper won’t tell you about.

Since 1999, the Chinese government has pursued a crackdown to eliminate this
group. Within China, it is a genocidal rampage, and a holocaust of persecution
that has been killing these people who became ensnared in the government’s
dragnet for Falun Gong practitioners. How deadly is this crackdown? –It is
hard to fathom that this crackdown is larger than the one at Tiananmen Square
in 1989. The China Support Network estimates that 3,001 people were killed in
that earlier crackdown; the death toll in Falun Gong persecution is indeed
larger, and continuing to rise.

Something is depraved about the craven indifference that U.S. networks have
shown to this group (and, by extension, to the Chinese people and to Asians in
general). Something is reprehensibly sociopathic about leaving a holocaust to
be “business as usual.” In U.S. newsrooms, they have done just that, and time
and again, they have consciously chosen to bury the story of the Falun Gong. Is
mine a strong term — “reprehensibly sociopathic”? Yes, and I am coining
another strong term — “genocidally correct.” The U.S. newsrooms have indeed
been “GC,” and through their omission they have arguably been tacit accessories
to genocide.

Of course, opprobrium should also go to the U.S. Executive Branch, where they
run a “GC” China policy that is akin to leaving the Jews in the gas chambers. I
realize that what is at hand is not entirely the fault of America’s network
anchormen. They might feel better if they know that I have also referred to
three recent U.S. Presidents as bent, craven, depraved, and as “wuss bunnies of
moral cowardice.” Beginning at the time of Tiananmen Square, they should have
called evil by its name. After Tiananmen Square, China’s bloodbath of human
rights abuse did not stop — it merely went indoors. That means the killing
went “out of camera range.” It has occurred in the prisons, in the labor camps,
and in the Laogai system that is to China what the gulags were to Soviet
Russia.

My point being that the killing did not stop, and China did not become better
on human rights. America is a place where an outfit can be sorry and saddening,
but then advertise itself as fair and balanced. American viewers of these “fair
and balanced” networks might have the impression that China solved its human
rights problem, because Jennings, Brokaw, and Rather stopped mentioning any
Chinese human rights problem. Today, Williams and Cooper follow in the
footsteps of Jennings, Brokaw, and Rather. I remain unaware of whether or not
they are able to pronounce the term “Falun Gong,” but I saw Brian Williams do a
good job with the term “squid.”

I could ask of these anchormen: Precisely what is “fair and balanced” about
entirely omitting the other narrative about China? Perhaps some media moguls
like Rupert Murdoch decreed that “China’s sh*t doesn’t smell, and keep with
that narrative.” However, that is so divorced from reality that it makes a
network sorry and saddening as they deliver pretend and make-believe news —
with a sanitized (read fake) view of China. Heck, if anchormen are now going
over to Sesame Street, I think they should stay there. Somehow, I relish the
thought of anchormen, popping their heads out of trash cans. If they don’t live
in a trash can, they’ve missed their calling!

Before we lose all sense of perspective, let me say that my criticism of
network managing editors is incidental to my criticism of the Chinese Communist
regime, and to my advocacy on behalf of the Chinese democracy movement.
(Chinese dissidents still exist — now with more strength than in the 1990s —
and they too were “cut out” by Jennings, Brokaw, and Rather.) I would value it
if America’s network anchormen would put the lie to my article’s opening. They
could apply this occasion to prove me wrong — or, I could simply be “right
again, as usual.”

I know that the anchormen can pronounce these terms: Chandra Levy, Jennifer
Wilbanks, Natalee Holloway, Anna Nicole Smith, Paris Hilton. In each case, they
have changed the format of their networks and gone “wall to wall” with coverage
of those young women. The summer of Chandra Levy was actually a summer of
protest against globalization. But the anchormen didn’t tell you that, and
neither did they tell you that the Falun Gong death toll was going up.

I am still making up my mind as to how I will conclude my book, “Genocidal
Correctness.” It may in fact be my conclusion that I call upon ABC, CBS, and
NBC to shut their news divisions. I haven’t quite decided yet. For now, I will
simply speak their language and say: Good night, and good squid.

____________________________________________________________

August 27, 2007 @ 7:26 am | Comment

So for people like me who consider these things fundamental, we don’t welcome the CCP into the globalized world, but we have absolutely nothing against Chinese people.

Last time I heard something like this was “Bethune is an internationalist sodier, although Canada is a capitalist country”.

August 27, 2007 @ 7:30 am | Comment

Who is this Brgyags, now? Catalonia is not a part of Spain? Is that a joke? Makes me ignore any other point you make.
Nanheyangrouchuan, if you read Mao: The Untold Story it’s quite shocking at how he practically gave food away to East Europe while his people starved. But I doubt all the rice in the world will allow one to finance a nuclear programme.
Ferins: You need to explain your comment that “Norway was actively exterminating their Roma during the time period Mao was in power”. What numbers are we talking about? How were they doing that? You mean they were doing this from 1949-76?
I only came on to tell you guys that the NYTimes today has two great articles about the pollution in China: “As China Roars, Pollution Reaches Deadly Extremes” and the sports section, “Beijing Air Raises Questions for Olympics.”

August 27, 2007 @ 7:33 am | Comment

Bethune was a communist, thats all I know about him, so, I dont get it…

Maybe your comment has something to do with canadians being half communist and half pro human dignity, yeah, thats true, so theyre half like me and half communists, but some of them care more about human rights than communist materialism…

August 27, 2007 @ 7:36 am | Comment

But the truth is that Bethune was just one of those vagabond kids consumed by dissipation and only a “capitalist” country can create somebody like him.

August 27, 2007 @ 7:39 am | Comment

“I think Ferins, If you are confident and you are not inferior (as you think people treat Chinese) and you beleive in yourself, then like bury your hatchet and don’t care so much about what other people think of you”

No, I won’t. I might have enough money but be satisfied with my life but I don’t tolerate anyone attacking people, especially Chinese people, who can’t fend for themselves.

” if you want to prove Chinese people are great, loose the propaganda, make a genuine effort to respect nature, set free the “political and religious prisoners”, allow constructive criticism, and stop telling other countries to shut up about human righs abuses.”

