How much did the CCP pay you for this piece? 😉

May 8, 2007 @ 8:45 pm | Comment

they pay more than the CIA, that’s for sure.

May 8, 2007 @ 10:18 pm | Comment

Richard,

A very poignant post. I hate to use that word, poignant, as it is not one I would have used as an uneducated southern redneck,if I was in a normal conversation with my peers.
Having said that, I can only share this.

When a group of people are subjected to a certain way of life, whether it be by the forces of nature, religion, or geo-political influence, for a Millennia or five. How is it fair for me, with my “pedigree”, to say they are being wronged?

When I first moved to China permanently in 2001 I made a lot of bad decisions. I tended to take the approach of “when in Rome”, but at the same time wanting to jump in and tell “them”, The People, that they deserved so much more. Like I was going to tell them how to revolutionize the country….

For me to do this would be like an Alien Race coming to Earth and telling us that out entire civilazation had been robbed and hoodwinked by manipulist bastards attempting to carry themselves off as Leaders, both political and religious, for the last ten Millennia.

I’d have to guess that I, as an Earthling, would unite a little with my fellow Earthlings, and tell the Alien’s : “If you don’t like it, fucking leave”.

It’s truly a matter of perspective and pride. Two things that we, homo sapiens, possess.

I am not a “CCP Lover” anymore than I am a vegetarian.
But I think you might understand my perspective? On why the Chinese people (middle to upper class) feel the way they do these days? They know, like we all do, that our leaders manipulate us. They know that industry rob’s not only ourselves but the environment, to make money.

Having said that I realize I have meandered.

I know you are busy, and without much free time at all to even rest, much less to post on your blog.

I just wanted to say it was an excellent post, and worth waiting for. Looking forward to more.

May 8, 2007 @ 10:42 pm | Comment

On the one hand there was nothing new in the article; on the other it was well researched and put together indictment of a shabby regime.

How they got the Olympics is still a bit of a mystery. I suppose they promised the Earth and delivered nothing. Let’s hope the protesters, the oppressed, the malcontent, and the foreign media can get together next year.

With the world’s attention focused on Beijing, there is a need to show the good, the bad, and the ugly faces of China. We know the CCP will concentrate on the former. Presenting the true picture is up to the rest of us.

May 8, 2007 @ 11:59 pm | Comment

Richard:
“However, the fact must be considered that the CCP enjoys tremendous popularity with its people.”

The Kim family is also extremely popular in NK even while they eat bugs for sustenence. That is the result of a closed or semi-closed society.

How did Beijing get the Olympics? Bribes, sex and more bribes…with sex. The Olympic selection committee has long known to be a den of thieves. Heck, Salt Lake City greased their wheels a bit, and skating judges are a well known collection of pervs who make personal visits to both male and female skaters before the competition.
Olympic committees are just the UN of sports.

May 9, 2007 @ 12:19 am | Comment

I’m not certain that the CCP *does* enjoy ‘massive popularity with the people.’ It enjoys some popularity with the kind of elites who Westerners – and especially visiting foreigner emissaries and the like – are likely to meet, because they’re doing very well out of the system. The majority of the population seems to treat the government rather like the weather; a matter of some interest, ultimately unaffected by individuals, which can be good or bad, and which you don’t think about most of the time.

A lot of this is, of course, because China is doing well. I think the strength of the system will be tested come the first recession, and I don’t think it will stand up well – which doesn’t necessarily mean disaster, but I think people will start thinking about politics and change more seriously as a result

May 9, 2007 @ 1:56 am | Comment

Richard,

I am no fan of the CCP either, but how about a different perspective — The CCP is not necessarily evil by nature, the current system is the culprit, it creates evil?

The local governments always try to hide the bad news to avoid punishment. It’s takes too long for the news to propagate to the ears of the emperor. When the emperor, who needs to respond to his subjects to maintain power, gets the message, he acts (e.g. SARS and AIDS), but usually it’s too late. Wen Jiabao had said it repeatedly recently that the system needs reform. But how? Of course, by introducing a free press is a good way to start. However, when the majority of the population are not well-educated, their opinions can be easily manipulated and this might create instability. So we need to create a large well-educated middle-class first. And how do we do that? Of course, by improving the economy and education. But then again, isn’t that what the CCP is doing now?

May 9, 2007 @ 3:04 am | Comment

>>To cling blindly to the old shibboleth that that China is evil

I thought the old shibboleth was that the CCP was evil, not “China.”

>>and on the verge of collapse, rotting from the inside out, is to ignore reality.

Unless it collapses — then it will just be “I told you so’s” all around.

>>Or rather, it’s as evil as many other governments,

Which other governments specifically? The USSR? Cuba? The DPRK? Or the US and France and Canada? It makes a big difference to the point you are making.

>>However, the fact must be considered that the CCP enjoys tremendous popularity with its people.

Which people? The ones who work for multi-nationals in Beijing? Sure. The ones studying in the US? Sure. And even if they don’t like the CCP, the odds are 1 out of 20 that they will tell a laowai that they don’t.

I don’t disagree with the spirit of your post, though.

>>with a near-religious conviction, and felt as I wrote it that I was truly in touch with my emotions

Maybe the lesson here is that one shouldn’t ‘think’ with religious-like emotions when it comes to politics. We are all guilty of that from time to time.

May 9, 2007 @ 4:51 am | Comment

Richard,

I don’t know if my endorsement of your post will just confirm in the minds of many that you too have been bought out by the CCP’s United Front… but I can’t help it. I do endorse your post.

I note that in some of the responses that follows your post, there are many that doubt your assertion that the current government is popular amongst the Chinese.

But what is notable about 88 and JamesP’s posts is that neither of them have any extended experiences with urban Chinese that contradict your opinion. They simply disagree; they can’t imagine a world where you’re correct, and thus they’ll point out the possible flaws in your own conclusion. That’s the height of self-important myopia, of course.

I want to correct part of what you said. I think many Chinese (like myself) are very angry about aspects of the CCP’s policies. SARS is one obvious example; I’d add to that restrictions on news gathering and lack of government transparency at all levels. Many believe that the government system is more corrupt today than at any other time in the “New China” era, and that there are signs this pervasive corruption is getting worse.

But you’re absolutely right that in almost all other regards, the Communist Party is respected as having done an excellent job. Governing China is about much, much more than SARS and corruption. It’s about managing economic transition from state-owned enterprises to private enterprise; to managing pensions; to liberalizing labor flow while maintaining social security in the cities; to creating jobs ranging from the unskilled to the technical; to inviting investment; to defending Chinese foreign policy; to managing inflation; to creating buses/trains that run on time… at the end of the day, to allowing the Chinese to improve their standard of living.

There’s a fundamental difference between “foreign” and Chinese perspective on these flaws: many foreigners (at least those from the developed world) see only the flaws of what remains, and ignore the difficult challenges that have been resolved.

I grew up in a home without plumbing, without heated water, without toilet paper. We owned a single 10″ b/w TV, about 2 changes of clothes, and dreamed of the day when we could afford another bicycle. My parents, as university graduates, made approximately $10 (USD) a month. I grew up in a country in which less than 1/3rd of my peers nation-wide were able to finish high school. And we were solidly middle class *urban* citizens, definitely within the elite 15% of the country’s population.

To have gone from that to the China that we live in today, in only 20 years, is an unbelievable accomplishment that hasn’t been duplicated by any other society on this planet. And no, none of it is as easy as liberalizing the economy and “pulling ourselves up by the bootstraps”. If it were that simple, we wouldn’t see the ingrained, systematic poverty that we see today throughout Africa, south Asia, and Latin America.

Let me just make another comparative point… you talk about your displeasure about the legal system in China. Let me point out that the “oldest” practicing lawyers in China have been in practice for about 10-15 years… This applies to judges, as well. Compared that to the West, where there’s a steady continuum of legal expertise ranging from a new attorney to judges that have been on the bench for 30 years.

The Chinese legal system is an absolutely novel creation with a bunch of novices trying to find their way on the basis of foreign legal textbooks. In my opinion, the Chinese legal system doesn’t fundamentally improve for another 2-3 generations of legal professionals (say, 15-30 years).

The same is true everywhere from accounting to journalism; when it comes to social construction and development, there’s simply no substitute for time.

Anyways, to wrap it up. Richard, I applaud the fair and balanced look. I don’t expect you to “love the CCP”; it’s certainly not a party of heroes here to rescue the Chinese people from destruction. Let’s just applaud the CCP when it implements difficult policies, and criticize it when it falters.

