Raj
The Olympics have only recently kicked off, but there is already a lot to talk about. For example, Michael Phelps is bidding to win an unprecedented eight gold medals in the swimming, something that he could quite possibly do – one down, seven to go. But regardless of whether he can reach this target or not, all Americans should feel proud of him anyway – even with a “mediocre” haul this year he would still be one of the most impressive athletes ever to contest the Games.
But perhaps some of the more interesting news deals with events surrounding the Olympics. The start was tainted by the sad murder of an American tourist, Todd Bachman, by some psychopathic Chinese man, who then himself committed suicide. But what I found even more horrifying were allegations that the Chinese authorities have been trying to sweep this under the carpet.
Chinese residents who lived and worked close to the scene of the crime appeared to be under orders not to discuss the incident. ‘Why are you paying so much attention to this? Murders happen all the time. You should pay attention to the two gold medals that China won today,’ said a middle-aged woman in a flower-patterned shirt.
Yes, so long as China tops the medal table who cares if visitors to Beijing are murdered?
We can hope that the report is wrong, but what this woman said seems like a typical result of Chinese propaganda enforcement. When people are told to ignore bad news and focus on the good, comments like these slip out. The other explanation, that this was a genuine view, would be even more terrible if it reflected a wider attitude and would indicate that Chinese nationalism being whipped up by the CCP over the Olympics is now leading many Chinese people to abandon common-sense.
Then we had the eruption of conflict in Georgia, with Russian troops responding to an attempt by Tbilisi to bring the rebel region of South Ossetia under its control – thousands may have died already. There have also been reports of gun-fights and attempted bombings in Xinjiang.
In regards to overly optimistic hopes that the Olympics would lead to greater openness/freedom in China, AP reports that human rights activist Zeng Jinyan has “disappeared”.
A Chinese human rights activist whose husband was jailed earlier this year has disappeared and may have been taken by police to prevent her from speaking to journalists during the Beijing Olympics, an overseas-based human rights group said Friday.
The group, Chinese Human Rights Defenders, said Zeng Jinyan disappeared on Thursday and has not been heard from. Zeng is married to activist Hu Jia, who was sentenced to 3 1/2 years in prison in April.
I’m sure the Chinese authorities will claim that she has wandered off on his own accord and have no idea where he is. That’s CCP regional monitoring at its best – its defence to detention of people who give a damn about something other than their own interests is that it has no idea what the local authorities are doing. If that’s the supposedly “efficient” Communist autocracy that we’re repeatedly told is China’s only future, God forbid that we see chaos and incompetance from the CCP.
Furthermore it appears that anyone asking for a protest permit is being turned down – what a surprise! Indeed, it’s an even better wheeze for the Chinese authorities, as they can use the lure of Olympic protest to flush out protestors and detain/arrest them. Not unlike the way Mao used the Hundred Flowers Campaign to identify and then silence his critics and potential opponents.
A housing activist who applied for permission to hold a demonstration in Beijing’s specially designated Olympic protest zones has been detained by police. The detention of Zhang Wei, whose home was demolished two years ago to make way for an upmarket development in Beijing’s Qianmen district, highlights the Chinese government’s crackdown on dissent ahead of the opening of the games on Friday.
Police detained Ms Zhang on Wednesday for allegedly “disturbing social order”, a member of her family said on Thursday. She was told Ms Zhang would be transferred to a detention centre in south Beijing, family members said.
Yes, “distburbing social order”. Otherwise known as “highlighting the not-so-heroic actions of the Chinese ruling party” and spoiling their attempts to trick the Chinese people into think that they are practically-perfect-in-every-way. This theme is continued by the laughable assertions of Wang Wei, who said that blocking websites is “good” for Chinese people.
“That’s an assessment made by the authorities of which sites are good and which are not good for our youth. It’s like what any other country does.”
Perhaps Wang would like to tell us what websites critical of the ruling Labour Party and its policies are blocked in the UK? Conservatives.com? libdems.org.uk?
The feeble rebuttals of Jacques Rogge, IOC chief puppet, to examples of China violating its Olympic promises continue.
“But there will be a review of what happened when we come to audit the Games when they are over.”
Yes, after the Olympics are over and the CCP has already have extracted maximum propaganda effect from it, the IOC can come down hard for the 2012 Olympics to ensure that us Brits don’t block websites for criticising the UK – which we already doesn’t do…..
Does the IOC have any shame? Guess not – the flood of dollars and yuan make up for that.
Finally we have the damning comments of a former top Party official, Bao Tong, on the way China trains its athletes.
It is very naive to take the number of gold medals won as an indicator of the rise of China. That sort of patriotism…has nothing to do with the Olympic spirit…
China has sponsored a top-down professionalized system, a totally segregated approach to athletic training… It has its roots in the Chinese Communist Party’s experience of the 1927-37 Chinese civil war, when peasants who relied on the land for their existence took up arms as their revolutionary duty to fight for a share of it. In the process, they were torn away from their families, from the rest of society, and from normal economic activities…
China’s athletes are chosen as young children…and taken away from their families, from their schools, and totally cut off from normal social activities. The door is closed, and they give up their entire youth and part of their childhoods for the sole aim of entering and winning competitions, an aim for which they are totally re-molded by the system.
The whole article should be read, but I thought these comments especially good:
China’s array of medals and prizes was produced out of the sweat, tears, and lives of generations of athletes and paralympians…You can’t use the achievements of our young people to cover up or to dilute the mistakes of the country’s leaders.
