“Wang said that changes were expected to be in place in time for the Olympics for the 20,000 foreign journalists planning to cover the Games. This is one of the ways the Olympics may promote progress in China.”

This is great news! Things are changing, improving. The age of innocence is coming top an end; pretty soon, before you know it, today’s American-European trained Chinese fresh grads will one day have perfected the royal / imperial dark art of orchestrating and conducting journalistic cover-up, whitewash, finger pointing, euphemism, sugar-coating, preemptive finger pointing, preemptive strikes, elaborate decoy propaganda and when all else fail, simply branding un-welcomed research & proofs as Conspiracy theories or carry out black op assassinations.
The New York Times, by Frank Rich, Sunday 08 May 2005: “As we commemorate the 10th anniversary of the Drudge Report and the second anniversary of the Jayson Blair scandal, […] and the government is embracing fake reporters and threatening to jail real ones. A Pew Research Center poll shows that Americans now trust the press less than every other major institution, from government to medicine to banks.

February 7, 2008 @ 4:25 pm | Comment

JFK, I notice you’ve posted a few different comments today – same IP address but different user names each time. What’s up?

February 7, 2008 @ 4:51 pm | Comment

I am using movies and a few blogs including yours to teach English. My more advanced students type their comments, we discuss, and post. We’ve just finished watching JFK. If this is not kosher, I apologize and will stick to this (group)name.

February 7, 2008 @ 5:16 pm | Comment

Better to stick to one name; I’ve had issues with people sock-puppeting (using multiple monikers to support their own arguments).

February 7, 2008 @ 5:19 pm | Comment

Ah, I see. OK.
Henceforth, JFK it is.
Thanks.

February 7, 2008 @ 5:40 pm | Comment

But they have always denied blocking the BBC News website.

Surely they aren’t telling porkies?

February 7, 2008 @ 9:25 pm | Comment

Good question, LL. By the way, bbc.co.uk has been unblocked for some time now, I believe.

February 7, 2008 @ 9:31 pm | Comment

http://www.bbc.co.uk has never been blocked.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news has been for at least ten years.

February 7, 2008 @ 9:36 pm | Comment

but they forgot to block the mirror at

http://newsvote.bbc.co.uk/

February 7, 2008 @ 9:40 pm | Comment

BBC Chinese has been blocked, and remains blocked… and I imagine will remain blocked. If their target is visitors, they can unblock most of the English language sites, because really, what’s so subversive about the BBC News in English?
However, BBC has a Chinese section, which I believe will remain blocked, along with boxun.com, epochtimes.com, rfa.org, etc.
It’s not progress, it’s more like “progress” to show to people who don’t read Chinese-language news.

February 7, 2008 @ 10:14 pm | Comment

LL,

Thanks for the link. I’ll be checking it now.

February 7, 2008 @ 11:31 pm | Comment

Dang, you know, I forget where I read this but somebody speculated that they were selling Playboy during the Olympics so that foreign athletes wouldn’t rage without easy access to nudity. Those of us outside China might wonder if only more sensuous and less politically sensitive might be available for a couple of weeks in August… After all, it is what the internet is for.

February 8, 2008 @ 8:30 am | Comment

“A Pew Research Center poll shows that Americans now trust the press less than every other major institution, from government to medicine to banks.”

Raises the question what is worse. A populace that mistrusts the media and thus doesn’t believe everything they are told in newspapers and on TV or one that doesn’t question what they read and see?

February 8, 2008 @ 11:47 am | Comment

@shulan – Good point.

Does anyone know if an online list is being maintained of sites blocked by the Chinese Government?

This might be curious… just knowing what they consider “subversive”.

February 8, 2008 @ 5:12 pm | Comment

Dijon,
I don’t think a list of sites would ever be possible since sites are blocked and unblocked for various and arbitrary reasons and whims.
That in a nutshell is the most insidious nature of Chinese censorship. I suspect that frequently trafficked get shutdown (youtube comes to mind) simply to discourage the Chinese from relying on the internet as a source of information.

February 8, 2008 @ 8:58 pm | Comment

Dijon,
I think that “one that doesn’t question what they read and see” is worse. For example I was amazed to listen to two people arguing about whose religion was the true religion a few years ago. I kept my mouth shut the whole time because I didn’t want to offend either one of them who seem to know their holy writs or scriptures or doctrines very well. Later I asked one of them what made her so sure she was right, and to my horror she said because I was brought up with it and my leader said so.
I read the newspaper for general information and watch the CCTV9 news to practice my listening skill. I recently watched a great movie called the Great Debaters with Denzel Washington and Forest Whitaker. I doubt I’ll ever be able to be as eloquent as them even in my mother tongue, but I guess a widen world view helps at least with critical thinking.

February 8, 2008 @ 9:28 pm | Comment

Who’s interested in reading crappy Western propaganda anyways? Their journalistic integrity (or the lack thereof) rivals China’s Ministry of Propaganda.

BBC News Chinese is the worst.

February 9, 2008 @ 3:27 am | Comment

Propaganda? Yes, I suppose criticising the Chinese government for China’s failures is propaganda – given there are no problems in China.

Yes, just propaganda.

February 9, 2008 @ 7:29 am | Comment

Straw man.

Criticizing Western propaganda does not imply there are no problems in China.

Western and Chinese propaganda are equally biased, the only difference being Western media has more of a “monopoly” over misinformation…After all, no one in the West reads Al-jezeera or South China Metropolitan.

Someone famous once said, “most enslaved are those who falsely believe themselves to be free”.

At least people in China are beginning to question what the authority force-feed them, whereas in the so-called “free world” the government and media plays the people like a flute and massacre millions in process, still people are content so long as they get to cast a useless ballet in some sham election once every four years.

Such a servile tendency would make the so-called “Communist” rulers of China giggle in their sleep.