(I’m also surprised that your experience only extends back to 2003; I thought you were an older China hand than that. )

May 9, 2007 @ 6:25 am | Comment

>>But what is notable about 88 and JamesP’s posts is that neither of them have any extended experiences with urban Chinese that contradict your opinion. .

Actually, I have plenty of experience with “urban Chinese” who don’t like the CCP — but I try not to rely on anecdotal evidence. I realize that the “urban Chinese” whom I happen to know who don’t like the CCP are probably in the minority among their class.

>>They simply disagree;

What do I disagree with again? Well, blanket statements like “the CCP is popular among the people.” You have to qualify that statement to make it accurate. The CCP is popular in certain demographics. I said as much in my comment.

>>they can’t imagine a world where you’re correct, and thus they’ll point out the possible flaws in your own conclusion.

God knows no one should point out possible flaws in arguments/conclusions. That spells “chaos!” I tells ya.

Maybe you should read what I actually wrote. For example, “I don’t disagree with the spirit of your post…”

Finally,

>>Let’s just applaud the CCP when it implements difficult policies, and criticize it when it falters.

That is what most of us do. Some others defend the CCP no matter what they do and attack anyone as “anti-Chinese” for “criticizing it when it falters.”

May 9, 2007 @ 7:33 am | Comment

88,

It’s factually accurate, but misleading, to say that the current Chinese government is “popular in certain demographics”.

Your post specifically mentioned that employees of “mult-nationals” and “overseas students” are a few very small segments of the population that supports the Chinese government. First of all, “overseas students” are probably more critical of the Chinese government than most other segments of the Chinese population. Many see themselves as inheritors of the intellectual tradition, and are far more demanding of thorough political reform than the average Chinese migrant worker. The fact that you got that wrong makes me wonder just how many urban Chinese you actually know.

Ultimately, your clear implication is that if only some small demographics support the Chinese government, then broader Chinese society does not; if that’s not your implication, I suggest you work on articulating your points more clearly and logically.

I completely disagree with that statement, and I think richard does as well. I firmly believe that the Chinese central government (and the PRC institution) has a high approval rating from Chinese society as a whole. While the Chinese central government is certainly *unpopular* amongst certain demographics (mothers of those killed in past political movements, political activists, people forcibly moved from their lands)… it is popular and has substantial support amongst the vast majority of Chinese.

You claim you don’t want to use anecdotal evidence. Of course not; you said the odds are “1 out of 20” that the Chinese don’t complain to you even if they truly had a grudge. So what does that mean? That your anecdotally observed number of complaints are 1/20th of what you believe they “should” be?

Right.

HKU’s POP surveys statistically reflect that the Chinese central government, despite all of its oppression and democracy denial or whatever other crimes its been accused of, remains “popular” with all Chinese in Hong Kong.

I think its reasonably safe to guess that you wouldn’t accept any surveys from mainland China itself, so I’ll skip that. But “anecdotally”, from my own experience as Chinese in mainland China, and as well as from richard’s experience, as well as numerous English-language first reports from Western expats working in the mainland… it’s safe to say the overall social trends support the claim that the CCP is “popular” in China.

May 9, 2007 @ 8:19 am | Comment

Thanks for all the intelligent comments. Some quick reactions.

I said in my post I don’t know how people in the countryside feel, but I have spoken to many people who have come from the countryside and made it to Beijing and other big cities, and I can safely say these people have a lot of faith in their government. Now, that may well be because they managed to escape and improve their lots. But even the fact that they can do this probably give a lot of others in the countryside greater hope and stands in marked contrast to the totalitarian days of the CCP under Mao. Again, this is anecdotal and unscientific but I’ve seen it enough to believe there is a trend toward increasing confidence in the government.

There will be a recession or inflation or a deflationary depression at some point, and as I’ve always said, that will be the party’s moment of truth. But again, we can’t deny their success in nipping such threats in the bud. A lot of us probably forget in 2004 all the talk about China’s economy overheating, leading to inevitable disaster. Yet the CCP engineered a soft landing and emerged unscathed. Likewise, Roland Chang and others beat the drum loudly about the inevitable collapse of China’s banking system, but the banks have since stabilized. There’s no question an economic crisis will come; these things are cyclical and nothing lasts forever. But based on their past success, I now believe the party can deal with a recession or inflation, etc. They still have enormous cash reserves, and if they have to dig deeper to subsidize things, it will – it’s been done before by other nations.

A major point I was trying to make is that the CCP is often a very bad institution, and as I’ve said countless times on this blog, its inability to rein in the local governments is a testament to its weakness, at least on the domestic front. But even here there have been obvious improvements. As far as freedom of speech goes, the CCP gets failing marks and I will always criticize them for it. But again, while many here find this to be an outrage, most take it in stride and don’t see it as a major problem. That doesn’t make it good, but it puts things in perspective: the people here are willing to sacrifice some of those rights we Westerners deem sacred, and they look on in bemused bewilderment when we go crazy damning their government for it. And I’ll still damn them for it, because arresting people and jailing them for decades for writing about democracy on some obscure web site is repulsive to me, an act of cowardice and evil. But this is nothing new to China, and for better or worse, most people here simply don’t care, or at least don’t care enough to put themselves at risk to try to do anything about it.

One of my competing PR firms back in December did a huge survey of Chinese throughout the country, and found across the board that the people put higher faith and trust in the government than any other body (like the media). They believe, wisely or not, that the government can achieve just about anything it sets its mind to. This might offend us, but we can’t deny it – the Chinese people are more pro-CCP than anti. And sadly, due to the CCP’s successful strangulation of any competition, the CCP is all they’ll have for a long time to come. Most seem to be thankful that the party is doing so well and that life in general is improving. A lot of people remain oppressed, and the horror stories continue. But so do the success stories. As I said, you can see daily horror stories about government in the US, too. But our faith in our system remains. It’s that way here, too, no matter how much some of us want to believe otherwise.

May 9, 2007 @ 9:27 am | Comment

“HKU’s POP surveys statistically reflect that the Chinese central government, despite all of its oppression and democracy denial or whatever other crimes its been accused of, remains “popular” with all Chinese in Hong Kong.”

Could you provide a specific citation/link to that information, please?

May 9, 2007 @ 9:28 am | Comment

Canrun, check this survey, which concludes, “In China, business is trusted by 67% of respondents but trails government, which is trusted by 78%.”

Yes, this disappoints me, too. But if we want to have a meaningful discussion about China we can’t ignore facts. This is a survey of middle class Chinese, so it may be skewered. But my friends from the backwaters – and I’ve made quite a few of them – tell me the results wouldn’t be that different out in the countryside. Unscientific, I know. Make of it what you will.

May 9, 2007 @ 9:44 am | Comment

>>if that’s not your implication, I suggest you work on articulating your points more clearly and logically.

You mean because you misinterpret or misrepresent what I write, I should work on my logic? How does that work?

>>Ultimately, your clear implication is that if only some small demographics support the Chinese government, then broader Chinese society does not;

Do you know the difference between an inference and an implication? You can infer whatever you want. What I implied — and stated — is that the CCP is more popular among groups that foriegners usually come in contact with: the professional class and the highly educated. Logically speaking, that has nothing to do whatever with what any other groups may or may not think of the CCP.

What I objected to was the notion that the CCP is “popular” among the vast majority of the population. “Popular” is not the same as “supports it because there is no alternative” or “puts up with it because there is no other option for China now.” “Popular” usually implies affection or that people like something. If you want to say that the vast majority of the population tolerates the CCP and doesn’t want to abolish it right now, I would agree. But that isn’t the same as “popular.”

>>Many see themselves as inheritors of the intellectual tradition, and are far more demanding of thorough political reform than the average Chinese migrant worker.

And those are some of the “urban Chinese” I know who hate the CCP. Thanks for making my point. On the whole, however, overseas Chinese students do not hate the CCP. If you think that the vast majority of them do, then I question your…age. You must be 40 or so. Or you must think that it is 1994 and not 2007.

>>you said the odds are “1 out of 20” that the Chinese don’t complain to you even if they truly had a grudge. So what does that mean?

It means most Chinese do not like to complain about the Chinese government in front of foreigners. Is that a revelation? I don’t think that is a controversial proposition — at all. My larger point was that you can’t necessarily take things at face value.