That the CCP tries to do that shows its real nature. To it, any Chinese person is a “natural resource” that can be exploited in any way, at any time, to prolong its rule.
There is one clear barometer of how good a political system is. It’s no good listening to what people say; mouths are very unreliable. You have to look at what the feet are doing. A good system will attract people. People in China may be living quite happily, and foreigners may make light of traveling a thousand miles to visit. But would they want to emigrate here? When they have seen the Olympics, seen the show, and had a chance to understand Chinese people a bit better, and to compare China to their own country, then what? I am certain that while they will say a lot of nice things about China, they are not going to start flooding in to live here. Whereas Chinese people would be leaving in their tens of thousands if the opportunity was there.
Quite true.
1
By Richard
Yes, so long as China tops the medal table who cares if visitors to Beijing are murdered?
Raj, that sounds really callous, and not really fair. Yeah, the CCP sucks in many ways and China’s athletic training system is an atrocity and they cover up a lot of shit. But to paint the whole country with such a broad and damning brush… Well, it’s just not that simple. There are many aspects of the party that I now detest more than I ever did before. At the same time I recognize that labeling the entire system as evil and bad is a shallow diagnosis, especially since to many life in China has vastly improved and there is a high level of support from much of the population despite all the evil. Now, a lot of that is built on propaganda and bullshit, but about life being continuously better for many – well that cannot be disputed. Maybe the lives of many have also gotten worse, and maybe the system still hasn’t gone through the test of a true recession. A lot is uncertain and a lot is fragile and tenuous. But to see only bad and evil isn’t healthy and it isn’t realistic. Many, many bright, educated Chinese people love their country and their government, knowing it is not free of sin or malfeasance. Many see our own system as infinitely more hypocritical and deceptive. Now, I happen to disagree with them, and I think that the absence of rule of law and the built-in abuse of the disenfranchised makes the Chinese style of government particularly detestable, but…. Well, we’ve discussed all these things before too many times to count, and my simple point is that nothing is so simple. When you try to paint it in such black and white terms you weaken your own argument and come across as sounding rabid, almost gleeful in the mockery of the bad CCP.
That was kind of garbled; I’ve been living in a state of permanent jet lag the past few weeks. But I think we all know what I mean.
August 10, 2008 @ 8:47 pm | Comment
2
By Raj
Raj, that sounds really callous, and not really fair.
It was a bit harsh, but it was hardly callous – the callous comment was that quoted from the article. What I said was:
a) sarcastic;
b) about one person’s reaction.
At no point did I say “this is what all of China is like”. Clearly what one person says is what one person says. But why they say it is important. The sort of slap-dash approach the Chinese authorities take to dealing with bad news results in comments like this. And if they want to say there were no such “orders” then, as I said, logic would default to saying that this woman’s attitude is an example of what Chinese nationalism being pushed from the State has done.
When you try to paint it in such black and white terms you weaken your own argument and come across as sounding rabid, almost gleeful in the mockery of the bad CCP.
Richard, whether you want to balance things out or not is your right. But I see no positive news coming out of the Olympics in regards to the CCP’s rule of China right now. I’m not going to bring up the mantra of hundreds of millions lifted out of poverty every time there is something unpleasant going on in China or whatever, just as Chinese bloggers do not try to balance out good news they blog on by saying “of course China remains an authoritarian state and we must always think about those less fortunate than ourselves”.
For yourself, I cannot remember the last time you had anything good to say about George Bush or the War in Iraq – or do you want to assert that they are more “evil” than the CCP?
August 10, 2008 @ 9:31 pm | Comment
3
By CLC
@Raj,
Zeng Jinyan is a She.
August 10, 2008 @ 9:44 pm | Comment
4
By Raj
@ CLC
Thanks – found it.
August 10, 2008 @ 9:58 pm | Comment
5
By Richard
Raj, if you look at one of my recent comments I said Bush’s policies on immigration, until just a week or two ago, were quite good. I do give credit where it’s due. If you comb down deep I also once or twice gave Bush credit for doing more for AIDS than other presidents have. Unfortunately those positives got drowned out by the negatives. But I do try to see even Bush in a balanced way. For a few weeks, I even tried to give him the benefit of the doubt in the Iraq war, a tragic and stupid mistake on my part. Now, where have you shown balance in regard to the CCP? (This debate can’t go on for long – big day ahead.)
August 10, 2008 @ 10:41 pm | Comment
6
By Raj
Richard, fair enough in regards to Bush, though on Iraq your comments have been mostly one way from my memory.
As for my own comments, I cannot check my blogging history because the authorship of most of my entries changed to your account after the re-design (only ones subsequently written stayed up with my name). I’ve changed a few, but there’s no way I can do that for all of them.
From memory my comments on the CCP are usually critical, but that’s because I don’t see economic success as a counterweight to political oppression. If I blogged on the economy, then one would have to write on the good and the bad. But when it comes to politics and the like, that’s not possible to the same extent. You may see gradual opening up as something to celebrate or at least acknowledge, but for me given that the CCP has imposed these controls in the first place that isn’t nearly good enough.
That said, I remember one entry that I wrote some time ago praising SEPA for highlighting the fact that local officials were faking pollution data. They are part of the Chinese government, and by extension the CCP.
