Hhhmmm…. Another apology?

August 13, 2008 @ 2:09 pm | Comment

I don’t think apologies are enough – compensation should be paid for the assault too.

August 13, 2008 @ 3:11 pm | Comment

When are the Chinese authorities going to realize that these kind of responses only serve to increase the world’s attention to the protester’s causes? These protesters certainly aren’t winning over any converts from the Chinese, why not let them protest? The current approach only increases their visibility and causes China to loose face overseas, for 1.breaking Olympic promises of openness, and 2.presenting China as incredibly insecure and aggressive.

The CCP’s response is much worse for China than anything these protesters could do.

August 13, 2008 @ 3:55 pm | Comment

Why in blazes would they allow any protest zones to begin with?
Why not just have police around the area and have then protest without disturbing the peace???
What is so special about Tibet??? The shaolin monks??? Western Buddism???
Is China really in control of most of Asia asides other countries???

Or is this just the same thing that has continued threwout China since the original Chinese was chased out of there own country by whome again?

August 13, 2008 @ 5:06 pm | Comment

Why not just have police around the area and have then protest without disturbing the peace???

Because the Chinese government doesn’t want ANY protests anywhere.

August 13, 2008 @ 5:46 pm | Comment

Shaolin monks are nowhere near Tibet. Buy a map.

Why does this not report that the journalist was almost immmediately released. Less dramatic, perhaps?

August 13, 2008 @ 6:18 pm | Comment

Why does this not report that the journalist was almost immmediately released.

Read the article:

After his release some 30 minutes later

August 13, 2008 @ 7:43 pm | Comment

The chinese authorities should just let those free-Tibet-wacka-wacka protest as much as they want. The more they angry the chinese citizen, the more support the government is going to get from the Chinese.

Further I would like to suggest the students to have some PETA-style protests. U know, nacked white girls means fuuull attention of the Chinese.
Would love to see that at Tiananmen.

August 13, 2008 @ 8:15 pm | Comment

Proving yet again the sheer stupidity of Chinese police and their thuggish methods. Here is the the typical Chinese policeman: wearing an ill fitting uniform with scuffed shoes, sitting in or leaning on a variety of different police vehicles (whatever the local chief was able to extort out of the car dealership), smoking. That’s it. That about all they are good for.

When the revolution comes, the police will be the first targets to fall. Each revolutionary should pick one to eliminate. Maybe the whole thing could be coordinated with a national cell phone message. “Take one out….NOW!”

August 13, 2008 @ 10:19 pm | Comment

It sounds like this idiot purposely hid his press credentials in order to get confused with the protesters.

Cheap Western journalist trick.

He should go to Xinjiang and pretend he’s a protesting Uigur. Then if he gets shot he’ll have a nice story.

August 13, 2008 @ 10:59 pm | Comment

The Western “Free Tibet” crowd is really starting to get on my nerves. Not that I don’t acknowledge there are some serious problems in that region that need to be sorted out, but I just find their protest style increasingly off-putting. There must be a better way than these publicity stunts reeking of self-importance. Like numerous people have commented on here already, the grand total effect on the general Chinese populace is somewhere around, uhm, zero. The Han need some love too, people!

August 13, 2008 @ 11:01 pm | Comment

Like numerous people have commented on here already, the grand total effect on the general Chinese populace is somewhere around, uhm, zero.

They’re not trying to appeal to the Chinese people, because they know the Chinese people back the government as much as anyone can on a policy issue. They’re trying to embarrass China and use the Olympics’ media coverage.

August 13, 2008 @ 11:37 pm | Comment

You have to wonder how coordinated these things really are behind the scenes. Was it a knee jerk reaction. official policy. did they have hu on the phone while it was going down. local psb team wanted something from the central government in return for releasing the guy.

still they should consider what would have been wrong if instead of doing what they did they had instead dispatched smiling chinese security people to quietly disperse the protestors after they had their fun for a few minutes and then ask the journalist to politely move on and not incite a large disturbance and then firmly move him on if he disagreed.

August 14, 2008 @ 12:32 am | Comment

Channel 4 had coverage of some of what happened. It showed the reporter in the Police van trying to talk to the camera crew outside and then being shoved back inside by a policeman. When he tried to ask what was going on and showed his press pass, it was batted away and the policeman didn’t seem interested.

Either that man was a retard (because I’m sure he would have been told by his superiors what the passes looked like), or he knew it was a press pass but didn’t care.

August 14, 2008 @ 3:08 am | Comment

Raj:They’re not trying to appeal to the Chinese people, because they know the Chinese people back the government as much as anyone can on a policy issue. They’re trying to embarrass China and use the Olympics’ media coverage.

———-
Haha,I can not help but laughing. Embarrass China? So be it. The more the better!

They will eventully reveal the true face of West and turn Chinese people into disillusion. You know, thanks to censorship and China’s state run media, many Chinese inside China still believe West is good, West is teacher, and the source of truth.

But they will, again, ask a question that Mao Zedong asked before, “how come this great teacher bullies his student all the time?”,no matter what his student did.

It is no surprise that the most nationalistic Chinese are these who has Western experience, study and live abroad.

They know West better, they watch Western media

August 14, 2008 @ 3:35 am | Comment

But they will, again, ask a question that Mao Zedong asked before, “how come this great teacher bullies his student all the time?”,no matter what his student did.

Since when was criticism “bullying”? It is China who bullies Tibetans – European and American protesters are in no position to bully China.

August 14, 2008 @ 5:07 am | Comment

A Chinese said, “It is no surprise that the most nationalistic Chinese are these who has Western experience, study and live abroad.”

Proof for this?

I would say the most nationalistic Chinese are usually the most educated. Their nationalism is homegrown.

August 14, 2008 @ 8:34 am | Comment

I don’t know if there’s scientific proof, but if this blog’s comments are any indication, there’s a strong case for A Chinese’s assertion. If I had the time or motivation I could chart the level of nationalism among particular commenters and map it to their respective geographies and I am pretty sure of what I’d find.

August 14, 2008 @ 8:45 am | Comment

I’m not sure about scientific proof, but I suspect that the Hai Gui react to things differently than do those who have never left the country. Along those lines, there is an interesting article in this week’s Newsweek International on the subject of nationalism and overseas Chinese.

August 14, 2008 @ 8:49 am | Comment

“It is no surprise that the most nationalistic Chinese are these who has Western experience, study and live abroad.”

No; it’s the manifestation of their CCP-nurtured guilt for having sought a better education in a free society. Without an over-the-top, nationalistic demonstration of loyalty upon their return they fear being treated the same way as John Ray.

Chinese police are thugs. Anyone who’s spent some time in the country will have no doubt about this. I’m sure the culture of obedience plays its part in this, but beating people up for speaking out appears to be a big part of their game plan.

It’s not civilised; is has nothing to do with the harmonious society and peaceful rise we keep hearing about; and it’s counter to the promises Beijing made to secure the Games in the first place.

August 14, 2008 @ 9:58 am | Comment

“It is no surprise that the most nationalistic Chinese are these who has Western experience, study and live abroad.”

It is no surprise – its commonly seen that the most extreme are the ones who had left their roots – whatever you want to call it.

As an example, a lot of the most fervent evangelicals in the US are ones who had fallen the furthest (but then again, a lot of them are hypocrites too.)

August 14, 2008 @ 10:41 am | Comment

It is no surprise that the most nationalistic Chinese are these who has Western experience, study and live abroad.

It seems that more often than not, the most radical Islamists have lived or studied in Western countries too.

The Free Tibet protesters are obviously hoping that the Chinese authorities will be provoked into making a heavy-handed response in front of the world’s press. The best the police can do is avoid playing along with that.

August 14, 2008 @ 11:09 am | Comment

From the CNN video, it is clear the journalist was not part of the protetors. Even with all foreigners looking alike, he clearly stood out. And he was driven away after he showed his press pass. If anyone is interested … it was available to view on CNN’s website.

August 14, 2008 @ 12:11 pm | Comment

But every day there’s a new thing comin
The ways of an oriental view
The sheriff and his buddies
With their samurai swords
You can even hear the music at night

And though its a part of the lone star state
People dont seem to care
They just keep on lookin to the east

Talkin bout the china grove
Oh, china grove

August 14, 2008 @ 2:26 pm | Comment

Raj:Since when was criticism “bullying”? It is China who bullies Tibetans – European and American protesters are in no position to bully China.
————-
Since you are not a Chinese, do you have any idea how many verbal assault we have experienced?!!