Tell that to America. There are people doing what they can to improve China despite the extreme difficulty, but America has pretty much always been a shithole that’s ruining the world and it will never get better until it declines. Stop saying childish, idealistic things like “loose (sic) the propaganda”. If I had the power to do it, I would do it. But I don’t, so I go by the means I can go by, which is money and words.

“Anyway, I think there are waaaaay more people who are not racist against Chinese (for whatever reason) than people who are.”

It’s not that simple. Very few people understanding anything beyond their retarded, hypocritical propaganda machines.

August 27, 2007 @ 7:40 am | Comment

snow, you don’t get it, really? If the CCP is evil, it is an evil integral to China.

August 27, 2007 @ 7:42 am | Comment

Snow, it’s not a question of ignoring FLG, rather it is questioning the value of the Epoch Times as a news source. I imagine Richard will have words to add to that.

I’m curious, Brgyags – do you see China as a “Communist” country today? Because I’d say the capitalist features vastly outnumber the Communist, at this point.

Perhaps China will create its own “vagabonds consumed by dissipation” from here on out…

August 27, 2007 @ 7:43 am | Comment

“You mean they were doing this from 1949-76?”

Actually, up until 1977. They were forcibly sterilizing their Roma. Now they’re more or less completely exterminated.

August 27, 2007 @ 7:44 am | Comment

Who is this Brgyags, now? Catalonia is not a part of Spain? Is that a joke? – Keir

Yes. It is. You need a sense of humor.

August 27, 2007 @ 7:44 am | Comment

gah grammar. *and have enough money

*understand things

August 27, 2007 @ 7:45 am | Comment

I’m curious, Brgyags – do you see China as a “Communist” country today? Because I’d say the capitalist features vastly outnumber the Communist, at this point. – otherlisa

August 27, 2007 @ 7:57 am | Comment

haHA keir, by the way, you stopped your blog for too long and now you have so many article to share, great!

Ferins, If you are true, then just tell it like it is and people will eventually understand, you dont need the anger, its bad for your health man. Im serious, if you think the Chinese people are treated poorly then become an activist on it and raise awareness where it is due.

But, it is hard to see your point when for one: No one I know gives any energy to being against Chinese people and two: if you are so concerned about the poor helpless Chinese, how come you always half defend the party who is the one who makes them into quivering pathetic drones who are allowed nothing but to machanically canive for greater wealth? Don’t you feel the CCP makes fools of the Chinese by making them so hostile towards so called enemies? the Tibetans dont tend to loose their cool, the Falun Gong dont want to torture the CCP in return,… So why not safeguard your own dignity and stop victimizing yourself.

by the way, whats a “vagabonds consumed by dissipation”? Is that like those commies in Paris that destroyed all the artwork? Anyway, dont know…

August 27, 2007 @ 8:01 am | Comment

by the way, whats a “vagabonds consumed by dissipation”? – snow

Do some reading about Henry Norman Bethune’s life.

August 27, 2007 @ 8:06 am | Comment

“how come you always half defend the party”

I don’t. I take a rational, non-childish, non-propagandistic, non-idealistic approach though. If you want to get rid of them what’s your plan to do it? Wish them away like Mugabe? This is why I hate far-left liberalism as much as far-right conservatism. All dreams, no action.

August 27, 2007 @ 8:27 am | Comment

This is why I hate far-left liberalism as much as far-right conservatism. – ferins

They are extremes of yin and yang within a universe called the Western culture. They always exist as a pair. No matter how different their ideologies are, they live on the same culture that pays deference to “principles”. China needs a reasonable dosage of that culture to build a society of true rule of law, but China should reject any ridiculous derivatives when such a culture goes amok, such as the current development of religious fundamentalism in the States.

August 27, 2007 @ 8:41 am | Comment

Snow, the problem is when you go on about the FLG at such lengths and with seeming randomness, and when you quote Epoch Times at length as a primary source, you both lose credibility and come across as trolling. Just a piece of free insight.

Ferins: The only thing that’s baffling is that Chinese people are so eager to show people who beat Chinese people to death, bomb Chinese restaurants, and send militia death squads after Chinese minorities their good side.

You can say that you “don’t tolerate anyone attacking people, especially Chinese people who can’t defend themselves,” yet your voice trembles with anger and resentment against entire nationalitites you perceive as China’s enemies and attackers. Not just those who in your eyes initiated the attacks, but their children and grandchildren, in tribal tradition. I just want to thank you again for revealing your true colors. Another Chinese male obsessed with indignities committed against the Chinese people more than half a century ago, who sees China’s outreach to the rest of the world as a bad thing and a sign of weakness, as those to whom China is reaching out humiliated China long ago.

Ferins: I take a rational, non-childish, non-propagandistic, non-idealistic approach

Ferins: The only thing that’s baffling is that Chinese people are so eager to show people who beat Chinese people to death, bomb Chinese restaurants, and send militia death squads after Chinese minorities their good side.

Sorry, you can’t have it both ways. You’ve exposed yourself, and you can never claim rationality and non-childishness again.

T-co, read my response to Chris. The article is not as biased as you want it to be. If you think it is, walk through it and tell us why.

Good to be back. Too bad the work week is about to begin.

August 27, 2007 @ 9:00 am | Comment

Not to mention Chicken’s Rights and Free Tibet.

August 27, 2007 @ 9:01 am | Comment

The only thing that’s baffling is that Chinese people are so eager to show people who beat Chinese people to death, bomb Chinese restaurants, and send militia death squads after Chinese minorities their good side.

Less straw man, more reading comprehension. There’s a difference between fair and equal treatment, than the grovelling, self-depreciating, suicidal behavior of some Chinese. The other side of this is the inferiority complex that makes 30-50 people crowd around you and attack you if you get into an argument about 2 yuan.