>>But “anecdotally”, from my own experience as Chinese in mainland China, blah, blah, blah…

We can trade anecdotes all day long. Like the time three different cab drivers in one week told me that the CCP should be bombed off the face of the earth. I’m not sure what that proves. And we know that you would claim it proves nothing — unless the three cab drivers started weeping for joy at the mention of the CCP, then it would prove your point, of course.

May 9, 2007 @ 10:28 am | Comment

@richard,

>> the Chinese people are more pro-CCP than anti

true.

>>As I said, you can see daily horror stories about government in the US, too. But our faith in our system remains. It’s that way here, too, no matter how much some of us want to believe otherwise.

false.

I would go back to my previous point: it would be more accurate to say that most Chinese tolerate the CCP, and probably will as long as economic growth contiunes. What I wouldn’t say is that most Chinese have “faith in the system” in any comprable way to Americans having faith in the American system. Americans are more ideological and idealistic on this score than Chinese — by a long shot.

I’d put it this way: most Chinese have faith that the CCP knows that the current system is fucked and will reform it — eventually. And, no, not reform it into a “democracy,” but into something other than a corrupt kleptocracy.

Or, better still, you could say that most Chinese don’t have faith in anything related to politics and just want to get rich. As long as the CCP facilitates that, they could give a rat’s ass what it does or doesn’t do. That is probably how most people are in any country, only more so in China right now due to recent history.

All of this is far from “the CCP is popular” or “Chinese have faith in the system.”

Anyway, my 2 cents…

May 9, 2007 @ 11:01 am | Comment

CCT

“. First of all, “overseas students” are probably more critical of the Chinese government than most other segments of the Chinese population”

Without layer upon layer of web filtering, they can get both sides and make their own judgements. Most overseas Chinese are angry about the lies they have been fed and also wondered what the heck happened since the Tang dynasty.

As for your belief in the popularity of the CCP, a poll in China would be useless, a poll outside of China would make you feel sad.

“HKU’s POP surveys statistically reflect that the Chinese central government, despite all of its oppression and democracy denial or whatever other crimes its been accused of, remains “popular” with all Chinese in Hong Kong.”

And at the same time HK has record numbers of native born HK people holding HK and Canadian passports thanks to some loopholes in Canadian law. If the chinese gov’t is so popular, why would so many HK people want foreign passports? If the chinese gov’t is so popular, why are its top movie international movie stars dating and marrying foreigners and buying foreign property to secure foreign passports?

As for your comments on China’s legal system. China has had a legal system for over 3000 years. The problem is lack of court independence and enforcing the rights of the accused. China makes excuses, but the US had a very rudimentary court system and just used the UK’s system. Over time the US, as well as Australia, Canada, NZ and India made their own adjustments but the underlying structure is still UK and it works pretty well.

The CCP is just obsessed with adding “chinese characteristics” to everything, regardless of the results.

May 9, 2007 @ 11:45 am | Comment

Did we all forget about brainwashing?

The people are pro CCP are they? Well do you think that the CCP squanders the countries resources to fuel its gigantic lying machine just for fun?

Heck no, they do it to create the bubble world that the Chinese people live inside and that other countries are also being sucked into according to their plan.

Is bubble world created by the evil CCP a myth? Heck no it isnt.

The CCP is EXTREMELY paranoid right? Right it is and do you think thats for no reason? No way!!

The reason the CCP hates truth and does all it can to fuck with peoples minds is because the TRUTH IS THAT THE CCP IS INDEED EVIL.

I don’t care how many people in China have been brainwashed by lies, those lies will never be true and the people under such brainwashing cannot be counted as having legitimate opinions.

May 9, 2007 @ 1:46 pm | Comment

As I walk down the street I see posters for an exhibit of plastified dead corpses…

I am pretty sure that those corpses are of Falun Gong practitioners.

This to me is the symbol of peoples delusion about China.

People are buying healthy organs from people who are tortured to death for their beliefs.

What is evil? The CCP is evil. A lot of people cannot conceive of what evil means. They havnt seen it so its not in their understanding.

What about torture? What about systematic deception of the world? Who is capable of this atrocity? CCP followers, unfortunately. Those people who are “the majority” in China who support the CCP. where would they stop and say no? How far would they go in following the CCP into hell?

Here are some videos, They are evidence of evil and they can remind you that Falun Gong practitioners are to be considered as suicides when murdered by police, orders from the top and all throughout, and the people just go along with it.

These videos are not of Falun Gong they are of regular people.

If you dont find them disturbing, you are probly a CCP member and should go on a spiritual retreat and beg the forces that be to forgive you.

I’ll post the video links in the next block

May 9, 2007 @ 1:56 pm | Comment

Heres from http://lairdkeir.spaces.live.com/

I’m sure the CCP is so happy that it has extracted human dignity out of the people so effectively …….The cultural revolution was no accident and And the Falun Gong persecution is more terrifying than we can comprehend.

http://viewer.youku.com/v1.0.0074/qplayer.swf?VideoIDS=XMzcyMzg4NA==
http://player.youku.com/player.php/sid/XMTk3MzY0/v.swf
http://v.blog.sina.com.cn/swf/player.swf?vid=1038244&uid=1147324535
http://player.youku.com/player.php/sid/XMTY3MzYyNA==/v.swf

The appearance of video-capable mobile phones and the proliferation of hundreds of YouTube-clones in China do not address the issue of what types of video content. You just have to wait and watch.

It is said that sending video clips of violent acts by mobile phone is now “fashionable” in schools. At the Guangzhou Student Net, eleven such video clips, including six involving female students. An informal survey of 33 middle-school students showed that 61% have come across these violent videos through websites or mobile phone clips.

One student said: “I received a mobile phone clip titled ‘Super Exciting Violent.’ I was very excited. But after I watched the content, my first reaction was terror. I forwarded this another classmate.” That classmate said that she remained calm after viewing that clip. “I hve seen this type of video before. They were even more violent … there was a time when everybody seemed especially interested in this sort of thing. Someone was always directing me to websites with these violent clips.” Both students were concerned that it could happen to them too. “I’ll take these videos as educational material and devise ways of protecting myself.”

May 9, 2007 @ 2:26 pm | Comment

Thanks for the link, Richard. By the way, somebody from the Manhattan Institute, publisher of the City Journal–or else someone belonging to the miniscule subset of people who a) read my blog b) like the Manhattan Institute and c) carry in their back pocket misleading rebuttals to criticisms of the Institute–posted a comment. Much hilarity ensued. Also appreciate your thoughtful comments on the overall issue. It’s something I’m wrestling with.

May 9, 2007 @ 2:46 pm | Comment

whats happening? I keep trying to post those videos and it wont work… hmmm

INSANITY IN CHINESE SCHOOLS
http://viewer.youku.com/v1.0.0074/qplayer.swf?VideoIDS=XMzcyMzg4NA==
http://player.youku.com/player.php/sid/XMTk3MzY0/v.swf
http://v.blog.sina.com.cn/swf/player.swf?vid=1038244&uid=1147324535
http://player.youku.com/player.php/sid/XMTY3MzYyNA==/v.swf

The appearance of video-capable mobile phones and the proliferation of
hundreds of YouTube-clones in China do not address the issue of what
types of video content. You just have to wait and watch.

It is said that sending video clips of violent acts by mobile phone is
now “fashionable” in schools. At the Guangzhou Student Net, eleven such
video clips, including six involving female students. An informal
survey of 33 middle-school students showed that 61% have come across
these violent videos through websites or mobile phone clips.

One student said: “I received a mobile phone clip titled ‘Super Exciting
Violent.’ I was very excited. But after I watched the content, my
first reaction was terror. I forwarded this another classmate.” That
classmate said that she remained calm after viewing that clip. “I hve
seen this type of video before. They were even more violent … there
was a time when everybody seemed especially interested in this sort of
thing. Someone was always directing me to websites with these violent
clips.” Both students were concerned that it could happen to them too.
“I’ll take these videos as educational material and devise ways of
protecting myself.”

May 9, 2007 @ 3:01 pm | Comment

whats happening? I keep trying to post those videos and it wont work… hmmm

so I’ll try just refering you to the blog where they are linked..

http://lairdkeir.spaces.live.com/

insanity in Chinese schools and street fighting…

May 9, 2007 @ 3:02 pm | Comment

nanheyangrouchuan
And at the same time HK has record numbers of native born HK people holding HK and Canadian passports thanks to some loopholes in Canadian law. If the chinese gov’t is so popular, why would so many HK people want foreign passports? If the chinese gov’t is so popular, why are its top movie international movie stars dating and marrying foreigners and buying foreign property to secure foreign passports?

