There have been several posts here recently about the problems China’s overly passionate, overly nationalistic youth are causing for their country, and how their tendency to over-react to what they perceive to be overly harsh criticisms of their country gives the world an even worse impression of China. (And yes, I know, thats a lot of “overs” for one sentence.) It is painful to read about this, because as all of us know, there is at least some validity to these students’ viewpoints – on some topics the outside world really is overly harsh and at times misinformed – but the way they go about expressing themselves only adds fuel to the fire and diminishes their argument.
Articles like this from today’s Times underscore the vicious circle:
When the time came for the smiling Tibetan monk at the front of the University of Southern California lecture hall to answer questions, the Chinese students who packed the audience for the talk last Tuesday had plenty to lob at their guest:
If Tibet was not part of China, why had the Chinese emperor been the one to give the Dalai Lama his title? How did the tenets of Buddhism jibe with the ‘slavery system’ in Tibet before China’s modernization efforts? What about the Dalai Lama’s connection to Hitler?
As the monk tried to rebut the students, they grew more hostile. They brandished photographs and statistics to support their claims. ‘Stop lying! Stop lying!’ one young man said. A plastic bottle of water hit the wall behind the monk, and campus police officers hustled the person who threw it out of the room.
Scenes like this, ranging from civil to aggressive, have played out at colleges across the country over the past month, as Chinese students in the United States have been forced to confront an image of their homeland that they neither recognize nor appreciate. Since the riots last month in Tibet, the disrupted Olympic torch relays and calls to boycott the opening ceremony of the Games in Beijing, Chinese students, traditionally silent on political issues, have begun to lash out at what they perceive as a pervasive anti-Chinese bias.
Clearly, this kind of reaction – throwing bottles in a USC classroom or throwing rocks in Korea – is not the best strategy for winning hearts and minds. But at least this article tells us where these students are coming from. Too rarely in the Western media do we see any meaningful insights into why the young people feel so frustrated and filled with pent-up anger. The article, however, also exposes their weakness, such as emotional but factually challenged “documentation” of Tibet’s progress. (And I’m not saying Tibet hasn’t progressed since its “liberation”; in many ways it has. But the materials the students are brandishing, described on page two of the article, do little to further this argument.) And a shaky grasp of history. And a childish manner of self-expression.
While I sympathize with the students frustration at what they see as the world’s refusal to listen to reason, I also know they are using exactly the wrong strategy to get their message out. With each new horror story I wonder, why can’t they take a step back and see how the Antichrist the Dalai Lama has managed to arouse global sympathy? He didn’t do it by throwing rocks. He didn’t do it by scowling and chanting furious slogans.
I am traveling and will have to cut it short. But let me just finish by qualifying a point I’ve made in earlier posts, namely that nearly all of the young Chinese I know, no matter how intelligent and urbane, are adopting the anti-CNN mentality. Since I wrote that, I’ve talked with at least a few who have voiced genuine concern over their friends’ un-thought-through approach to speaking out. Most of them are a bit older than my angry friends, mainly in their 30s, and they are in despair over the immature and ineffective tactics employed by their younger countrymen. “Why do they always have to show the world their anger? Do they think that helps?” bemoaned a business friend of mine earlier today, and I felt his pain.
Maybe the 20-somethings will grow out of it. I think most of us can look back to our 20s and cringe at some of the things we did back then. But I fear the anger may be too ingrained, a strain of disease the Party cultivated to protect itself that has now run amok. No matter how grounded in fact some of their arguments may be, as long as they present themselves like over-testosteroned adolescents, China has yet another big problem on its hands. This image of a nation overrun by strident, violent youth who threaten to once again turn China inward is exactly what the country doesn’t need on the eve of it’s long-awaited and very expensive coming-out party. It could really damage the big show. And it isn’t doing much to further China’s image on college campuses outside of China.
If this post rambled or appeared more incoherent than usual, apologies in advance. I’m on the road and as sleep-starved as usual.
1
By Chris Brown
After reading about the angry Chinese students in the NY Times this morning, I started thinking about how annoying self-righteous students can be everywhere. I am not excusing the bottle throwing, swatstikas on French flags, and other idiocy. I am just remembering interviewing US students during anti-WTO demonstrations and being shocked at how ignorant they were. Self-righteousness and outrage mixed with ignorance seems to be common traits in university students worldwide.
April 30, 2008 @ 12:17 am | Comment
2
By Kai
I agree with your post and Chris Brown. To an extent, the youth are characterized by their idealism, their passions, and their lack of experience. Its part of growing up, so let’s just cross our fingers that they don’t end up forever hurting someone, or themselves.