We saw our nation be treated like rubbish, as if it is a hell to live, we saw our national flag being burned, we were told it’s better to turn against each other, to mock up, to behave like a joker, because that’s the only way that West could accept us, do you have any idea what am I talking about?

Yes, criticsm is fine, but there is a fine line between criticsm and cynicism.

Anyway, I have lived in the West long enough to be used to these sort of things. But I really find it painful and difficult to explain to the new arrivals, like students. They imaged a West that is the source of truth, morality and technology before they leave China, but once they truely have encounters with Westerners, watch TV, read newspaper, they all reach the same conclusion:这些洋人对中国有很深的成见，总是戴着有色眼镜看中国。他们总是把我的家乡说的一无是处。

Anyone please translate this?
Thank you

Btw, Raj,if you can read Chinese, I recommand you to go to some oversea Chinese internet forum that is free from censorship. It will give you an idea how the so called “criticsm” is received within the mainstream oversea Chinese community.

The thing is, criticsm is not country bashing, but that is exactly what many Westerners are doing to China. And I just cannot help but wondering, if you dislike China so much, why not leave?

August 14, 2008 @ 2:33 pm | Comment

bert “Proof for this?I would say the most nationalistic Chinese are usually the most educated. Their nationalism is homegrown.”

—————
In the last 200 years, some people influence the course of Chinese history more than others. Among them, the most famous are Sun Yat-Sen, Chiang Kai-shek，Mao zedong, Deng Xiaoping, Zhou Enlai.Mao is the only one that has not been educated outside China. Since you may ask why I list these Communist leaders as nationalistic, it is important to recognize that it was the May 4th Movement that gave the birth to The Chinese Coummunist Party, the Movement itself, altough called for Science and Democracy, was a nationalism movement at its core.

August 14, 2008 @ 2:41 pm | Comment

So I wonder to myself, Why haven’t Westerners protested along side Chinese from the start?

Are these protests a Religious thing?

I know one of them of was pregnant and old. So is this a march for human rights?

If it is a march for human rights, When will foreigners and Chine born/citizens “villagers” pull a Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. and bring there kids into the march with a images of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr talking about and chantng “injustic for there own kind is worst then segragation of another kind” with there kids being used as shields.

“Chinese police are thugs”

There aren’t thugs. They are just like any other police trying to do there job. If all the protestors just all became police officers and took the place of them, then maybe we would see less brutalities.

It is hard to a be something who defend the law only to find that people don’t realize to look thre the loop holes of the law.

I guess we are all going to have to wait until the annual rolling of the Tanks in 2010. That would be pretty sweet to see protestors marching side by westerns chanting about all ther problems since 2000 with a Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. protest sign talking about equality. Then we finally get to the war against Skynet.

If not then USA and Russia will terminate each other after Russia follows in foot steps of USA’s anti-terrorist campaign. Then you could pretty much guess the rest.

August 14, 2008 @ 2:59 pm | Comment

A Chinese,

Not to wade into a mudfight, but the historian in me can’t help it:

First off, your translation: These foreigners harbor deep prejudices against China, always viewing China through their own biases (colored lenses). They invariably speak of our native home as being completely devoid of anything good/being without merit.

1. It’s relatively easy to translate tropes and cliches.
2. I like how the sentence accuses westerners of harboring deep prejudices while assuming most westerners think alike. Talk about your ironies.

Second, Raj doesn’t live in China. So, telling him to go home…not as helpful as you might think.

Finally, on to history:

1) Sun Yat-sen was not a Communist leader. You need to check that again. In fact, Sun would go out of his way–often jumping through the tiniest of intellectual hoops–to avoid anything that smacked of Marxism. His fascination with Leninist party organization on the other hand…

but he was no fan of the CCP. In fact, I just translated a series of articles/reviews in the Journal of Modern Chinese History published by CASS on the subject.

2) While the May 4th Movement (especially the actual May 4 demonstrations following China getting screwed in Paris) were certainly nationalistic, most accounts of the era discuss the growing importance of nationalism/national survival over time, an importance which gradually drowned out the myriad other concerns/ideas which were part of a vibrant culture of debate among young Chinese intellectuals during the 1910s.

Let’s not replace nuance and the wonderful sense of contingency, complexity, and possibility in history with a politically-derived teleology.

You may now resume the mindless mud-slinging back and forth.

August 14, 2008 @ 3:32 pm | Comment

Jeremiah:

1.Sun Yat-Sen was not a communist, but he is remebered by many Chinese for his “three people” principles, since you translated so many works, you should know one of these principles is nationalism.It is one of his legacy that is still relevant today

2.The fact that nationalism at that time “drowned out the myriad other concerns/ideas which were part of a vibrant culture of debate among young Chinese intellectuals during the 1910s” demonstrated the very strength of nationalism and its acceptance by Chinese at large.Although the merit of this is debateable, but it is a fact

3.I will be much appreciate if you could tell this respected blogger and plenty alike not to replace nuance and the wonderful sense of contingency, complexity, and possibility in history and REALITY with a politically-derived teleology. I have to admit I cannot help but to do the same, it’s just a reaction.This is especially true when I see many many Westerners(Sorry, cant help but to use that word, because Westerners are excellent at this), when discussing China, do use a politically-derived teleology approach. I do not know ithat is their way of thinking, so I tried to use their way to address them

4.Then I think it might be helpful if Raj could go to China for a while and make some real Chinese friends. At least try to put his feet into Chinese shoes. Becasue I have a puzzle here, if he is serious about criticize China for good, who is his audience then?Chinese or others? If his audience is Chinese, then he should at least learn more about Chinese culture and address the issue in a manner that Chinese could accept (so far, the best example I can get is Kevin Rudd, hope that could be helpful). If his audience is not Chinese, then , let me put it straight, the way he put these issues are insulting to Chinese and unhelpful to his cause. Many Chinese will simple dismiss him as wearing colored lenses

5.

August 14, 2008 @ 4:51 pm | Comment

One more point,about “1) Sun Yat-sen was not a Communist leader. You need to check that again.”

Could you please check my writing a bit more. What I said was “Since you may ask why I list these Communist leaders as NATIONALISTIC”,
Sun, Chiang were both Chinese Nationalist Party（Kuomintang) leaders.Nationalism has been part of that party’s “three people principles”. Communist leaders like Mao,Chou,Deng were nationalism because the CCP itself was, to a large extent, the product of a nationalistic movement (may 4th).

August 14, 2008 @ 5:05 pm | Comment

“We saw our nation be treated like rubbish, as if it is a hell to live, we saw our national flag being burned, we were told it’s better to turn against each other, to mock up, to behave like a joker, because that’s the only way that West could accept us, do you have any idea what am I talking about?”

You forget the role of the Qing, with their reactionary tendencies, leading the nation to the brink of collapse.

You neglect to mention that during the 20th century, Chinese people themselves did far more damage to China than foreigners did. It’s called civil war. You can blame the foreigners for being colonialist from the start, but you can’t blame them for turning Chinese against Chinese. THAT is ascribing way too much power to any Western nation.

A Chinese, your way of thinking is just as dangerous as is offensive the way of thinking that you are criticising. You accuse Westerners of seeing China through tinted lenses, but you see history with lenses that are just as tinted. The West deserves its share of criticism for its treatment of China. But if you had the claim of history that you say you do, you would know that the setbacks that China has suffered in the last two centuries have as much to do with the Chinese as the West. Certainly, the factors that enabled the West to take advantage of China resulted, in large part from corruption within China itself. As for the devastation of the 20th century, aside from fingering the Japanese, you should be able to attribute some blame to the very man who you quote: Mao.

“Mao Zedong asked before, ‘how come this great teacher bullies his student all the time?’,no matter what his student did.” This is the same Mao who is responsible for the Great Leap Forward and the Cultural Revolution, which together harmed far more Chinese than the West ever did.

I am not saying the West was right in any way. I am saying that it appears you are lacking a nuanced view of history.

