Hhhhmm…

So Leni Riefenstalhesque

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leni_Riefenstahl

It reminds me of “Das Triumph des Willens”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triumph_of_the_Will

Both PRC60 adn TDW pretty good shows nevertheless, hope they enjoy it. 😛

September 19, 2009 @ 4:20 pm | Comment

Our “enlightened autocracy” friends sure know how to throw a party. Too bad they are only allowed to have one.

September 19, 2009 @ 6:41 pm | Comment

Good to see Mao will be smiling benevolently down on the whole affair.

September 20, 2009 @ 1:02 am | Comment

beautiful pics, really impressive indeed. Thanks for sharing

September 20, 2009 @ 1:41 am | Comment

This sort of wankfest only comes around once every 5 millennia.

September 20, 2009 @ 9:11 am | Comment

So Leni Riefenstalhesque

Yes, it’s only Nazi-like when China has national celebrations. When Americans display rabid jingoism it’s all just good fun.

Our “enlightened autocracy” friends sure know how to throw a party. Too bad they are only allowed to have one.

Too bad democracies are owned by an even smaller and more monolithic, narrowly focused entity- the corporations.

Good to see Mao will be smiling benevolently down on the whole affair.

He’s dead.

September 20, 2009 @ 10:46 am | Comment

America doesn’t hold celebrations like this – not with shutting down a major city with processions of tanks while silencing all voices of dissent, nor would we have the image of a past leader looming like a cult figure over any event, except a Glen Beck rally. That said, I wouldn’t compare what we see in the pictures with a Nazi event, although some of the photos do suggest a Riefenstahl-like appreciation of capturing vast, breathtaking images from unusual angles.

September 20, 2009 @ 11:00 am | Comment

America doesn’t hold celebrations like this – not with shutting down a major city with processions of tanks while silencing all voices of dissent

There are other ways to display nationalism, like dumping $700 billion into the military each year.

September 20, 2009 @ 11:28 am | Comment

We’re talking about celebrations. This post is about photos of China’s plans for the October 1 celebrations. If you just want to say the US is bad – which is all you really want to do, of course – just say it. But don’t wrap it in BS like, “Yes, it’s only Nazi-like when China has national celebrations. When Americans display rabid jingoism it’s all just good fun.”

September 20, 2009 @ 1:06 pm | Comment

France and Russia both emphasize a lot on troop parade at important anniversaries, the size of the parade and cost of preperation on Red Square in Moscow, and on Xiangselixie in Paris are no less than what China does. So you cannot link this to “only dictatorship do this” or “this is not normal thing to do”.

One common trait for countries that do these big troop parades is that those countries were often been attacked and invaded in recent history, and have come out of the invasion thanks to the troops, and those countries’ prosperity today are directly inherited and descended from their military’s fight during those times. All of them have very “heavy” history in recent times. It is a way to commemorate those troops, and to legitimize the current regime. This is just a common ritual in today’s politics.

Just look at the Red Square parades in Moscow and French troops across Xiangselixie in Paris in recent years, you’ll see that China’s parades are nothing special.

September 20, 2009 @ 1:14 pm | Comment

I share a campus with a local Chinese school, and it’s unnerving to have to endure martial music and uniformed students waving their arms around in mock manoeuvres. Apparently university students (university students!) who don’t subject themselves to this will not be allowed to pass. A lot of anger that they have to stand outside like idiots in these ridiculous outfits in +30C weather whilst the brood of these rulers can go out clubbing n Macau. But then, that’s what education is all about in this country.
By the way, I had to shell out US$60 just to be able to access sites everyone else is the civilised world can. Have to pay for water, too…
One more year…

September 20, 2009 @ 1:51 pm | Comment

Thanks Keir. but according to Hong Qi and his friends it’s the same in Paris. Uh huh.

September 20, 2009 @ 1:57 pm | Comment

“Yes, it’s only Nazi-like when China has national celebrations. When Americans display rabid jingoism it’s all just good fun.”

If you want to say only China can’t have nationalism, then go ahead and say it. Don’t wrap it in BS like “it’s SOOOOOO ‘Riefenstahlesque!” and lob snarky comments.

It’s disgusting how some posters here are actually ridiculous enough to compare a harmless celebration to Nazi Germany’s extermination of 30 million people.

But then, that’s what education is all about in this country.

Nationalist education would not be necessary if outsiders did not constantly try to undermine the Chinese state.

September 20, 2009 @ 2:40 pm | Comment

to Hong Qi , Richard and Keir:
I’m french 🙂
This kind of event is to prove the military power of the country, no matter it’s about war, killing people and/or self-defense, it’s just about the “look how powerful we are”.

…here’s is a small soldier version of the 14th July parade in Paris, tilt-shift effect, really worth the seeing:
http://www.divertissonsnous.com/2009/08/24/les-soldats-de-plomb-font-leur-defile-du-14-juillet/

(it’s not my blog BTW) ^^

September 20, 2009 @ 3:03 pm | Comment

Ex-Chinese Official Details Plan for World Domination

http://www.newsmax.com/navrozov/china_biological_russia/2009/09/17/261263.html

Today China observes the entire world, a world that might become part of the Chinese slave empire. Such an empire would be global for the first time.

Why was Chi “very excited” about it?

“If China’s global development will necessitate massive deaths in enemy countries, will our people endorse that scenario? Will they be for or against it? The fact is, our ‘development’ refers to the great revitalization of the Chinese nation, which of course, is not limited to the land we have now, but also includes the whole world.”

How to deal with America?

”America was first discovered by the ancestors of the yellow race, but Columbus gave credit to the white race. We the descendants of the Chinese nation are ENTITLED to the possession of that land!”

Chi does not consider German Nazism evil. He considers the Germans insufficiently superior as a race and hence a failure. “Our Chinese people are wiser than the Germans because, fundamentally, our race is superior to theirs.”

September 20, 2009 @ 4:07 pm | Comment

Good to see Mao will be smiling benevolently down on the whole affair.

Kind of creepy, isn’t it?

I think it just looks so boring. You would have to pay me to stand by the road-side to watch that sort of stuff. As I think Mr Crane said on the blog, it’s like North Korea planned it.

HongQi, Russia isn’t a democracy. The French also don’t celebrate the ruling political party during their events.

September 20, 2009 @ 7:04 pm | Comment

@merp: I hope you will never have to lost the things you take for granted in order to realize how wrong you are.