April 30, 2008 @ 12:59 am | Comment
3
By ChinaFronting
I feel disgusted by the tone of this article. Trying to hide prejudice and double standard behind “objectivity” cant fool no one.
Throwing bottles or throwing rocks cant win heart and mind, I agree, neither should rioting on the streets nor attacking a handicapped girl!Nevertheless tibetans continue to win the so called “hearts and minds” of the West.
And the West felt their heart broken because DL was chanted as lier by a bunch of chinese students? give me a break! first off he is a lier, because he’s a politician, secondly where was the author when those lamas and Richard Gere shouting “China lie people die”? for the love of God they were saying a whole country is a lier.
Stop trying to imply that nationalists are something “made in China”, that’s a downright lie. Without American nationalism(of course they call it patriotism)’s help they wouldnt have had invaded Iraq. 1 million ppl died because of it, any self-critism on their great patriotism? of course not, it’s all Dubya’ s fault, America is never wrong. Patriotic Americans will rally behind their goverment again when they invade Iran. Grace Wang gets some death wishes, big deal! remmember what happened to Dixie Chicks and Michael Moore? any one? Some chinese teenagers calling Wang a traitor made the front line of US news papers, look at these barbaric chinese, what did this poor girl ever do …… are you kidding me? you had a freaking book called “Treason” dedicated to liberal American dissidents, written by the most poplar Ann Coulter, and it’s a best-seller, Americans love it!
The bottom line is, you are not us, you dont see things we see. Did u see the chinese student beaten up badly by japs had blood all over his face in Japan torch relay? of course you didnt. If you want to mend the fense, start by looking at urselves in the mirror.
I ‘m in my 30s, I was in TianAnMen square protesting. Now I’ m angrey too, not because of a stupid party, because I felt cheated by the west media. I used to firmly believe all the journalism and ethics shit…. God I was so stupid.
April 30, 2008 @ 1:12 am | Comment
4
By Ming
@ Chris Brown
120% agree. College students are easy to be irritated. If anyone think Chinese students are over-‘whatever’, it’s just because,
1. There are too many Chinese.
2. You’ve been reading too many articles about this. You need to go outside and take a break.
April 30, 2008 @ 1:34 am | Comment
5
By ToDieFor
Quote: Students argue that China has spent billions on Tibet, building schools, roads and other infrastructure. Asked if the Tibetans wanted such development, they looked blankly incredulous.“They don’t ask that question,” said Lionel Jensen, a China scholar at Notre Dame. “They’ve accepted the basic premise of aggressive modernization.”
I have heard this argument like hundred times. So what we do with these backwards civilizations and under-developed minorities? US put native americans into isolated areas called reserves, so they can stay undeveloped as they were 100 yrs ago, most of their youngs would leave, and marry to other races and integrate/dispear into main stream society. Honestly what do you think will happen to their language and culture eventually??? Thrive in their reserves???
Tibet is too big and there are 6 millions of them. You cant possibably turn Tibet into a big reserved land and put fence around it. Who’s gonna feed them? they had hard time to sustain themselves 50 yrs ago when their population was 1 million. The only way out is come along with the rest of the world, be part of it and move forward. And that’s also the only hope to their culture and civilization, if they dont want to go out like american indians.
Is this so freaking hard to understand? all the smart guys in NY times and universities dont know this? of course they do, they just wouldnt say it, because it’s political incorrect. so they continue to call ” building schools and roads” as “aggressive modernization”, yeah right…… if that’s agreesive, what do you call regime changes?
April 30, 2008 @ 2:09 am | Comment
6
By CCT
I’m glad the NY Times is diving into the issue a little bit, but I don’t really think any sort of “conclusion” is around the corner.
richard, your underlying assumption is that what the Chinese need first and foremost is “winning hearts and minds” in the West. I don’t think it’s clear at all that’s the only way forward. It is not clear to me at all that China has the ability to win hearts and minds while doing what needs to be done.
The Dalai Lama has won hearts and minds in the West not on the basis of the legitimacy of his arguments, but partly because he’s playing the role of David to China’s evil Goliath, and partly because he has nothing to lose with outlandish promises that he may or may not implement. How can China counter this movement, while still making sure that there is zero chance of a successful independence movement in Tibet?
You can call it being stuck between a rock and a hard place, if you’d like. But for the vast majority of Chinese, when given the choice between having positive relations with the West or protecting territorial integrity, the second will be overwhelmingly the top priority.
April 30, 2008 @ 2:30 am | Comment
7
By coh
Dear ChinaFronting,
Tibetan violence and terrorism is inexcusable and indefensible!