August 14, 2008 @ 5:05 pm | Comment

@ A Chinese

Since you are not a Chinese, do you have any idea how many verbal assault we have experienced?!!

Do you think that Britons are never “verbally assaulted”? What about the US – probably criticsed more than China, whether you think that’s fair or not.

we saw our national flag being burned

Again, do you think that only happens to China? How should people like Richard feel when they repeatedly see the Stars & Stripes burnt? I bet you it happens more to America than it does China.

It will give you an idea how the so called “criticsm” is received within the mainstream oversea Chinese community.

I’m not going to be distracted by what “overseas Chinese” think. They are not spokesmen for China – the views of people living in the PRC are far more important.

Then I think it might be helpful if Raj could go to China for a while and make some real Chinese friends.

I was wondering when you would make a comment like that. Unfortunately for you, I have been to China, and I have Chinese friends (and not rich middle class snobs, either).

At least try to put his feet into Chinese shoes.

How often do Chinese try to put themselves into other people’s shoes, I wonder?

who is his audience then?

I’m not trying to communicate to anyone in particular – I couldn’t care less whether 1 or 100 people read my posts.

he should at least learn more about Chinese culture

I’m not sure how much a fair number of Chinese people living in China know about their own culture – and I mean that. You’re making a generic “you don’t understand China” statement, which is pretty weak.

August 14, 2008 @ 5:24 pm | Comment

More on topic, I would say that these protesters aren’t trying to affect the views of the Chinese. They are trying to remind foreigners of their causes… constantly.

On a deeper level, I would say that they are trying, just as the Chinese government is trying, to control the narrative of the Games. The protesters are the “but”. I mean that after the Olympics have concluded, and even during the events, the world media will come up with its narrative of what went on in Beijing. The Chinese government would like that narrative to be “China has stood up”. In fact, I have seen this same message in local press. However, outside of China, the message will be “the games were the most expensive in history and served as China’s coming-out party. Indeed, they were quite impressive, “but” they were very controversial. In fact, constant protests…”

Read the non-Chinese media coverage of the games now, or look at a cross-section of articles. This narrative is already there, and protests such as these go a long way towards keeping it there.

This is why I would disagree with whomever implied above that China does not care about any “embarrassment” that these protests may cause. The protests themselves — in Nepal, in foreign capitals, in Beijing by small groups — alter the narrative of the games, transforming it into something that the government doesn’t want said or remembered.

Raj said: “How often do Chinese try to put themselves into other people’s shoes, I wonder?”

I say: Touche!

August 14, 2008 @ 7:14 pm | Comment

@Chinese and @Jeremiah, please leave my guy Sun Yatsun alone in your discussion. He is American and traveled with his American passport. Check your fact on wikipedia or elsewhere. I know I know. Sun originally came from China and all.

As a Chinese American, I have a totally different political persuasion than Chinese, but I think he might be right with his assumption that a lot of overseas Chinese are nationalistic because of what they have experienced as immigrants. But we need to look beyond our initial experience. Chinese, if you have kids, how would you tell your kids about their country? Do you still tell your kids that they should be loyal to China? I actually know some Chinese do that, but that’s so sad. That put their kids in a hard moral quagmire.

Likewise, most Taiwanese in Taiwan don’t want independence. But once they live overseas and realize their country isn’t even being recognized on the international stage, they become nationalistic and demand independence.

I don’t know what to say about Chinese nationalism. As for me, I want to look beyond it and be a good U.S. citizen so that my kids and their kids will have a healthy root and foundation. So for you, Chinese, just think about it. You don’t want your kids to grow up bitter and rootless like you.

August 14, 2008 @ 11:07 pm | Comment

@ A Chinese

1.Sun Yat-Sen was not a communist, but he is remebered by many Chinese for his “three people” principles, since you translated so many works, you should know one of these principles is nationalism.It is one of his legacy that is still relevant today

Of course the Father of modern China was not a communist. How many mainland Chinese actually remembered him as the Father of modern China? They remembered Mao more vividly more than anybody and still nominally worship him as the “creator” of “New China”.

How about Dr. Sun’s legacy of Min Quan or democracy, one of the Three People’s Principles? Is it relevant under the one party dictatorship run by the CCP on the mainland?

Given Dr. Sun’s hatred towards Yuan Shi-kai’s autocracy and pursue for a free China all his life, he would be hopping mad if he saw today’s China under a party dictatorship.

Since you may ask why I list these Communist leaders as nationalistic, it is important to recognize that it was the May 4th Movement that gave the birth to The Chinese Coummunist Party, the Movement itself, altough called for Science and Democracy, was a nationalism movement at its core.

What a joke.

Which party killed most number of Chinese people throughout history?
Ans: Not the Japanese Imperial Army but our very own Chinese Communist Party (30 million victims). And Mao was the director of this massive slaughter of his own countrymen.

Which party was bent on destroying Chinese culture?
Ans: The CCP. Just look at its mad campaigns against anything “old” and “feudal” esp during the height of the Cultural Revolution.

For you a Chinese to call the CCP a nationalist movement at the core, you are none other than a han jian.

August 15, 2008 @ 1:49 am | Comment

I read one biography of Sun Yat-sen, if i recall it was written by a french woman and translated into english. would like to learn more about him. looking forward to a day when more material and research is published in book form for us lay people like myself to read.

I wonder what would have happened if the british journalist was obeserving people in tiananmen with posters of Sun instead of a Tibetan flag.

I think if I was president of Taiwan I would try to play up Sun Yatsen as a common thread between the PRC and modern Taiwan.

August 15, 2008 @ 4:43 am | Comment

Lindel, yes it’s by Marie-Claire Bergère and is perhaps one of the better works done in Europe or North America on the subject. I’ve actually assigned a chapter or two from the Janet Lloyd translation for class on occasion.

To paraphrase, I believe, Gore Vidal: Sun’s best career move was dying (relatively) young in 1924 before the CCP/KMT relationship completely descended into violence and bitter acrimony, thus allowing both the PRC and the ROC to claim Sun in their own ways.

@ Marc, Though I agree, the US connection is there, I wouldn’t go so far as to label Sun simplistically as “an American.” Sun himself would have had some ambivalence with such a self-identification. (We’ve had this debate on the board before.) He spent about three or four years in Hawaii (before that territory was annexed by the US) living with his half-brother and attending missionary school. That said, as Bergère argues, Sun learned to use his position as a liminal figure, straddling both China and the West, to his advantage as a revolutionary leader and, especially, as a fund raiser.

August 15, 2008 @ 5:35 am | Comment

“I don’t know if there’s scientific proof, but if this blog’s comments are any indication, there’s a strong case for A Chinese’s assertion.”

The questions is why. I will suggest the root cause is western media. If you look at the recent post on “uneven teeth”, you will get a sense of it. Western media always try to interpretate things from China by assuming the worst intention, without verifying the fact! I suggest everyone has ever heard “uneven teeth” story to read ESWN’s post and the post at “fool’s mountain”.

So far, there is no western media coming out to correct this story.

August 15, 2008 @ 9:27 am | Comment

Maybe, Steve. But looking at certain blogs and commenters, their main message is strikingly similar – the western media always make China look bad. The western media are always wrong and unfair. They don’t “understand China.” The fact that the government is blocking this story in China and not allowing coverage by Chinese media says a lot. Maybe it’s all the Western media’s fault, but the CCP sure is worried that their decision about the uneven teeth will be condemned by their own people, who can’t be accused of “not understanding China.”

I like the attack on the worldwide media for not correcting their stories because of two blog posts. How could it be, that not all the world’s reporters read these two blogs?? Further proof that the media are so, so biased against China.

August 15, 2008 @ 10:23 am | Comment

Likewise, most Taiwanese in Taiwan don’t want independence. But once they live overseas and realize their country isn’t even being recognized on the international stage, they become nationalistic and demand independence.

Recent polls consistently not only the growth of a Taiwan identity but majority support for independence. Realistically the vast majority support the “status quo” which is defacto independence, and only a small minority, 10% or so, want to see Taiwan annexed to China. Overseas Taiwanese tend to be nationalists because unlike locals here, they were not exposed to educational system that filled them with nonsense about their own history and ROC history, and they could talk freely with each other about it, and because the overseas Taiwanese movement consisted, from the beginning, of people exiled for pro-democracy political activity.