August 27, 2007 @ 9:04 am | Comment

I think all China needs is a healthy competitor for the government, they just need to demand some choice. If Chinese people built up the courage to suggest the right changes and told the party (in large numbers) that they needed positive changes or they would demand alternative choices for government, wouldn’t that be a start? For instance couldn’t the Chinese people say hey, we’re sick and tired of the central propaganda department, and we don’t want it cause you are supposed to represent the people but instead you brainwash us and manipulate us, you the party are supposed to be responsible to the people, the country….You know, peaceful demands, not like Tienanmen, something more civilized and sensible would please a lot more supporters… And if the answer to that is that it’s not possible cause we are too afraid of the punishment, well, that’s not acceptable, if the people are too afraid of the party to make any demands for improvements that affect all the Chinese people and the world then they should ask for help, do something so that the propaganda department is disabled…It may sound dreamy to you, but thats cause maybe you are too lazy and cowardly to realize it’s possible. Governments should have to respond to supply and demand and to scare everyone into not demanding different is against international law, so theres work to be done but it should be done. Bryags, the CCP is an arm of the dead Russian party and a dream of a spoiled German. In order for the party to seem legitimate it had to completely change and replace Chinese culture with the culture created by the party all sorts of rubbish to say the least, so I dont think the CCP is really “integral” to China ferins, whats your solution thats gonna work so well? Sounds to me like your solution is submission to the status quo and accepting the CCP as inevitable overloards NEVER!!!

August 27, 2007 @ 9:15 am | Comment

I think all China needs is a healthy competitor for the government

What is your idea of “healthy competition”? Like the DPP that ruined Taiwan? Or George Bush that ruined America? Or perhaps you’re looking for something like the Japanese LDP that has been in power for something like 60 years?

They should start with striking out the “Communist” part of their name and then making government more transparent so the people can know who they should tar and feather, leaving the moderate and realistic reformers behind.

Free elections are a farce. Rule of law, human rights, transparency, and impeachment powers are needed. But free elections, especially for high-level positions, are idiotic beyond belief. Probably the stupidest idea that anyone has ever come up with.

August 27, 2007 @ 9:18 am | Comment

Bryags, honest curiousity prompted by your use of “capitalist.”

August 27, 2007 @ 9:25 am | Comment

“China Sucks,” would you please do us all a favor and go away? You are really NOT welcome here. (Typo corrected.)

August 27, 2007 @ 9:51 am | Comment

1) Americans 2) Japanese 3) British 4) Canadians 5) West Europeans 6) Koreans 7) Singaporeans………. 254) Africans 255) Aliens 256) Chinese.

Then fuck off and go back to your country, idiot.

August 27, 2007 @ 10:01 am | Comment

t-co asked,

“@Ivan

How does one measure cultural superiority?”

1. “Cultural superiority” is your term, not mine.
I didn’t use it; your own weak imagination is attributing it to me because you can’t imagine anything more subtle than that.

2. In any case, not everything can be “measured”.

August 27, 2007 @ 10:39 am | Comment

“And I’ve seen them use quotes from this site as justification for “raging against the foreign assault”, so I’ve been investigating to see how deeply entrenched racist nationalism is in the development of Chinese nationalism.”

Indeed, Ferins. So what price China Sucks is no more than a CCP wolf in a western racists clothing? It would certainly make sense – the two of you working in tandem to discredit and deflect some of the real issues discussed here.

August 27, 2007 @ 11:48 am | Comment

yes, because we all know those are just figments of everyone’s imagination. why don’t you ask for an ip address?

what some have to say about you saying they’re “pretending to be western” is that you’re saying that “western racists” don’t exist, which only a true retard would believe.

Let’s look at the three posts in detail. The first one was written by someone with a western name and an IP address (Canada), the post itself was written in flawless English, except for the lack of capitalisations for “Chinese”, and the post calls for the killing of Chinese people over dogs.

It seems that as far as “Ivan” is concerned, nothing good or right can come from China or the Chinese people, and nothing bad or wrong can come from the Western world.

[Comment edited – URL to a site that slanders this site removed. Richard]

August 27, 2007 @ 12:13 pm | Comment

Richard, I may have overreacted, I am getting rather frustrated with Western media coverage of China. Sure, there is plenty of good journalism out there, but there’s still far too much shallow or absurdly overhyped junk, too.

“dark-skinned villagers newly arrived in the city.” Yeah, alright, caught me there.

About the water, sure he never says they haven’t been piping it in from Hebei for years already, but he does seem to imply that this is some new thing done specifically to supply the athletes and foreign tourists in fancy hotels. This is what he writes: “In fact, this city’s water is not safe to drink; the water for the athletes and tourists will be piped in from neighboring Hebei Province.” See what I mean?

About snitches, I would not for a second try to pretend that such behaviour does not happen. But he writes: “Still, citizens are asked to snitch, Mao-era style, on people who shame China with their shaky English.” Do you see my point? This isn’t democracy or AIDS in poor Henan villages or blind lawyers jailed on trumped up charges for opposing forced abortions. This is Beijing’s campaign to clean up Chinglish suddenly elevated to some kind of political campaign, as if restauranteurs with badly translated menus are being shipped off to labour camps. I don’t know about you, but I don’t see any logical connection between a Guoan Bu agent reporting someone for anti-government talk and somebody calling in a poorly translated sign. So yes, hyperbole.

August 27, 2007 @ 12:27 pm | Comment

oh, maybe if western media just weren’t so insecure, gosh, they wouldn’t have to do smear campaigns!

August 27, 2007 @ 12:50 pm | Comment

ferins, if I agree that Chris is right and the reporter didn’t give enough context about the drinking water and exaggerated about the snitching, there’s still plenty of truths in that article and I would not classify it as a smear job. And you still never responded to my questions way up in this thread. I’ll repeat it here.

Ferins: The only thing that’s baffling is that Chinese people are so eager to show people who beat Chinese people to death, bomb Chinese restaurants, and send militia death squads after Chinese minorities their good side.

So you see this as perfectly acceptable and rational thinking – saying that the people who are visiting for the Olympics are “people who beat Chinese people to death”? Do you really believe this – that those from outside China who visit China fit into this category? I presume your thinking is based on race or nationality: Europeans once beat Chinese people to death, ergo the Europeans who are now visiting China are also people who beat Chinese people to death. Maybe there’s some twisted reasoning here, but it eludes me. So do you believe China should instead show these people permanent hostility? That they are fools for treating the outsiders like human beings?