September 20, 2009 @ 10:08 pm | Comment

@pfelelep

Link was not working. But can be found in vimeo. Just klick here

http://vimeo.com/6037430

Vivre la France, vivre la revolution, vivre Napoleon! 😉

September 20, 2009 @ 10:35 pm | Comment

By the way. I hope the PLA tank driving is more carefully this time and don’t crash then against young students in TQ.

But joke, I know. Just couldn’t help.

September 20, 2009 @ 10:37 pm | Comment

If someone could do something similar to the toys soldier’s video in vimeo, but with terracotta warriors like figures instead it would be a blast!

September 20, 2009 @ 10:50 pm | Comment

I think it just looks so boring. You would have to pay me to stand by the road-side to watch that sort of stuff. As I think Mr Crane said on the blog, it’s like North Korea planned it.

HongQi, Russia isn’t a democracy. The French also don’t celebrate the ruling political party during their events.

Russia is not a democracy? Then why did the USSR dissolve? To change from one dictatorship to another? I though when USSr dissolved, finally Russia is free and liberated, and will say good bye to their old style, old national anthem, old military, etc. But you are saying they are all still there? Why? Are the Russian people just crazy to want to keep those things? Did Putin lose an election and refused to step down?

Of course I know you rather watch the Indian military parade, much fancier, much more entertaining, 20 monkeys stacked upside down on top of each other:

September 20, 2009 @ 11:47 pm | Comment

Indian monkeys during parade:
Indian parade

And for “forced patriotic education”. What about the millions of American School Children forced to stand up every morning, put their hands on their chests and recite: “I pledge allegiance….”. Even NON-CITIZENs are forced to recite this in school.

Stupid.

September 20, 2009 @ 11:50 pm | Comment

One thing most people here may not know: in recent years, it’s become a habit to invite foreign troops to the July 14th parade in Paris.

Two years ago ALL EU nations sent soldiers to Paris, actually:

http://paris.cafebabel.com/fr/post/2007/07/16/En-ce-14-Juillet-lEurope-etait-a-Paris

Last year I think I saw some Belgian, Spanish, Italian and Romanian troops.

Here’s a picture of American troops in Paris:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Bastille_Day_2002_westpoint2.jpg

And there’s a picture here somewhere with Indian troops in Paris:

http://indiangeopolitics.blogspot.com/2009/07/franco-indian-partnership.html

Long story short: the Paris parade is definitely NOT anything like the Beijing one.

September 21, 2009 @ 12:06 am | Comment

HongQi:

Those “monkeys” are Berlin policemen, not Indian nationals. It’s written on their uniforms, but I guess you can’t read.

You’re an idiot AND a racist.

September 21, 2009 @ 12:12 am | Comment

What’s your point? Many foreign guests and dignitaries are invited to the troop parades. As to soldiers, China invited American and French soldiers to make an apperance to the parade, but they declined. So how can you blame the host if the guests decline?

September 21, 2009 @ 12:33 am | Comment

“Indian monkeys” – I think we all know what kind of a person HongQi is. (Was there ever any doubt?)

September 21, 2009 @ 12:47 am | Comment

To the new readers arriving here via this link: I’m delighted to welcome you to my blog. If, however, you simply want tro curse at me and/or call me a “China hater” I request that you first look through this site and get a grasp of where I stand on China, a country I love and hope to return to soon. If you only want to curse and call people names based on ignorance, your comment probably won’t appear. Also, all comments are monitored and may take some time to appear. Thanks a lot and thanks for visiting.

September 21, 2009 @ 1:04 am | Comment

Top 10 reasons there is no such kind of parade in America:
1.no more troops left, although there are many in Iraqi, Afghanistan, Germany, south Korean, japan, etc, it is stretched too thin for too long that even the power of Katrina cannot pull enough back
2.no more money left at all, $700B annually and >$500k a laser bomb to kill a goat are just too expensive to have a celebration with the endless wars
3.not enough time to show, too many weapons from America, new strike airplanes, new missiles, new subs, and more and more effective killing machines that can destroy the whole world tens if not hundreds of times, just give each of these weapons a second to show up in the celebration, it might take days
4.not enough space to show, as above, there is no one place other than the Arizona desert that can hold such a big event, but the rick senators just will not go there at all
5.not enough people to watch, there are currently more than 20 million (and the number is still growing) people out of job because the most recent financial crisis in America, and many more people are working their ass off to just keep their houses barely, no time left for them to watch the celebration of the fantastic country any more
6.the country has too many enemies, because of its world police role (just not sure who name it first), the middle east is still in the fighting, which generated even more all over the world
7.the country has the best people, all the Indians are good Indians now (those not were laid down centuries ago); you will also find the best news anchors on CNN, or FOX.
8.the country is too peaceful, it is one of the only three countries in UN not adopted the “Prevention of Outer Space Arms Race.” resolution (the other two are Micronesia, and Israel, not surprisingly)
9.the country has the best free market, although GM could be spelled as “Government Machine” now
10.the country is too responsible for the whole mankind, although it refused to sign the Kyoto Protocol

September 21, 2009 @ 1:07 am | Comment

Very amazing. What a powerful motherland, so powerful as to crush easily any attempt against it. For many Chinese there who can’t fight the rape by the Chinese regime, they just have to find a way to enjoy it.

No matter what, the grand military parade staged by the Chinese govt in no way can emulate that of the former Soviet Union, which had many of the best weapons and good-looking women and men to show off to the world during the parade, no matter how hard the Chinese govt tries to put together the best they can have. Now with Soviet Union gone, China can imitate it without worrying its copycat action being dwarfed by it

September 21, 2009 @ 1:28 am | Comment

Reality Check, I criticize America all the time here, just in case you didn’t know. It’s not a question of whether or not America holds parades. It’s about being so insecure and paranoid that you have have to hold a parade like this and censor any criticism of it. And even before the Bush administration brought us into war, you would never have seen this sort of spectacle in America; sure we hold military parades, but never with accompanying repression and never on anything approaching a scale like this. It’s nice for China to be proud, but this October 1 spectacle has only hurt it in the eyes of the world.

September 21, 2009 @ 1:39 am | Comment

@Richard

A pity newcomers come to call names instead participating in civilized discussions.

Hope they are just the exception and not the rule. A shame for such and old “civilization”

September 21, 2009 @ 1:41 am | Comment

at least we do not use the arm to invade iraq to kill innocent people.