None of that applies to the overseas Chinese population. It consists largely of people who came overseas to make money or get an education. It’s bizarre and frightening that China is probably the only authoritarian state that has no democracy movement in its diaspora. That is why ultimately the Jim Mann thesis that the middle class will support, rather than oppose, the authoritarian state so it can keep its class privileges, is most likely correct. The middle and upper-middle class kids who go abroad merely get their prejudices reinforced, and return ready to support the state that rewards them with comfortable lives and other privileges. Seen in that light, the complaints of western racism are simply rationalizations for their own failure to live up to the ideals they encountered overseas. Since it’s all a sham, why shouldn’t I get mine?….

Michael

August 15, 2008 @ 10:26 am | Comment

Marc:

If I have kids, I will leave the choice to them and respect their choice.

As for myself, sorry, I do not feel bitter and rootless. But I cannot really remain silent when facing obvious prejudice. I can well live with it,comfortably, because I am used to it. But seeing others suffer from it leaves me unease. I do feel compelled to do something about it. It’s not about where your loyality lies, it’s about who we are, what we do.

Making life simple is a perfect choice, it’s your choice, but not mine

August 15, 2008 @ 12:10 pm | Comment

sp:

What you said remind me of something I did when I was in high school.

Back then, one of my room mate was a deeply devoted Christian, yet just like many Chinese, he was also a great admirer of Mao zedong.

I was astonished when I learned that, I so told him exactly what you wrote above, do you know what was his response?

August 15, 2008 @ 12:19 pm | Comment

@ A Chinese

Stop evading the question. At the end of the day, it it doesn’t change the fact that you called a party-state machine which slaughtered millions of Chinese people and destroying the culture of Hua Xia Zi Di a “core nationalist movement”.

Han Jian!

August 15, 2008 @ 12:35 pm | Comment

@A Chinese

And you claimed that Dr. Sun’s Three People’s Principles, the San Min Chu-I is relevant. But where is Min Quan? Where is it on the mainland? Please stop hiding in your commie rat hole.

August 15, 2008 @ 12:39 pm | Comment

Overseas Taiwanese tend to be nationalists because unlike locals here, they were not exposed to educational system that filled them with nonsense about their own history and ROC history

ROC history is nonsense? LOL. I thought calling “Japanese Occupation in Taiwan” as “Japanese Administration in Taiwan” was even more nonsensical, sick and full of bullshit. Many of these “overseas Taiwanese” are die-hard Japanese fans which formed a minority. If you go to the Chinatowns in America, most of the overseas compatriots flies the National Flag of the Republic of China and celebrate Oct 10 as the National Day.

August 15, 2008 @ 12:45 pm | Comment

@Michael

Overseas Taiwanese tend to be nationalists because unlike locals here, they were not exposed to educational system that filled them with nonsense about their own history and ROC history, and they could talk freely with each other about it, and because the overseas Taiwanese movement consisted, from the beginning, of people exiled for pro-democracy political activity.

So you mean local Taiwanese today are simply sheeps who cannot think for themselves? You mean in Taiwan today, people cannot talk about history freely? Strange because i thought 228 Memorial Day is now a public holiday?

We live in a democratic ROC on Taiwan now. But i guess for Michael, he is nostalgic about the martial law period on Taiwan such that he is still living in pre-1987 Taiwan.

August 15, 2008 @ 12:52 pm | Comment

Raj:

Do you think that Britons are never “verbally assaulted”? What about the US – probably criticsed more than China, whether you think that’s fair or not.

Again, do you think that only happens to China? How should people like Richard feel when they repeatedly see the Stars & Stripes burnt? I bet you it happens more to America than it does China.
—————————–
Well, the thing is , to American, it’s perfectly ok to burn Stars&Stripes. It is an act of speech protected by first amendment that was established in Texas v. Johnson.

But to Chinese, it is both illegal and offending. Your logic that Chinese should accept what American accept is really absurd.We respect American’s right to burn their flag, do American respect our right to classify flag burning as criminal offence?

————————————-
I’m not going to be distracted by what “overseas Chinese” think. They are not spokesmen for China – the views of people living in the PRC are far more important.
———————
Well, If I cited these who live inside PRC, you would probably say these people are brainwashed, ill informed, etc

———————————–
I was wondering when you would make a comment like that. Unfortunately for you, I have been to China, and I have Chinese friends (and not rich middle class snobs, either).
—————————–
To be honest, if what you are looking for is a country’s ill, you can always find it. It’s like going to a prison and ask for these who are in jail:what do you think of police? Your approach to China is just like that:
Step 1,Assuming the cop is evil
Step 2,Go to a prison, ask the prisoners’ opinion
Step 3,Establish the arguement

I am not comparing the losers and unfortunates in China as criminals here, they are not. But if you always make your points by focusing on a small proportion population, it is really biased.

Further more, I can, in fact, understand your approch. That’s exactly why I question it. Everytime when a Westerner tell me the bad side of China, I merely feed them what they want to hear even though I know this will only reinforce their prejudice.I know many Chinese who do the same, simple because they value the relationship more than anything else, they do not want to have an arguement with friends, making one of them embarrassed. If you have a Chinese friend, and he or she know what you like, they will typically say they agree with whatever you say. It’s only a matter of manner. If they do argue with you, it’s usually becasue they cannot really take it anymore.

For me, I am simple tired of making useless effort.

Pew Research recently released a poll which indicate 80% of Chinese think the country is on the right track. I wonder if any of your Chinese friend belong to that 80%? (China do not yet have 80% rich middle class)

—————————-
How often do Chinese try to put themselves into other people’s shoes, I wonder?

I’m not trying to communicate to anyone in particular – I couldn’t care less whether 1 or 100 people read my posts.

I’m not sure how much a fair number of Chinese people living in China know about their own culture – and I mean that. You’re making a generic “you don’t understand China” statement, which is pretty weak.
————————
In this cross culture communication, I am using English to argue with you. Have you ever tried to use Chinese to argue with a native Chinese speaker? Using Chinese to communicate with Chinese in depth? You may consider “not understand China” a weak arguement, but in fact, for all the points you are making, it only makes you appear ignorant and self-righteous in the eyes of Chinese

Of course, you can just ignore what others think of you, you can well believe what you are doing is right, and try to accomplish that no matter the cost. It is, indeed, self-righteous.

But what makes you think you are always on the right side, doing justice thing?I wonder. Are you doing it for its own right, or just doing it to fulfill your own moral need?Merely to get a sense of self assurance and moral superiority?

Chinese inside China always have complain, ranging from inflation to corruption. Is any one of these concern your priority?Of course, reduce inflation and corrupation will make CCP stronger,it is something you cannot accept.

BTW, if you read Chinese, you should read this post and its replies on Tianya, I do not really agree with it, but it will give you a better sense of Chinese feelings

http://cache.tianya.cn/publicforum/content/free/1/1403644.shtml

August 15, 2008 @ 1:51 pm | Comment

sp:

Ok, let me tell you my opinion here. I am neither a fan of CCP nor Mao. Yet I do think you need to understand the issue in a broader sense, putting it in the context of Chinese history.

If you base your criteria on an idealized vision, then I can fairly tell you that every Chinese ruler,both past and present, can be said to be han jian.

What was the signifance of CCP then? On the surface, we can see Great Leap Forward and Cultural Revoluation. But if you look further, you will find that, for everything CCP did, it is only fulfilling a Chinese prophecy，something that is deeply rooted in Chinese soul.What is it, then?

If you read the top communist leaders’ use of language, you will always find words like “Tian天”, “Bian Tian变天” or “Gong chan dang de tian xia共产党的天下”. These are hash words，and they are very serious. Coummuism is a foreign ideology to Chinese, but so are Capitalism, Democracy and Human Rights. Yet when CCP did gain power in China, it is no longer a ordinary party with a foreign ideology. It in effect gain the mandate of heaven and fulfill the Chinese prophecy about heaven, that is ”天下分久必合，合久必分“,when land under heaven divides too long, it will unite, when land under heaven unite too long, it will divide.