Still waiting.

(Oh, and Ferins, I’ll ease up and let this go if you take back your hare-brained assertion.)

August 27, 2007 @ 1:12 pm | Comment

Do you really believe this – that those from outside China who visit China fit into this category

I didn’t say all of them did. I said Chinese people treat foreigners and their countries better than foreigners treat Chinese people. Whether it’s in China or in said foreign countries. It was a side comment with some relation to the Olympics.

August 27, 2007 @ 4:05 pm | Comment

way, way too many comments to read through all of them. Not sure if anyone else mentioned it, but the one thing that caught my eye was about scrubbing the city of the handicapped. Hmm…And only a few weeks after the Olympics, Beijing will host the Paralympics, in which Chinese disabled people will most likely once again overwhelmingly dominate on the medal stand (in Athens they won 141, UK was closest with 94)…

Is this “cleaning” of the city really unique to China? In Chicago, the bums and beggars suddenly disappear whenever a big event (’96 Dem Convention, presidential/foreign dignitary visit, USOC inspection, etc) takes place…

Also, what is the point of “Olympic” articles that write about cities other than Beijing (or cities hosting Olympic events). Who wrote about Iowa’s farmers during the Atlanta Olympics?

August 27, 2007 @ 4:48 pm | Comment

“It seems that as far as “Ivan” is concerned, nothing good or right can come from China or the Chinese people, and nothing bad or wrong can come from the Western world.”

Why the hell is this in italics in ferins’ post, and why does it follow some incomprehensible twaddle about IP addresses?

I’m lost on this one. All I know is that Richard can see my IP address and he knows I use it consistently, he knows I’ve never posted under another moniker, and he knows my style of writing.

As for my believing “nothing but good can come out of the West”, that’s not worthy of a response
given my record of bashing every kind of Western stupidity under the sun. “Nothing good can come out of China or the Chinese people?” Again, I’ve often expressed my admiration for traditional Chinese civilisation – but Mao is one thing that “came out of China” like shit coming out of the country’s asshole. Every country excretes some shit; the tragedy of China is that China’s shit, the Chinese Communist Party’s still unresolved and unrepented of legacies of barbarianism and mass murder, is smeared all over the country to this day.

August 27, 2007 @ 6:23 pm | Comment

it was a quote from a blog that i referenced as an example.

August 27, 2007 @ 6:39 pm | Comment

b. cheng, I’ve never heard of Chicago arresting its dissidents before an event. Of course the city will clear drunks and bums off the street if the president or the mayor is going to speak there; most likely they’ll move them around the corner or to another part of town for a few hours. That’s a far cry from arresting dissidents. But some people are determined to find an “America does it, too” everytime China is criticized.

Ivan, Ferins is quoting from a slander piece written about you and my blog more than a year ago. It’s fine if someone wants to put up posts or an entire blog defaming me; freedom of speech and all that. I don’t have to provide a platform to advertise such a site in the comments of my own blog, howeverl

August 27, 2007 @ 6:49 pm | Comment

Richard, got it. Thanks for explaining that for me.

ferins, as they said over and over in one Monty Python episode (featuring, inter alia, someone being whipped), “Oh, you’re no fun anymore!”

(insert irony emoticon here)

August 27, 2007 @ 7:03 pm | Comment

“if I agree that Chris is right and the reporter didn’t give enough context about the drinking water and exaggerated about the snitching, there’s still plenty of truths in that article and I would not classify it as a smear job. ”

So the existence of plenty of the truths in that article is determined by whether Richard agreees that Chiris is right or not. hehe.

August 27, 2007 @ 10:39 pm | Comment

cc, all truths here on this blog are determined by me. That is the joy of owning and building a blog – you can make of it as you wish and say what you like and make whatever judgements you choose. Of course, you can also make a total ass of yourself and anywhere outside of your blog you may be laughed into the ground. But that’s part of the joy and sorrow of blogging. Here on your own blog you can always be right. Isn’t that neat?

August 27, 2007 @ 10:46 pm | Comment

“America does it, too” everytime China is criticized.

More like America does it worse. There’s a big difference, esp. considering America is rich and obese and is in more of a position to fix things.

That’s not my blog, btw, just one I googled. I don’t have a blog.

August 28, 2007 @ 8:26 am | Comment

Rich,

hey, look, I happen to see things differently. When did I source Epoch Times “at length” and when do I talk about Falun Gong “at length? I talk about the persecution of Falun Gong because it is in context here, since I thought you we all cared about China…

Anyway, my point about Falun Gong is that you can not take China as a country that is not engaged in a “mao era style” campaign against innocent people when it is.

When you look at China and speak about the government and such, it makes quite a difference whether they are harvesting organs for sale or not… And if you do the research you can find that theres no room to doubt… And when it comes to Falun Gong it seems like around here it’s a non issue which is off the wall bizarre for a blog supposedly about China. So that’s why I bring it up often because it seems the CCP is being taken out of its actual context and put into a context of being neither good nor bad and that is just totally unrealistic.

The prime example is that you think the Nazis are worse than the communists, you are really looking through rose colored glasses at China Richard.

August 28, 2007 @ 11:14 am | Comment

“mao era style” campaign against innocent people when it is.

numbers is everything. a handful of incidents does not make it comparable. it’d be like comparing guantanamo to the spanish inquisition, it’s just stupid.

you think the Nazis are worse than the communists

They are, you ignoramus. Nazi Germany killed 7.5 million a year, it’s far, far worse than the CCP.