And may be my Chinese countrymen�s forcefulness is understandable and explainable.
But that doesn�t mean that we should tell our children (the youth of a nation) that any of those behaviors is the appropriate and helpful course of action to take. The current generation may have great difficulties sorting out differences and conflicts, but everyone on this planet hopes the next generation will be better and do better — not resorting to tit for tat retaliations. I want my kids to be better than that; don�t you?
Whether Dalai Lama is or is not a liar is not the issue the article is trying to make. In fact Richard chided him a little with the cross-out reference to a not so nice figure. The flow of logic does not involve America nationalism, Iraq, Dixie Chicks, nor Michael Moore, not matter how important he thinks he is. All Americans and American as a country may be a hypocrite and butcher but that doesn�t change the circumstance of actions by China and Chinese people. There is no problem poking fun at Americans at their expense; but if the issue is of serious importance to China, then distracting red herrings only hurt the Chinese people. Actually, if truth be told, one should be observant of the treatment of Chinese protesters in America and other western nations. First, they�re all allowed to protest and voice opinions regardless of government opinion. Second, while debates and arguments and violence can arise � the later is NEVER encouraged and condoned to our children by intelligent adults.
Lastly, only you can decide for yourself how you cope with your past. Anger is anger regardless who you are directing it to � ccp or west. Let go of the anger and may be you would not need to change your mind about your past, but even if you still want to think �journalism and ethics� is stupid, at least you came to the decision not relying on emotion but rationality. Good luck.
April 30, 2008 @ 2:56 am | Comment
8
By STQ
Because the angry youth is what the western media is looking for. When you have a massive, across the global, spontaneous rally, you will have someone that is abit too extreme, that’s the fact of the life. At the same time, majority of the pro-china crowd were pretty peaceful.
But after a peaceful SF rally, did you see media report anything about it? nope..me either. Because it didn’t fit into their “brainwashed angry youth” image.
April 30, 2008 @ 3:20 am | Comment
9
By STQ
and you have to agree that this article is pretty biased itself….
April 30, 2008 @ 3:24 am | Comment
10
By DJ
CCT is right:
“richard, your underlying assumption is that what the Chinese need first and foremost is “winning hearts and minds” in the West. I don’t think it’s clear at all that’s the only way forward. It is not clear to me at all that China has the ability to win hearts and minds while doing what needs to be done.”
When China and Chinese people are unfairly attacked, the first and foremost priority is to show strength, unity and hit back. Reasoning doesn’t work when a knife is pointed at you.
And frankly, with the ugly behaviors of the west, I don’t give a dime about winning their hearts and minds.
Most (i.e. I am not saying “all”) of these attackers from the west can be divided into two categories: some are ignorant and herded easily by whatever activist of the day is shouting about. These are the type of people who show up with free Tibet banners but can not even point out where it is on the map. (No kidding, Channel 4 in SF actually had such a reporting floating in youtube somewhere.) The second category consists of people who are hellbent to contain China using whatever means possible, for either racist reasons (i.e. how dare you do well) or the neocon agendas (i.e. the world must be firmly controlled by the west and particular the US).
For the first group of people, why should we bother to win over their minds when they don have any to begin with. For the second group, what’s the point?
April 30, 2008 @ 3:28 am | Comment
11
By Cao Meng De
@richard
As much as I would like to see understanding among all people and world peace, at any given time and ANY PLACE, a certain portion of the population will be made up of idiots or reasonable people committing acts of idiocy. Such is the human condition.
Having said that, China’s image has been dragged thru the mud by the Western Media for so long; unless these students start to round up foreigners on the streets of Beijing and harvest their organs, I doubt they are gonna do worse for China’s image abroad.
When you are already being consistenly compared to Nazi Germany, your image has nowhere to go but UP!
April 30, 2008 @ 3:33 am | Comment
12
By STQ
One thing I have learned in the US is when you are bullied, you need to stand up, be tough, and push back. You only start talking about reasoning and understanding after the other party has recognized your strength and stop bulling you. No one is going to negotiate with you if you are a push-over.
That is the culture of the West, which is pretty different from what we have in the East.
This might sound bad, but while I don’t agree with tactics used by some of the students, I do think that it actually will have a positive effect over the long run.