CCP is no exception to Chinese culture, it is part of that culture. For good or ill, Chinese culture is not just about filial piety and benevolence or even Confucianism. In face, there are two faces of Chinese culture. One is Kung fu panda, the other is Dragon Emperor. The first face is represented by Confucianism, the latter is represented by Legalism. CCP in its early years was a perfect example of Legalism entity rather than a Communism one in this regard. Talking about CCP in English using these Chinese concepts is a bit difficult, but it does make sense. Many people tend to see the 1978 reform as a sign of CCP’s partial acceptance of certain Western values, like capitalism. But in a Chinese context, I would like to recommond it is a sign of CCP’s transformation from a Legalism party to a Confucianism party. The pattern is in fact very typical, it matches the pattern of traditional Chinese dynasties.

At its early stage, the political entity subscribes to Legalism, concentrate the power into the hands of one man, impose strict social control so that it could relocate all available resouces to its need. The goal is to 得天下，get heaven’s approval, or more precisely, get the national power of China through all possible means. Once that goal is achieved, the gravity centre of that political entity will become the “son of heaven”, the ruler of China–land under heaven.

The early stage of this development saw the hight of Legalism, an adverse effect of this trend is the relative demise of Confucianism. It was no coincidence that in Mao’s years, the primary enemy of CCP were landlords, a social class that hold Confucianism dear.

Yet the son of heaven will eventually return to Confucianism, this was true for both China’s ancient rulers and CCP. The Hu&Wen administeration is in fact, taking that step now. Using a Chinese phrase for this, there is a cycle of Yin and Yang, When Yang reaches its peak, it will fall. The decline of Legalism and the rise of Confucianism goes like that.

So, answering your question, did CCP destory Chinese culture,my answer is NO. CCP, in fact , is merely part of Chinese culture. I can even go further and claim it resembles the core of Chinese value system. Of course, some of that is ugly, right? But I do not really think we should attribute the aspects of Chinese culture we do not like as Communism or something foreign. It is part of our civilization.

Return to the question of Three Principles of the People and Min zhu, min sheng. You need to understand that CCP has never deny these two principles. It just interpreted them differently, in a Marxism sense. In fact, if you may well find a surprisingly large number of reference to “Democracy”, “Freedom” ,”Social Welfare” in literature in China, both in Maos year and present.

One more point, here is the online memorial of Sun Yat Sen that is held by CCP, you can take a look and get an idea of CCP view him
http://szs.chinaspirit.net.cn/

On the top right, there is a word, 民族魂, the soul of a nation. It is how he is remembered

August 15, 2008 @ 3:22 pm | Comment

@a chinese

“Pew Research recently released a poll which indicate 80% of Chinese think the country is on the right track”

which 80% do you think they asked? do you think they went around the sichuanese countryside soliciting views? or qinghai countryside? cos i doubt it.

“In this cross culture communication, I am using English to argue with you. Have you ever tried to use Chinese to argue with a native Chinese speaker?”

This is an English language forum. for all you know, we could all be on tianya all the time arguing in chinese and you would not know. you should assume good faith on our part.

“Well, the thing is , to American, it’s perfectly ok to burn Stars&Stripes.”

you don’t understand the difference between acknowledging someone’s right to do something but at the same time being offended by it. but don’t worry, it is a distinction a lot of people fail to grasp.

“Back then, one of my room mate was a deeply devoted Christian, yet just like many Chinese, he was also a great admirer of Mao zedong.

I was astonished when I learned that, I so told him exactly what you wrote above, do you know what was his response?”

No, please tell us. i am interested how someone could be a christian and respect mao zedong. i would strongly suspect he doesn’t understand christianity.

August 15, 2008 @ 3:30 pm | Comment

“By a Chinese” is posting from

A) the evil US of A
B) Canada
C) any other English speaking democracy

Bets are open.

August 15, 2008 @ 4:13 pm | Comment

@A Chinese

If you base your criteria on an idealized vision, then I can fairly tell you that every Chinese ruler,both past and present, can be said to be han jian.

The truth of the matter is, throughout Chinese history, people kill each other for the throne and for political power. But Mao and CCP’s feat was historically unprecedented. For mad ideological and political reasons, 30 million Chinese people were killed, all in the name of keeping Marxism-Leninism pure in China. All these set back China for at least 2 decades. It was self-inflicted. Not even Cixi was dumb enough to do that.

If you read the top communist leaders’ use of language, you will always find words like “Tian天”, “Bian Tian变天” or “Gong chan dang de tian xia共产党的天下”. These are hash words，and they are very serious. Coummuism is a foreign ideology to Chinese, but so are Capitalism, Democracy and Human Rights. Yet when CCP did gain power in China, it is no longer a ordinary party with a foreign ideology. It in effect gain the mandate of heaven and fulfill the Chinese prophecy about heaven, that is ”天下分久必合，合久必分“,when land under heaven divides too long, it will unite, when land under heaven unite too long, it will divide.

Save all these for your ideas of writing romance stories, dude. All the crap about “tian”. I tell you, a true Chinese should only believe in “tian xia wei gong”, 天下為公.

And all your rubbish about Legalism and Confucianism. You don’t understand China. Mao made use of the attractive attributes of Marxism-Leninism to get support from the peasants and this buy him support because China is a highly stratified society. He succeeded but he became more ambitious and launched the GLF to showcase how he use his own version of communism to lead China to communist utopia and surpass the Soviet Union. When it all failed, he staged a comeback in the form of the Cultural Revolution and tried once again to rally the youth around him using Marxism-Leninism and invented “thought” enemies such as Confucius, capitalism, Soviet revisionism, feudalism in order to stir up the people and rally their support behind him.

However, by the 1970s, Deng and his colleagues realized that Marxism-Leninism was a dead end. The collapse of the Soviet Union confirmed that. But how do you rally the people around now that Marxism-Leninism has been showed to be a failure? So now the leaders of the CCP saw an opportunity to revive Confucianism. Why? Not that they like Confucius, but they want to made use of the authoritarian aspects of Confucianism to enhance the party’s legitimacy, given the onslaught of Western liberal thoughts. How far can Confucianism fulfill this ideological gap left behind by communism? That remains to be seen.

So, answering your question, did CCP destory Chinese culture,my answer is NO. CCP, in fact , is merely part of Chinese culture. I can even go further and claim it resembles the core of Chinese value system. Of course, some of that is ugly, right? But I do not really think we should attribute the aspects of Chinese culture we do not like as Communism or something foreign. It is part of our civilization.

If destroying and burning Chinese historical artifacts and “guo-bao” during the Cultural Revolution, launching campaigns such as “Three-Antis”, “Five-Antis” and “Criticize Confucius” are not destroying Chinese culture, what is? Thank god Chiang Kai-shek removed most of the Chinese guo-bao to Taiwan, if not they will all be destroyed by the CCP by now.

Return to the question of Three Principles of the People and Min zhu, min sheng. You need to understand that CCP has never deny these two principles. It just interpreted them differently, in a Marxism sense. In fact, if you may well find a surprisingly large number of reference to “Democracy”, “Freedom” ,”Social Welfare” in literature in China, both in Maos year and present.

One more point, here is the online memorial of Sun Yat Sen that is held by CCP, you can take a look and get an idea of CCP view him
http://szs.chinaspirit.net.cn/

On the top right, there is a word, 民族魂, the soul of a nation. It is how he is remembered

Dr. Sun Yat-sen is the father of China, Guo Fu, 國父. This is how he should be remembered. Not some absurd 民族魂that the commies invented for him.

August 15, 2008 @ 4:35 pm | Comment

“…it only makes you appear ignorant and self-righteous in the eyes of Chinese.”

A Chinese, the key word you used is “appear”. Chinese see commentators (Western or otherwise) in forums like this one as “ignorant” and “just trying to keep China down” because they allow themselves to without thinking critically about the group of people they are talking to. Yeah, there are many people out there who know nothing about China. And there are a few in here who probably know next to nothing about China too, but most people here actually have taken the time to learn a thing or two.

I have met many people from many places. One thing that strikes me about Chinese in general is their tendency to tell you when discussing their own country that your disagreement stems from misunderstandings and that you can’t possibly know what they do. Well, they are half right. I will never be as versed in Chinese culture as many locals. But I do know a thing or two and AM qualified to make some judgements. But ruling out foreign criticism by assuming that the person you are talking to can’t possibly understand a problem because they are not Chinese is the ultimate in ignorance and self-righteousness.