September 21, 2009 @ 1:53 am | Comment

you would never have seen this sort of spectacle in America

Just look at those ceremonies at West Point, those soldiers flipping their guns in the air, those 21 gun salute, etc. When Obama took office, look at the size and scale of the ceremony, you tell me Washington DC was not shut down because of it? You tell me people were not inconvenineced because of it? When Reagan died, the entire main street of Washington DC was shut down for processions, horses, salutes, all kinds of complicated ceremonies. Even when Ted Kennedy died, look at all those fancy ceremonies. And every July 4th, there’s a huge celebration and concert in DC, and every city, the entire City was shutdown for this. In China, we only have this parade once every 10 years, and you think we should not be allowed to celerbate?

In terms of “ceremonies” and “celerbations” and “parades”, the USA is a thousand times fancier and bigger than China, a thousand times.

Stupid.

September 21, 2009 @ 2:57 am | Comment

you would never have seen this sort of spectacle in America

Also, even if this is true, what does it mean? Never seeing this in America = this must be wrong? Subconsiously, then, that is your standard isnt it? “Everything America does must be right, everything America does not do must be wrong.” To judge whether something should not should not be done, just check if America does it or not.

This sentence betrayed your inner psychology – the pscyhology of using America as a standard for everything. Hahahaha.

To use this logic, Kyoto Protocol is wrong because America never signed it. Land mines are right, because America never signed to oppose it. Space warefare is right, America never signed to oppose it. Genocide is right, because America slaughtered millions of Indians. Discrimination is right, because colored people are discriminated in America. Lying to the world is right, because America lied to the world to invade Iraq.

September 21, 2009 @ 3:05 am | Comment

el chino AIP:
first of all, this is a good name you named yourself. just enjoy your name.
secondly i see your hatred from your words, you give other people bad name, you want many chinese to fight against their government, you call the government chiese regime, you hope china will be down like others.
but do you know how many people support their government or against it? i do not think you can tell, you do not know what is the happening there and you want it be bad. so, i believe it is important the chinese government be strong, has power to protect themselves.
you hate chinese government, but they have got 10000 time more supportors than againsters in china, over 90% support rate, do you know that? you have your way of life and he has his. is it bather you? it has not send any troops to land on your homeland, is it wrong? it says its own language, is it bather you or against you? the languange has more than 5000 years histroy you know?
i do not believe you will support anyone doing anything illegally, in usa it is not allowed not supported, he will maybe be shot 246 times by the police. i do not support them whatever nice name they use.
el chino AIP, you are an eval minded creature. you will live no peace for your evalness

September 21, 2009 @ 3:19 am | Comment

el chino AIP
wish you live in one of the former SU countries. u need to get more educated.

September 21, 2009 @ 3:38 am | Comment

dior
too bad you do not know how many parties there are
but they have no support by massive people, do not blame oters

September 21, 2009 @ 3:42 am | Comment

you would never have seen this sort of spectacle in America

Also, even if this is true, what does it mean? Never seeing this in America = this must be wrong?

HongQi, you are such a joker, I love you! The only reason I said that was someone was arguing above that you see this kind of thing in the US all the time. Of course you don’t. Maybe a military school will hold a big parade, or maybe there’ll be a holiday like Memorial Day with a military parade. But we never arrest people or censor them for not wanting the parade to take place and/or for writing articles criticizing the parade. And we never spend the time and effort on laughable propaganda like this. I would say the closest we came was under bush, with Mission Accomplished, which all of us laughed at, with a twinge of fear because it was a very unhealthy thing. And then we threw the GOP out of power.

September 21, 2009 @ 4:59 am | Comment

Russia is not a democracy? Then why did the USSR dissolve?

The USSR dissolved because it collapsed. There was little planning, it happened in a relatively short space of time. The beginnings of democracy grew but it was weak. Even before Putin tried to reverse those changes, elements of the USSR had been kept like the KGB, which apart from a name-change was still as bad as ever.

Are the Russian people just crazy to want to keep those things?

Most Russians don’t care that much about democracy. They’re in love with strong leaders like Putin, Stalin and the Tsars.

Did Putin lose an election and refused to step down?

Putin didn’t stand for election. He was waiting until his cronies changed the law to let him stand again.

Of course I know you rather watch the Indian military parade, much fancier, much more entertaining, 20 monkeys stacked upside down on top of each other

Hong, one tip. It’s a bad idea to make racist comments – it shows you’re loosing the debate.

September 21, 2009 @ 4:59 am | Comment

Raj, agree with most of what you say but am not sure how many Russians are enamored of Stalin. I know there are some, but I suspect they are a small minority. Like the die-hards who miss 30-percent-wrong Chairman Mao.

September 21, 2009 @ 5:02 am | Comment

It seems we are getting some new visitors, there must be a rift opened through the Chinese GFW(tm). Welcome to the other side. 😉

September 21, 2009 @ 5:11 am | Comment

Censorship from the U.S Richard?

Interesting. Soon, you will be overwhelmed and you will give up.

MK Ultra, free choices, opinions, whatever. Google it and you might find some disturbing truth about yourself. I’ve tried, really hard, but you are still dismissing it. I pity you somehow, but I’m YOURFRIEND as well.

We will meet soon. Very soon. You are not going back to China Richard, but somewhere very close to it. You’ve hinted about it already, because it’s in your hearth and your mind already.

See you soon.

A friend.

September 21, 2009 @ 5:17 am | Comment

Hi! Haven

The Chinese govt doesn’t bother me at all and I don’t hate it either. I just despise it (actually the Chinese govt benefits the U.S. and world by running a giant sweatshop in China and acting like an ATM for the U.S).

China needs to be strong to protect itself from the threat from within China, the threat from its own people, not from foreign invasion. You may know, most time historically, a Chinese dynasty collapsed when the people had enough of it and rose against it.

A high supporting or approval rate among the people doesn’t necessarily legitimize a regime. In fact, the higher the approval or supporting rate, the more evil the regime is. The legitimacy and approval rate are often in reverse relationship. For example, Saddam’s regime used to enjoy a 99.9% approval rate and the great leader Kim Jong Il now has about the same high supporting rate, while Bush regime got a pathetic 50% approval rate among the Americans.

Nowadays, a lot of Americans took to the street to protest Obama regime’s health care reform. His good approval rate is in danger.