Moving/Emmigrating to a different country doesnt necessarily result from the resentment against CCP. Canada has better social welfare system, better medicare, better environment, etc. These are the primary reasons why there are some many Chinese in Canada. If you ask CCT, he is prolly already a US citizen or Green Card holder. Does he hate CCP? porlly no. Does he love USA? prolly no.
I have a friend(chinese) that is hardcore anti-us, pro-ccp, and he lives comfortablly here in the united states

May 9, 2007 @ 3:13 pm | Comment

Heres an exerpt from a super good article about how Chinas middel class are just being bribed by the CCP. The CCP uses them to look good and the middle class uses the CCP to get stuff. This is classic, the CCP has no legitimacy, it just spends the peoples money on bribery to cover its but and make it have the appearance of legitimacy.

“””””””””Still, hasn’t growth created an independent middle class that will push for, and eventually obtain, greater political freedom? Many in the West think so, looking to the South Korean example, but Mao Yushi isn’t convinced. What exists in China, he argues, is a class of “parvenus,” newcomers whose purchasing power depends on their proximity to the Party rather than their education or entrepreneurial achievements. Except for a handful of genuine businessmen, the parvenus work in the military, public administration, or state enterprises, or for firms ostensibly private but, in fact, owned by the Party. The Party picks up the tab for almost all their imported luxury cars, two-thirds of their mobile phones, and three-quarters of their restaurant bills, as well as their call girls, their “study” trips abroad, and their lavish spending at Las Vegas casinos. And it can withdraw these advantages at any time.””””””””””

Read this article, The Empire of Lies

http://www.city-journal.org/html/17_2_china.html

May 9, 2007 @ 10:51 pm | Comment

Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. Governments tend toward evil unless restrained. I see the CCP becoming more restrained as its need for approval increases.

May 9, 2007 @ 11:51 pm | Comment

Well said, as always, CLB.

May 10, 2007 @ 12:07 am | Comment

Richard, I hope you can be more objective in your posts, such as this one.

But of course, there will always be posters who will slander China non-stop. This is simply their life. In this world, the three biggest careers are drug dealers, porno makers, and anti-China personnel. These three will always exist as long as humans exist. In this blog, I observed three biggest anti-China pioneers: they are:

snow (FLG member, no need to say more)

nanheyangrouchuan (his hobby is attacking China, perhaps a loser living in China)

stuart (another loser teaching English in China, but hates everything about China and even his students).

May 10, 2007 @ 10:44 am | Comment

Thanks, Red Star! We all know how objective you are, and if anyone has earned the right to criticize others for lack of objectivity, it’s you! Now tell us again why you tried to slander Sun Zhigang, who was beaten to death in Guangzhou in one of the nation’s most repulsive scandals? Yes, when we want fair and balanced, we all turn to Red Star.

May 10, 2007 @ 12:00 pm | Comment

China is the source of numerous contradictions. Just an example, recently IMD’s World Competitiveness Scoreboard ranked China at the 15th, up from the 19th of last year. However, WEF’s Global Competitiveness Report ranked China at the 54th, a 6 positions slip from the previous year.

May 10, 2007 @ 12:33 pm | Comment

Whew, I’m not sure what to say. Ok… I have, in the past, had similar opinions. I mean, I’ve had plenty of people tell me that they support the Party… especially when I first started being able to understand Chinese well enough to really know what people were saying… but when you really think about it, even if they have a positive view of the Party, that doesn’t mean I have to. How much money is spent every year on creating an all-encompassing propaganda system no longer designed to necessarily make people regurtitate political slogans but still determined to distort worldviews with economic figures and discussions of the “uniqueness” of China.
I found it interesting that you mentioned that the majority of people you have talked to were urban dwellers. From my own experience, I think that the most vocal critics of Party rule are mostly in the rural areas. After all, they’re the ones getting fucked by the reform process and endemic corruption. If you ask the guy in the cubicle next to you, of course he’s going to say he supports the Party, because he is riding on top of a wave of economic development. You see, the Chinese Communist Party is now the Chinese Feudal Aristocracy Party: protecting its own and to hell with the rest.
Of course, every Party in the world, at least to a certain degree (some more than others) represents a certain part of the populace and protects their interests to the detriment of others. BUT! But… when this is done by use of force (power comes out of the barrel of a gun) in an environment of mass deception, it becomes a problem and is simply not morally acceptable.
I used to know a guy from North Korea who studied in the US whose father was some relatively high-ranking person in their heirarchy. No matter what anyone said, he insisted that North Korea had a great form of government and was not caught in a form of tyranny by terror. Go figure!
He was also a pretty funny guy, and conversations with him were much more enjoyable than the average Chinese politics discussion: “you don’t understand China.” I think that, in the end, when someone trapped in a web of propagandistic muck tells you that you do understand China, becaue you agree with what they think or at least think that they think, then you’re in trouble.

May 10, 2007 @ 1:26 pm | Comment

The fact many people in china support CCP doesnt mean that they are satisfired with their current conditions. For the last 30 years, CCP have made many promises and largely made them come true. This has created a unique phenomenon that many chinese are living on their hopes. They feel that their life can get better and better under ccp’rule although their current living conditions are rather miserable.

May 10, 2007 @ 3:25 pm | Comment

If one is open-minded and is willing to look at the facts, it is not hard to understand why the Chinese government has fairly amount of support from significant portion of the population. Otherwise, one can always looks the other way, ignore the facts, ignore the opinions of most Chinese people and has this or that kind of “explanation”.

Many leaders, particularly at the top level, are very capable people and deliver to people what they care most in their daily life. And then you compare the job performance of leaders in some advanced nations.

May 10, 2007 @ 3:53 pm | Comment

Yeah, the CCP really “enjoys tremendous popularity with its people” (does that mean the people of China or do they belong to the party now?). Their popularity is so tremendous that so-called “incidents”, in other words violent clashes between outraged people and the police only happen a few thousand times a year. The CCP is especially popular with wealthy and educated upper middle class people. They love the CCP and its policies so much that they grasp the first opportunity to move to other countries like the evil US of A in order to stay there for the rest of their lives and express their ardent patriotism and their great love for their motherland on blogsites on the internet. The CCP actually is so popular that many of my Chinese friends call them “criminals” (to quote only the most polite and civilized term they use).
Still, I have to agree with Richard. During my years in China got the impression that a lot of Chinese people, if not the majority, have faith in the CCP, no matter if they come from big cities or the countryside. Then again, these are the same people who say that Mao Zedong was 70% right and only 30% wrong, the same people who call Adolf Hitler a great man and Slobodan Milosevic a hero, the same people who believe that drinking cold water is more harmful to your health than chain-smoking and the same people who seriously think that, if some idiot driving his vehicle on the sidewalk almost kills me, I am the one who has to apologize for getting into his way.
China certainly has improved in many ways and it is a great place to live.*
*AS LONG AS
you don’t care about fresh air.
you don’t get sick.
you don’t care about silly trifles like your rights as a citizen.
you don’t insist on foolish demands like the government respecting the constitution.
you don’t mind scratching the corpse of your dead child off the asphalt and apologizing to the killer for spoiling his new SUV.
you always follow the HIDDEN RULES.

May 10, 2007 @ 6:46 pm | Comment

“Many leaders, particularly at the top level, are very capable people and deliver to people what they care most in their daily life. And then you compare the job performance of leaders in some advanced nations.”

Are you implying that China is NOT an advanced nation? And that after 5000 years of history!

May 10, 2007 @ 7:01 pm | Comment

mor, I said the CCP still sucks in many ways. I complain about them every day. But I have to acknowledge what I see, and not what I want to see. The noise about all the “incidents” is inaccurate. Many of the incidents are local protests about things that have nothing to do with the government. I really wanted to believe in that huge number of terrible incidents in order to validate my own beliefs, but I had to look at it objectively. It’s very comforting to blame the party for everything. It makes us feel safe and snug and warm. And the party is certainly to blame for lots. And it’s done a lot of people a lot of good, and if you don’t want to see that it’s your choice. But seriously, there’s no way a person can look at China 30 years ago and China today and not give the party some credit. Their sins are many and deep (unfortunately, those of my own current government aren’t much better), but the people here really are grateful for them, as much as we don’t want to accept that. I can list 1,000 horror stories about America, about poor working mothers nearly starving, about people having to sell everything they own to buy medication because they can’t get insurance, stories of innocent people rotting in US prisons – and yet I still say I appreciate America and its government (or at least pre-Bush and hopefully post-Bush). There’s always something to hate about America, yet the country’s progress from the days of killing the Indians and keeping slaves to today has been truly impressive, and only an idiot would deny that. And no one can deny that despite all the horror stories the lives of most Chinese people today are better. Even though someone was killed by an SUV, etc. Most Americans’ lives were made better, too, though there were always the horror stories, the racism, the murders…. Perspective. That’s all I’m trying to arrive at.