February 9, 2008 @ 9:37 am | Comment

Where do these people come from? How do they all land over here?

February 9, 2008 @ 11:19 am | Comment

James Fallows just wrote an article on the subject. Very informative and balanced in my opinion. Here is the link:

http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200803/chinese-firewall

February 10, 2008 @ 4:10 am | Comment

“Where do these people come from? How do they all land over here?”

I’ve been asking myself the same question recently. Almost looks like a concerted action. Is it possible that certain people are commenting under more than one name?

February 10, 2008 @ 6:22 am | Comment

Where do they come from?

I guess thats the result of indoctrination 1.3 billion. It works. Sometimes I think even the people who know a bit about the CCP’s propaganda still dont know very much, least of all the Chinese masses like the ones who come here and say that the US is just as bad. That is just not true, but to argue with people who are hard wired by misinformation is so difficult, due, thats the idea, so I should try.

Jin, how can you say that Western media has a monopoly on misinformation? It seems Bush admin lied and wanted his lies to be true so he could justify what he was doing in Irak. There are other scandals where the Western media corroborates with corrupt industry and government for sure.

But you can’t compare this kind of scandal which happens to often I admit, to the systematic brainwashing and mind manipulationg that the communist party has been implementing vigourously and seriously for fifty years without a gap. Well the 1989 uprising marked a bit of a break in propaganda cause the masses were communicating on a more authentic level during that period… They would post their own opinions on banners and sign boards, so there was a breath of fresh air there for a moment which was squashed of course.

I would ask if people know the history of the CCP’s bloody and terrorist method of gaining ‘support’ from the people through thought control, violence, ‘education’, forced labour, silencing every voice but the party line etc.

First you should know these things…

February 10, 2008 @ 7:12 am | Comment

Si, I wasnt able to leave any comments over there.

This is the kind of article that matters.

http://tinyurl.com/2fdg6v

I wonder what people think. why the CCP wont let people know about certain stuff? What do you think they are thinking and what do you think is the effect?

February 10, 2008 @ 9:12 am | Comment

Yeah, every Chinese person who disagrees with you is “indoctrinated”. That strikes me as being very *racist*. But I can’t really blame you because it’s the way of thinking your government imbued in you ever since your childhood. It’s very hard to shake off the ideas that are repeatedly forced on you, especially when there are no opposing views to challenge that perspective.

I should know, I was brought up and “educated” in Canada.

As to the systematic brainwashing of the masses, the CCP has hell of a lot to learn from the West. It is failing miserably in indoctrinating the people as many already realize. On the other hand, the people in the West do not KNOW they are being systematically brainwashed, and you are the perfect example. Here’s a little secret, it’s not just the Bush administration…every US administration and every state is crooked and murderous! In the US, 90% of the media is right-wing and the other 10 percent is centrist. Opposing views are simply UNKNOWN to most people.

Before WWII, every capitalist state had a ministry of Propaganda…today they merely have different names for it, such as “high school” or “the media”. The fact that you don’t consider them part of the propaganda machine proves one point: The most successful propaganda machine is one that’s cleverly disguised.

In terms of violence, the Chinese state has committed its “fair share” of crimes against humanity that should NEVER BE FORGOTTEN. But clearly China’s crimes are overshadowed by the MONUMENTAL atrocities and aggressions committed by the US regime. Should I mention of a few of them? Nicaragua, Chile, Haiti, Guatemala, Cuba, Korea, Vietnam, Cambodia, Afghanistan, Iraq, etc, etc.

It’s nothing short of brilliant propaganda on the part of the United States government, in successfully directing its subjects to attack foreign states’ human rights record, while turning a blind eye to its own crimes. (And a bit hypocritical, don’t you think?)

And forced labour, you say? One of my friend’s grandfather lived (and almost died) in a Canadian forced-labour camp (called “Relief Camp”) during the Depression. Moreover, today Western capitalists lock up millions of labourers succumbed to the threat of starvation in filthy sweatshops, paying them little more than the cost of meals. As far as I’m concerned, they are forced labourers. Before you say something, the forced-labourers in Laogai camps are “paid” too (a paltry sum).

So, in response, I DO know these things…and a bit more than you do, I’m afraid.

February 10, 2008 @ 11:34 am | Comment

@Jinhan
it’s not good for your health to read only Noam Chomski and Naomi Klein. Believe me.

February 10, 2008 @ 3:28 pm | Comment

It’s also not good to make baseless assumptions about other people before getting to know them; you’ll do well to remember that.

I’m don’t exactly qualify as a “fan” of Chomsky (Or Klein). Judging from the few works by Chomsky that I have read, the guy seems like a intelligent fella. But judging from his decision to endorse the Democratic Party, he can still learn a thing or too from us communists.

Enough talk about popular icons. You are always welcomed to refute my posts other than randomly posting baseless and meaningless comments.

February 10, 2008 @ 4:37 pm | Comment

Ok, Richard, Otherlisa, Ivan, Raj, Kevin, et al…

Up to the challenge of debating Jinhan? (I have to go watch Springer now myself…)

February 10, 2008 @ 10:39 pm | Comment

Why so angry? Lighten up a bit. Even serious stuff like world revolution can be fun when you smile once in a while.

How is that for starters:

“It is the task of historic materialism to tell us how everything must come, and when it doesn’t, why it couldn’t come like that.”
Kurt Tucholsky

February 10, 2008 @ 10:54 pm | Comment

Agree somehow with Shulan,

Sometimes the atmosphere here is so ugly. Some people take a really venomous tone and it get’s quite a bit too personal.

Jinhan,

You might realize the extent of the CCP’s missions of killing it’s own people, maybe you do, though I dont know how you could know all that and still be defending this party.