September 21, 2009 @ 5:27 am | Comment

sure we hold military parades, but never with accompanying repression and never on anything approaching a scale like this.

What a laugh, 300,000-1,000,000 dead Iraqis isn’t repression? America has killed more people in the Iraq war than China has executed since the Deng reforms.

September 21, 2009 @ 6:26 am | Comment

Merp, explore this blog and see how much of it is devoted to criticism of Bush and his wars. Maybe 40 percent, up until the new administration. I know, America has done oodles of bad things. But we’re talking about China’s parade. Pointing to how naughty and mean America has been in no way justifies the censorship and paranoia that has come with this celebration. I criticize both – America’s and China’s stupidities. Just as I praise the good that both countries do. Look around the blog and you will see – if you really want to. But that may take you out of you comfort zone in which you can blindly and rather stupidly dismiss any valid argument about China’s behavior with the simplistic mantra, “But the US is worse!” I know, it feels nice to be safe and snug in your fenqing cocoon, but do try to see beyond it.

September 21, 2009 @ 7:20 am | Comment

A pity newcomers come to call names instead participating in civilized discussions.

Hope they are just the exception and not the rule. A shame for such and old “civilization”

But if a memberof an old civilization meets a pig, a beast, should he still bother recite poetry to it? I think not. If a human meets a pig, he simply binds its legs onto a bench with a rope, and stick a pair of scissors into its belly.

This will be my attitude towards “people” like you.

September 21, 2009 @ 7:28 am | Comment

sure we hold military parades, but never with accompanying repression and never on anything approaching a scale like this.

Hello? Why you want a m-parade anyway? You have all your troops all over the world killing “evil” people all the places with so many “precision” weapons, your killing numbers are the headlines of all major cable channels as the outcome of your “necessary” war. Every people sees the blood and causalities, and is afraid, is this what you want ultimately? If you already get it, why you have to pay it anyway to have another m-parade? I think your banks definitely have a better math training than you.

As for China’s celebration, it is far more than a m-parade, it is another show like the one before the Olympic game, but with more weapons to make people feel safer. Hope this just make you afraid.

September 21, 2009 @ 7:31 am | Comment

HongQi you were banned and I graciously allowed you back in because I try to be magnanimous. But you are begging to be banned again. Your “Indian monkeys” remark said it all. We know what you’re about.

September 21, 2009 @ 7:31 am | Comment

Who started it first?

September 21, 2009 @ 7:32 am | Comment

You tell me: who started it first? You can give us the link to the comment that you think “started it.”

September 21, 2009 @ 7:42 am | Comment

First comment:
So Leni Riefenstalhesque (comparing China to Nazi)

Second comment:
This sort of wankfest only comes around once every 5 millennia.(comparing a national day celebration to self-touch).

Third comment:
Hope they are just the exception and not the rule. A shame for such and old “civilization”

What do you say now?

September 21, 2009 @ 7:45 am | Comment

Saying the shots look like those of Riefenstahl – well, that’s quite an extreme reaction on your part. (And they kind of do, though that isn’t saying the Chinese are like Nazis, just that the event and the photo angles of it are reminiscent of her films of similar large events, which is not unfair.) And have a sense of humor – it is a wank-fest. Much like the US national conventions. And like Fox News and most blogs. For these remarks to draw so much vitriol – well something’s out of proportion. But it’s always the same with you – everything evokes the same explosive The US Sucks response, always. And about your “Indian monkey” remark – care to explain where you were coming from with that? If someone had said “Chinese monkeys” I probably would have deleted it, and I probably should have deleted your comment as well.

September 21, 2009 @ 8:03 am | Comment

@Richard,

It’s probably a good idea to just delete the “monkey” comments before more trolls come roaming on this post.

September 21, 2009 @ 10:03 am | Comment

The national celebrations of another country are always going to leave foreigners cold. Riefenstahlesque? The flood-lights and the pillars are classic Nuremburg props, but the torch-lit parades, soaring eagles, black uniforms and patent leather of the Nazi parade are absent. It is much more in the line of Arirang or the Soviet May-day.

September 21, 2009 @ 11:36 am | Comment

I guess the main thing you can criticise it for is the sheer kitsch of the whole thing – the woman’s militia uniforms in particular. Not that I expect these kinds of events to demand haute couture, but the sight of massed legions of sub-machine-gun-toting women in powder-blue uniforms and go-go boots goose-stepping past is going to be at once grotesque and (to the inner fascist) strangely attractive.

George Orwell said it best:

“One rapid but fairly sure guide to the social atmosphere of a country is the parade-step of its army. A military parade is really a kind of ritual dance, something like a ballet, expressing a certain philosophy of life. The goose-step, for instance, is one of the most horrible sights in the world, far more terrifying than a dive-bomber. It is simply an affirmation of naked power; contained in it, quite consciously and intentionally, is the vision of a boot crashing down on a face. Its ugliness is part of its essence, for what it is saying is ‘Yes, I am ugly, and you daren’t laugh at me’, like the bully who makes faces at his victim. Why is the goose-step not used in England? There are, heaven knows, plenty of army officers who would be only too glad to introduce some such thing. It is not used because the people in the street would laugh.”

September 21, 2009 @ 11:48 am | Comment

I stand in utter amazement of anyone who can endure a prolonged debate with these masses of pro-CCP posters whose only real response to criticism always amounts to, “Oh yeah? Well, the U.S. is BAD!”

Almost inevitably this argument is presented with blithe indifference as to whether the other poster supports current U.S. policy. Often enough it is presented with blithe indifference as to whether the other poster is even an American. Just so long as we can say the U.S. is BAD, all failings of the current Chinese government are rendered null and void. 中國共產黨萬歲﹗

There will come a day when the entire country has choked to death on smog and toxic sludge, and the last Chinese blogger alive will respond to criticism of that fact from any random foreigner with, “Well, the U.S. pollutes, too!”

Hint to any incoming pro-CCP poster who does not understand why this is not a convincing argument: Go look up 人身攻击的谬误 on Wikipedia.

I’m not sure whether to admire or question the sanity of any China blogger who can continue to ram their heads against that wall of stupid day after day. It can’t possibly be very rewarding, and the chances of changing their minds are infinitesimal.

September 21, 2009 @ 12:34 pm | Comment

FOARP, I adore that orwell quote. Thanks for sharing.

Hong Xiuguan, thanks for a superb comment. They don’t call them “angry youth” for nothing.