August 10, 2008 @ 11:23 pm | Comment
7
By B.Smith
Sometimes I feel we give way too much credit to the CCP for its recent economic success. They came to power in the 1950’s, caused all sorts of problems with their naive thinking and suppression of free thought, and starved millions of people to death due to their arrogance. They crushed China’s economy. Finally, when they decided to take a tip from the rest of the economically prosperous world, stop being stubborn, and open up their markets, everyone acts like they created some sort of miracle.
Please.
The Chinese people are responsible for lifting themselves out of poverty. Have you ever seen people work as hard as the Chinese? I haven’t. When give the opportunity and chance for success, they work like crazy. Why should the CCP get credit for the ordinary people’s work?
I don’t think Raj is out of line for highlighting the CCP’s repressive actions in this case. The CCP is wrong when it comes to the way they often treat human life, period. There’s no need to throw in an obligatory “But they fixed the economy!” (after helping to ruin it) comment.
August 10, 2008 @ 11:27 pm | Comment
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By Raj
Finally, when they decided to take a tip from the rest of the economically prosperous world, stop being stubborn, and open up their markets, everyone acts like they created some sort of miracle.
That’s very true. In many ways the CCP set China back economically by decades. Though, as “A Chinese” says below, the leadership has changed several times since then.
It depends whether one believes the CCP did things that another administration might not have been able to do for the economy, or it merely removed controls that it had imposed in the first place.
August 10, 2008 @ 11:45 pm | Comment
9
By A Chinese
B.Smith
To be honest, I am really tired of seeing westerners make distinction betweeen bad CCP and good Chinese people.
The truth is, China’s economic success owe as much to CCP’s policies as to that of Chinese people. This is especially true if you learn the huge state influence in China.Its the relationship between brain and body.
Further more, The CCP in 80s is quite different to that of 1950s. It’s easy to take as one, but treat them that way is like compare apple with banana
Your statement is really ignorant
August 11, 2008 @ 12:02 am | Comment
10
By PB
“A Chinese” makes a pretty good point. It’s not like the Party has been an ideologically consistent entity since 1949- and the battles between various factions inside it are ample evidence of that. It has evolved and adapted (in some ways) to such a point that one of its major struggles is maintaining links to its revolutionary past for purposes of legitimacy.
Take superficial propagandic continuity away from the CCP, and all you’ve got really is a large bureaucratic vessel for political power, open to capture by the leading mandarins of the day. And so it is no surprise that the Party structure has been used for both ideological madness (Mao) and frenzied capital accumulation (Jiang and Hu/Wen). I mean who else is tired of the Western media’s insistence of calling China a communist country? That joke is getting old.
And with this current crop, you can’t help but get the feeling they are hanging on for dear life as much as they are “oppressing” the Chinese people. Totalitarian they ain’t (it’s sort of hard to be totalitarian when your lower level officials don’t even listen to you).
Here is a link to an article in Der Spiegel about the societal bargain between the Chinese people (well, some of them, anyways) and those with political power. It’s a long one but well worth reading:
http://tinyurl.com/6dxcof
And here is the money quote:
“A country this large can only hold itself together if its inhabitants want to stay together. No party apparatus or system of police informers, and not a single military machine in the world, not even in China, could force 1.3 billion people to remain united against their will. This helps explain why, in the decade leading up to the Beijing Olympics, China has developed into a strange hybrid nation, a dictatorship that depends on the goodwill of its subjects, a one-party regime that can only survive by working hard to further the common good, and a country of the unspoken political deal.”
August 11, 2008 @ 12:37 am | Comment
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By Raj
Totalitarian they ain’t (it’s sort of hard to be totalitarian when your lower level officials don’t even listen to you).
I’m not sure one could ever rightly describe China or the CCP as being “totalitarian”, though it is worth noting that it is precisely because the central authorities are unable to control the localities that a number of human rights violations occur. Of course sometimes the central government itself is passing out the orders to arrest/detain/suppress/etc individuals or groups.
August 11, 2008 @ 1:10 am | Comment
12
By CLC
But what I found even more horrifying were allegations that the Chinese authorities have been trying to sweep this under the carpet.
According to the WSJ, China has dispatched some of its top officials to console the family at the hospital, including China’s Vice Foreign Minister He Yafei.
China’s President Hu Jintao personally apologized for the attack to President George Bush, who is also attending the Games, in a meeting on Sunday.
“I would like to express my heartfelt sympathy to you and the family of the victims over this unfortunate incident,” said Mr. Hu, according to the Xinhua News Agency.
August 11, 2008 @ 1:35 am | Comment
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By PB
Raj,
I’ve always thought of it as a division of labour. The national level sweats what it sees as systemic threats (calls for democracy, commemorations of symbolic events, border area/minority problems) while the lower levels get their hands dirty with more day-to-day stuff like land expropriation, collusion with business, police beatings and other such general thuggery. Given the social instability generated by the latter, however, it’s unclear how long this deal can hold.
It’s not hard to imagine Beijing genuinely trying to rein in some of its minions and re-centralizing more supervisory functions, because letting local jurisdictions completely police themselves is obviously not working.
Beijing’s biggest challenge is to force responsive gov’t structure at the lower echelons while retaining a strong, non-democratic authority at the top level to keep it all together. It needs to stop seeing absolutely every podunk town protest as a systemic threat (because most of them aren’t) and stomp down hard on land grabbing and crony capitalism. The sense I get is that many Chinese couldn’t care less if there is a democratically elected gov’t in Beijing or not, but want to see justice done to the unscrupulous officials that are hindering their quality of life directly.