1. China’s image is already pretty beat up, it’s not like you can go much lower, what to lose?
2. Chinese in general are though to be brainwashed by the government anyway, what’s the big deal ?
3. It does remind event organizers about the possible backlash.
4. It raises the issue even in a negative way, hopefully more ppl can now realize that there are two sides of the story.
April 30, 2008 @ 3:54 am | Comment
13
By mor
“One thing I have learned in the US is when you are bullied, you need to stand up, be tough, and push back. You only start talking about reasoning and understanding after the other party has recognized your strength and stop bulling you. No one is going to negotiate with you if you are a push-over.”
Sounds pretty much like what a member of the Tibetan Youth Congress might say. The problem is, this kind of thinking, if taken to its extremes on both sides of a political dispute, only ends in bloodshed and more bloodshed. The history of mankind is full of examples. What happened to “One world, one dream” and the “harmonious society”?
April 30, 2008 @ 4:27 am | Comment
14
By DJ
@mor
The trouble was not instigated by the Chinese people. We will be reasonable when the other side becomes so.
April 30, 2008 @ 4:37 am | Comment
15
By Peanut Butter
>The trouble was not instigated by the Chinese people.
Are you sure? I remember peaceful protests having been supressed by the PSB, after which riots broke out.
April 30, 2008 @ 4:39 am | Comment
16
By STq
“I remember peaceful protests having been supressed by the PSB, after which riots broke out.”
sorry to say, but you remembered it wrong.
April 30, 2008 @ 4:46 am | Comment
17
By Herman Munster
The Chinese 20 year old’s should attempt to explain their point of view in a calm rational way.
If they could write it down legibly or communicate it coherently verbally, then that would go a long way to helping others perceive them as not be extremely selfish and immature.
Until the riots happened in Lhasa most of these chinese were not paying any attention to western media.
It is odd the media only became a problem after the riots and odd that it was not perceived as a problem before.
One family one child policy has produced some seriously bunged up kids.
For every one of the 200 million netizens in China there are 6 or 7 of the 1.1B non-netizens who would probably like to hit one of those kids with the megaphone’s ranting about french grocery stores in the head with a rock too.
April 30, 2008 @ 4:58 am | Comment
18
By AC
At first glance, this article does seem to be fair and balanced. After all, it did gave the Chinese students a voice, right?
But if you look closely, you will find that the author went into great length to discredit the students.
1) For every fact the students present (which can be easily verified by creditable western sources), the author plays innocent and tries to raise doubts in readers’ minds. For example, “abbreviated history”, “little context”, “when the Communist Chinese government asserted control”, “did not provide any means for comparison”.
2) And for every argument the students make, the author counters it with an “explanation” from the Western “Chinese experts”. Such as, “They don’t ask that questionâ€, “They’ve accepted the basic premise of aggressive modernization.â€, and to conclude the article: “Are there any genuine questions that don’t stem from a political point of view, that are really not here to be on a soap box?â€
Read the article again, how many times was the “water bottle” mentioned in the article? Get the point?
April 30, 2008 @ 5:01 am | Comment
19
By AC
It’s always Chinese’s fault if the Western media don’t portrait China fairly, isn’t it?
When can these people start to reflect on themselves? In case they don’t know, they have lost their influence on an entire generation of Chinese.
April 30, 2008 @ 5:37 am | Comment
20
By Amban
@CCT
richard, your underlying assumption is that what the Chinese need first and foremost is “winning hearts and minds” in the West. I don’t think it’s clear at all that’s the only way forward. It is not clear to me at all that China has the ability to win hearts and minds while doing what needs to be done.
I agree with you, at least if this is what “needs to be done”:
http://tinyurl.com/6gtm9e
April 30, 2008 @ 5:39 am | Comment
21
By Peanut Butter
Off-topic, but yet another example (if we needed one) on how the Chinese have rubbish PR advisers or aren’t listening to them:
“China ban Australia taking own food to Olympics”
“FORGET about Tibet and human rights – 2008 may become known as the year of the Vegemite riots following China’s ban on Australia taking its own food to the Olympic Games.
In another example of the iron-clad control Beijing is trying to exert on foreigners, Games organisers have told Australia it must source all food from within China.”
lulz
http://www.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/story/0,22049,23620515-5001021,00.html
April 30, 2008 @ 6:16 am | Comment
22
By Serve the People
Media bias
The Chinese are not the only people complaining about media bias. The conservative Republicans have been doing this for decades. It is tough if your voice is not heard.
Eventually the Republicans got the Fox news. But it took a very long time. As a short cut, I once suggested that China use its Sovereign Wealth Fund to invest in some media companies to inject its viewpoints.
Another way is to let foreign media companies enter the Chinese market so they will have a stake in China. They will then be more sensitive to their audience and worry about their images in China, like Carefour did.