September 21, 2009 @ 12:45 pm | Comment

I stand in utter amazement of anyone who can endure a prolonged debate with these masses of pro-CCP posters whose only real response to criticism always amounts to, “Oh yeah? Well, the U.S. is BAD!”

Everytime I make a criticism of America on an American forum, the usual response is always :”And this coming from a citizen of a country who abuses human rights, etc, etc, etc.”

So why not teach your own citizens how to engage in proper debate?

My job is to defend the CCP, I love the CCP, I enjoy the CCP, I support the CCP, I hope the CCP rules China for another 100 years, 200 years, 500 years. And I love saying it in front of you guys. What are you going to do? What are you doing to do?

Long live the CCP, long live Chairman Mao, long live dictatorship.

September 21, 2009 @ 12:48 pm | Comment

Acchh! Silly me. I forgot Chinese bloggers can’t access Chinese wikipedia, and therefore getting access to the meaning of 人身攻击的谬误 might not be so straightforward.

“Well, the U.S. bans wikipedia to protect it’s citizens against evil foreigners, too!”

Ummm…yeah. Anyway, just search around with the term somewhere that the Glorious Motherland hasn’t deemed too harmful for you, friends.

September 21, 2009 @ 12:51 pm | Comment

@Ecodelta – From the Wiki article on Triumph of the Will:

“The first controversy over Triumph occurred even before its release, when several generals in the Wehrmacht protested over the minimal army presence in the film. Only one scene, the review of the German cavalry, actually involved the German military. The other formations were party organizations that were not part of the military.

Although I guess you can argue that the PLA is itself a party organisation.

September 21, 2009 @ 1:35 pm | Comment

Everytime I make a criticism of America on an American forum, the usual response is always :”And this coming from a citizen of a country who abuses human rights, etc, etc, etc.”

So why not teach your own citizens how to engage in proper debate?

So what you’re saying, Red Star, is that since people on another forum are being assholes, the best way you can respond is to come over here and be an asshole in a like manner?

FOARP, it’s true the film focuses on the rally and not the military, but there is plenty of military imagery and military music. Maybe not enough to please the Wehrmacht, but it’s there.

September 21, 2009 @ 1:44 pm | Comment

I was originally from China and I totally agree with you. Chinese government is just like Nazi. I am glad that there are more and more Chinese start to find out the truth behind the fake shows played by the government.

September 21, 2009 @ 1:45 pm | Comment

Crystal, the Chinese government is NOT like the Nazis, and I have never said they are. Quite the contrary – I believe there are many people in the CCP who are trying their best to help their people under very difficult circumstances. The party does some dreadful things, but so do most governments. The problem is its lack of accountability and rule of law. These are improving, albeit slowly, but to say they are like Nazis is as simplistic and inaccurate as saying th same about America. We do some atrocious things, too, but as with China, our government also does a lot of good – a lot. So please refrain from stereotyping and from painting all of China with such a broad and unfair brush.

Oh, and just in case anyone’s wondering, nearly all of the anti-American comments on this thread are coming from – you guessed it – people posting from America. That includes our friend HongQi, of course. The irony is delectable.

September 21, 2009 @ 1:46 pm | Comment

“I believe there are many people in the CCP who are trying their best to help their people under very difficult circumstances.”

I have met such people. They were doctors, lawyers, teachers, agronomists, engineers, architects, city planners – people for whom CCP membership was an encumbrance, a waste of time.

“the Chinese government is NOT like the Nazis”

All single-party dictatorships share common features – a sense of humour not being one of them.

“just in case anyone’s wondering, nearly all of the anti-American comments on this thread are coming from – you guessed it – people posting from America.”

Well, given the block, they could hardly be coming from China, now, could they? I don’t think there’s anything wrong with people who live in America criticising America so long as it is constructive (which it hasn’t been). What would surely be much more strange would be for those praising China to all or mostly come from America – not so?

September 21, 2009 @ 2:04 pm | Comment

Actually the Wehrmacht was one of the remaining powers in Germany at variance with the Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei. They didn’t agree completely with their policies but eventually they trudge along… specially while victories where coming.

I knew the post was going to produce some overreaction from some of our visitors. I did it on purpose.

But I wanted to show something more..

The tragic history of a film director like Leni Riefenstahl. The glorification of a party and not of a country. The manipulation of the grudges and fears of a great country and its people for its own totalitarian purposes.

Some quotes in Wikipedia article
“ It is our will that this state and this Reich shall endure through the coming millenia. ”

“ The Party is Hitler – and Hitler is Germany just as Germany is Hitler! ”

You can can see these phrases repeating again in different places and times, but just with names changed.

There is also something else to learn from that film. How many people today, if moved to that time and place before WWII, would not be easily manipulated with that movie? When you see it with a critical it will help you to recognize the manipulations of authoritarian, not so authoritarian regimes and even stock traded companies. After seeing such a film, you will recognize those manipulations easier.

And yes. Leni was a great director. Revolutionary in many ways. But may be she was in the wrong place, at the wrong time and took some wrong decisions. But before blaming her, just think what you would do in her place.

By the way, Olympia is a great movie, if you see it you will see many of the Technics used in modern TV sports shows and movies. It may be not very impressive today, we are used to it now, but she was the first to do it.

September 21, 2009 @ 2:14 pm | Comment

@Foarp
“Although I guess you can argue that the PLA is itself a party organisation.”

Yes. I would argue that. 😉

The NSDAP party had also the Waffen SS. Full fledge military units. At the sole command of the party.

The question is. What is really the PLA? The country army of the party army?

September 21, 2009 @ 2:20 pm | Comment

@richard
“nearly all of the anti-American comments on this thread are coming from – you guessed it – people posting from America.”

Or coming through a proxy located in the US? That will be ironic indeed.

September 21, 2009 @ 2:24 pm | Comment

Foarp, I SO agree about the lack of sense of humor. Can you imagine Hu or any other dictator inviting people for a public roast of himself, the way US leaders do? (An annual ritual in DC, where the president makes fun of himself.)