Of course, the question remains: is it possible for an authoritarian gov’t to be truly responsive to its people? That is China’s great experiment, and Beijing knows it only has a small window of time to sort this out before the macro structure itself becomes threatened by discontent. I think a start would be to delink “disturbing social order” from “bringing injustice to light”.
August 11, 2008 @ 1:48 am | Comment
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By Raj
CLC, quite. That rather shows the two-faced nature of the CCP. They say sorry to the foreigners, but don’t want Chinese people talking about it. I remember someone blogging on how news agencies like Xinhua have their websites running one set of editorials for foreign consumption in English to give an impression of China’s position over disputes involving foreigners and/or foreign governments and another set for domestic reading in Chinese.
—
PB, you are right that giving local areas full autonomy over policing et al has been a failure, but it’s difficult to see how that can be reversed without political reform. In countries like the US, although the federal government keeps tabs on what happens when and where it can, it’s the voters and media who primarily keep politicians in check. It’s not foolproof, but you can’t just rely on the central authorities to keep things sorted out – they’re not omniscient. With a country like China there can only be so much central control.
Rule of law is of course the priority – you can’t have democracy without it, in any case. You are right that whistleblowers need to be left alone, but that’s the CCP for you. It is just so, so paranoid that it refuses to de-link as you suggest. But even if it were to do so, again how can it protect people’s rights if they’re not enforceable in the courts? If Chinese people’s rights are to protected when they complain about corruption, they need protection that would probably in turn keep them safe against other things, such as criticising the CCP. Otherwise any local authority would claim that the people in question were criticising the Party because they were somehow implying they had no control of the situation, whatever it might be.
August 11, 2008 @ 2:21 am | Comment
15 Posted at zju.2008.163.com
[…] 今天，Peking Duck贴了一篇对奥运会的感想《Olympic round-up》。我读后觉得，只要有这篇文章就够了，其他评论都可以不必写了。我希望大家去看全文，我在这里只摘录一段。 […]
August 11, 2008 @ 5:10 am | Pingback
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By Tue
Look man, you CANNOT not call the chinese state totalitarian for the reason that it’s ideological presence permeates every level of the chinese society, and does that in a way which aims at the thorough conditioning of it’s subjects. Just take one look at the educational system and there you have a prime example of an attempt at capturing and controlling (totally) the FEELINGS and minds of the citizens ( the tried and true formula that is brainwashing by populism ) . I would like to think, and in small part I even believe it, that there are some small pockets where more “enlightened” and free methods of education call the day, or where radical freethinkers jump the fence, but alas, taking the larger perspective I know what an exception that would be.
By the by and to be absolutely clear; totalitarianism is in fact a thing of many masks, and I’m not oblivious to the many ways in which my own part of the world is permeated by it’s doings… It’s part and parcel of the human condition after all…
August 11, 2008 @ 6:23 am | Comment
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By CLC
That rather shows the two-faced nature of the CCP. They say sorry to the foreigners, but don’t want Chinese people talking about it.
I am not sure that’s the case. According to the NYT, “Although the killing received only modest coverage in the Chinese media, it has been widely discussed among local residents …” and “The killing has provoked hand-wringing and heated debate on the Internet.”
August 11, 2008 @ 6:29 am | Comment
18
By Peter
Why are you paying so much attention to this? Murders happen all the time. You should pay attention to the two gold medals that China won today.
When that Free Tibet protester climbed a lamppost, the reporter who arrived was told that he was only here to cover the Olympics and no doubt this is something we’ll hear again if and when another incident occurs.
If Beijing residents have been told that then you can’t really blame that woman for being tight lipped, although her choice of words could hardly have been worse. I hope she doesn’t really think that China’s 2 gold medals are worth more than somebody’s life, because that is what she has just said to the rest of the world.
August 11, 2008 @ 7:26 am | Comment
19
By fred
Richard said: “I recognize that labeling the entire system as evil and bad is a shallow diagnosis, especially since to many life in China has vastly improved and there is a high level of support from much of the population despite all the evil.”
Yes, Richard, the trains run on time.
Damn, you can suck.
August 11, 2008 @ 7:57 am | Comment
20
By HongXing
Nothing will spoil my mood, whatever you guys say!
Most American friends absolutely wowed at the opening ceremony. NBC news anchor said “Yes, there will be problems during the olympics, but there’s no denying that they have delivered an fantastic show tonight.”
Today, the games between USA and China basketball were played very friendly and nicely (even though China lost by 30). There were a very moving document about Yao Ming. And another episode about how China defied the Soviet Union and joined the L.A. Olympics without boycotting.
My friends, American, Italian, Japanese, almost EVERYONE was very very pleased with the games so far. This is 3 weeks for which at least we can acknoledge the basic decency in human beings. Like the Visa ad said: “We are all humans, and when they win, we win. Go World.”
Even the most hardened and cynic man will be at least slightly moved during the opening ceremony and for the rest of these 3 weeks. Even Fa Lun Gong, these days, did not have that many people lining up the streets of New York’s Flushing to distriubute their posters. Even they, even they, have the basic human understanding of the meaning of this to Chinese. You go to Chinatown, to every restaraunt, every supermarket, EVERYONE, is talking about the latest game results, and EVERYONE’s face had a big smile on it. Like you can stand in a line in a supermarket and just start to chat up with a stranger in line about the latest events. An atmosphere I have not seen before. Mainlanders, Taiwanese, Hongkongese, Malays, everyone.