May 10, 2007 @ 7:32 pm | Comment

Richard,
Thanks for you candid and thoughtful post. You have begun to recognize conflicts in between what you see and sense with what you had previously believed, and you are reconciling your beliefs. It’s a natural part of our never-ending quest in life to understand the truth, however subjective it may be. China is a very good subject to test and appreciate the limits of our cognitive capacities. It’s like an enormous elephant; we are like the blind men grasping and touching at the various parts of it and trying to make sense of this leviathan of a civilization. The Western mainstream media will highlight spots here and there, but the picture we get is not exactly hi-def. images in 3-D. Moreover, this elephant is constantly changing and moving as is our point of reference.

How differently might we regard China and the Chinese regard their own political system, had for example, the United States not invaded Iraq but peacefully induced Saudi Arabia and Kuwait to become more liberal participatory governments? Or if the Washington Consensus had turned Latin American countries into thriving, prosperous economies? Think of how things might seem from where you are if the Taiwan’s DPP government, after achieving power through the democratic process, managed to accomplish some of their original policy goals like comprehensive social welfare for all Taiwanese and renewable energy for the island, instead of resorting to relentless mass mobilization campaigns fixated on reshaping national identity to beat the nationalists in their political competition?

Quite a bit of the debating here seems to be an implicit discussion over what is good and bad. Yet, remarkably, I think you and the CCP, and the Chinese over whom they rule, and many of the other commenters here and the Western media and governments, would have much to agree on as to what are the good ends – higher standard of living, cleaner environment, a more predictable market with less commercial fraud, fewer pandemics, less arbitrariness in governance though rule of law etc. The difference though is a question of means. In the liberal West, we think the people ought to have input. The CCP rules by its brand of paternalism – it knows what’s good for its people. And, from what you report about the sentiments of the Chinese you’ve encountered, they seem to acknowledge this. The current CCP leadership, as with its predecessors, takes its paternal role pretty seriously. For the most part, the CCP is aware of most of the problems in China that the West reports. In fact, many of the problems were identified in the Chinese press with government approval. The CCP just takes a different approach to dealing with those problems. It’s their way versus the way we think they ought to take (note, what we prescribe to others often ain’t the way we’d take or took ourselves). I don’t pretend to know enough to offer predictions. It’s worth paying attention and reassessing, from time to time, what we believe.

May 11, 2007 @ 5:08 am | Comment

continental:

You write as much meaningless volume as any good Xinhua propagandist I have ever read. How much time did you waste actually conceiving and writing that drivel?

May 11, 2007 @ 7:46 am | Comment

Kebab boy, what do you see as drivel? Serious question. If you want to criticize be specific. I thought it was a fair comment, though if you have an argument against it I’d be willing to listen. Thanks.

May 11, 2007 @ 12:44 pm | Comment

“Richard,
Thanks for you candid and thoughtful post. You have begun to recognize conflicts in between what you see and sense with what you had previously believed”

Trying to divide and conquer your system of beliefs. “you no longer know what you knew and knew what you did not know and I know what you used to know and no longer know, etc”.

“China is a very good subject to test and appreciate the limits of our cognitive capacities. It’s like an enormous elephant; we are like the blind men grasping and touching at the various parts of it and trying to make sense of this leviathan of a civilization.”

This is where the CCP and its fans prop up China as something beyond a country and culture, that is unprecedented in ancient and recent times. As if China is seperate and possibly above the rest of humanity. The CCP has tried to provide tangibility to this concept by concocting “beijing man”. If China is seperate and possibly above humanity, then the same standards of humanity such as democracy, equality and law do not apply in China as they apply elsewhere. Equate this concept with what you know about the “center of the universe” and “guardians of heaven” concepts of China.

“How differently might we regard China and the Chinese regard their own political system, had for example, the United States not invaded Iraq but peacefully induced Saudi Arabia and Kuwait to become more liberal participatory governments? Or if the Washington Consensus had turned Latin American countries into thriving, prosperous economies?”

A massive disconnect of events to do nothing more than add bulk to the text.

“Think of how things might seem from where you are if the Taiwan’s DPP government, after achieving power through the democratic process, managed to accomplish some of their original policy goals like comprehensive social welfare for all Taiwanese and renewable energy for the island, instead of resorting to relentless mass mobilization campaigns fixated on reshaping national identity to beat the nationalists in their political competition?”

Now the writer tries to transition from China’s domestic politics to a selection of US foreign policy actions to evident disdain for what the Taiwanese have done with their island while China has not achieved a fraction of their success.

“Quite a bit of the debating here seems to be an implicit discussion over what is good and bad”

This is a classic CCP line, that is there no absolute good and bad, only perceptions of good and bad. Without going into semantics, many of the laws on China’s books (excluding civil rights laws) disprove CCP theory and hold alot of similarity with the rest of the world.

May 11, 2007 @ 4:06 pm | Comment

Part II

“I think you and the CCP, and the Chinese over whom they rule, and many of the other commenters here and the Western media and governments, would have much to agree on as to what are the good ends – higher standard of living, cleaner environment, a more predictable market with less commercial fraud, fewer pandemics, less arbitrariness in governance though rule of law etc.”

Now the attempt is to unite us under common goals that are supposedly outside of the political realm and suggest the CCP is trying to do the same for China and the world, just in a different way. Though China has failed miseably to provide any of the above mentioned services for even 1/4 of its people.

May 11, 2007 @ 4:11 pm | Comment

“The difference though is a question of means. In the liberal West, we think the people ought to have input. The CCP rules by its brand of paternalism – it knows what’s good for its people. And, from what you report about the sentiments of the Chinese you’ve encountered, they seem to acknowledge this. The current CCP leadership, as with its predecessors, takes its paternal role pretty seriously.”

See what I mean, same goal, different methods. And taking on the term “parental” for the way the CCP treats its people. The CCP does see itself as the parental figure of all Chinese people like an abusive parent sees the children more as property than people that have needs. And since China is seperate and possibly above the rest of humanity, only the Chinese gov’t can really know what the chinese people need.

“For the most part, the CCP is aware of most of the problems in China that the West reports. In fact, many of the problems were identified in the Chinese press with government approval. The CCP just takes a different approach to dealing with those problems. It’s their way versus the way we think they ought to take (note, what we prescribe to others often ain’t the way we’d take or took ourselves). I don’t pretend to know enough to offer predictions. It’s worth paying attention and reassessing, from time to time, what we believe.”

Again with the “same goal, different approach” softstep. In reality we know China has yet to deal with any of its problems because the biggest problem and obstacle to fixing alot of China’s problems is the CCP itself.

May 11, 2007 @ 4:19 pm | Comment

@richard

“mor, I said the CCP still sucks in many ways.”

It certainly does.

“I complain about them every day.”

You are complaining even more often than I am.

“But I have to acknowledge what I see, and not what I want to see.”

I agree. What I want to see is a Chinese government that stands up to its word, that makes sure that people breathe clean air and have access to clean water, a government that makes sure that people who are wronged or hurt by others have the possibility to defend themselves and their loved ones. Unfortunately, I cannot see that in China.

“The noise about all the “incidents” is inaccurate.”

You might be right that the coverage of those “incidents” was blown out of proportion by the media. They DO happen, though. One of them even happened in a big city, very close to the neighborhood where I used to live.

“Many of the incidents are local protests about things that have nothing to do with the government.”

If they have nothing to do with the government, what do they have to do with, then? Are the people protesting because of the bad weather?

“I really wanted to believe in that huge number of terrible incidents in order to validate my own beliefs, but I had to look at it objectively.”

I never wanted to believe in the huge number of incidents, because I always hoped that China could be a place for me and my family to live in, a place with a future.

“It’s very comforting to blame the party for everything.”

It’s not comforting at all considering that this party is most likely going to rule China at least for the next few decades.

“It makes us feel safe and snug and warm.”

How so? I don’t really get your point.

“And the party is certainly to blame for lots.”

Especially considering that this party has been governing China since 1949 and not just since 1980.