Anyway, the point was about indoctrination, not just your typical greed and fighting for power. I will do a comparison though and see for myself how much killing the current US governing party has done in the last 60 years. I dont think it is fair to say that “China” or “the US” has done this or that. I am refering to the CCP because they are currently in power (thats a big part of why I come around to chat about it). What bothers me is that its the indoctrination that has kept them from facing up to their crimes.

So what I meant was not if you know abou the CCP human rights crimes but if you know specifically about the human rights crimes pertaining to the mind manipulation of the masses of China (extending into the world).

You mentionned the Western propaganda, sure, the West has it, lying is wrong and it is bound to have a negative effect if people cannot get out of it.

But the BIG difference is the total lack of freedom in China. It is an open secret that if you deviate from the party line the consequences will be frightening. In the West, the worste that will happen is that the corporations/governments will try their best to shut you up.

In China, the CCP has indoctrinated into peoples minds the thought that going against the party line is bad, they associate doing so with being tortured etc. Fear combined with no truth in media equates to the power the CCP has over peoples minds, to guide them and threaten them, coerce and manipulate peoples lives. I believe this is what fear and hopelessness can do for a regime and that is why they have done it.

I also think it will not work totally, there are people who still value their dignity in China despite being a drop in the ocean and those people might just reach out to other people who are less inclined to think for themselves…

February 11, 2008 @ 5:16 am | Comment

@shulan

I have no idea what irrelevant topic you are going to bring up next. But heck, it’s Sunday. So here it is.

“A witty quote proves nothing.”
-Voltaire (quite ironic for him to say that, isn’t it.)

I remember hearing a similar argument used against science by Christian fundamentalists…That science is “unreliable” because it is often mistaken and that it modifies itself over time.

Like science, historical materialism is NOT a body of knowledge, but instead a method which one uses in political or historical discourse. Like any genuine field of science, in order for a political theory to be as scientific as it could be it must constantly modify itself to keep the theory relevant, taking into consideration new discoveries. That’s what Marx and Engels did when they were alive.

The science of physics in the late 19th century and early 20th century cannot explain why we are in space and why some trains can travel as fast as 500 kilometers per hour (scientists did not believe humans can survive under these circumstances). And that, is the result of evolution in science.

Marx was right (and still is) on a lot of things, much of his theory still relevant…But like everything else, it needs to be developed.

Newton had his Einstein, and Marx awaits his.

February 11, 2008 @ 5:17 am | Comment

OK, just a testing post to see how this forum works

[i]test[/i]
[b]test[/b]

February 11, 2008 @ 9:20 am | Comment

@Snow:

“…though I dont know how you could know all that and still be defending this party.”

I am NOT defending the Party/State. I’m merely putting it into perspective. Those who know me knows that I dish out plenty of harsh criticisms against the CCP and Mao…But credit where credit is due, they did liberate China from the gangster-fascist, US puppet regime of Chiang Kai-shek. China was a semi-feudal, semi-colonial, superstitious and devastated DUMP in 1949, and the CCP did a lot to alleviate China from that condition.

However, it is getting increasingly clear that CCP is just another capitalist oppressor, and is in effect, the enemy of the oppressed like any other state. Because state, *by definition* rules through coercion and propaganda. The same is true for every state, in China or the US.

But things must be put into perspective.
Does the CCP deserve criticism? Absolutely. Not only it needs to be criticized, it needs to be *OVERTHROWN* in the not too distant future.

The question is which perspective one should adopt in attacking the Chinese state.

It’s plain *ridiculous* for people who support Western imperialism (especially patriots of the US Empire) to criticize the CCP. After all, the CCP will have to work really hard to catch up with the crimes that are committed and are still being committed by imperialist powers.

Every time I see Western critics criticize China’s cruelty and lack of freedom all without a hint of irony, I think of the Nazi propaganda broadcasts during WWII regarding British atrocities in India and Africa (which were all true). The British Empire was *criminal and murderous* to the extreme, but the Nazis weren’t the ones to criticize.

“…but if you know specifically about the human rights crimes pertaining to the mind manipulation of the masses of China (extending into the world).”

Like I said, the Chinese government SUCKS at semantics! I only know of ONE party official (a diplomat) who diligently study the speeches made by Jiang Zemin and Hu Jintao. Few from within or without China buys into it.

“But the BIG difference is the total lack of freedom in China. It is an open secret that if you deviate from the party line the consequences will be frightening. In the West, the worste that will happen is that the corporations/governments will try their best to shut you up.”

Is being shot at by the National guards in Kent State University campus “frightening”? Is having the FBI launch a full-scale investigation over some teenage girl’s Blog “frightening”? Is sending a mercenary army of professional serial killers into dissident foreign countries to kill other people “frightening”? Is the massive arrest of more than 2,000 peaceful demonstrators “frightening”? Is assassinating Black civil rights leaders “frightening”?

“In China, the CCP has indoctrinated into peoples minds the thought that going against the party line is bad, they associate doing so with being tortured etc. Fear combined with no truth in media equates to the power the CCP has over peoples minds, to guide them and threaten them, coerce and manipulate peoples lives. I believe this is what fear and hopelessness can do for a regime and that is why they have done it.”

That’s a bold assertion, and I have yet to see evidence of that.

Without proper evidence, all I can do is provide what I consider to be a more accurate observation of the situation.

I think the only reason Chinese state has firm hold over the situation is because people are actually *hopeful*. People no longer believe in what the media tells them, but nevertheless remain largely “loyal” and “patriotic”.

That’s because Chinese capitalism is youthful and energetic, up until very recently it has been able to consistently show improvement in people’s lives. People maybe living in SHIT but a lot of people do (or did) have a hope for a better future.

I maybe wrong but recently I’m sensing that optimism rapidly fading, mostly due to deteriorating living conditions and rising inflation. And when that hope is totally shattered, things will fall apart.