Enjoy the games everyone! Enjoy the games!
August 11, 2008 @ 8:19 am | Comment
21
By Richard
B.Smith: Sometimes I feel we give way too much credit to the CCP for its recent economic success.
In case that is directed at me, I want to be clear that I have never, not once, said the CCP is responsible for China’s economic “miracle” or whatever one chooses to call it. Not once. It happened while they were in power, and as any government would do they claimed the credit. But my argument has always been that the economic improvement occurred despite of the CCP, not because of it.
Tue, thanks for the excellent comment: ; totalitarianism is in fact a thing of many masks, and I’m not oblivious to the many ways in which my own part of the world is permeated by it’s doings… It’s part and parcel of the human condition after all…
When we look at Gitmo and Blackwater and the blatant corruption and criminal wrongdoings of the current US government, you see elements of totalitarianism. But the US is not totalitarian. China is not totalitarian. It’s hard to say what it is. It’s system is authoritarian and frequently it’s quite liberal, and just as frequently it’s downright totalitarian. It can sometimes be a true police state, with the arrest and torture of its citizens almost at whim. I used to believe Chins was totalitarian until I moved back and really lived here. Now that I’m so knowledgeable and China-savvy, I can safely say I don’t know what China is, at least not in a way that I can describe it with a single word like “totalitarian.”
Raj: I cannot remember the last time you had anything good to say about George Bush or the War in Iraq – or do you want to assert that they are more “evil” than the CCP?
As I thought about it Raj, your comparison last night of your criticizing China to the way I criticize Bush or the Iraq war is bogus. Bush is not the US government. I have said countless times that the US government is full of dedicated people many of whom truly want to see people’s lives improve, to prosecute evil and help prevent wars. (Have you ever given the CCP credit like that?) Then there are the slackers and the seat-warmers and then there are the corrupt and the venal. Like nearly every government on the planet. Bush to me, of the others hand, is 90 percent bad, an aberration, some sort of freakish accident. China’s government, too, is full of wonderful people – I mean salt of the earth. It’s also got some monsters and criminals. Due to its antique system of non-accountability and ruling by decree and crushing anyone perceived as a “enemy,” it’s bound to have a lot more badness than a system like America’s where checks and balances usually result in at least some form of justice until Boy George was given free rein to put the Constitution in the litter box. My simple point being that you condemn the Chinese government unconditionally as evil and awful. I never say that about either the US or China. Never. I may say Li Peng is a monster and George Bush is a freak. But to put the entire government in one box and label it as evil is painfully simplistic and indicates a serious lack of understanding of what’s going on in China at the moment. A lot of bad things and several good things. It’s not one or the other. And at the end of the day, remember the Chinese people. It’s their government. Whether they should or shouldn’t admire their government is irrelevant – many of them do, and to them it’s offensive to see someone oceans away categorically label their government as wicked and bad. I constantly point out the wickedness and badness when I see it. But I also try to point out improvements and the other side of the story. For that, people who are ideological and closed-minded on the topic see me either as a China hater or a China lover, with no in-between. Which is fine – I would rather be hated by both factions, as the fenqing’s religious ecstasy over their government and the other side’s obsessive hatred of all things China are equally distasteful to me.
August 11, 2008 @ 8:27 am | Comment
22
By B.Smith
@A Chinese, #9:
I am well aware that the CCP of today is not the same as the CCP of 40, 30, or even 20 years ago. The fact remains that the Communist Party continues to take full credit for the enormous economic successes in China, while downplaying or even prohibiting the discussion of their enormous mistakes.
It’s easy to take as one, but treat them that way is like compare apple with banana
The Party has treated themselves as one, in order to take credit for anything good that has happened in the last 60 years, and to legitimize their claim on power. If the Party sees itself as continuous, who are you to disagree?
I’m not saying everyone in the CCP is an evil, freedom-hating Commie. Of course there are some good people in the CCP, and the CCP has finally started to take steps forward (after taking many more steps backward). That said, I still believe the net influence of the Party is negative. Economic success is not all that matters. On the other issues – religious freedoms, land-grabbing from peasants, free speech rights, etc. – the CCP has a long way to go.
August 11, 2008 @ 8:54 am | Comment
23
By Lindel
President Idiot is being interviewed by Bob Costas of NBC. He says everything is “hunky dory”.
August 11, 2008 @ 9:04 am | Comment
24
By Serve the People
Here is my simplistic understanding of world political and economic systems.
If you want 10 percent annual GDP growth rate, adopt the Chinese system; if you are happy with 5 percent growth, stay with the US system; if all you need is 2 percent growth, the European one is the best.
There is not a single political system that can give you everything. It all depends on your investment objectives. The Chinese way makes you rich fast, but you have to sacrifice some personal liberty, universal health care and free higher education.
August 11, 2008 @ 11:40 am | Comment
25
By Jeremiah
STP,
子曰君子喻於義小人喻於利.
August 11, 2008 @ 11:51 am | Comment
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By Scott Loar
Serve the People;
If you want a 10 percent annual GDP growth rate be a low-ranking developing country with a low capital base and relatively cheap labour for assembly work like those previously: Korea, Taiwan, Hong Kong, Singapore, Malaysia, et.al. 10%+ growth is not a miracle, it’s pretty standard. With low value being added the hard times come when the advantages of low production costs based on labour and cheap materials begin to migrate to yet another up-and-coming economy, like India. If you are a fully industrialized country with 94% employment and a 4-5% percent annual growth rate then you are doing great, just great, and have a level of productivity and volume of output that is the envy of the world.