About all these commenters being in America – it is FINE for them to be here and to criticize in America. Even I, when I lived in China, criticized the government from time to time. It’s the degree of the rage, the foaming at the mouth we see in HongQi at the very country where he’s chosen to live, blaming it for all the world’s ills and calling it a nation of murderers and repressors.

ecodelta, interesting thoughts on Triumph of the Will and Leni – but that’s a complicated issue and would take us way off-topic. Suffice it to say that comparing something out of a Riefenstahl film is not to compare that something with Nazism. She was a brilliant artist who, unfortunately, hitched her star to Hitler. Might we all have done the same thing at the time? Maybe. Not everyone did – many fled. But I can understand why she did what she did.

September 21, 2009 @ 2:28 pm | Comment

@Richard
“the Chinese government is NOT like the Nazis”
@FOARP
All single-party dictatorships share common features

Of course not, at least not in the gritty details… But the similarities of the authoritarian/totalitarian systems, its effects on people and country, and its dangers are quite similar.

September 21, 2009 @ 2:29 pm | Comment

@myself
“The country army of the party army?”

People’s army or party’s army should I say. 😉

Hhhhmm… But a party’s army is not a real army IMHO

September 21, 2009 @ 2:31 pm | Comment

@Richard
” Can you imagine Hu or any other dictator inviting people for a public roast of himself, the way US leaders do? ”

Mr Hu maybe not, but I think grandpa Wen is capable of doing that if given the chance. 😉

September 21, 2009 @ 2:34 pm | Comment

China’s dictatorship was more comparable to the Nazis when it was truly totalitarian – they were incredibly different systems (Germany was prospering hugely under Hitler for 9 years, while under Mao they mainly starved) but the controls were comparable, the total intrusion of the state into everything you did. Today’s China is hardly like that, and many people run web sites criticizing the government, something that would have been utterly unthinkable under Mao or Hitler (if the web existed then). Of course, critics in China can only go so far, and when big shiny events like October 1 come along they’re rounded up and silenced, at least for a while. But I reject the comparison with totalitarianism. Today’s China is far more open than that, for ll its flaws.

September 21, 2009 @ 2:38 pm | Comment

I still think grandpa Wen, when he retires, should run for the office of governor in California. Just to have something fun to entertain him in his retirement.

If mister Arnie Schwarzenegger could do it, then why not? 😉

September 21, 2009 @ 2:39 pm | Comment

@Richard
“But I reject the comparison with totalitarianism. Today’s China is far more open than that, for ll its flaws.”

I agree with that, the system evolved from totalitarian to authoritarian. It is similar in some ways to the evolution in Russian during Stalin and after Stalin.

What will be the next step? Stagnation, collapse, enlighten authoritarian regime, a very big Singapore or something else? Maybe even something quite different from what we may think today

September 21, 2009 @ 2:45 pm | Comment

@Ecodelta – Having never served in the military this is hard for me to answer, except that I know that in countries where conscription is an established and accepted part of life the army becomes much more the subject of public affection, much more a part of national society, than in countries like the UK and China where the army is either wholly or practically all-volunteer.

Nowadays in the UK the army is trying to recreate this bond through larger numbers of parades, publicisation of the military service of Prince Edwards and Prince Harry, and through holding open days. Events like this, on top of the military training received in school and university, reflect something similar on the part of the PLA, but their official role remains that of the armed wing of the CCP.

Here in Taiwan such efforts are not quite so necessary (although there will be a fair-sized parade on Double-10). All you need do is go to any railway station and you will see national servicemen in uniform on their way to and from their various assignments. High-flying jets in close formation and helicopter gunships occasionally buzzing overhead reinforce this impression of a country in which military preparedness is a necessary fact of national life. Whilst many see conscription as a waste of time best got over with quickly, few actually try to avoid it.

September 21, 2009 @ 2:51 pm | Comment

@Richard – Actually, I find the characterisation of the Chinese state as totalitarian entirely fair. The party does not limit itself to the political sphere only, and insists on subverting or destroying all movements that appear within society – as has been seen on the internet. As totalitarian as in the past? Obviously not. As totalitarian as its possible without throttling the economy? Yes. Nor have they learned nothing from the past – policies which actively turned people against them whilst only creating surface-level obedience have been weeded out, if not actually totally done away with.

September 21, 2009 @ 3:07 pm | Comment

@FOARP

And preventing the raising of a true civil society is one of the greatest damages the CCP is currently doing to CH, maybe even worst than preventing a true rule of law (instead of rule by law)

Not to speak of the moral and ethics disconnection of CH society, but that one is not only a CH problem, also a problem in other countries lately…

September 21, 2009 @ 5:53 pm | Comment

“You may know, most time historically, a Chinese dynasty collapsed when the people had enough of it and rose against it.”
???

el chino AIP, you got a lot of Chinese history to learn.

September 21, 2009 @ 11:44 pm | Comment

Going back to grandpa Wen…..

Here you can see him in action.

http://tinyurl.com/m84xja

IMHO one of the most modern politicians in CH today. In spite of belonging to CCP, not bad at all. 😉

September 22, 2009 @ 12:45 am | Comment

Forgot to tell. Courtesy of China Hearsay

http://tinyurl.com/lmsa3b

September 22, 2009 @ 12:47 am | Comment

I stand in utter amazement of anyone who can endure a prolonged debate with these masses of pro-CCP posters whose only real response to criticism always amounts to, “Oh yeah? Well, the U.S. is BAD!”

Because you’re using the U.S as your “model government”. So tell me, which country is both critical of China and entirely independent of the US? Most posters here are from the Anglosphere, all of which are either geopolitical extensions of the US or India… don’t even get me started on India.

There will come a day when the entire country has choked to death on smog and toxic sludge

Except that day will never come. Chinese people criticize the government when amongst themselves, but when foreigners use the CCP as a broad smear against the Chinese state and all of its peoples of course you’re going to get a reaction.

September 22, 2009 @ 2:46 am | Comment

———-

I was originally from China and I totally agree with you. Chinese government is just like Nazi. I am glad that there are more and more Chinese start to find out the truth behind the fake shows played by the government.

———-

Do you have any idea what Nazism is? One of its key elements is anti-communism. So China is communism and at the same time anti-communism???

Everyone chinese agrees it’s a show, there is no need to find out, but I’m sure 99% likes it.

Let me guess where you are coming from? Are you a Lun-Zi?

September 22, 2009 @ 3:14 am | Comment

Speaking of citizens criticizing the government in China, let me remind everybody here the early September demonstrations by the residents of Urumqi. It was a genuine people power moment. Thousands of people peacefully marched in the city, protesting against the failure of the security forces during the July race riots and calling for the resignation of the city party secretary. The government not only tolerated the movement, it actually responded to the people’s demand by dismissing the party secretary and the security chief of the city.