The same goes for America. Sooner or later people will realize that capitalism and their ruler are screwing them over and sucking them dry. Then we’ll see what happens.

February 11, 2008 @ 10:14 am | Comment

Well, gotta award some points to Jinhan for that one. He makes some valid observations.

February 11, 2008 @ 1:03 pm | Comment

Everyone has skeletons in their closet. The ones who have a right to judge are those who actively work to churn up and rebury the old and dried bones on hallowed ground.

Everyone currently sins. Those who have a right to judge are those who actively debate those sins (or in the case of government, allow active debate of those sins).

This is where the whole “US has propaganda too” argument falls apart. You are absolutely right that the US and the whole West have propaganda. What sets them apart from China is that the means to challenge that propaganda in the media are legally sanctioned. As for past mistakes, there is ample commentary on historical mistakes in both the US and Europe. Civil rights issues, cultural flare-ups like at Kent State University, the colonization of Hawaii (since it used to be independent, once upon a time) — all are open to discussion

This is not to say, Jinhan, that I see no element of truth in anything you say. For example, I fully agree that the current support of the Chinese people for their government lies in their optimism for the future. However, I think you disregard the fact that the “Western Media Establishment.inc”, while not free from bias, gives well-read individuals numerous viewpoints to choose from and lets them decide for themselves. Furthermore, universities thoughout the US and Europe have many programs that discuss the disasters that racism and colonialism have brought on the world.

Now find me a university in China that conducts free and open discussions on the negative aspects of the Cultural Revolution. Furthermore tell me why I have to write Tian@nmen Ma$$a(re in this way to avoid the Net Nanny. Give me a good reason that Lonely Planet is banned in China besides the fact that it has the audacity to paint Taiwan in a different color on the map and include the island in a separate book, perish the thought!

This is nothing BUT attempted mind control. Until China has a free media, I will remain unconvinced that it is on par with Western media as a whole. Therefore, I feel the Western media establishment is currently more qualified to judge China’s skeletons than China’s own media. If I still say the same after China has a free media, THEN call me a racist.

February 11, 2008 @ 1:37 pm | Comment

Jinhan and Thomas both make some fair points. But I think Jinhan fails to see the crucial differentiator between the US and China propaganda system. In the US we are taught to raise questions, to criticize our past and our present and our government. In high school I learned about the US government’s shennanigans in Guatemala to help the United Fruit company. And much more. All the data are out there for anyone who wants to know. Most of the atrocities Jinhan points to where perpetrated by the CIA and I fully agree with him that they are reprehensible and cannot be ignored. But that is not all that America is. There are reasons why even now, with our current criminal government. people from around the world risk their lives to come here. It remains, even now, one of the world’s freest countires, even with Gitmo and renditions and the Patriot Act. The current government is an aberration, but soon they will be a memory.

I think Jinhan is seeing the US too much in black and white, and doesn’t appreciate that Americans can and often do file suit against their government and often win,very rarely getting beaten by local village thugs in the process. China is getting better in this respect, people are finding ways to challenge the government like never before. But they have such a long way to go, and for the truly dirt poor, they haven’t even started.

Anyway, I am still on vacation and can’t spend hours arguing online. I appreciate the intelligent dialogue here.

February 11, 2008 @ 2:02 pm | Comment

Jinhan,
As you said you are a communist, I wanted to hint to the fact that historic materialism was not seen as just a political theory among others by communists, but as a dogma similar to a religious believe. They thought they had found the one principle that moves human societies i.e. class-struggle. The quote might proove nothing but illustrates and ridicules the hybris of this creed quite nicely, I think.

February 11, 2008 @ 2:19 pm | Comment

I asked you:

…but if you know specifically about the human rights crimes pertaining to the mind manipulation of the masses of China (extending into the world).â€�

You answered:

Like I said, the Chinese government SUCKS at semantics! I only know of ONE party official (a diplomat) who diligently study the speeches made by Jiang Zemin and Hu Jintao. Few from within or without China buys into it.

I’ll take that as a ‘no’

Go and see what the CCP has done to terrorize people into abandonning their dignity and living like animals under propaganda lies. I am watching this documentary where people were persecuted during the anti rightist campaign and they just ‘admitted’ to what they were accused of and begged forgiveness even though they had no idea why they were being beaten and tortured by the community (the whole community went on witch hunts in order to show their loyalty, they went around accusing people of being rightists and committed inhumane crimes against whole families….)

I order to understand the Chinese people of today, you have to understand what has been done to their minds, and thats what the CCP doesnt want people to think about or talk about.

Jinhan said: Is being shot at by the National guards in Kent State University campus “frighteningâ€�? Is having the FBI launch a full-scale investigation over some teenage girl’s Blog “frighteningâ€�? Is sending a mercenary army of professional serial killers into dissident foreign countries to kill other people “frighteningâ€�? Is the massive arrest of more than 2,000 peaceful demonstrators “frighteningâ€�? Is assassinating Black civil rights leaders “frightening”?

Yes, those things are quite frightening, now, multiply that by a billion in scale and scope and you will know what I am talking about. I think you are in the dark about the CCPs history of crimes against the Chinese people. So keep doing your research (-:

Peace,

February 11, 2008 @ 2:48 pm | Comment

China cracks down on irreverent Websites

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-video5feb05,1,689049.story?ctrack=1&cset=true

I wish they would say CCP instead of China, so annoying…

February 11, 2008 @ 2:49 pm | Comment

“…US and the whole West have propaganda. What sets them apart from China is that the means to challenge that propaganda in the media are legally sanctioned.”

Say I’m a young journalist who publishes an article suggesting that the history of America is one of genocide, exploitation and oppression against the lower class—And that the US is still continuing its genocidal policy against foreign workers.

What would happen to me?

Technically, it’s legal for me to publish such an article…But first I would have to FORGET ABOUT A CAREER IN JOURNALISM! I am no longer employable to any influential, profit-seeking news organization.