I am not speaking for myself, but some people you are talking to here are experts in these subjects. Yet you would write them all off as know-nothings.

August 15, 2008 @ 5:04 pm | Comment

@ A Chinese
“As for myself, sorry, I do not feel bitter and rootless. But I cannot really remain silent when facing obvious prejudice. I can well live with it,comfortably, because I am used to it. But seeing others suffer from it leaves me unease. I do feel compelled to do something about it. It’s not about where your loyality lies, it’s about who we are, what we do.”

Someone needs to climb down from that imaginary “high-horse”…

You feel compelled to do something and decide the best action is to come to a blog read by a proportionally tiny subsection of internet users interested in China, and debate them using cliched strategies that its veteran posters have seen nauseated at them all year? Great choice, you are REALLY accomplishing something there…

I’m sure all your brothers and sisters will weep over the sweat you poured out defending them with your keyboard. Is their such thing as a Lei Feng complex? (THE INTERNET TRULY IS AN IDIOT MAGNET).

@Richard
“I like the attack on the worldwide media for not correcting their stories because of two blog posts. How could it be, that not all the world’s reporters read these two blogs?? Further proof that the media are so, so biased against China.”

This just cracks me up as well. Not only two BLOG posts, but two blogs who have OBVIOUS political agendas, I can just imagine the scene in the NY times newsroom…

Editor: DAMMIT! Our plans to ruin China’s image were foiled again!
Reporter: What’s wrong boss? I thought our trumped-up accusations were foolproof.
Editor: “Fool-proof” maybe, but “Fool’s-mountain proof” no way!. There brilliance has outmatched our arrogance again. Prepare 1.3 billion standard apology letters to be sent out tomorrow!
Reporter: Curses! Fool’s Mountain is there no end to your myth-busting mayhem!

August 15, 2008 @ 5:07 pm | Comment

I can sympathize with many of my fellow Chinese netizens. I know what it’s like to be humiliated in public for reasons beyond one’s control. The Chinese have been humiliated by the Western imperialist powers. I was humiliated as a child at school (and even today by my colleagues at work) because of my name. When can we learn to accept each other for who we are?!

August 15, 2008 @ 5:58 pm | Comment

@ A Chinese

Well, the thing is , to American, it’s perfectly ok to burn Stars&Stripes. It is an act of speech protected by first amendment that was established in Texas v. Johnson.

But to Chinese, it is both illegal and offending. Your logic that Chinese should accept what American accept is really absurd.We respect American’s right to burn their flag, do American respect our right to classify flag burning as criminal offence?

This shows how little you really understand. Americans do not think it ok. A lot will be angry, sad, etc when it happens. But they legally it has to be tolerated. Just because a law says something that can happen does not mean people do not care that it happens.

Well, If I cited these who live inside PRC, you would probably say these people are brainwashed, ill informed, etc

Again, usual stereotyping by you of what non-Chinese think. But even if their views are manipulated, they still think it and thus need to be acknowledged.

If you have a Chinese friend, and he or she know what you like, they will typically say they agree with whatever you say. It’s only a matter of manner.

Nope – they always put their own views forward.

Pew Research recently released a poll which indicate 80% of Chinese think the country is on the right track. I wonder if any of your Chinese friend belong to that 80%?

I had much more engaging conversations than simple questions like that. Generally they were positive, but also had some reservations.

it only makes you appear ignorant and self-righteous in the eyes of Chinese

The Chairman of Chinese Opinion has manifested…….

Of course, you can just ignore what others think of you, you can well believe what you are doing is right, and try to accomplish that no matter the cost. It is, indeed, self-righteous.

Or you could stop pretending to represent 1 billion people. If you want to, join the Communist Party and try to become president. Or would you prefer to hide in your democratic host nation where your rights are protected?

But what makes you think you are always on the right side, doing justice thing?

Geez, you don’t get it – do you? It isn’t about “being right” or “doing justice” (and how the hell does someone “do justice” by writing on a blog?). It’s about expressing a view and communicating with others. Doesn’t matter if they’re Chinese or just interested in China, though a mixture of both is good. But that’s blogging for you – people come to you, not the other way around.

Is any one of these concern your priority?

If you had read my blogging history you’d know the answer to that.

Of course, reduce inflation and corrupation will make CCP stronger,it is something you cannot accept.

That is assuming that reducing corruption can and will be sustained over a long period with the current political structure.

August 15, 2008 @ 6:52 pm | Comment

“But what makes you think you are always on the right side, doing justice thing?”

Yeah, this comment bugs me too. First of all, since when was this thread about taking sides? A Chinese, look back at the majority of the comments here between you and someone else. Yeah, there are some of a more academic nature that are interpretations of such and such principle of Sun Yat Sen or some other person and its role in Chinese society. But aside from in those posts, which are of a nature quite common in academic discourse, everyone except you is pretty much just trying to defend their right to comment. You are the one who has made this whole thing about the injuries the Chinese people have suffered and the indignity and audacity of the West. Furthermore, you seem to be the only one who uses the ultimate self-righteous comment: “You are not of X nationality, so you can just not understand.” And you seem to have taken sides more clearly than anyone else.

This blog is about discussion. And people who discuss have opinions and stake out positions, and often stick to them strongly. But approaching this from an “Us vs. Them” mentality is just not healthy. As for certain negative opinions of the Chinese government and of past Chinese regimes, unless you can honestly say that they are/were stellar examples of how governments should be, you should get used to seeing some criticism. It happens to every government from time to time, and some more often than others. Chill dude!

August 15, 2008 @ 7:16 pm | Comment

“you should get used to seeing some criticism.”

Let me rephrase this. You should learn to tolerate better some criticism.

August 15, 2008 @ 7:18 pm | Comment

sp:

Gosh!Have you been brainwashed by CCP, Do you realize right now you speak just like them!? No joking, I am serious! Your definition of true Chinese really strike me! Anyway, you are becoming more like them now.

mor:

I am in New Zealand. But if you are curious about what would happen if Chinese in PRC will react to blog like this, take a look at
http://newsforums.bbc.co.uk/ws/thread.jspa?forumID=6806&start=0&zh=simp

BBC Chinese was unblocked recently, it asks what people in China think, take a look at it yourself

Andy R:

I always read this blog with joy, sometimes laugh. I do not need to accomplish any thing here,I never expect to. But I have to admit, communicating with you guys is really a learning experience, that’s the part I love the most. It gives me some ideas about human nature, for better or worse.

I know more and more Chinese are doing what I am doing, not just on internet,but in real life. One of my Chinese friend told me her experience recently :”it’s really useless to communicate with these foreigners, they are full of prejudice，they look down up my hometown. It’s really impossible to communicate”.

You can just laugh at us, consider us making foolish attempts. Sometimes we were so dispointed that we lose control, other times we try to forget, and burn the feelings beneath. Yet I have to say, this is like a volcano.

We cannot really pretend to be ok in a world that ignorance is abundant. It’s not hurting you, but it hurts us. You can well live with that ignorance and refuse to listen, pretending to be righteous and justic, but do you really think that is the way you want to live?Have you ever consider the possiblity that you are living in a self-induced illusion?Where what you believe to be right is not that right, wrong has never been so wrong.

Forget these writings if you want, but please do not be surprised if Chinese took to the streets next time, staging anti-West protest, if that did happen, it is entirely of your own making.

Si:
He said, Mao was a great man despite all his faults. And he is serious about it.

I do understand the difference between right and feel offending, that’s the reason I use two different words there, you can check again what I wrote. The point is, in China, it is not a right, nor was it acceptable. And Chinese feel, I sense, seriously offended by that action than Americans

Pew did their research in cities, no rural data is available. But I have a feeling that if you go to country side, you may even find more support to the current centre government. Of course, you can prove me wrong by pointing to the number of rural unrests, etc. But rural China has long been the power base of CCP.