I want to ask why such a wonderful moment was barely covered in the Western media? Why no editorials or op-ed pieces were written in praise of these brave men and women? The only conclusion I can draw is the hypocrisy and bias that is deeply seated in the mentality of some Westerners. The Urumqi people expressed a viewpoint that was not compatible with the sensitivities of the Westerns. So they do not deserve to be mentioned.

September 22, 2009 @ 6:31 am | Comment

“Foarp, I SO agree about the lack of sense of humor. Can you imagine Hu or any other dictator inviting people for a public roast of himself, the way US leaders do? (An annual ritual in DC, where the president makes fun of himself.)”

Just read what you have posted here one more time, you will find the reason you think you have the kind of “humor” not understood by others, is really because you are so out of touch with the reality, it is rather ridiculous than entertaining.

Every line in your posts shows your assumption that what US did/is doing is the correct and best way, and any doubt about that will be labeled conveniently as “anti-America” and joked upon the identify of the questioner; what a good sense of humor, and what a “civil” way for discussion?

In this thread, you only show your way to dictate your skewed view of a growing power, perhaps you are just too afraid to find out why the world is not progressing as you planned.

September 22, 2009 @ 1:07 pm | Comment

Reality Check, I am outspoken in my criticism of the US government, and if you know this site (which you don’t) you’ll know that I feel the behavior of America in recent years makes it almost impossible for the US to criticize China. We’ve tortured, nurtured corruption, held people without charges, etc. I despise many of the awful things we’ve done. I also acknowledge some very cool things about both America and China. (Look around the site and see how much heat I’ve taken for being “too soft on China” as I praise its approach to foreign relations and securing the natural resources it needs to continue growing.) Some things I like about American government, as I mentioned, include its leaders’ ability to laugh at themselves (the annual presidential roast is a good example) and the fact that we have free elections and can throw those who got us into Iraq, for example, out of power. Very few things in life are black and white. This blog’s mantra is that there are good and bad things about both China and the US, and your comment reeks of ignorance of what i write about here. If you want to see the truth (which I suspect you don’t, because it’s far easier to be intellectually lazy and fall back on simplistic default argument – You don’t understand China! You think America is better than China), just look around at what I’ve actually written before shouting out the first thing that comes into your head. Thanks for visiting.

Serve, shall I apply that same logic to all of the things the Chinese media don’t cover? Because there are lots and lots of things. Things they don’t cover at all. Many, many Western media did indeed cover the Urumqi demonstrations in early September and there were well over a thousand articles referencing it, as well as generous coverage of the syringe attacks. I agree, coverage isn’t always ideal, but you can’t say the government makes it easy for reporters trying to cover news in Xinjiang. You can find plenty of links to stories of foreign reporters beaten there.
.

September 22, 2009 @ 2:17 pm | Comment

@Richard, I praise you patience 😉

September 22, 2009 @ 2:38 pm | Comment

You have earned a place in paradise…or at least a trip, all expenses, included to Hangzhou. 🙂

http://tinyurl.com/kjmo55

September 22, 2009 @ 2:46 pm | Comment

“Because you’re using the U.S as your “model government”. So tell me, which country is both critical of China and entirely independent of the US? Most posters here are from the Anglosphere, all of which are either geopolitical extensions of the US or India… don’t even get me started on India.”

No, merp, we are not. We are using the ideal of a peaceful liberal democratic society founded on the rule of law as a “model government”, which is really not too radical unless you just really like dictatorship. When the U.S. falls short of that ideal, as it quite often does, it too comes under attack, and rightfully so. Even from Americans. Hell, if you know the American left wing well at all, you would say ESPECIALLY from Americans.

Too many Chinese, however, are simply unable to process the idea of constructive criticism. They see pointing out flaws not so much as an attempt to make people aware of a problem and therefore hopefully get people to work to fix it, but as a personal attack on their nationality, a direct insult to their country to be responded to in a very knee-jerk fashion. This is not a productive approach, and neither is ignoring any given criticism because it comes from a ‘foreigner.’

Above all, it makes for some very tedious debating, about as fun as listening to a political debate in which one side carefully makes a variety of points in support of his position only for his opposition to yell out, “My opponent buggers goats!” and declare himself the victor.

September 22, 2009 @ 2:48 pm | Comment

Two videos of the famous Chinese comedian 周立波 (don’t tell me you haven’t heard of him or seen his work, if so, it’s like person proclaiming he’s “familiar” with American society and culture yet do not know who Billy Krystal or Robin Williams are )

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtHLs31bRaQ
(Impersonating Mao Zedong, Deng Xiaoping, Jiang Zemin. At the end, he jokes “Ok ok , I gotta stop now, or I’ll get arrested, and you too!”)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BU5SO3yWpAg (scroll to 2:49)
(Impersonating Wen Jiaobao. Joking about his frequent empty PR appearances that have no substance. Quote: “2008, when we Chinese are riding the train, it derails. When we Chinese are riding the plane, it crashes. When we Chinese are sitting at home, it earthquakes. Wen Jiaobao has warned about all of these! He said in 2007: “2008 will be a difficult year.” But we didn’t listen to him! We didn’t listen to our beloved Premier!”)

These two are not underground videos, they are sold to full house theaters in downtown Shanghai.

September 22, 2009 @ 8:17 pm | Comment

Look, Richard. My point is not whether the foreign media covered Urumqi protests, they did. China let reporters travel there rather freely. The issue here is the attitude of the Westerners toward the demonstrators. Do you know any editorials or op-ed pieces that praise the protesters? Or even discuss their motives? Remember when Tibetans or Uighurs burned down shops and killed shop keepers, NYT claimed that China was oppressing minorities. But when Urumqi Han protested lawfully and peacefully, the West decided to ignore them. Is this double standard, hypocrisy, or downright racism?

September 22, 2009 @ 9:46 pm | Comment

HongQi, wow, you found a video of a Chinese comedian who makes fun of his government. Too bad it’s totally irrelevant. Go back to what started this sub-topic – it was the observation that China’s leaders never make fun of themselves. Now, that’s not a crime and it may never happen due to cultural perceptions in Asia (and elsewhere) about the elevated status of the leader, which you’ll find at businesses as well. It’s just something I appreciate about my own politicians, their willingness to spoof themselves. Perhaps you saw Obama’s appearance in a roast where he made jokes about his dependence on teleprompters, and his regretting that his parents gave him the middle name Hussein. Or when Bush, in very poor taste, went looking for Iraq’s non-existent WMDs. That ability to laugh at yourself and not take yourself too seriously is an aspect of American politics I actually like. I am not condemning China for not doing the same.