August 28, 2007 @ 12:17 pm | Comment

The following article appears at http://www.theconservativevoice.com:

Communism Isn’t Finished Yet
Columnists
July 05, 2007 01:24 PM EST

A speech directed at political leaders of Western civilization, from the China
Support Network’s President, as delivered at the Victims of Communism Memorial,
Washington DC, on July 2, 2007

The following is a rally speech as delivered at the Victims of Communism
Memorial, Washington DC, on July 2, 2007–Let me say hello to all of the
friends of Chinese freedom and to onlookers in the general public.
Today’s speech is actually intended for George Bush, the U.S. President;
for Jacques Rogge, the International Olympic Committee President; and for the
U.S. news media, where they have a man called Mr. Managing Editor. They are my
intended audience, but you too are welcome to follow along and to see where my
speech is going.In light of what is happening in China these days, I could
simply call for the resignation of all three such gentlemen. Very clearly,
there is a situation: the Chinese freedom and democracy movement has
strengthened and gained sympathy for an Olympic boycott due to Communist
misbehavior in Beijing. It is especially sympathetic in light of the Falun Gong
crackdown, the Internet crackdown, the pre-Olympic crackdown, the organ
harvesting from prisoners of conscience, torture — and other atrocities. These
matters shock the conscience and affront our more civilized sensibilities.The
movement has well made the case against the continuation of China's
Communist ways. The CCP regime (as they have there) represents an ongoing
killing spree that is flatly unacceptable. And furthermore, this is a
life-and-death matter for those people who are being killed by Communist China
today.What if the United States had a President who was less derelict, or
should I say more responsible? As I said in a recent speech, he would challenge
China's welcome to continue its human rights abuses. If all of these
protestors can say, "Stop the killing," then why can't the U.S.
President say the same?It seems that a summary of U.S. China policy suggests,
"sacrifice everything for the longevity of Chairman Mao's
regime."What if a U.S. President was less friendly towards Maoism, or
should I say more friendly towards America? –If so, then that policy would not
be tenable. It would be seen for the orgy of selling out, and opportunistic
bottom feeding that it is. It is unbecoming of America to look the other way
about genocide, mass murder, and the systemic abuse of civilians.What if the
IOC had a President who was less derelict, or should I say more responsible?
Not only would he challenge China's welcome to continue abusing human
rights; he would also serve notice upon the CCP that their continued killing
spree — and support for another killing spree in Darfur — is a show stopper
for the Olympics. If the rest of us can say, "Stop the killing," then
why should the IOC have no shame and no conscience? Mr. Rogge, your Beijing
Olympics are already untenable politically. China holds the world’s
record in mass murder, and to host the Olympics is an undeserved reward for
crimes against humanity.It shocks the conscience all over again to contemplate
this move by the International Olympic Committee. The stench of these Olympics
is worse than excrement. They are not only comparable to the 1936 Olympics in
Hitler’s Nazi Germany; they are in fact worse than 1936. In ’36,
Hitler’s killing spree was ahead of him; there was no World War II body
count; those events were ahead of, not behind, the world.The Communist Chinese
make Hitler look like an amateur troublemaker, because they are holding the
world’s record for more killings inside China than occurred in World War
II around the globe! The body count behind us is already 80 million, and the
IOC could have contemplated this in advance of its site decision (a decision
which I suspect was bought-and-paid for).What if America had a news media that
was recognizable as such — an institution of news, rather than one of
gamesmanship as the corrupt flack for the corrupt? Well, then the American
people would be welcome to learn about the human rights abuses, slave labor,
religious persecution, wanton killing, mass murder, genocide, and organ
harvesting of Communist China. After they got wind of that, the pressure would
be on the U.S. President and the IOC President to take their feet off the desk
about a killing spree in progress — history’s worst humanitarian
disaster — and they themselves would want to stop the 2008 Olympics, a pending
public relations disaster.Someone should say to China that before you smile for
the camera, you should remove the spinach that is between your teeth. The CCP
is the spinach that is caught in the teeth of China. Discontinue Communism
first, before you go for Olympic amounts of world attention. In fact, I have a
saying for China: Freedom first, and Olympics second! This summer, there will
be a new Freedom First, Olympics Second coalition. China will have a loss of
face unless it becomes a free country before hosting the Olympics.But I
digress. What if American news was less corrupt, or should I say more
responsible? Instead of playing the game in Washington, an upright news media
might expose the game in Washington. Let me be specific about which game I
would have exposed. About 25% of humanity remains under Communism; but the game
in Washington is to declare victory and to put ones feet on the desk about
Communism.I am standing at this new Victims of Communism Memorial, about two
weeks after George Bush was here to dedicate the Memorial. Thanks for
dedicating the Memorial, but the George Bush speech of that day followed along
with the above game to a tee. By declaring victory over Communism, with all of
its depredations “in the past tense,” that means that it is no
longer seen as a problem so that, on this issue, the George Bush feet can
return to the George Bush desk. I see right through that game, Mr.
President!And so Mr. U.S. President, and Mr. IOC President, and Mr. Managing
Editor, I see that games are not just for stadiums. Yours are games with a
life-and-death issue; and, your games are delaying the rescue — of people
whose lives can be spared.How did China get to have a "welcome to continue
abusing human rights"? To retrace the free pass could take another speech,
implicating the elder President Bush and Bill Clinton. A shorter statement is
that it’s your puppy now. China's welcome is something that you
extend to it.Stop being tacit enablers of the killing. You are not accessories
before the fact, and you are not accessories after the fact. But, as tacit
enablers, punching the ticket of Communist China, it is arguably true that you
are “accessories during the fact.” Would Eastern civilization have
a better shot at freedom if Western civilization weren’t run by the
aforementioned tacit accessories to genocide, or should I say “if it were
run by more responsible people?”Your morals, scruples, values and ethics
are on display and will be recorded by history. Your house of cards is about to
collapse. Somebody here is going to blink, and it's not going to be the
Chinese democracy movement. Thank you for taking in my speech.

The full article can be read at:

(c)2005 The Conservative Voice. All rights reserved. Some portions (c)The
Associated Press.

August 28, 2007 @ 12:29 pm | Comment

Snow, I think we all know of the excesses of the CCP. Plastering more and more documentation into the comment threads, especially from that last “conservative voice” site does little to strengthen your argument but makes you appear just a wee bit obsessive. I appreciate your comments, but you definitely appear to be a man with a mission.

The CCP is about much more than its inexcusable behavior against the FLG. There are lots of bad things we can say about it, and some good things as well. To try to simplify it all and see them only through the FLG prism isn’t very useful, especially when so many of us have problems with the accusers, who have a track record of sensationalizing their plight and doing just about anything for media attention.