I said elsewhere, in Asia the rise of the Four Tigers in the 70’s and now China rested in great part on the overseas consumer demand for cheaper goods which these developing countries met, instigated by overseas buyers and then investors in plants and machinery. It is not the wisdom of government that may make Chinese auto parts or electronics world-class but the need of buyers for low-cost componentry or finished goods and their subsequent transfer of technology or systems when necessary for production to meet the quality standards prevalent in the country of import. So, too, the rise of Shenzhen owed less to Deng Xiaoping and more to the Hong Kong shirt manufacturers who mooted quotas imposed on Made in Hong Kong by setting up shop just across the border to take advantage of the greater quotas afforded to Made in China shirts.
“The Chinese way” (is there such a thing? Only for those with no memory or knowledge of the region) does not make you rich fast, look at that nation’s per capita income and wealth distribution compounded by long-term environmental and societal problems that will cost big, big bucks.
Jeremiah, yeah, Confucius also said 君子固窮 but didn’t consider it a necessary nor even desirable state.
August 11, 2008 @ 12:32 pm | Comment
27
By Raj
Bush is not the US government. I have said countless times that the US government is full of dedicated people many of whom truly want to see people’s lives improve, to prosecute evil and help prevent wars. (Have you ever given the CCP credit like that?)
It is not possible to credit the CCP like that because it is closed and in government presents as unified a face as possible. When was the last time a minister resigned from the Chinese government in protest of policy, proposed something that deviated from “agreed policy”, etc? I am sure that there are people with good intentions, but if one is merely “assuming” that they’re there then that’s different.
China’s government, too, is full of wonderful people – I mean salt of the earth.
Who would that be? And I mean it. I’m not saying that there aren’t, but I’d like to know who they are and why you can say that – i.e. what they have done to deserve it. I might think better of Wen Jiabao than Hu Hintao, but I cannot say that I regard him very well as he only differs on presentation, not policy.
But to put the entire government in one box and label it as evil is painfully simplistic and indicates a serious lack of understanding of what’s going on in China at the moment.
Again, I haven’t done that – it is you who is being overly simplistic in characterising my comments. I may be generally negative, but when there is as far as I can see nothing good politically to blog on then that’s too bad. I have never used the word “evil” to describe the CCP or the Chinese government. Some of the small “developments” keep getting exposed as being meaningless words and/or short-term responses to problems on the ground, not shifts in policy.
Furthermore the CCP extends far further than the government.
Whether they should or shouldn’t admire their government is irrelevant – many of them do, and to them it’s offensive to see someone oceans away categorically label their government as wicked and bad.
It is irrelevant, because I’ve never said what Chinese people should do. And I don’t label their government, I discuss primarily what the ruling party does. One can praise an aspect of the government and thus the Party, but criticising the Party does not mean the entire government.
But I also try to point out improvements and the other side of the story.
Next time you see a positive story on politics in China (and I mean a real development), please e-mail it to me and suggest I write an entry on it. You might want to do that yourself, but I can’t write “positive” entries if you take the story up first. Not to accuse you of doing so, but I’m not going to trapse through news reports on a daily basis to look for something “good” to write on.
August 11, 2008 @ 3:35 pm | Comment
28
By Raj
CLC
I am not sure that’s the case.
Then why was this woman reportedly told to pretend it didn’t happen? The CCP can TRY to shut people up, but it can’t do much about people talking about it on the internet – bar the usual tactic of getting internet flunkies to shift the discussion elsewhere (closing forums would be too risky given the Olympic expectations).
August 11, 2008 @ 3:39 pm | Comment
29
By Si
@stp
“Here is my simplistic understanding of world political and economic systems.
If you want 10 percent annual GDP growth rate, adopt the Chinese system; if you are happy with 5 percent growth, stay with the US system; if all you need is 2 percent growth, the European one is the best.”
i think you destroyed all credibility with that comment.
@raj
i think the most interesting comment was “people get murdered all the time”. where do they get murdered all the time? in beijing?
August 11, 2008 @ 3:40 pm | Comment
30
By Andy R
“Beijing’s biggest challenge is to force responsive gov’t structure at the lower echelons while retaining a strong, non-democratic authority at the top level to keep it all together.”
Here’s my simplified solution:
1. Popularly elected officials up to the county level (gives the people a more responsive and responsible local government)
2. Parliamentary style elections for the central government (the CCP would win for years anyway, and people would at least have the chance to “turn the tiller” if things overall are headed in the wrong direction)
3. Appointments of provincial leaders on down to the prefecture level leaders (keeps the whole mess under the influence of the central government)
4. Of course, it all has to be bolstered by rule of law and an independent court system (could be a mixture of elected judges and appointments like we have in the States)
Heck you could even have a requirement that to be elected you have to be a member of the CCP! (at least people would be able to make a decision on who leads them, and potentially remove bad officials from the Party)
August 11, 2008 @ 4:43 pm | Comment
31
By Raj
Si
i think the most interesting comment was “people get murdered all the time”. where do they get murdered all the time? in beijing?
I know. China is supposed to have a low murder rate at least by head of population. Was this woman suggesting that’s not the case, or that Beijing accounts for a large number of them? Or just that people get killed around the world in various places?