One of my favorite journalist/writer who used to write for the New York Press lost his job a few years ago simply because he mocked the Pope in one of his articles.

Imagine what would happen to me if I published an article expressing *my opinion* of the Pope?

Well I can certainly forget about buying that suburban home or sending my kids to college.

Most of the journalists go through professional training in elitist institutions; they KNOW what is expected of them by their employers/masters…No one would be dumb enough to make the mistake of publishing something deemed unacceptable by the establishment.

This, I believe, is dubbed “Socialization” by sociologists.

Not every slave has a gun pointed to his head, some times other deterrents work just as good. In this case, job security, rather than a gun, is the mechanism employed by the ruling class in filtering out dissent.

“Until China has a free media, I will remain unconvinced that it is on par with Western media as a whole.”

You certainly have a very “liberal” definition of the word “free”, since you apparently consider Western media to be “free”.

Far from “free”, it is actually *very expensive* to run, say, a radio station, something that the working class can never aspire to (much less radical working class). And that’s one of the reasons why capitalists and card-carrying fascists have always dominated the American media. All American people have is the *illusion* of freedom.

Fortunately, that is being changed with coming of the Age of Internet (in China, too!).

“But I think Jinhan fails to see the crucial differentiator between the US and China propaganda system. In the US we are taught to raise questions, to criticize our past and our present and our government.”

Yeah, kids. Our government killed tens of millions of people and is striving hard to kill some more. No, it isn’t for YOU to do anything about it. If you don’t like raping and pillaging third world countries, go out and vote for a new dictator. And if you are lucky, he’ll invade fewer countries.

The sad part is, a lot of people buy into this. Essentially, the state is relieved of any responsibility for crimes against humanity under this system, because people attribute failures and crimes to individuals, instead of the state and the overall system. “Oh it’s just Bush. Oh it’s just Clinton. Or Nixon. Now if we could just elect Bozo the Clown, we are gonna be alright!”

In essence, when you say “criticize the government” you meant to say criticize the Bush administration or the Blair administration. Similarly, in China a great number of people attribute crimes and failures to particular leaders (such as Li Peng and Jiang Zemin), with the hope that once they are replaced things will get better.

Not for me. Bush is the symptom, not the disease, as a friend of mine once said. It’s the *system* that’s criminal and murderous.

“Yes, those things are quite frightening, now, multiply that by a billion in scale and scope and you will know what I am talking about.”

Did the documentary you watched insist that the magnitude of CCP’s crimes is “a billion” times more than that of the US government?

Personally I’d rather be politically persecuted than to have my village overran by American mercenaries…And I’m sure you can understand why.

As fucked up as the Chinese state is, China didn’t pillage entire villages in Korea; it didn’t murder millions in Vietnam (though an invasion did occur); it didn’t carpet bomb Cambodia; it didn’t set up fascist regimes in South America; it didn’t colonize the Philippines; it didn’t colonize Cuba; it didn’t help to murder millions in Indonesia; and it didn’t invade Iraq or Afghanistan.

China’s Anti-Rightism Movement (“Hundred Flowers Campaign”) isn’t even in the same league.

February 11, 2008 @ 3:58 pm | Comment

@snow

could you link to an article that isn’t written by yahoo malaysia? i am not sure it is really an expert source of information.

@jinhan

rant, rant, rant, the us is bad, rant rant. rant rant all evil in the world is committed by westerners rant rant. rant all westerners are american, there’s no difference between european countries and europe and the us rant rant. china maybe bad but the west is worse rant rant rant. the only people being exploited are in the third world rant rant they are all being exploited by westerners and never by each other rant rant. the third world lived in peace and harmony in lands of milk and honey until the westerners turned up rant rant.

February 11, 2008 @ 9:14 pm | Comment

What a fountain of wisdom you are!

February 11, 2008 @ 9:36 pm | Comment

I am glad you agree that I summarised your points well.

February 12, 2008 @ 12:57 am | Comment

hah, Si, hi,

It’s written by AP, that Malaysia paper was just the first place i saw it. lots carried it.

Don’t have time to read Jinhan’s post right now, good day (-:

February 12, 2008 @ 5:20 am | Comment

Jinhan, I looked at the last few things you said and they indicate you are really missing info.

Do you know the CCP’s connection with Kmer rouge and NK, and Vietnam?

I dont think there is anything wrong with being ignorant, but it is up to you to check this stuff out more in depth. If you dont want to learn more then this kind of discussion is not going to do you anygood, you have to do more research. Are you in China?

February 12, 2008 @ 5:25 am | Comment

I wonder if Chinese spies will also take a break for the Olympics. If so, I hope the propaganda department has the good sense to announce the fact:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article3352817.ece

February 12, 2008 @ 6:19 am | Comment

“Do you know the CCP’s connection with Kmer rouge and NK, and Vietnam?

I dont think there is anything wrong with being ignorant, but it is up to you to check this stuff out more in depth. If you dont want to learn more then this kind of discussion is not going to do you anygood, you have to do more research. Are you in China?”

Funny you should mention that…it is well known that the US decided to back the Khmer Rouge AFTER Cambodia was liberated by the Socialist Republic of Vietnam, and the crimes of Pol Pot exposed to the world.

Maybe by then the US finally decided that they and the Khmer Rouge “weren’t so different after all”.

Of course, that does not in any way absolve the CCP of its conduct and the nasty role it played in the matter; and I’m not interested in defending my number one class enemy within China.

I am merely pointing out the irony in your post. You accusing me of ignorance while failing to do enough research on any topic you bring forth.

February 12, 2008 @ 6:20 am | Comment

Jinhan, I would be interested if you have anything to say regarding the fact that the Net Nanny will be taking a break during the Olympics. Remember that topic?