April 30, 2008 @ 6:18 am | Comment
23
By ecodelta
@coh
Could not agree more with your post.
April 30, 2008 @ 6:29 am | Comment
24
By BOB
Clearly, the most effective “tools” that the Chinese have employed for “winning hearts and minds” in the West have been (1) Money; and (2) Chinese vagina. Unfortunately, this strategy may be upsetting some Chinese males.
April 30, 2008 @ 6:29 am | Comment
25
By BOB
Angry Chinese Males:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-e0VrJDywU&feature=related
April 30, 2008 @ 6:50 am | Comment
26
By PB
Maybe the Chinese government has discovered a promising new way to release some social tension steam: let youth run amok on foreign soil (just to make it clear, assault is not legitimate protest, guys).
A page from the US handbook on outsourcing political messes: “we need to fight them over there so we don’t have to fight them here.” The Chinese version might be “let them beat people up over there so they don’t do it here.”
Those evil foreign devil nations, providing educations. How dare they. Have a problem with perceptions of China? Write a letter. Start a blog. Organize a debate. The intimidation and surveillance are best left inside the PRC, or to obscure Western national security agencies who at least try to make a profession out of it.
Sorry if this post doesn’t flow well. I’ve been in Europe on business for the past few days, exhausted and haven’t followed the news (or Peking Duck) much. So I open my browser to picture of protest brawls in South Korea. Just grand! Can’t we all just agree that the Olympics (not just the ones in Beijing, but in general) are a pointless, expensive exercise in corporate self-congratulation not worth starting culture wars over, and get along?
Am I still allowed to criticize the Olympics themselves, completely apart from the China aspect? Or does that brand me a “traitor” worthy of attack? Am I still allowed to “understand” China if I think the Olympics is a blight to any urban landscape? I just want to confirm with those in sole possession of the inalienable truth whether I’m entitled to hold this opinion.
April 30, 2008 @ 7:01 am | Comment
27
By Raj
I love these sorts of brain-dead comments.
“…… You are wearing Chinese clothes and you are using Chinese goods.”
Yes – and we paid for them! If you don’t like people criticising China you can always refuse to sell us those goods.
Oh, wait – you need to sell those goods more than we need to buy them from you. So you’ll always sell them to us regardless of what we say about China.
There’s the real hypocricy.
April 30, 2008 @ 7:19 am | Comment
28
By ecodelta
Hey guys
Do you realize that all this TB, OG and TR thing have the components for a good computer video game.
Something like Grand Theft Torch 2008
Actions happens in several countries and major cities.
Criminal and political conspiracies.
Mobs actions harassing handicapped, elderly and minority persons
Exciting persecutions along streets
Hide and sick from persecutors.
Strategic planning and decisions.
Media manipulation and censure.
Brain washing techniques
Robotic goons
Young ladies in distress.
First person shooting (extinguish torch flame)
😉
April 30, 2008 @ 7:29 am | Comment
29
By SY
I went on a trip to the International Spy Museum (D.C.) in mid April. What caught my eyse was the Rosenburg Spy Case in the Cold War exhibition. My instant reaction: would this case apply to China in the same way? Yes and no. Yes the same convinction and execution (maybe not by the chair). No the overwhelming pro-“traitor” protest during and afterwards. Amd never the Rosenburg- type of Foundation or Museum would exist to make people rest, and reflect.
It’s true that nationlists are everywhere and stupid patriotism alive in every country. But how many treat “treason” like my fellow Chinese to the extent of original sin? How much they invest on patriotism as the fundamental morality and ethic standard?
Culture difference? Value difference? Gene difference? West and East difference? Could it be the DNA through our long glorious histrory from Qin to Qing, and ROC to PRC? Could it be more significant or severe when CM eutopia is gone under a CM regime and patriotism became the last straw?
As a twenty something Chinese, it is hard to resist this cultural/social/genetic/geographic tendency (whatever sociologists like to term it).
Hard, but worth trying.
April 30, 2008 @ 8:04 am | Comment
30
By Serve the People
@ecodelta
A monster under a monk’s robe.
April 30, 2008 @ 8:09 am | Comment
31
By SY
@ecodelta
Guess the game is doable.
There was news coming out yesterday that a local police bureau in Northern China launched a CS game among the officers as to “strengthen anti-terrirosm practice”.
Guess it is sellable too.
April 30, 2008 @ 8:29 am | Comment
32
By Zylvester
@PB
The Olympics is really such a big yawn, I cannot understand what anyone gets worked up about. A big fake corporate event pantomiming as something meaningful. And it has now become such a big focal point for Ch coming out party that it is obligatory for everyone to whip themselves into a frenzy.