August 11, 2008 @ 5:23 pm | Comment
32
By Raj
Further news on the “cover-up”.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/asia/article4503453.ece
August 11, 2008 @ 5:33 pm | Comment
33
By bigdog
So, this discussion has gone from the Games to a discussion of China’s political system.
Unfortunately, the moderators deleted my comment that was actually related to the Games.
Come on, the Olympics are by their nature a political event – Berlin, Moscow, Seoul, and now Beijing,
What else can you have when you have the people that are that committee?! They are a joke.
August 11, 2008 @ 5:37 pm | Comment
34
By Richard
Bigdog, a comment of yours was deleted? What did it say? I didn’t see any comments in my moderation queue, so that’s disturbing. Please re-post. And send me by email.
August 11, 2008 @ 7:03 pm | Comment
35
By Shijieren
Live in China long enough, and we’ll all become schizoid. I don’t mean that in a negative way. When I saw China from afar, I saw it fairly unidimensionally (Red Dragon, Pure Evil, in the way that Raj evidently does), but over the past three years, seeing it as an “insider”, I confess to being conflicted – as I suspect Richard is sometimes. I find myself criticising China’s lack of openness (on politics, media, law etc.) when I hear anyone offer gush about how Chinese people are always happy, and why it’s sign they don’t really need democracy and making money trumps everything; but I also find myself spiritedly challenging analyses (particularly by faraway analysts) that see China as the Red Dragon, Pure Evil etc.
The fact is: China is a bit of both. Neither view in itself offers a complete picture. Which is why I say we’ll all be schizoid (if we’re intellectually honest with ourselves).
BTW, Richard (wrt your message to Bigdog above): if I did want to send you a private e-mail, to which ID would I have to send it? (If you don’t want to post it here, you could always send it to me at my mail ID)
August 11, 2008 @ 7:31 pm | Comment
36
By Shijieren
Oops. Just realised, you have a link to your mail ID. Ignore that portion of my earlier comment.
August 11, 2008 @ 7:32 pm | Comment
37
By Raj
bigdog, for the record I didn’t see your original message, let alone delete it. I’m sure it was just a technical problem.
August 11, 2008 @ 8:09 pm | Comment
38
By Raj
Shijieren, thanks for your gracious comment, but I don’t see China as “pure evil” – I wouldn’t even use the term “evil” to describe the Chinese Communist Party. Note that the CCP does not equal China.
If you ask my friends they would tell you that I have only bad things to say about the Labour Party, but I don’t think they’re “evil” either.
August 11, 2008 @ 8:37 pm | Comment
39
By Marc
The Olympics opening ceremony isn’t a failure by any measure, but I can’t say it’s a success, either. Those of you patriotic Chinese should check out what other expat Chinese have to say on this subject. See http://www.CND.org. This site has some real Chinese thinkers. You might learn something there.
August 11, 2008 @ 10:04 pm | Comment
40
By PB
The lowlight of Olympics coverage so far has got to be President Bush’s appearance on NBC last night. I can’t recall the last time I saw a head of state so uncomfortable in front of cameras, it was almost uneasy to watch. I think he is as anxious to get out of office as many others are to see him go!
August 11, 2008 @ 11:39 pm | Comment
41
By fatbrick
It just amazed that Raj has go all the way to write this post. Get a life dude.
August 12, 2008 @ 1:54 am | Comment
42
By HongWang
>>‘Why are you paying so much attention to this? Murders happen all the time. You should pay attention to the two gold medals that China won today,
There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that if a Chinese citizen were murdered at the Olympics in Atlanta that the Chinese media and the Chinese people would ignore it and focus instead on gold medals won by the USA.
How could anyone doubt that?
August 12, 2008 @ 3:48 am | Comment
43
By bert
“The lowlight of Olympics coverage so far has got to be President Bush’s appearance on NBC last night. I can’t recall the last time I saw a head of state so uncomfortable in front of cameras, it was almost uneasy to watch.”
What are you talking about? He didn’t look uncomfortable at all. Maybe you are talking about another NBC interview? I think he did quite well in the interview, it was very informal and easy going.
How many heads of state in the whole world would have such an informal sit down chat about sports and current events? I’d love to see a Chinese head of state be so vulnerable.
August 12, 2008 @ 5:30 am | Comment
44
By nanheyangrouchuan
People can debate what the CCPee did or did not do for China’s economic growth, but no one can deny the massive environmental damage that the CCPee has created through its “growth at all costs” policies as well as the crushing of anyone who raises a flag about pollution. Now China’s domestic food is so bad that it has to lease farmland in other countries, to say nothing of the water.
Beijing is either going to dry up and blow away or be swallowed by the sand.
August 12, 2008 @ 9:07 am | Comment
45
By stuart
“How many heads of state in the whole world would have such an informal sit down chat about sports and current events? I’d love to see a Chinese head of state be so vulnerable.”
on this point I’m in total agreement. Visiting world leaders are routinely put through the mill by an audience of Peking University students. When is Hu Jintao going to get the balls to answer direct and unprepared for questions from such an audience while the world looks on?
Exactly.
August 12, 2008 @ 1:00 pm | Comment
46
By Oracle Bones
deleted
Interesting, “Oracle Bones,” that I found your entire description of totalitarianism, word for word, over here. That is really trashy of you.