Here is your original comment: “Who’s interested in reading crappy Western propaganda anyways? Their journalistic integrity (or the lack thereof) rivals China’s Ministry of Propaganda. BBC News Chinese is the worst.”

Great! We have your opinion about “Western propaganda”. Now what about China’s Net Nanny? Basically, you have committed the classic tactic of turning a legitimate topic of discussion into a rant (a poorly argued one at that) against the US. If you have anything useful to say about the original topic, it would be nice to hear it. Otherwise, I politely suggest an end to this negative, off-topic ranting that really serves no purpose but to hoist the flag of Chinese nationalism.

February 12, 2008 @ 12:13 pm | Comment

“Great! We have your opinion about “Western propaganda”. Now what about China’s Net Nanny?”

My argument has been that propaganda and censorship exists on both sides in different forms; and that to defend Western propaganda against Chinese censorship (Or “Net Nanny”) is *absurd*.

Happy now?

“Basically, you have committed the classic tactic of turning a legitimate topic of discussion into a rant (a poorly argued one at that) against the US.”

I guess that’s one way of responding to my observation on propaganda and censorship in the West…in absence of a coherent or intelligent counterargument.

“Otherwise, I politely suggest an end to this negative, off-topic ranting that really serves no purpose but to hoist the flag of Chinese nationalism.”

So criticism of Western propaganda and censorship is “negative” and serves to bolster Chinese Nationalism, whereas criticism of Chinese censorship is all right?

And you needn’t worry about me “hoisting the flag of Chinese nationalism” anytime soon. This is what I actually believe in:

1.) The abolition of statehood and boundaries.

2.) The eventual partition of China into numerous autonomous communes.

3.) The Proletariat of the world has no “Motherland”.

It’s the political and cultural “sensitivities” of American “patridiots” that should be the matter of concern here.

February 12, 2008 @ 1:55 pm | Comment

“I guess that’s one way of responding to my observation on propaganda and censorship in the West…in absence of a coherent or intelligent counterargument. ”

Good try, but many intelligent counterarguments have been made, several of which you seem to have ignored out of apparent incapability to respond. I am still waiting for something fresh from you. And stale rants seem to be the only thing I hear.

“It’s the political and cultural “sensitivities” of American “patridiots” that should be the matter of concern here.”

Really? I thought it was your ability to stay on topic. Although you have certainly proven your ability to stay on a soap box.

February 12, 2008 @ 2:35 pm | Comment

Furthermore, you seem to have ignored:

1) That many of your detractors in here are not American. Several have been Chinese even.

2) That this is about an influx of information from outside of China entering China, which also incidentally happens to come from the rest of the world as well as the traditional West: Africa, the Middle East, India, Taiwan, South America… you name it.

Jinhan, you have turned the whole thing into a Western “propaganda” vs. Chinese Net Nanny funfest, not anyone else in this room. So yes, you are kinda off topic, yes, you are on a soap box, and, judging by the amount of time you are spending on this, coupled by your selective ignoring of the points you may find, finished off by your argumentative tone, you seem to be really intent on having the last word. So enjoy it. And long live the autonomous commune and Monty Python too. Ni!

February 12, 2008 @ 3:03 pm | Comment

“Good try, but many intelligent counterarguments have been made, ”

Such as?

No, all I’ve seen so far are personal attacks and dismissive comments on my analysis of the Weston “propaganda model”. I’m still waiting for a decent response.

Looks like I’ll have to waiting for a long time.

[i]Really? I thought it was your ability to stay on topic. [/i]

It’s not my fault if you don’t understand what you read.

Anyhow, just to clarify: I’d be for a world-wide ban on ALL large supranational news agencies.

“That many of your detractors in here are not American. Several have been Chinese even.”

What does this have to do with anything?

“That this is about an influx of information from outside of China entering China”

Surely you don’t mean to say the CCP bans ALL the information coming into China.

As far as I’m concerned, BBC new (especially the Chinese language site) is crap, and no one misses it.

[i]you have turned the whole thing into a Western “propaganda” vs. Chinese Net Nanny funfest,[/i]

Well the blog entry did talk about BBC news and the Chinese censorship. If you’d like to divert the subject and talk about something else AGAIN, fine, I have no complaints. Just make sure you do enough research this time.

[i]judging by the amount of time you are spending on this…you seem to be really intent on having the last word.[/i]

Actually that’s because I was on a 30 hour research essay marathon, and felt like distracting myself all the time. So consider yourself “lucky” 🙂

On the whole, censorship has always existed and always will exist, in China or elsewhere. The only question here for me is with regards to WHO should be responsible in filtering out material, and WHAT should be filtered out.

Now, the angry, inquisitive mob defending the sacred right of “freedom of speech” could arrive any minute. I’ll get a good sleep and let’s see what happens tomorrow.

February 13, 2008 @ 1:28 am | Comment

Jinhan, I’m sorry if your mother dropped you on your head as a young man, but to claim a similarity in censorship between, say, the USA and China is mentally-challenged.
I do know a number of people in China who would like to see the BBC Chinese website unblocked, and just because you absurdly claim that they don’t exist does not mean that they should be deprived of this right.
All that you want to do is relativize, to try to draw a parallel between the practice of censorship in China and the American media, as a means of absolving the info-crimes of the Chinese government by claiming “everybody does it,” which is actually not true. The Chinese “Golden Shield Project” is unique in scale, strength, and invasiveness. And it produces on a daily basis (through the combination of the strict control of information by censors and the careful manipulation of information by the state media) the kind of mind-numbing trash that you’re currently spewing on this site.
If you can’t see that, well, you’re either dumb or just being dishonest.

February 13, 2008 @ 3:31 am | Comment

Jinhan,

You’ve raised some interesting points, to be sure. I’m curious, what is the mechanism of control for propaganda in the West? You’ve mentioned schools, the FBI, the government, and the media and you’ve argued that all are part of a larger propaganda effort, I’m just curious 1) how this works and 2) what are your sources?