This is an example, by the way, of HQ diverting the thread over a small point someone made along the way, and he’ll foam on about it as he tries to hijack the conversation. We’ve seen it many, many times.

Serve: The issue here is the attitude of the Westerners toward the demonstrators. Do you know any editorials or op-ed pieces that praise the protesters?

No, though I haven’t read them all. (By the way, do you know any that condemn the protesters? I don’t. That might be a real indication of bias.) But let’s turn that aroud (because it’s an odd argument. Do you know any Chinese state media that praise:

– the Tiananmen mothers?
– the Dalai Lama?
– students who have the courage to set up pro-democracy groups?
– Taiwan’s pro-democracy movement? (After all, lots of these people demonstrated peacefully and politely for something they believe in, protesting perceived injustices. Why no coverage?)

But this is not a serious argument, of course. Just because you or I saw something we perceive as newsworthy and positive, we can’t condemn the news media for not covering it the way we think is right. Look at the insane teabaggers – they were furious that the media didn’t give them more, and more positive coverage. To them, as to you, the lack of positive coverage was an outrage. But it’s quite typical for the media to give scant coverage go the nice, happy, peaceful parts of the demonstrations. They focus on the discord and the blood. Sorry, but that’s how the media work, and as someone who works very closely with the media I can confirm it’s true. Get it out of your head that this was a case of selectively and intentionally ignoring a story. That’s pure fantasy.

September 22, 2009 @ 11:28 pm | Comment

Richard,

When was the last time the US praised.

– Castro’s Cuba,
– Communists (Russia, China, or Vietnamese)
– Secessionists to the Hawaiian Island.
– Al Qaeda
– Hezbollah, etc…

One man’t terrorist is another man’s freedom fighter.

September 23, 2009 @ 3:08 am | Comment

Nobody praises the Dalai in China because he is a criminal.

I don’t know what you mean by the pro-democracy movement in Taiwan. Everyone is pro-democracy there. If you mean the pro-independence movement, it is not praised in China for the same reason above.

September 23, 2009 @ 3:11 am | Comment

Make it “pro-independence” in Taiwan. Sorry, typo.

Criminality may be in the eye of the beholder. You skirted the key point of my comment – those examples I listed were just there to make you think about how China’s media doesn’t cover many things that we on the outside believe are deserving, just as you wonder about the US media not covering something you seem to think as newsworthy. However, you are starting your argument on a weak foot: As I read through the links on Han Chinese in Urumqi, I see literally countless articles that describe their frustration and anger at deteriorating public safety. It’s all there. But you are so wedded to the anticnn notion that the Western media are callous and always slant the news against China that you are blind to what they re actually doing. (I.e., covering a complicated story as competently as they can under very difficult circumstances.)

September 23, 2009 @ 4:10 am | Comment

There are two types of people we are talking about here: the reporters, and the editors/op-ed columnists. Many reporters in China do a fine job. I never deny that. My issue is with the editors and the columnists. They have the power to put one story on the front page and bury another one deeply in Section C. Most articles about the September Urumqi protests went to Section C. Then the editors/columnists selectively write about China. If one lawyer is temporarily detained, they tell people that China is turning its back to rule of law, but when tens of thousands of people took to the street, confronting the armed police, to demand law and order, the editors suddenly lost interest. Don’t you think it is odd that they have nothing to say about the Urumqi protests? What do you think they will do if Tibetans take to the street, for whatever reasons, in similar numbers?

September 23, 2009 @ 5:56 am | Comment

@pug_ster
“When was the last time the US praised.
– Castro’s Cuba,
– Communists (Russia, China, or Vietnamese)
– Secessionists to the Hawaiian Island.
– Al Qaeda
– Hezbollah, etc…
One man’t terrorist is another man’s freedom fighter.”

You are missing the point. One thing is praising and another thing is censor any information about it, preventing anyone to discuss about it, actively delete any post and block any blogs about it.

About Cuba
The embargo policy has damaged more US interest than anything else. Still it seems more Cuban are interested in going to the US than the other way around except as tourist. How long are the queues to get a Cuban Visa in your city?
About the embargo at last it seems things are moving in the right direction, just read the news.

About Vietnam
I cannot see greater praise that can be given than acknowledging the horrors of VN war. Nor greater prise for both countries to put aside those grievances and work together. Even McCain, former pilot who fought against VN and suffered long years of imprisonment an torture has no grudge against VN, nor VN against him. Actually he is much admired there.
Now… When I see the constants rows between Japan and CH….

– Secessionists to the Hawaiian Island.
Are their blogs blocked? Does the US thumb the nose of the primer minister/president of other countries about them? Is there an old man or an old woman living far away from Hawai to which they blame the constant trobles, curfews and riots in Hawai?

– Al Qaeda
Are you up to date with last developments? Bush is out, a new president is in. Have you hear how he has addressed the muslim world? Are you awere that he has been elected although his family has muslim roots? Instead of promoting constant hate they are trying to address the grievances of the muslim world, irak and afganistan not withstanding.
How long have been PLA troops in Tibet? Will you bet with me how many US troops will be in Irak in 5 years?

September 23, 2009 @ 6:05 am | Comment

@serve
“Nobody praises the Dalai in China because he is a criminal.”

You definitely don’t travel much beyond CH borders…..

September 23, 2009 @ 6:06 am | Comment

@serve
When I mean China, I do not mean the former colonial and imperial possessions of the long gone Qing empire, but of China Island. 😛

http://tinyurl.com/5dvofk

September 23, 2009 @ 6:21 am | Comment

@serve
More detailed information about CH geopolitics

http://tinyurl.com/6kkfcb

Interesting read.

September 23, 2009 @ 6:26 am | Comment

Serve, I actually agree with you about a lot of the editors and op-ed columnists, and even some of my favorite progressive bloggers. At times they simply don’t know what they’re talking about.

@ecodelta@serve
“Nobody praises the Dalai in China because he is a criminal.”

You definitely don’t travel much beyond CH borders…..

Heh.

September 23, 2009 @ 6:44 am | Comment