August 28, 2007 @ 1:04 pm | Comment

FLG stinks regardless of whether CCP is good or bad!

August 29, 2007 @ 8:06 am | Comment

All I did was post an article and you want to say I am obesessive? Anyway, I don’t want to start getting personal around here, or I would have left a long time ago of course…

Whats wrong with having a mission?

How about you try being persecuted for eight years and have people accuse you of eversensationalizing when you try all ways to stop this horrible thing. You go into those labour camps and tell those torture raped and brainwashed old ladies that you dont like the “accusors” because they oversansationalize. I just dont understand, and Im glad I dont i really really glad that your mentality to me is inconceivable.

cc, I dont want to get into a big thing about falun Gong in its beliefs except to say that to my knowledge they never did anything wrong according to any non CCP linked sources…And we all know the deal about those sources. So whether you believe in Buddha and stuff like that or not is just a matter of belief and its not much for debate…

August 29, 2007 @ 11:46 am | Comment

Richard is a amazing guy respected by most people with different view points. He is willing to look at things in China, good or bad, with an open mind. That sounds simple, but is actually very difficult to do. I probably disagree with him half of the time, but I find his view poins easy to understand. Maybe even math find him likable.

Snow, you say the same thing every time and focus on Chiese government’s crime on FLG all the time (we get it), which really gives people impression that you are obsessive. You are loossing instead of gaining support for your cause.

August 29, 2007 @ 2:21 pm | Comment

“cc, I dont want to get into a big thing about falun Gong in its beliefs except to say that to my knowledge they never did anything wrong according to any non CCP linked sources…And we all know the deal about those sources. So whether you believe in Buddha and stuff like that or not is just a matter of belief and its not much for debate…”

Never say never snow!

To my knowledge, which is slightly differet from yours regarding FLG. The group does not believe in Buddha. They believe in somebody who is now perhaps, who knows, reading this blog at his giant residence in the US. By the way, I have come across some accounts about FLG well before the cult was banned by CCP, in other words, FLG was still legal and porpular then! The accounts were received from sources other than governmental organisations.

On serveral occassions during 1990s, FLG organised mass encirclement of a number of media organisations (newspaper, TV), just like what they did afterwards with Zhongnanhai, becasuse some journalists/scientists had made some reports/comments about the potential danger of obsessive practising of Qigong/meditation (they made reference to the group), especially by youngsters.

Outcome: FLG won, some journalists were fired. The home of a scientist who wrote an article for a magzine had to be protected.

What happened afterwards is well known now. The Master thought they could put pressure on CCP. Well, Jiang was not fired this time. The Master fled. Nevertheless he ended up living a, perhaps, more comfortable life in the US, both spiritually and, better remember, financially.

Natually, you won’t consider this kind of behaviour wrong.

August 29, 2007 @ 7:30 pm | Comment

Heated arguments about the comparative virtues and vices of the CCP and FLG?….

…..ZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzz

(reawakening for a moment to mention: The CCP and FLG are kindred spirits, cut from the same cloth of the Tai Ping Rebellion.)

August 29, 2007 @ 8:20 pm | Comment

i don’t think I am acting obsessive because Falun Gong is a very important issue in China and also China related issues abroad…The reason why I talk about it here is because of that and that no one else here ever even mentions it. So maybe I seem obsessive or something cause I overreact ot the fact that everyone else skirts the issue altogether…

Anyway whoever said that they get what’s the deal about the Falun Gong and the CCP and all that must be some kind of all knowing being or something cause, if you check it out, we all seem to think some different kind of thing about it and believe diiferent sides to stories with untruths and truths all mixed up…

Anyway, i dont really blame anyone because there is so much propaganda spread by ignorant as well as scheming and corrupt sources, so no doubt most people absorb a lot of warped so-called information…

As for all sort’s of details of the zhongnanhai incident and the Tianjin newspaper thing, you got it wrong, the Falun Gong people were slandered by the paper so they went to speak up, they were beaten and so they went to Zhongnanhai to ask for the release of those beaten and detained from the newspaper incident. Thats what I heard. And I dont see anything wrong with not wanting your belief to be slandered newspapers controlled by the most media-controlling “super power”in the world.

Apparently Jiang was plotting to purge Falun Gong long before this incident and was using a lot of sources to frame and discredit them.

If you read their stuff they read, you will see what they believe. From there you can say, but if not, how can you say? See, you even say they don’t believe in Buddha, you say it like you know it, but if you look in the stuff they study, you will see that you are wrong, they do believe in Buddha, perfect example.

August 30, 2007 @ 11:21 am | Comment

Snow, you may not think you are acting obsessive, but as a friend I need to tell you that just about everyone reading this blog sees you as obsessed. I appreciate your comments, but again, the pasting of long entire articles about the FLG in thread after thread clearly tells readers you have an ax to grind (a polite way of saying you appear obsessed). That may not be the case, but that is the impression you leave. Just think about it.

August 30, 2007 @ 12:12 pm | Comment

Falun Gong is a very important issue in China

No, it’s not. It was stamped out, all for the better. FLG has nothing to offer China or humanity, neither does Christianity. Both are just incredibly corrupt, inane beliefs that complicate life ever further.

I feel sorry for those tortured (if these claims are true), but I also feel sorry for those being swindled and abused by cultists.

August 30, 2007 @ 1:55 pm | Comment

Snow,

I wonder where you got those accounts, from Epoch or Minghui net? The story you were told might be true, but very importantly, only partially.

Jiang’s conspiracy theory? I don’t even have to guess where you heard about it.

Why some GLG were arrested in the first place in Tianjin? Does that justify organising 10000 people surrounding the White House? You will be shot these days, hehe.

August 30, 2007 @ 3:30 pm | Comment

“I also feel sorry for those being swindled and abused by cultists”

No you don’t. Christianity isn’t a cult. On the other hand, the Communist Party are essentially a pagan cult, in the tradition of the Tai Ping superstition and the Boxer superstition for which the Communists express so much admiration.
China has been abused by the Communist Cult since 1949 – a destructive cult indeed, to the tune of 70 million murdered or starved to death through an enforced famine inspired by Maoist superstition.