By sources, I mean documentation, archival materials, academic studies, articles, monographs, essays, etc. done in any language that you could cite so that those of us interested in pursuing your line of reasoning could read a bit more on the subject.

Thanks.

February 13, 2008 @ 7:48 am | Comment

@Jeremiah

Here is a documentary. After watching it, you should be able to understand what Jinhan was talking about. Thanks to the internet, we get to see it. Enjoy!

1982 Edward Griffin interviews Norman Dodds

http://www.youtube.com/watch?########

(Replace ######## in above URL with v=xxxxxxx below)

Part 1: v=C8cC21jB9EE
Part 2: v=nBfYarsfgpI
Part 3: v=lMVZSsPzaTc
Part 4: v=LFUygqg57XU
Part 5: v=0nl1oh5DB1I
Part 6: v=LBR6dDRmdbU

February 13, 2008 @ 8:54 am | Comment

Okay, we have a video on YouTube. Anything else?

I mean, are you and Jinhan followers of Norman Dodds and that’s what this is all about?

(For the uninitiated, you can find out more about Norman Dodds on the website of another of Dodds’ many online fans David Icke.)

February 13, 2008 @ 9:14 am | Comment

Jeremiah,

Did you hear the part about the historians? For me, this is enough. If these powerful interest groups can manipulate the American education system, it doesn’t take a genius to figure out the mainstream media is manipulated as well. It’s all about money and power!

February 13, 2008 @ 10:11 am | Comment

Hi,

I am watching The Corporation now. It is about corporate propaganda mainly. The corporations in America at least, are not considered liable entities something about the 14th ammendment being twisted to let corporations do whatever they want and not be able to be called on their crimes…

These corporations work for a firm bottom line which is dollar (shareholders, since they are the investors) so they forget everything but dollar. So there is a certain amount of wrecklessness going on on pretty big scales in the US at least. The main thing they commit is promoting materialism, especially brainwashing kids, ruinning family values by turning kiddies into nagging monsters and diabetic goodfornothings, undermining peoples trust and naivete, destroying the environment, ruinning the future of society and the planet, supporting vastly unethical regimes, the worste of all being the CCP of course…

The list would be sure to go on since there are some corps that are conscienceless.

But, there is still in America the institution of freedom of thought. If in America, we became aware and we wanted to not be brainwashed or if we didnt want to give our kids diabetes or support nasty regimes, WE COULD empower ourselves, we have that right (here in Canada as well ) because we have the human right to not be arbitrarily tortured, terrorize and murdered for our thoughts and beliefs. There are independant media and there are are alternative voices and actions. But it will take more to let people really be aware, but it is happening I think. More stuff like the Corporation movie etc can help undo the damage of brainwashing. The difference in China is that you have to face the risk of suffering torture and all sorts of nasty stuff if you want to help other people learn the truth…

February 13, 2008 @ 10:56 am | Comment

“Thanks to the internet, we get to see it. Enjoy!”

Don’t hear that so often in China, do we?

February 13, 2008 @ 3:02 pm | Comment

(continued from above)
…thus, returning us to the issue at hand… in fact, somewhat ironically for jinhan and AC, youtube (the foundation of this ludicrous argument) has been blocked in China.
Are you by any chance competing with the CCP for a world record of mind-boggling contradictions?

February 13, 2008 @ 3:09 pm | Comment

[TWILIGHT ZONE MUSIC]

Imagine if you will a blog about China. A blog like any other written by a self-professed non-expert as a hobby. A blog the same as many others except for a terrible curse. This blog was cursed to have numerous rabid posters making unfounded claims based on staggeringly poor generalisations and stereotypes despite having those same claims refuted numerous times by facts and evidence. The curse placed upon this blog forced these posters to continue their stances even in the face of superior logic and evidence. A blog destined to drive its readers insane. A blog only found…[DUNDUNDUN]…in the Twilight Zone…

[/TWILIGHT ZONE MUSIC]

(with apologies to beowulf)

richard, you have the patience of a saint.

February 13, 2008 @ 4:22 pm | Comment

Si, here’s the dirty little secret: Sometimes I simply ignore my own blog, especially when the comments start to go over the top and I’m away on holiday. I get so disgusted, I say to myself something along the line of, “Fine, if these jackasses want to shout out the first thing that comes into their heads on my blog, let them do it; I’m not going to let it ruin my vacation.” (I just got back late last night after four badly needed days in Thailand.)

I get emails, “Why didn’t you delete this commenter or that commenter? Why do you have a double standard?” Etcetera. The truth is there is no double standard, sometimes I simply don’t care and don’t want to be bothered playing the hall monitor.

Now that I’m back, expect me to be less patient. I had hopes for a moment that Jinhan was actually a smart guy and now I see he’s another upside down fruitcake. His arguments started out on a persuasive note and soon degenerated into a rehash of the tired “America is worse” argument, which isn’t even an argument, it’s so full of holes. Meanwhile, trying to rationalize with him as Jeremiah is nobly trying to do is a road to nowhere since Jinshan’s brain has been hermetically sealed and is totally impervious to any argument that doesn’t start with an attack on the US for what it did to the American Indians, the state of Hawaii or the slaves. All Real Evil stems from bad bad America. Everything atrocious that other nations do is “mere evil,” a cheap imitation of the trend-setting US of A. You can interact with him, but you’ll never win. Anyone who can tell you with a straight face he still subscribes to the dictates of the planet’s most-failed and most catastrophic political philosophy is not going to turned around by “mere facts.”

February 13, 2008 @ 4:50 pm | Comment

Boy, don’t we have a tough crowd today.

“Jinhan, I’m sorry if your mother dropped you on your head as a young man, but to claim a similarity in censorship between, say, the USA and China is mentally-challenged.”