Richard
August 12, 2008 @ 3:54 pm | Comment
47
By wayaround
its good to have rational criticise, but i damn sure can smell some sort of sour loser tone or mabye slightly bit of racism as well only because chinese team are doing better in Olypmic Games.
honestly, both japan and korean use the similar system to train the athletes for Olympic Games, and Germany is going to learn this system as well,anyway , its just a game, even if china topped the first place that does not mean china is biggest power in the world, everyone knows that, including ordinary chinese, i think they are just enjoying bit of fun and gain some confident, which country does not??? i saw english, scottish and welsh national flags are everywhere as well and people are excited and confident if their national team won, whats wrong with that, big deal!!!
and go and check the indian people when the first indiviual won the first ever Olympic gold medal, how happy indian are, so whats wrong with that either? can’t people have the right to feel happy and confident? not to mention American with their national flags all over?
August 12, 2008 @ 4:09 pm | Comment
48
By Richard
lamb chops:Beijing is either going to dry up and blow away or be swallowed by the sand.
Does the idea give you pleasure?
August 12, 2008 @ 5:17 pm | Comment
49
By Raj
@ wayaround
both japan and korean use the similar system to train the athletes for Olympic Games
Japan and South Korea (the North is a weird place) both pluck potential athletes as children from their families and cut them off from normal society? According to whom?
Germany is going to learn this system as well
According to which news agency?
i think they are just enjoying bit of fun and gain some confident, which country does not?
I can promise you that the final medal tally for the UK will be met by general indifference from the wider population, even if individual performances are celebrated. There will be no “confident” boost whether the final results are good or bad.
and go and check the indian people when the first indiviual won the first ever Olympic gold medal, how happy indian are, so whats wrong with that either?
Did anyone say Chinese, Indians or anyone else cannot be glad of winning medals? I think the criticism of Bao Tong was that the Chinese government is trying to take credit for the hard work of young athletes and distract people’s attention from its mistakes.
August 12, 2008 @ 8:41 pm | Comment
50
By sp
My party comrades will not rest unless the “Blue Sky, White Sun, Red ground” flag of the Republic of China is hoisted in the Olympics!
Both the DPP and the CCP share the common goal to undermine and deny the existence of the Republic of China. What a shame.
August 12, 2008 @ 9:31 pm | Comment
51
By Not_a_Sinophile
Talk about inconsequential. The Olympics are nothing more than a show put on for people with nothing to do but sit on their fat rear ends. Zhang Yimou can’t direct his way out of a paper bag these days without an unlimited budget and thousands of extras….what a hack. As for the medal count….who cares? The athletes are nothing more than a bunch of steroid cases “competing” in sports for which they spend their entire waking hours practicing. It’s a shame that the world can’t put such efforts into things like food production, health care, or energy independence.
The building of the Olympic venues and the money wasted in the entire Olympic effort is exactly like what the Empress Dowager did when she built the summer palace…..pure folly.
August 12, 2008 @ 10:43 pm | Comment
52
By Richard
The Summer Palace is quite nice, I always thought.
August 12, 2008 @ 10:57 pm | Comment
53
By Raj
The Summer Palace is quite nice, I always thought.
It is, but then again we haven’t had to live with the consequences of Cixi’s building works. Although I don’t think it has been completed proven, there is a strong claim that she diverted large sums of money from the Beiyang Fleet for rebuilding and expanding the Summer Palace – such that it was easily defeated in the following war.
I doubt you’d be especially pleased if the first thing Obama did as president was to strip the US Navy of funds so that he could build a pleasure complex for himself and lost a major conflict as a result. 😉
August 12, 2008 @ 11:29 pm | Comment
54
By Raj
The athletes are nothing more than a bunch of steroid cases
Meh, I know where you’re coming from – these days it is very difficult to tell who is clean and who isn’t. But I think for things like the equestrian you won’t find the riders or horses being doped up – a horse on anything other than good feed would be unlikely to get past the dressage….
August 12, 2008 @ 11:38 pm | Comment
55
By Lindel
when hu jin tao came to washington dc in 2006 he answered written questions from the audience at the dinner reception held for him that i attended. he could still answer some hard questions in a western press conference, but GW is exactly performing so well in press conferences him self.
bob costas was throwing GW some soft pitches, with a few real questions thrown in that most likely were agreed to in advance so GW could go on record making some “tough” statements about religion in china and how tough he was with putin over the invasion of georgia for consumption by the true believers back home in hickville usa.
it was an extremely pathetic performance by a clown who has been in office 4 years too long.
the democrats can make an effective campaign commercial by replaying GWs interwiew with scenes of him talking to putin at the opening ceremony spliced with scenes of russian tanks rolling through georgia while scrolling how much money the bush administration has spent in russian since GW went for a walk on the beach with his soul mate putin on that other georgia beach sea island usa during the wonderful G-7 meeting in 2005, when putin played GW for the fool he is by greenlighting the un resolution on Iraq GW wanted in exchange for spending a bunch of US taxpayer dollars in russia and letting russia into the club and making it the G-8.
August 13, 2008 @ 12:54 pm | Comment
56
By Raj
he answered written questions from the audience at the dinner reception held for him that i attended
Written questions are no guarantee of putting people on the spot, as they CAN be pre-arranged to be safe or already known to the person in question.
August 13, 2008 @ 2:59 pm | Comment
57 Posted at www.billblog.cn
[…] 今天，Peking Duck贴了一篇对奥运会的感想《Olympic round-up》。我读后觉得，只要有这篇文章就够了，其他评论都可以不必写了。我希望大家去看全文，我在这里只摘录一段。 […]
August 27, 2008 @ 5:44 pm | Pingback