“And it’s done a lot of people a lot of good, and if you don’t want to see that it’s your choice.”

It’s not about what I want to see, but what I DO see.

“But seriously, there’s no way a person can look at China 30 years ago and China today and not give the party some credit.”

Once and for all: I DO know that China today is worlds apart from China 30 years ago and that Deng Xiaoping and his successors were and are much better than Mao Zedong and his running dogs. I also know that many people in China are old enough to remember that time and to be grateful for everything that changed since then. A big part of the Chinese population, however, is too young to remember those times and doesn’t appreciate the CCP’s achievements since then that much. Among those who are old enough, a somewhat awkward kind of “Mao nostalgia” has become fashionable in recent years, a little bit like the Communist nostalgia among certain people from East Germany: “Back then, not all things were bad.”

“Their sins are many and deep (unfortunately, those of my own current government aren’t much better), but the people here really are grateful for them, as much as we don’t want to accept that.”

Are you interested in the opinion of an average Chinese person, one of those Chinese people who can’t speak English? Recently, I asked such a person, if she thinks that “the CCP enjoys tremendous popularity with its people”. Her answer: “Rubbish!” (She used the word “goupi” in Chinese.)

“I can list 1,000 horror stories about America, about poor working mothers nearly starving, about people having to sell everything they own to buy medication because they can’t get insurance, stories of innocent people rotting in US prisons – and yet I still say I appreciate America and its government (or at least pre-Bush and hopefully post-Bush).”

Which means that right now you don’t appreciate the US government and neither do I.

“There’s always something to hate about America, yet the country’s progress from the days of killing the Indians and keeping slaves to today has been truly impressive, and only an idiot would deny that.”

I’m certainly not denying that.

“And no one can deny that despite all the horror stories the lives of most Chinese people today are better.”

As long as they don’t get sick, as long as they don’t live next to a polluted river, as long as they don’t get driven from their homes, as long as they don’t happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time and disappear into some laogai camp for being in somebody’s way.

“Even though someone was killed by an SUV, etc.”

The point is not that “someone was killed by an SUV”, that happens everywhere, the point is that the Chinese government does virtually nothing to protect people against crazy car drivers. You’ve been in China long enough to have noticed that a lot of Chinese drivers are madmen and even get upset if you point out their mistakes to them. Why is that? The reason is NOT that Chinese people are idiots. The reason is NOT that some sort of genetic or cultural disposition tells Chinese people to ignore traffic rules. The reason is that the authorities in China can’t be bothered to enforce traffic rules (which are basically the same as in other countries, I checked it). Which brings me back to the age-old argument of “the CCP is not responsible for all bad things in China”. Who is running the country? Who is in control of not only the media, but virtually every institution in China? Who has the power to change things, if they only want to?

“Most Americans’ lives were made better, too, though there were always the horror stories, the racism, the murders….”

I have to admit, there is one thing which is much better in China than it is in the USA. It is damn hard to get a gun, therefore I don’t have to be afraid of being shot while I’m going shopping.

“Perspective. That’s all I’m trying to arrive at.”

All right, let’s get some perspective then. We are talking about a government that calls itself socialist but allows employers to exploit their workers in a way that puts Manchester capitalism to shame, a government that puts people into prison for no reason and doesn’t even respect its own constitution, a government that claims to work for the greater good of the people and keeps poisoning the environment those people live in, a government that keeps talking about peace and a harmonious society, but at the same time whips up national hatred in a way that reminds me of the Third Reich. This same government is going to host the Olympic Games next year, and as usual, we laowai will stand by and applaud, because that’s what the CCP likes.

May 12, 2007 @ 9:05 am | Comment

“China is a very good subject to test and appreciate the limits of our cognitive capacities. It’s like an enormous elephant; we are like the blind men grasping and touching at the various parts of it and trying to make sense of this leviathan of a civilization.”

Which parts of the elephant exactly are you grasping and touching? You just almost made me spill my wine over the computer. You don’t want to know what picture of you I have in my head now.

May 12, 2007 @ 9:15 am | Comment

It’s pretty clear what the problem is with the “elephant”, the CCP is slowly improving but they’re simply not doing things efficiently enough.

May 12, 2007 @ 2:00 pm | Comment

Efficiency? Their pretty efficient at squashing dissenting voices and killing people who belong to groups they don’t like. What kind of efficiency are you hoping for?

We are grasping and touching a Chinese elephant with alot of open sores.

May 13, 2007 @ 12:47 am | Comment

Nanheyangchuan (South River Goat Meat Kabab?)

You know as well I do that the CCP has run China according to its own prerogatives, whatever those might be at a given time (say 1949, 58, 78, 89, or 2007). The current reality might not be to your liking, but there ain�t a whole lot you can do about it beyond venting your frustrations here. Your appeal, directed to those living under CCP, implies that there�s a much better way to govern China. I don�t want to put words in your mouth but I think it�s safe to assume that you�d prefer a Western, liberal, capitalist democracy. You (and those who advocate �your� position (if I can call it that) and there are plenty here in the United States) bear a burden to persuade the Chinese people that your way is in fact what they ought/want/should/need to have. And since you can�t take over China for a trial run to prove it to the Chinese, you have to convince them by some allusion to another reference point. And that�s why those examples I cited in my original post are entirely pertinent to this discussion.

Despite press censorship, people in China have a limited understanding of what�s been happening in the rest of the world. They know enough to appreciate how good life is in the West is, but more importantly, how far places South Korea, Singapore and Taiwan have come along. (Not to categorically defend Xinhua, but whether it does or does not report a given story is a often good gauge of how the CCP feels about that event. In recent years, I think Xinhua�s been reporting more, particularly if it�s non-China related). The CCP is a product of the French Revolution (excesses and all) so, unlike Saudi Arabia or Bhutan, it does pays rhetorical homage to �democracy, equality and the rule of law.� You�ve got make sure your way can deliver on those promises. The Chinese see what�s happened with Russia, Latin America, the colored revolutions, and most especially, in Iraq. They also have a pretty good sense of what to expect from their own government, which under Deng Xiaoping�s implicitly renegotiated social contract, is out to ensure order (aka �harmony�) and progress (mostly in material terms) under the aegis of its monopoly over political affairs. And as Richard noted in his original post, some Chinese he�s encountered readily appreciate what they�ve gotten under the CCP in the last decade. So you will have to to deliver what you promise on top of what the Chinese has been getting under the CCP to make it a good sell (unless your plan is some kind of hostile regime change). The bar of acceptance been raised since 1989. The trackrecord of the program you are advocating hasn�t been as sterling lately, and the Chinese know it and I just pointed that out.

I recognize how Richard is coming to terms of with what he�s experiencing and trying to move the discussion beyond manichean terms � i.e. the CCP is just plain bad bad bad. The elephant metaphor I used — that things are not what they seem is � wasn�t meant to describe only China or suggest that the reality of China is beyond our comprehension. It can apply to a lot examples big and small. Exhibit 1: How did the democratically-elected U.S. political establishment, informed by the best-funded intelligence unit in the world and one of the most robust �wall-to-wall, free press,� rush headlong into the Iraq war? Exhibit 2, on a far less consequential scale, how much did the Duke University administration misjudge the rape case against their lacross team? In both cases, you�ve got to reevaluate what went wrong. Why were their pictures of the elephant so far off the mark? It would be an understatement to say that CCP�s has been off its own mark quite a bit in its history. It�s gotten to where it is today by quietly reassessing and changing course in its own way, usually without admitting, publicly at least, much blame. But perhaps due to its own past lessons, the CCP has also learned to avoid putting the ideology cart before the horse. Instead, it sets the agenda incrementally, and moves empirically by inquiring and testing and experimenting and then looking back to to see what worked to accommplish its goals.

Incidentally, examining how the CCP operates can help draw out some important reflections on how our own system works. Consider for example, your emphasis on the �democracy, equality and the rule of law,� common catchwords in the vocabulary of U.S. leaders speaking about China and many other parts of the world. Despite all the talk about freedom and human rights why do matters of money (trade, currency exchange rate) keep taking precedent in the actual course of government dealings between the U.S. and China? What does it tell us about the balance between democracy (one man one vote) and capitalism (one share one vote) in America? What does it say about the material basis and needs of our own democracy? For instance, why is the CCP trying to rein in its economy from growing too fast with cumbersome measures like banning bank lending or dousing cold water on the stock market? Why don�t they just trust the market like the American politicians say and let their consumers grow fat off an equity and lending boom. It�s the economy stupid right? After borrowing $3 trillion off their homes in the last six years (quite a bit of which was financed by China�s CCP-led state banks on low interest rates), U.S. consumers drew down their savings to the lowest rates since 1933, and the Dow still set a record high. What�s going on here? Something seems to be up, but the U.S. political leadership doesn�t seem to be paying much attention. So laissez-faire.