Defiant and provocative like always, but this time with the slightest hint of wit. Nevertheless, your post is again poorly subsidised with information.

Believe it or not, I do see a similarity between spraying bullets on people in Tiananmen Square and attempting to cover it up; and using chemical weapon indiscriminately against people in Fallujah and then attempting to cover it up.

“I do know a number of people in China who would like to see the BBC Chinese website unblocked, ”

Next time you see them, give ’em my assurance: there are hundreds of other media agencies available that are just as crappy and repeat the exact same thing.

“All that you want to do is…draw a parallel between the practice of censorship in China and the American media, as a means of absolving the info-crimes of the Chinese government”

Yeah, I’m the acting chairman of the UN committee responsible for absolving “info-crimes” (Whatever that means) committed by the CCP. *Rolls eyes*

First and foremost, I am pointing out the hypocrisy of Western critics, conservative and liberal alike, and their questionable motive in criticising foreign governments when they gladly turn a blind eye to the very same crime committed by “their own” government.

Moreover, I’d like to argue that most of them serve as the *mouthpiece* for imperialist interests overseas. No sane person could escape the sense of irony when they criticize China’s rights abuses on the one hand and massacre Iraqis on the other. Those who condemn one while condoning the other are usually either *spineless cowards* or pro-imperialist scumbags.

Both they and you are in no position to pass judgement onto other scumbags, so long as you speak from the perspective of imperialist regimes.

“The Chinese “Golden Shield Project” is unique in scale, strength, and invasiveness. ”

Does the US government even release statistics or information regarding its censorship and surveillance projects??

How do you compare?

As far as I know, coverage of the War in Iraq is *severely censored* in the US and no negative information can be found in the media.

A while ago a film of US soldiers shooting an wounded Iraqi civilian “slipped through”, but the reporter who shot the film (from NBC, I believe) was immediately expelled, and the footage quickly disappeared from the media. A part from that, several journalists had their hotel rooms broken into and film footage destroyed by American and Iraqi occupation forces. During the siege of Fallujah, only pro-imperialist reporters were allowed to cover the story and several others were arrested. Similar reports go on and on.

Truth is quite annoying, isn’t it?

Well, tough. It’s the Age of Internet, the truth always come out…And pretty quickly, too.

“you’ve argued that all are part of a larger propaganda effort, I’m just curious 1) how this works and 2) what are your sources? ”

Well, there are generally two ways our society is censored, and we see a combination of the two in almost every country. One is, of course, active censorship measures carried out by political authorities and their institutions, such as the school board. The other is similar to the process of Socialization, in which case the society, both as a whole and as individuals within that community, intentionally filters out materials deemed “unfit” by the establishment. And for good reasons, too. People do not publically say or write things that are “outside the normal” or might upset the establishment. If I publish some of my ideas and make it well-known that I’m this big-mouthed radical communist, I might never get a decent job ever again. I have real incentives to prevent that from happening.

Now, I have a little confession to make…censorship and propaganda isn’t my field of expertise, but I AM pretty good as critical thinking. Therefore, much of what I say comes from observations and my own critical analysis. But I have stuff you can dig further into it if you are interested. It’s a theory put forth by Edward Herman and Noam Chomsky, call “the propaganda model” (which I alluded to earlier). I haven’t had the time to study it myself, but it’s something of an expansion of what I just wrote. The book is called Manufacturing Consent.

“I had hopes for a moment that Jinhan was actually a smart guy and now I see he’s another upside down fruitcake.”

So much for the “patience of a saint”. You are acting no different from the Chinese nationalists you despise.

“All Real Evil stems from bad bad America.”

From reading your blog one gets the impression your analysis on China is no different.

I, on the other hand, believe that *global capitalism* is the cause of much of the brutality we endure. The US is its engine and China, one of the gears.

February 14, 2008 @ 2:12 am | Comment

Jinhan,

Since this is not ‘your field of expertise,’ what you’re saying is that you’ve been making some fairly bold and broad charges based on no evidence apart from your own ‘observations.’

By the way. the model used in “Manufacturing Consent” (and the processes you have describe above ) while certainly insidious, are quite different from state-sponsored campaigns of information suppression as found in the PRC, former USSR, or even the literary purges of the Qianlong Emperor, which is why I asked you to articulate, as best you could, the mechanisms of control. I had a hunch you were muddling together several different theories, a hunch, it would seem, that was quite correct. I might suggest further that your definition of ‘propaganda’ is a bit broad, useful for making your larger argument, but too much so for you to build an actual case based on supporting evidence/sources.

It would be nice if we could write books or make an argument based on what we ‘know to be true,’ unfortunately it is also necessary to prove it as well by testing our hypotheses with data. The ability to formulate ideas based on available evidence is the cornerstone of ‘critical thinking,’ and a proveable hypothesis is what separates good scholarship from the nut jobs. It is how knowledge advances, as future researchers test the data of past theories and either confirm, disprove, or tweak those theories. Frankly, I shouldn’t have to be telling you this, it’s something that most children learn in 8th grade science class.

It appears you’ve been relying almost entirely on rhetoric to make your case and it is unfortunate that when pressed for any kind of documentation to support your claims, you come up empty. That’s sad.

February 14, 2008 @ 7:29 am | Comment

“So much for the “patience of a saint”. You are acting no different from the Chinese nationalists you despise.

“All Real Evil stems from bad bad America.”

From reading your blog one gets the impression your analysis on China is no different.”

So, after being accused of working for the CCP, Richard is also a (Chinese) nationalist and a one-sided Anti-China-basher. What’s going to be next? Richard is the secret leader of the evil “Peking Roast Duck Cult” trying to wrap up the world in a pancake and drown it in hoisin sauce?

February 15, 2008 @ 3:25 am | Comment