August 30, 2007 @ 3:50 pm | Comment

“nothing to offer China or humanity, neither does Christianity”

If Christianity has nothing to offer China, then it might be true after all that the Chinese are an essentially inferior race, incapable of higher forms of civilisation. Christianity saved European civilisation to the height of the world and then its inspiration and its institutions raised European civilisation above all others in the world, where it remains today. But you’re saying there’s something essentially wrong with China, rendering it incapable of making any good use of Christianity’s wisdom or civilising influences.

Throughout the centuries of Europe’s rise, their icon was a man who refused political power when he could have seized it, who taught compassion and humility and lived by those principles. Throughout the past 58 years of China’s fall into the toilet of barbarianism, China’s icon has been a man who instructed the youth of China to torture and kill their teachers, destroy all ancient artwork, destroy all decent manners and behave like brute beasts. Unless and until China faces its past openly and repudiates Mao and Communism 100 percent, China will remain a cultural sewer, a barbarian country, and no amount of cheap socks or plastic key-chains made by their slave labour will change the fact that they remain a barbarian nation, thanks to Mao.

August 30, 2007 @ 4:02 pm | Comment

“Christianity saved European civilisation to the height of the world and then its inspiration and its institutions raised European civilisation above all others in the world, where it remains today.”

Ivan, did you just get a ring from George? Don’t forget bring a bible with the sword on your way of the crusade.

August 30, 2007 @ 6:08 pm | Comment

Ivan, I do want to believe that China has made vast strides since the days of madman Mao. I judge China today (not the government) by the quality of its people, and while many here may be out for a fast buck and remain careless about their environment, I know you can find many, many salt-of-the-earth people here, despite the sewer Mao made of their country not that long ago.

Agree with lots of your points about Christianity raising Europe and much of the West out of barbarianism and taking it to new heights of achievement. Unfortunately, the Church also committed so many sins against humanity over the centuries, it’s hard for me at times to appreciate its accomplishments. The roots of the Holocaust can be traced to medieval Christianity and the perception that, by refusing to convert and by appearing to have Christ’s blood on their hands, the Jews were an enemy, a parasite worthy of extermination. So much of the great art and institutions of the West rose out of Christianity – but isn’t it also true that the real catalyst was the Renaissance and the Enlightenment, both of which represented in effect a rejection of Church doctrine that invited people instead to do their own thinking?

Wow, sorry for veering way off topic.

August 30, 2007 @ 6:11 pm | Comment

No, asshole. I’m thinking of things like Chartres Cathedral and the great Medieval universities (still operating today, Oxford, Paris), and Bach’s church music, and the compassion and spiritual genius of St Francis of Assisi – all things of which George Bush and the vast majority of Chinese Communists are ignorant.

August 30, 2007 @ 6:12 pm | Comment

Oops, cross-posted with Richard. By “asshole” I was referring to the commenter named “cc”.

August 30, 2007 @ 6:13 pm | Comment

I must have hit your funny bone.

“and the compassion and spiritual genius of St Francis of Assisi – all things of which George Bush and the vast majority of Chinese Communists are ignorant.”

St. Francis must have taught you how to use the word “asshole”.

August 30, 2007 @ 7:09 pm | Comment

“St. Francis must have taught you how to use the word “asshole”.”

No, but he knew one when he saw one, and I’ve heard other Franciscans use that word when appropriate.

But hey, if you’re asking for my compassion for your asininity, then just ask and I won’t call you an asshole. I’m always compassionate and gentle toward the truly humble. All will be forgiven, and you will warrant compassion if – well – if you don’t act like an asshole. Step one is to admit you are one.

August 30, 2007 @ 7:36 pm | Comment

Ivan,

I give 5 out 10 for your performance at the moment. You need to demonstrate more of your compassionate Christian spirituality in order to get first class honours.

August 30, 2007 @ 7:48 pm | Comment

See above. Compassion and charity are for the humble, not for you.

You’re boring me now.

August 30, 2007 @ 8:02 pm | Comment

This is not good enough, Ivan.

August 30, 2007 @ 8:04 pm | Comment

HAHA, I inserted that bit about Christianity to twist Ivan’s chauvinist missionary arm a little, and it seemed to have worked too well.

You see, the problem with people with a missionary attitude, is that not unlike other two-faced, fork-tongued bloodsuckers, “great Europe” historically flooded colonial targets with a Bible in one hand, and a sword in the other. Yes, it’s about a man who turned down political power to show compassion and reason. It’s also about several more men tainting his good word after his death, to a degree that only a blinded zealot could miss.

You conveniently fail to mention that for every Francis of Assisi there was an Adolf Hitler, slave trades, genocide, religious persecution, homophobia, abuse of women and children, all that has continued to up to this day. You’re also conveniently forgetting, with the typical tunnel vision of a Bible thumping bigot, that Europe rode off the sweating backs of blacks on the land of American Indians. Not very Christian or civilized.

But now that I’ve confirmed, once again, how inane your perspective is I don’t think I can do anything more than ridicule you.

P.S, the rates for child rape, murder, incest, adultery, spousal abuse, etc are much higher among Christians than agnostics. But I suppose we have differing views on what constitutes “civilization”.

August 30, 2007 @ 9:21 pm | Comment

ferins,

Please don’t raise Ivan’s blood pressure further. He might burst into a holy inferno in a second.

August 30, 2007 @ 9:46 pm | Comment

I’m going to cry in my pillow all night.

August 30, 2007 @ 9:56 pm | Comment

Come to think of it, the team of cc and ferins are beginning to remind me of the French Knights in the castle in “Monty Python and the Holy Grail”, shouting things like:

“Your mother was a hamster and your father was an elderberry! HA! Take THAT! Or else we will TAUNT YOU AGAIN, you silly Enngggglish knnnn-IG-ITS!”

Now I’m traumatised.

August 30, 2007 @ 9:58 pm | Comment

A round of confession will heal you.

August 30, 2007 @ 10:01 pm | Comment

Now I’m traumatised.

It seems to me like you’ve had issues long before you started posting here.

Rebuffed Messiah Syndrome, not uncommon.