Get rid of all the hyper professional sports from the Olympics; Soccer, bball, Tennis and many more; definitely don’t add anymore.
Ban all the robo-athletes that have been in a gold medal training factory since 5.
I cannot understand why anyone would find these choreographed opening and closing ceremonies as interesting or entertaining.
Swimming competitions are worse than watching paint drying on a wall.
Why would any country spend so much of a collectives money on building so much infrastructure in an area that is basically desert, with an awful climate, and environmentally degrading further; in doing so destroying its ancient character that was worth preserving. This money and infrastructure could have been used in a southern city which has a better future.
In writing this, I have recalled at least 1 memorable performance from Greece and Sydney, but in relation to all the effort expended, how much is worth while.
April 30, 2008 @ 8:43 am | Comment
33
By AC
Raj,
“Yes – and we paid for them! If you don’t like people criticising China you can always refuse to sell us those goods.
Oh, wait – you need to sell those goods more than we need to buy them from you. So you’ll always sell them to us regardless of what we say about China.
There’s the real hypocricy.”
The real hypocricy is that the West always blame China for exploiting the migrant workers. (i.e. human rights abuse )
I bet that’s what the student meant and the author cherry picked what he said.
April 30, 2008 @ 9:09 am | Comment
34
By AC
Official: Policeman killed in pursuit of riot leader in NW China
Notice the difference in these two reports?
Reuters
Xinhua
April 30, 2008 @ 9:22 am | Comment
35
By George Thurgood Marshall
I don’t seem much difference, except the reuters article added two statements at the end mention the link to the Dalai Lama and the protests of the Olympics. The Reuters article quoted extensively from the xinhua article.
I am sure there is a bias here that escapes me that you can reveal ad nauseum.
Let the games begin!
April 30, 2008 @ 9:39 am | Comment
36
By AC
He was shot six times. (i.e. how brutal the peaceful protester actually was)
It’s all in the details, my friend.
April 30, 2008 @ 9:47 am | Comment
37
By ChinaFronting
@coh
Of course America nationalism, Iraq, Dixie Chicks, Michael Moore IS the issue too when start talking about other’s nationalism, one thing, it goes to Credbility, another thing, maybe that’s who we are as human beings. Has it ever occured to you maybe it’s natural for chinese people react this way? would any other people react differently, I mean all peaceful and nice, “rational” and calm, when they feel attacked?
April 30, 2008 @ 10:31 am | Comment
38
By George Thurgood Marshall
It is interesting that you have attached significance to that.
Do not assume we are friends.
Too bad you were not here for the Wacko’s in Waco excitement. I am sure you would have provided some highly entertaining commentary.
One “peaceful” protestor (your characterization, I have no direct knowledge) engaged in a gun battle with more than one police officer and managed to shoot one policeman 6 times who by coincidence was Tibetan, but no one else was hurt, except the alleged riot leader, who I assume was also an ethnic Tibetan.
Xinhua reports a gun battle + two Tibetans dead = Tibetan protestors are brutal.
Your logic is irrefutable.
Good thing there are no independent observers who can confirm or deny anything, so we are left with our own imaginations to file in the details.
Six weeks after March 11 and Xinhua reports two more Tibetans are dead.
April 30, 2008 @ 11:30 am | Comment
39
By Bill
I can understand why the Chinese youth are angry. What they did shows how civilized and matured they are. We better observe them carefully so that we know what kind of people we are really dealing with.
April 30, 2008 @ 11:40 am | Comment
40
By Dan
What youths? These are adults. my father and mother since 12 or even younger years old has been the same way ever since. They are not going to grow out of anything and why us.
Also……. WHAT IS SO SPECIAL ABOUT TIBET THAT MAKES WESTERNER’s GO CRAZY??
Wow China police snarls somewhat citizen of China and yet there is no anger against the police????
It is like China just put it self into a loop hole where all there goverment actions is okay, the polution is okay, the building of Starbucks in the Forbbin City is okay, and other stuff is okay.
I mean wow they are monks and what is so diffrent about them and the ones at Timbuktu???
Are they really that Holy???
They should have marched over on the goverment office or where the police was and age war but then agian it is not China’s problem it is Tibets problem.
“A problem that westerners have the nerv to disturb the peace of the Olympics”
Wow so the stress is off Big Brother/Sister and is now on Neighbor Tibet. Lets all pit our problems on Tibeten people and not the police who attacked them to begin with.
Then again it is the Olympics and we must stand for that but not against the tanks of furry.
“Yes they are angry for the disturbance of the Olympics running.”