August 15, 2008 @ 8:12 pm | Comment

@A Chinese

Sorry for the “idiot” comment. As much as I completely disagree with your viewpoint, I shouldn’t say that your opinion is worthless. My annoyance is with your comments that imply that you are on here debating for some “higher cause” pretending to represent the opinions of 1.3 billion people from a country an ocean away. Perhaps you aren’t saying anything but your own opinion, but many overseas Chinese commentators in similar situations as your own seem to want to speak “for the Chinese people”. My point is the only person you have the right to speak for is yourself, and that rather than focusing on debating on a blog with a readership that includes many who respect and criticize China with good intentions, you might want to find a more useful outlet for your talents. Many of us criticize and complain because we want to see things improve, not because we are racists or xenophobes. China has problems, no amount of “spin” can erase them, so why not confront them openly and debate solutions rather than constantly trying to defend a false image that in my opinion only benefits the biggest obstacle to China’s progress: the CCP?

August 15, 2008 @ 8:31 pm | Comment

@A Chinese

Gosh!Have you been brainwashed by CCP, Do you realize right now you speak just like them!? No joking, I am serious! Your definition of true Chinese really strike me! Anyway, you are becoming more like them now.

LOL. Come on, that is because i have called your bluff and exposed all your fallacies. What’s wrong with “tian xia wei gong”? Hahaha. Only those bankrolled by the communists are very afraid and frightened by the notion of “All Under Heaven Belongs to All”.

What are you so mysteriously silent about Min Quan, one of the pillars of Dr. Sun’s thoughts?

Once trolls are desperate, they will start ad hominem attacks because they have no case.

We are all waiting for your replies: WHERE IS MIN QUAN in mainland China? WHERE???!!

He said, Mao was a great man despite all his faults. And he is serious about it.

I will help you expand your list: Hitler, Pol Pot, Stalin, Wang Jingwei, Yuan Shi-kai, Tojo Hideki, Idi Amin, Jiang Qing, Nicholae Ceausescu were all great men and women despite their faults and your friend is likely to be serious about it too.

August 15, 2008 @ 8:43 pm | Comment

BBC Chinese was unblocked recently, it asks what people in China think, take a look at it yourself

Give them access to it for five years and then see what they think at the end of it.

August 15, 2008 @ 8:45 pm | Comment

Or, hell! If you like the CCP, keep them in power and as a responsible citizen put pressure on them to improve! The CCP has plenty of sycophants, it doesn’t need anymore, and fighting with the Western media (let alone netizens on TPD!!!!) is completely futile in making China a stronger nation. The PEW research poll only proved one thing about China: that it has officially usurped the US as the most disillusioned country on the planet (no small feat!). Bad days are ahead for us all, and as Bush II proved, a refusal to admit policy flaws combined with a closed door to change only leads to disaster. As satisfied as you all are, you are heading down the same path fastly approaching the difficult consequences of self-imposed ignorance. It will be interesting to see how the “all holy” CCP holds up in the storm ahead.

August 15, 2008 @ 8:52 pm | Comment

Thomas:

I appreciate good criticism, but unfortunately many posts here are not. And do think it is necessary to use the same manner to address them. Like what Raj said in 12th post, they just want to “embarrass China”.And I find many posts here share that feelings to a large extent. It’s difficult not to take side if someone’s goal is to embrass you.

I do make the distinction between constructive criticism and attempt to embarrass. It’s great that you find my post to be self-righteous, becasue that’s exactly a point I want to make, I found many of your posts the same way–try to stand as a moral judage, make figure pointing, Chinese wrong, West right, Chinese bad, West good.

What I did was merely making it another way around, starting question you guys. And I found many begin to do what I am doing, act defensive, tell me not to make generalization, accept criticism. It’s really interesting. It’s obvious that what I am doing is exactly making criticism, you can argue if I am making it in the right manner, some of them are indeed rude, I admit, but I found none of you feel it acceptable. It is either a “generalization” or a “lack of understanding”.

Btw, I really want to hear your opinion about post 48

Maybe we can have a rest now and start some real constructive thing.

August 15, 2008 @ 9:04 pm | Comment

Andy R :

Thank you for your understanding, I think we made a good start here.

I have some thoughts on these issues too, like China’s problem and a more efficient way of East West communication. Here are some breif points
1.
I do not agree with you that “the biggest obstacle to China’s progress is the CCP”. It is not I like it, I do not;Nor do I hate it.

In fact, one Chinese dissent Dai qing has a assessment I feel much appreciate:The only reason I support CCP is because what replace it will be even worse.

You can well argue with all the bad evil aspects of CCP and say:it’s better to get rid of it.

But for me and many other Chinese alike, there is always one more question: What’s NEXT?

I am tired of revolutions now as before, and I am sure, with great certainity, many Chinese agree with me on this. For you and many who posts here, myself included, if something happened to China, we can just leave. The only thing we do here is to give words, yet is will be Chinese living in China that bear the cost, that cost is lives and blood.(I am not talking about some small fight here, a scale of that magnitude is no joke)

That’s why I feel, very strongly, these who call on the overthrow of CCP are either lack of understanding of China, or simple being irresponsible.

The other point, or more precisely, my hypothesis， was what I wrote on 48th floor. That is, the centre government of China indeed has a religious role to play, this is very similar to that of Pope and Dalai lama. If you look at PRC’s history, there was a good PM phenomenon. There was also someone in the Politburo that is unusually popular with the population, like Zhou Enlai, Hu Yaobang, Zhao ziyang, Zhu rongji, Wen Jiabao. My hypothesis, these are guys that fulfills their traditional role.

It seems you feel very angry because I am defending CCP. But the thing is, when I criticize it, I do it backhome, or on China based internet forums. There have never been short of such criticism in Chinese. But I also found almost all English speaking, Western based blogs and medias are critizing CCP. I think it’s better to provide an alternative voice in here.

After all, if what we hear are all CCP bashing, Can we still claim we are different from CCP then?Like you said, one voice is not healthly, I am merely on the other side on this controversy

2.
With regard to the “Higher Cause” thing, like I said, I do it intentionly to annoy you, I apology. But I do not really have another way to conceive you what I feel except for that. And the posting of this blog suggest that is exactly what it was doing

3.
With regard to China’s problems. I assert that only Chinese could solve them, and it is eventully the Chinese task to make China a better place.

Here then comes another question, what you and other non-Chinese’s role here, can you help us?

There are tens of thousands of Chinese studying abroad right now, the number is also increasing. It is for sure that Chinese ARE learning a lot from the West, this is true both for science, tehnologies as well as political ideas. It is a form of help I approciate with gratitude.

But there is another thing here, how can the Western skills, knowledges and ideas help China, or a more relevant question, how can you and many other non-Chinese individual help China?

It appears that your choice is to point out China’s problem, engage in open debates, find the solution, apply these solutions.

This method sounds perfectly ok and normal. But there is a problem of assumption. It’s worth to point out the problem that Chinese do not have no knowledge, give a solution Chinese have yet to work out. But there is a problem with this, do Chinese really have no idea where China’s problem lies? Do they really have no idea what to solutions are?

This makes me recall a recent case, When New Zealand’s PM Helen Clark signed an open letter protesting China’s death penalty, freedom of expression,etc. The reception on Chinese internet is mixed. Netizens generally support the latter but disagree with NZ’s position on death penalty.

The point I want to make is that, it is not that Chinese do not know what problems China has, or Chinese do not know the solution. I am annoyed when you write as if Chinese know none of them and are unwilling to solve them

Many of those issues are in fact very practical, all with different policy consequences. It is not as simple as black and white, good and evil.

In fact, reading this blog, I have to say, honestly, many of the solutions you proposed are simply minded and unworkable practically. That’s why I, like many other Chinese, like to say you need more understanding of China, at least to a degree that could give some useful and constructive advice,something that Chinese DO NOT know.

August 15, 2008 @ 10:17 pm | Comment

Correct , para 18 , post 64 “It’s worth to point out the problem that Chinese do not know”

August 15, 2008 @ 10:24 pm | Comment

@A Chinese

Btw, I really want to hear your opinion about post 48

LOL. This is what we Chinese call “A thief calling out loud to others to catch the thief”.

You still haven’t address why Dr. Sun’s “Min Quan” has nowhere been implemented in mainland China even though you claimed that his thoughts are “relevant” still in China.

You can run but you cannot hide.

August 15, 2008 @ 11:24 pm | Comment

@A Chinese

In fact, reading this blog, I have to say, honestly, many of the solutions you proposed are simply minded and unworkable practically. That’s why I, like many other Chinese, like to say you need more understanding of China, at least to a degree that could give some useful and constructive advice,something that Chinese DO NOT know.