Now on to Taiwan. By its success, I assume you mean both Taiwan�s economic growth and transition to democracy. Indeed the former was probably a big stimulant for the CCP to adjust their course. �Hey we beat those nationalists in the civil war but they ended up wealthier than we are?!?!� The CCP understands, as all Marxists are taught, that capital needs to grow, and Taiwan�s economy could not remain at a standstill. By appealing to Taiwan�s commercial interests, the CCP has managed to tie Taiwan�s continued economic success to closer interaction with the mainland. As for democratization, if you believe democracy is an end in itself I suppose you could consider the end of the KMT power monopoly by the DPP a triumph that the CCP, by itself, won�t be able to achieve. Again, democracies don�t live in a standstill, they as all governments, must deliver.

On that front, some of my Taiwanese friends (Blue and Green) have expressed disappointment with the way the politics has evolved in Taiwan over the last seven years. Many expected Chen Shui-bian to reprise as the good mayor of Taipei, who really cleaned up city governance and made things more �efficient� as Ferins would say. Instead, Chen has led the DPP on a campaign to vanquish the nationalists by pressing the ethnic identity wedge issue at every turn. To reverse the imbalance of the past by teaching Taiwanese history and literature is one thing, but some of the symbolic gestures to �de-sinify� (designating Chinese literature as foreign lit., painting the presidential jet green, removing CKS statues, changing names of state owned enterprises, making non-native born candidates kiss the ground, making brides from China wait much longer for citizenship and work permits than brides from any where else in the world, rejecting the giant pandas and the Olympic torch parade) brings to mind the Cultural Revolution, albeit on a far more humane level. How �successful� were these efforts to �deepen� Taiwanese democracy? As Zhou told Kissenger, a lot of things �are too early to tell.� So far, the pan-Green has driven the pan-Blue into a united front with the CCP. To be sure it�s not the first time this has happened, but the KMT used to be the top-dog in this kind of partnership. Lord knows how long this will last. More significantly, the DPP has nominated Frank Hsieh over several other �deep green� party leaders as its candidate for the next presidential election. This is the same Frank Hsieh who, as the mayor of Kaoshiung, proposed exchange visits with the mayor of Xiamen back in 2000, before Lee Teng-hui nixed the plan. The DDP is also learning and adjusting.

Okay, I�ve gone on long enough. Not trying to �divide or conquer� anyone or break up your little tea-party or barbecue To recap, I think Richard really stumbled on something with his post. To critique the CCP effectively, you have to see what the party is doing and recognize, begrudingly perhaps, what�s working before passing judgment on what you think is wrong. If not, you�ll end sounding like Sorman, who might be in your eyes dead on or completely out of context. As you weigh the rights and wrongs, you�ll inevitably reassess your own understanding of the world, and the assumptions you stand on, as I am doing, particularly when the conventional wisdom fails to match reality. China has got massive social and economic challenges for its government, the CCP or any other to deal with. The CCP, the leviathan itself has to constantly figure out the dictates of its own paternalism, which is prone to utter breakdown. The U.S. might not be able to control China, but it exerts huge influence over enormous swaths of the world, areas which China only has begun to have a presence. How the U.S. conducts itself and shapes the rest of the world will in turn have a profound impact on China. It is only when the U.S. continues to lose its way, as the American public now believes, that CCP has the chance to claim and receive credit from its people.

May 13, 2007 @ 1:52 am | Comment

Well, you’ve got some work to do, “South River Goat Meat Kabab.” However…I’m hoping you’re up to the challenge! This could get interesting…

May 13, 2007 @ 2:11 pm | Comment

“south river???”
have ya ever been to a uigur (east turkmenistan) restaurant? any muslim restaurant? even an indian restaurant, the type scattered across any american college town?
they have “nan,” or… in chinese, technically, “nang.” flatbread, or something of the sorts.
it goes well with yangrouchuan.
by the way, long live the republic of east turkmenistan and down with the “gangjiaodang” (great saying, nanheyangrou). not that that has anything to do with the original post… although maybe, in the end, it does.

May 13, 2007 @ 3:38 pm | Comment

Last night I wrote an immense response to mor, only to then lose it when I hit the wrong key. That hurt. Continental then went on to do a pretty good job of making my argument. I think the most important response to mor’s litany of charges against the CCP, most of which are true, is that for all those sins, the people are still on the whole quite trusting of their government, whether we think they should be or not. The hand-wringing over censorship comes mainly from us (the West); most Chinese – most – take it in stride and if you asked them how high a priority it was for them I suspect you’d find they’re not much bothered. The environment, the arrests of innocents, the oppression, the corruption – all dreadful things I will continue to cite. But most people aren’t touched by the oppression and don’t really care, I hate to say. Most people here care about getting their piece of the pie, again for better of for worse. That’s how it is. The environment does touch a lot of people, and I believe the government is trying to rectify the unbelievable mess they’ve made. But alas, the inherently corrupt system they created makes it nearly impossible, as the environment must be fixed at the local level, and the local party members are in the pockets of the polluters. It’s a conundrum, because the central party needs the support of the local officials to keep the system running. This is what happens when you run a one-party system with a controlled media and no rule of law. And it’s a tragedy. I only hope the Olympics and other events that put China in the global spotlight help push the government to make further progress. I’m not that sanguine about it.

Long ago I wrote a post that slyly compared China today with Germany of 1936. For most of the people, the Party was a phenomenal success, raising their standard of living and creating true progress. Most of the people really did have high hopes and trusted, even loved, their government. My point was that even when a government has the trust and love of its citizens that doesn’t mean it is a good government. Hitler did “good things” in terms of the economy and employment and industrialization, but his was in no way a good government (very, very far from it). And I am not saying the CCP is like the Nazi Party; they aren’t. I am saying things can look rosy and prosperous on the outside, and inside it can be pretty ugly. I think that is how I view the CCP today (and this is an ever-evolving viewpoint): as a rather frightening machine that has done a lot of bad things, but that has improved the lives of enough of its citizens to ensure its hold on power. I don’t like it, I don’t trust it and there are quite a few members who are going straight to hell. But in general the party is committed to improving the lives of its citizens, if only to keep itself in power, and in pursuing this commitment it has made life better for many. God pity the poor disenfranchised souls who are chewed up by this ruthless system; but as long as they are a relatively small and quiet minority, the CCP is here to stay.

May 13, 2007 @ 7:54 pm | Comment

Oh, and Kevin, thanks for solving what to me was the mystery of what the “nanhe” in Kebab Boy’s name stands for. I, too, was thinking south river, or hard to drink (though that made no sense).

May 13, 2007 @ 7:57 pm | Comment

Dear Richard,

“Last night I wrote an immense response to mor, only to then lose it when I hit the wrong key. That hurt.”

Happened to me as well and not only once. You have my sympathy.

“Continental then went on to do a pretty good job of making my argument. I think the most important response to mor’s litany of charges against the CCP, most of which are true, is that for all those sins, the people are still on the whole quite trusting of their government, whether we think they should be or not.”

I doubt that. As I said before I’ve met a lot of people who have faith in the party, but on the other side I’ve also met lots of people who wouldn’t trust them for a penny.

“The hand-wringing over censorship comes mainly from us (the West); most Chinese – most – take it in stride and if you asked them how high a priority it was for them I suspect you’d find they’re not much bothered.”

That is true. For most Chinese people freedom of press is some sort of abstract value which has no importance in their lives. The problem is: many people, including people living in democracies and enjoying freedom of press without realizing it, don’t consider it important until they end up in a situation there they are in need of public support. I give you an example: I’m some upper middle class citizen having a decent job and enjoying the fruits of my hard work until the government decides I have to move out of my just built house because they’ve decided to build a new dam which will flood the town where I live. I want to protest and according to the constitution of my country I have the right to, but the dam is built anyway. I really would like to have the support of the media now, but the media are controlled by the government.
Another example: One of my Chinese friends is a real patriot, he would never say anything bad about the government which he thinks is doing a really good job. He does complain, however, about his employer who hasn’t payed him for the last three months. In a democracy with a free press he probably would know how to defend himself against this kind of abuse. In China, even only teaming up with his colleagues in order to defend his rights could get him into jail.