Wow the fact is in America Amerikans think that all Asians is one and China is top dog. Asian people is easily spoted by there hair and eyes. They tend to hang out together alot and will speak there own tounge to hide what they say or just for speaking standards. They all get into jobs by random knowledge mostly from there folks however most actually gets to do what they want. They go to school 24/7 unlike we do and have holidays no diffrent from the country they were in. They do not celebrate the same holidays we do and to be honest.
They are outcasted and the men are looked down while the women is looked up. I believe in Amerika Asians is looked down by the common US citizen in various ways. They are taken advantage of, abused, and mistreated. People think Asian people are week and carry the stereotypes in American film when in truth they are not.
Now let me go into “WWII Naszi Hitler”.
These so called 20 ( fully friky grown adults ) year olds is living here ( being college students ) knowning the truth about there status may it be good or bad and will be tyour freinds, live with you, cry with you, die with you, sigh with you, and everything non the differ.
Hwoever since I am pro for Asian concerns for those who are not I suggest looking at the idea of angry Chinese American related people like the Pro-Zionists who continue to milk funds into Israeli defense.
However nobody is up agianst China, and there is nothing to hold up since people are working together. This is all part of a fluxating market ( the human market ) that like any other will rise and fall again and again and again.
It is all a big confusion and China ( along with the rest of the Asian breed ) is toooooo biggg to contain it’s pride, sorrow, joy, or happiness for anything. Compared to places with lesser population China has seen death tolls like no other.
April 30, 2008 @ 12:13 pm | Comment
41
By snow
Anyway, even if a lot of us are not so able to take a step back and look at the bigger picture in all this, at least we are talking and thats pretty nice…So lets not hate each other around here okay?
Also, someone said above something like ” you gotta look at yourself in the mirror ” I know its a bit of commie argumentation, but at the same time, I do think it has it’s validity… Two wrongs dont make a right and the Ch.ppl should realize that… BUT, people who criticize stuff and look at others’ shortcomings, even gross crimes, would be wise to look at their own stuff as well. I know I probly dont have to tell people that… But it came to mind because this blog focusses on China, so it can be a lot for the Ch.ppl to deal with and it can let them “lose face” and stuff, so its like, it’s good to be humble…. And I also think that people who just want a cause to be part of should go read some books er do something else cause they dont help the situation… Those are the types who oversimplify and who do not actually care about people or the importance and meaning of all this…
The same goes for the “ultra nationalist” Ch.ppl. Jumping on the band wagon is not so good, it gives a bad reputation and makes a big dumb mob… So I guess I think people should know what it is they care about and the meaning of what they say and do…
An interesting point was made by Keir on the nationalists protests against the torch protesters in S.Korea… There were people rallying for human rights for the North Koreans, because the CCP’s policy is to send them back to N.Korea for extreme punishment if they escape into China. So the Chinese are fighting with them and getting mad…. What are they saying? That they are supporting the policy of hurting N.Koreans? So, it just seems so thoughtless… What exactly is the issue with the Ch. nationalists? Why do they expect to “save face” when they have a regime that commits really bad crimes? They would gain a lot by disassociating with the party, but,, brainwashing,fear…..
It also seems like it is impossible for people to get away with protests IN China, so they just makes stinks outside China… It’s like if I am terrified of a giant, so I pick fights with a guy my own size… Like how can People support CCP AND at the same time protest media bias? Does that make one bit of sense? It is really sad if they just dont care at all about people and torture and justice, but they make a big stink if someone insults their little sore spot!!!, how sick…
Can you believe that some people are suing CNN over the thugs and goons remark??? I mean, how much money would CCP owe to Americans etc if that precedent was set??? How much would they owe for Dalai Lama followers, Falun Gong, for all sorts of demonized people and groups…….
Boy, this is getting so odd…
http://nomoreccp.wordpress.com/
April 30, 2008 @ 1:51 pm | Comment
42
By snow
“””””Throwing bottles or throwing rocks cant win heart and mind, I agree, neither should rioting on the streets nor attacking a handicapped girl!Nevertheless tibetans continue to win the so called “hearts and minds” of the West.”””””