August 30, 2007 @ 10:03 pm | Comment

Yes ferins, I have issues. Sometimes my issues push me to the edge of homicidal mania.

I just thought you should know.

August 30, 2007 @ 11:12 pm | Comment

Cool, I’m full of incessant rage.

August 30, 2007 @ 11:16 pm | Comment

Now I have a good picture of Ferins – an adolescent full of incessant rage, raving around trying to provoke a fight. Make sure you have what it takes to play with Ivan, little boy. This kind of reminds me of my puppy, whose mind I don’t ever intend to fully understand.

August 30, 2007 @ 11:38 pm | Comment

I don’t ever intend to fully understand.

What’s new?

Make sure you have what it takes to play with Ivan

Well, I’ve been to Chartres, and I’ve read Shakespeare.

So if he brings them up a third time…

August 30, 2007 @ 11:43 pm | Comment

“I’ve read Shakespeare”

In one of those abridged classics in “Simple English” they sell in Mainland Chinese bookstores, no doubt.

August 30, 2007 @ 11:51 pm | Comment

Much better yet than the version made for paranoid hillbillies.

August 30, 2007 @ 11:54 pm | Comment

In reply to my statement about not intending to understand Ferins’ juvenile mindset, he said, “What’s new?”

Ferins, I’m not your mum. So relax, boy.

August 30, 2007 @ 11:57 pm | Comment

When you have no argument, refer to opposition as “boy”. How novel.

August 30, 2007 @ 11:59 pm | Comment

Gee wiz, …

Well ha ha ha I would have to definitely agree with cc (!) when he said that compassion for the humble is not good enough.

Thats why I don’t like religion actually, it seems that religion is an off-spin once (or several times) removed from the real meaning of what whoever it may be taught. Let’s take Jesus for example, he taught that you should be a good person, even if someone takes nearly all you have, you can still offer him something he might need, this is an example, a principle…

Jesus never said that his deciples should form religions and use those religions to replace the actual principles of His teachings.

Yvan, I don’t think Jesus would agree with you that cc of whoever has to first be humble before you should show compassion. That is a sure deviation. Even the biggest XXhole is not exempt from such a universal principle. Actually people who are very cynical seem to be the people who are suffering the most and need people to care about them and the world all the more.

I don’t think the deviated forms of religion hold to much principle in these modern times.

Of course I totally agree that the communist cult is totally evil and is a big lie based on the party hating mankind… If you compare Christianity to communism, Christianity is waaaaay better cause at least theres some elements of goodness and not just seeking pleasure at the expense of human dignity…

August 31, 2007 @ 12:58 am | Comment

I suppose in terms of death tolls, Stalin and Mao apparently have everyone beat. Except maybe Genghis Khan, if you count the spread of the black plague I suppose.

August 31, 2007 @ 1:32 am | Comment

@ snow,

I generally avoid engaging “snow”, because his FLG apologetics and boring articles just, well, bore me.
However, in fairness, he raised some worthwhile points here, meriting a response:

In brief, snow, you’re wrong about Christ’s way of universal compassion. Or rather you’re half wrong.
It’s true to say Christ taught that God’s mercy and compassion are available to anyone and everyone, including (potentially) Hitler and Mao.
But Christ never offered this unconditionally, and he didn’t refrain from expressing righteous indignation and anger against the arrogant and/or the hypocritical and/or (most importantly) liars.

(Gloss: Buddhism is very similar in this regard)

Christ called some of his dishonest opponents a “nest of vipers”, and the crime for which he was crucified was when he went on a rampage in the Temple, saying, “My Father’s house is a house of prayer, but you have turned it into a den of thieves!”

I don’t imagine for one moment that he would be any more “civil” to Chairman Mao if they met in person. Sometimes being “fair and balanced” means naming evil for what it is, for the SAKE of justice and fairness, especially fairness to the victims of evil and of lies.

August 31, 2007 @ 8:57 pm | Comment

Can I just interject to say that this section has now degenerated into name callings, and comparisons of Jesus Christ, Mao, and Hitler?

I’ve been reading this blog for some 3 years now, and have found the conversations enlightening – but c’mon guys – Ivan, ferins, you’re both better than this! just leave this schoolyard fight and move on to more adult conversation.

August 31, 2007 @ 9:35 pm | Comment

Laurie,

You’re a farty-pants!

August 31, 2007 @ 10:06 pm | Comment

Yvan,

I’m not criticising you as a person man, but since we’re talking about compassion and religion…

your tone in this thread is the perfect example of how Christianity has become over the years, an empty religion.

September 1, 2007 @ 8:04 am | Comment

by the way Ivan, What is it that you think the Falun Gong people would have to “appologize” for? You mentionned that you consider me an appologist, but what are you talking about? Do you actually believe the propaganda against them?

September 1, 2007 @ 8:15 am | Comment

snow, evidently you don’t know the meaning of the word “apologetics”. It doesn’t mean apologising for crimes or offenses; it means being a propagandist for an ideology, which you are for the FLG.

I despise how the CCP treat the FLG. However, I think the FLG are a whacko cult all the same, only I don’t agree with imprisoning and torturing them.
On the other hand, I object to the FLG torturing other people by boring them to death.

September 1, 2007 @ 7:45 pm | Comment

Yvan, can you site an instasnce where I have propagandized any ideology? I did say that you should be compassionate, but I would hardly call that propagandising. Besides I think propaganda is something about untruth…

I suppose you think Falun Gong is a wacko cult a)because you believe propaganda by CCP and CCP brainwashed or
b) you are told by your religious circle that anyone who isn’t a Cristian is bad

It just seems like everyones got something bad to say about falun Gong here but I don’t know why, honestly. What did they do so wrong to make people accept the persecution as call them names, I mean Chinese people, it’s obvious cause they are materialists who dont believe in Buddha and heaven, but if you believe in the supernormal Ivan, how come you see wacko, unless my a) or b) ?

September 2, 2007 @ 10:36 am | Comment

I am making my list of how many problems the Chinese will have when they host the Olympics. The list keeps getting longer…

It will be a huge blunder for them. A fiasco, really.

September 3, 2007 @ 1:14 am | Comment