Solutions are plenty have shown to have worked

1) Rule of law
– Are you ready to made judges independent? What about the consistency of applying laws? How about the fact that no one is above the law? But it seems that as long as you enjoy political power, you are above the law.
– Contract law in black and white? In China, people don’t give a shit about legal obligations; its all about how much you can bribe.

2) Separation of Powers
– Put in check and balance. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. But is the CCP ready to loosen its grip on power?

3) Anti-corruption
– Is there any genuine attempts to purge corruption out of Chinese politics?
_ In fact, anti -corruption drives merely becomes a political tool for one faction to defeat another in power struggles.
– Set up an independent corruption agency? Pay proper salaries for officials? Make sure that only qualified people become officials and not because of relations? ARe you doing any of these?

4) transparency
– HOw much does the ordinary Chinese know what the government do? How much assets does the government have? Without elections, how is the Chinese people going to pressure their leaders to be transparent?
– If not, is there any power to impeach the leader?

It seems that you know the problem and the solutions. But you have too much vested interests and you dare not step on the toes of the powerful to implement all these things which you jolly well address China’s problems.

So to avoid embarrassment and confronting problems, you would just dismiss such suggestions as “not constructive”, “not practical” and hope that problems would just go away.

Stop putting your head in the sand.

August 15, 2008 @ 11:45 pm | Comment

@a chinese

“Si:
He said, Mao was a great man despite all his faults. And he is serious about it.”

You cannot possibly be a Christian and describe a murderer of 30 million as a great man. it is like calling yourself a communist but endorsing no holds barred capitalism. doesn’t make any sense. oh, wait a minute………

August 15, 2008 @ 11:51 pm | Comment

sp

Just search on Chinese internet and goverment website, you will know the quantity and depth of such discussion. They are beatiful words, everyone like it， there are different vision about how to achieve them. You are just talking about the same thing that Chinese talked about for a long time

The word min quan in mainland China is expressed as ren quan(human rights), baidu yield 9,070,000 articles about that, given the censorship. You can also search popular forum like Tianya and Cat898 to see how people discuss these topics

You cannot really pretend to be blind and ignore the obvious, and claiming as if Chinese in PRC and government do not talk about it.

btw, your solution was the same as the one I proposed when I was 16 year old, I say exactly the same thing as you do.

August 16, 2008 @ 12:24 am | Comment

Si:

The thing is, that was what he said, I cannot change it, I am just translating it.

Further more, Christianity has never been that clean,right?
John King Fairbank estimate that China’s last Christian rebellion claimed 600 million lives (John King Fairbank, The Great Chinese Revolution 1800-1985 (New York: Harper & Row, 1986), 81. From Wikipedia).They are even worse than Communists

August 16, 2008 @ 12:29 am | Comment

sp:

I really suggest you to do some research first before you post next time. Do not just go to the traditional Chinese website, if you can read simplified chinese

August 16, 2008 @ 12:32 am | Comment

sp

The link below is China’s high school text book’s chapters on 1911 revoluation, you can have a look about what it said about Min zu, Min quan, Min sheng. These book all have online visions, if you are interested, just take a look

http://www.pep.com.cn/gzls/jszx/dg/zgjxdss/dzkb/200703/t20070305_282713.htm

August 16, 2008 @ 12:38 am | Comment

I’m thinking of wrapping this thread up because we have wandered a bit from the original topic, but a couple of points:

While Sun did speak about minquan 民权, his conceptualization of what that meant changed considerably over the course of his life and I would be hesitant before I felt comfortably labeling Sun a “d” democrat. Certainly he thought the electoral process should be part of the system so as to make government more responsive. He also wanted a five-power government (incorporating old elements of the censorate and the civil examination system) but at the same time he advocated a period of political tutelage under Party control and he famously said, “After China has established a powerful government, we must not be afraid as Western people are, that the government will become too strong and that we will be unable to control it.” That is certainly a quite different view than the one held by the framers of the US constitution, by way of example.

Sun’s easy to throw into an argument, as he can be made to support almost any case. His writings were hardly systematic and changed depending on the needs of the time and his increasing frustration with the progression of ‘his’ revolution. (Lest we forget, he read about the 1911 Wuchang Uprising in a newspaper while traveling by train in Denver on one of his many fund-raising junkets). He wasn’t really a theorist, and he was a horrible military/revolutionary leader (almost every plot he was personally involved with failed spectacularly), but he could talk, and he did have that ‘vision thing.’

Finally, about the Fairbank passage, my copy of The Great Chinese Revolution is at the office, but when I get there on Monday and check it, I’ll bet all the money in my pocket that it doesn’t say 600 million lives were lost in “China’s last Christian Rebellion”. (This is why I tell my students to steer clear of Wikipedia!) I think you’re referring to the Taiping Rebellion, and the top figure I’ve seen is around 60 million, with most accounts (including my own lecture) putting that number at around 30-35 million. Certainly nothing to sneeze at, but I would guess 600 million (I should check Ho Ping-ti on this) would be more than the total population of the Qing Empire in 1850. (In 1820 it was something like 400 million). Also, calling the Taiping “Christian” must be qualified given the rather radical doctrines (Hong Xiuquan as the son of God, brother of Jesus, Yang Xiuqing as “The Voice of God,” etc.) of the Taiping ideology.

August 16, 2008 @ 6:26 am | Comment

Jeremiah

Sorry about number, I was too rush on that

August 16, 2008 @ 8:56 am | Comment

@A Chinese

What’s with talking about “Min Quan”? Anybody can talk about it beautifully but what about practicing it? Implementation? Look, North Korea even called itself the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea ironically. Talk is cheap.

btw, your solution was the same as the one I proposed when I was 16 year old, I say exactly the same thing as you do.

LOL. So implicitly, are you telling us that the PRC hasn’t made any significant progress on these things since the time when you are sixteen? If that is the case, why should you be surprised about criticisms?

The link below is China’s high school text book’s chapters on 1911 revoluation, you can have a look about what it said about Min zu, Min quan, Min sheng. These book all have online visions, if you are interested, just take a look

But nothing says about implementing Min Quan. It mentions Min Quan but purposely leave out the part where Dr Sun had said that Min Quan had to be achieved through five separate branches of government such that there will be no concentration of power. Legislative powers are indirect “min quan” when people elect their representatives in the National Assembly. Direct “min quan” involves the right to censor and the right to become civil servants regardless of background and personal relationships. We certainly don’t see it mentioned in the textbook nor is it implemented in Communist China.

You should catch up reading on your Chinese history.

August 16, 2008 @ 11:00 am | Comment

@Jeremiah

Dr Sun did have his share of short-comings but he was nevertheless one of the most selfless leaders China had for centuries. Bear in mind that he gave up the presidency in favour of Yuan in order to avoid violence in the country but of course he made the mistake of trusting Yuan.

He advocated political tutelage not because he wanted it to be the permanent feature of the Chinese political system but because he was disheartened by his failure to unite China into a constitutional republic. It doesn’t help that the foreign powers chose to side with Yuan at the beginning and that the warlords had shown to be not trustworthy and unreliable as allies of the Republican revolution. So the only he had thought of was to centralise power temporarily in a Leninist way to steer the Republicanism forward in a situation where everone else was just thinking for themselves. His ultimate goal is to implement constitutionalism in China. Otherwise he would not have drawn up the Provisional Nanking Constitution to limit and define governmental power and Yuan later tore it up virtually as President because he found it too restrictive. Overall, therefore, Sun did believe in limited government although it may not be of the same degree as that of the Founding Fathers of America.

August 16, 2008 @ 11:09 am | Comment

I think that anyone connected with China should work for the violent overthrow of the current government (central, provincial and municipal), a complete purge of corrupt ultra-wealthy land development class, as well as a complete purge of the PSB. Next, the interim revolutionary government should be formed from the intellectual classes (university professors, lawyers, etc.) followed by universal elections. The only way to get rid of cancer that is CCP is to eliminate any trace of it even if it means the death of a 100 million or so. I think everyone in the west should work toward that end providing what assistance is necessary: education, communication and weapons.

August 16, 2008 @ 12:53 pm | Comment