Chinafront, Would you agree that the girl in the wheelchair was not attacked but that some guy tries to disrupt torch procession and get some media attention by trying to grab the torch from the girl? The man did not seem to be attacking the girl in the wheelchair as far as what i saw… The torch was not her property and he was not after her in any sort of one on one way. He was after the whole torch ceremony. He was trying to get some attention by crossing some lines… Unfortunately the stupid media dont care about anything unless its “exciting” and the guy knew that I am assuming. I really do not think he intended to steel that silly stick…
Tibetans win the so called hearts and minds of Westerners because they are persecuted and relatively innocent. They are oppressed whether you know it or not. The CCP is tyrannical and many Westerners are aware of that and they are aware that basic human rights are denied under CCP. Thats my impression of why people support Tibetan cause for human rights…
“””””And the West felt their heart broken because DL was chanted as lier by a bunch of chinese students? give me a break! first off he is a lier, because he’s a politician, secondly where was the author when those lamas and Richard Gere shouting “China lie people die”? for the love of God they were saying a whole country is a lier.””””””
Who in the West feels broken hear over Dalai Lama stuff? Not too many people worship him in the west and even if they did, we are not as sensitive to open opinions… People can say what they want and others tolerate as long as the law is not broken… I think Westerners were just surprised at the expressions of the fenqing which they were not so much aware of…westerners are all excited I guess cause they are finding out that there is something goin on with Chinese, not because they care about Dalai Lama… IMO”
as far as lumping the whole country under the CCP… Thats a tough one. I was always saying before that the people and the regime are different.. But all we hear is CCP instilled rhetoric and party line stuff and totally unbalanced criticism of western stuff when the CCP is so very guilty but seem to have support from people.. So it is hard to distinguish sometimes .. So China lie people die, well, for now it seems that one impression people have is that China is a bunch of anti human rights commies who care only about achieving a goal, no matter who has to die under oppressing in order to beat down the path to ‘socialist paradise’ er whatever…
“”””””Grace Wang gets some death wishes, big deal! remmember what happened to Dixie Chicks and Michael Moore? any one? Some chinese teenagers calling Wang a traitor made the front line of US news papers, look at these barbaric chinese, what did this poor girl ever do …… are you kidding me? you had a freaking book called “Treason” dedicated to liberal American dissidents, written by the most poplar Ann Coulter, and it’s a best-seller, Americans love it!”””””
Micheal Moores stuff is shown on major media in the US. The Dixie Chicks were not threatened in the Grace Wang way… Lot’s of American people share their opinions and lots don’t, it’s okay, its USA, where “treason” is not the only crime in the book (if it even is in the book and if so what is it in the states???). US gov’t did not give out their parents’ citizen ID and all sorts of groups did not publish the personal info and instigate hatred and violent ranting. No one threw poo as far as I know and their parents didnt go into hiding. Their high schools did not have to go through an extra round of brainwash class, and they didnt revoke their high school diplomas… How can you make such ignorant comparison?
Yeah theres a book about treason? It’s America, theres a book about everything including a LOAD of conspiracy theories implicating the US gov’t and all sorts. Hey, guess what, USA does not throw innocent people in gulags with no trial for bogus made up crimes that implicate people who the party feels a tingly feeling about (since it is a sitting duck, waiting for someone serious to point the finger…). Okay, maybe they are afraid of radical Islamics , I do not think Bush deals with this situation well at all, so childish … But I have to say the Iraq/Muslim war, I am not up to speed on the meanings…
Also no I didnt see the bloodface, I’ll take a look at it…
And by the way Chinafront… You said that you lost your ideals cause you used to believe in Western media. Well you were naive to put some faith in some silly journalists… But Please dont give up your ideals over this trauma… Ideals are pure, and people have this pure ideal in them you and me and all.. And we have some of that corruption stuff.. Two extremes, yin and yang…
have a good night all
April 30, 2008 @ 2:25 pm | Comment
43
By east_west
I am surprised to see this topic still flying high everywhere. I did some analysis couple weeks back from a chinese expatriate’s perspective.
Just calm down, let’s face the reality:) Conflicts between different cultures are not uncommon at all and you guys should try to take an easy look at it.
Let me get it started.
1.One of the important things we need to do when an emotional wave has been generated is to explore what has exactly happened. In other words, what are the fundamental elements of this whole incident?
Of course, the first one has to be awarded to that fake monk-Tenzin Gyatso, the 14th Dalai Lama. From a pure religious perspective, it is very difficult for me to understand how he could still be called a follower of Buddhism, not to say an enlightened one. He has been, and even more so right now, so heavily burdened with an earthly, pragmatic, convoluted and manipulative political agenda that even if the Gautama Buddha indeed achieved his consummate nirvana at the first place, he would have been dragged back to this material world by such a politician-style disciple.
But no mistake, this so-called ¡°spiritual leader¡± cloak is critical for him, for his clique, and of course, for the western world. So now, let¡¯s move on to the second element- the West.
April 30, 2008 @ 2:37 pm | Comment