“The environment, the arrests of innocents, the oppression, the corruption – all dreadful things I will continue to cite. But most people aren’t touched by the oppression and don’t really care, I hate to say.”

Until they are the objects of oppression.

“Most people here care about getting their piece of the pie, again for better of for worse. That’s how it is. The environment does touch a lot of people, and I believe the government is trying to rectify the unbelievable mess they’ve made. But alas, the inherently corrupt system they created makes it nearly impossible, as the environment must be fixed at the local level, and the local party members are in the pockets of the polluters.”

This is where your argument gets very interesting. So your point is that the central government would be willing to fix the environmental problems of China, but can’t, because the bad local cadres (who are members of the CCP which we are discussing here) sabotage their efforts?

“It’s a conundrum, because the central party needs the support of the local officials to keep the system running.”

What’s the conundrum? If local officials don’t walk the party line, they get ousted. Happened many times and to people on rather high levels as well.

“This is what happens when you run a one-party system with a controlled media and no rule of law. And it’s a tragedy. I only hope the Olympics and other events that put China in the global spotlight help push the government to make further progress. I’m not that sanguine about it.”

I also hope that, but I think we are all over-estimating the Olympics (including those people who want to boycott them).

“Long ago I wrote a post that slyly compared China today with Germany of 1936. For most of the people, the Party was a phenomenal success, raising their standard of living and creating true progress. Most of the people really did have high hopes and trusted, even loved, their government. My point was that even when a government has the trust and love of its citizens that doesn’t mean it is a good government.”

Interesting comparison, especially considering that many Chinese people think Adolf Hitler was a great man and are quite fond of the Nazi party without, I would say, really understanding their ideology, especially Asian people’s place in Hitler’s world.

“Hitler did “good things” in terms of the economy and employment and industrialization, but his was in no way a good government (very, very far from it).”

In the end, he even slaughtered his own people sending old men and teenagers to the front although he must have known that the war was already lost.

“And I am not saying the CCP is like the Nazi Party; they aren’t. I am saying things can look rosy and prosperous on the outside, and inside it can be pretty ugly.”

That’s exactly how I see the CCP.

“I think that is how I view the CCP today (and this is an ever-evolving viewpoint): as a rather frightening machine that has done a lot of bad things, but that has improved the lives of enough of its citizens to ensure its hold on power.”

That’s where the Nazi party comparison really makes sense.

“I don’t like it, I don’t trust it and there are quite a few members who are going straight to hell.”

Well, hell is where many Chinese people are living now because of the CCP.

“But in general the party is committed to improving the lives of its citizens, if only to keep itself in power, and in pursuing this commitment it has made life better for many.”

Especially for themselves.

“God pity the poor disenfranchised souls who are chewed up by this ruthless system; but as long as they are a relatively small and quiet minority, the CCP is here to stay.”

I’m afraid so. That’s why we left China and while I’m considering going back one day, my Chinese wife doesn’t even want to think about it.

May 14, 2007 @ 3:18 am | Comment

mor,

Chinese people don’t understand “freedom of press?” You are so typical and hopeless in my opinion. You are too arrogant to think and ask questions when things don’t add up.

I know what you are coming from though. You were taught from the moment of birth that democracy is the answer to everything. If you think China should adopt democracy now, you’ve got to provide some proof to convince the Chinese people, don’t you think? That’s the whole point of Continental’s post.

Can you give me a single example that the democracies in Latin America, Africa, India outperformed China in the past 30 years? Learn to ask questions “when the conventional wisdom fails to match reality” as Continental said. Richard did.

May 14, 2007 @ 7:11 am | Comment

Dear by: ac,

“Chinese people don’t understand “freedom of press?””

I happen to know a lot of Chinese people who do understand what freedom of press is. I think you are underestimating Chinese people’s intelligence.

“You are so typical and hopeless in my opinion.”

Typical what? Hopeless in what way? Sometimes, I really feel hopeless, maybe you can help me.

“You are too arrogant to think and ask questions when things don’t add up.”

You are right about one thing, I’m quite an arrogant person, my wife keeps telling me that again and again. But I’m not to arrogant to think, I really do some serious thinking from time to time. Nor am I too arrogant to ask questions. One of the reasons I keep visiting the Peking Duck is that I want to read other people’s opinions and have discussions with them. I don’t think that my personal opinion is the answer to everything.

“I know what you are coming from though.”

I think now you are being a little bit arrogant. You’ve read a few of my comments and you think you know where I’m coming from.

“You were taught from the moment of birth that democracy is the answer to everything.”

I’ll have to ask my parents about that. As far as I remember I wasn’t taught anything about democracy before I entered middle school.

“If you think China should adopt democracy now, you’ve got to provide some proof to convince the Chinese people, don’t you think?”

I don’t think China should adopt democracy right now, from one day to the other. The CCP government respecting its own constitution would be a first step in the right direction. You are certainly right that we should ask the Chinese people first. I did and I can assure you that they, especially the younger ones, would appreciate a democratic system (to be perfectly honest, I didn’t really do any statistical research, but I can assure you that during those years I spent in China I met quite a lot of Chinese people).

“That’s the whole point of Continental’s post.”

I don’t think that’s the whole point. As a matter of fact, Continental’s post was much more thoughtful than yours.

“Can you give me a single example that the democracies in Latin America, Africa, India outperformed China in the past 30 years?”

To my shame, I have to admit that I never went to Latin America, Africa or India. There are a lot of democracies in Europe which outperformed China not only in the last 30 years, but in the last 50 years. However, that’s not the point. The point is whether the CCP is able and willing to stand up to its own words and respect the laws that they themselves passed.

“Learn to ask questions “when the conventional wisdom fails to match reality” as Continental said. Richard did.”

Sorry, but that went straight over my head. What’s that supposed to mean? Conventional wisdom failing to match reality? Maybe I had too much wine. I’ll certainly ask Richard to teach me, but I think he has quite a tight schedule. I’ll do my best.

May 14, 2007 @ 10:43 am | Comment

>> “I happen to know a lot of Chinese people who do understand what freedom of press is. I think you are underestimating Chinese people’s intelligence.”

Your own words: “For most Chinese people freedom of press is some sort of abstract value which has no importance in their lives.”

Just so you know, I AM Chinese. I think I know a lot more Chinese than you do. Most of the people I know think the current government is doing OK, or at least, based on the situation in Latin America, Africa and India, they are giving the CCP the benefit of the doubt.

>>”There are a lot of democracies in Europe which outperformed China not only in the last 30 years, but in the last 50 years.”

Could you please give one name? Was it as poor as the China 30 years ago? How fast is it’s economy growing now?

May 14, 2007 @ 11:22 am | Comment

Regarding Richard and Mor

“””””””Most people here care about getting their piece of the pie, again for better of for worse. That’s how it is. The environment does touch a lot of people, and I believe the government is trying to rectify the unbelievable mess they’ve made. But alas, the inherently corrupt system they created makes it nearly impossible, as the environment must be fixed at the local level, and the local party members are in the pockets of the polluters.”

This is where your argument gets very interesting. So your point is that the central government would be willing to fix the environmental problems of China, but can’t, because the bad local cadres (who are members of the CCP which we are discussing here) sabotage their efforts?”””””””””””””””””

”””””'”It’s a conundrum, because the central party needs the support of the local officials to keep the system running.”

What’s the conundrum? If local officials don’t walk the party line, they get ousted. Happened many times and to people on rather high levels as well.””””””””””

You’re both right. they are both parasites. The CCP uses the people and lower members to do its dirty work and to spread its evil, they have the control, they hold the switch to the commie brain’o’matic machine. However, the CCP pawns know they are providing a huge service to the CCP and they also know that what they commit are crimes against humanity, they hold bigggg secrets. So they blackmale the CCP and then the CCP has to let them do what they want. So its a dead lock and the people are not the ones who benefit, unless they have power to build up the CCP in some way, but then building up the CCP is against the people so whoever builds up the CCP and joins the party for these blackmale benefits is against the people so its a nasty cycle of evil.

May 14, 2007 @ 1:52 pm | Comment

China certainly has improved in many ways and it is a great place to live.*
*AS LONG AS
you don’t care about fresh air.
you don’t get sick.
you don’t care about silly trifles like your rights as a citizen.
you don’t insist on foolish demands like the government respecting the constitution.
you don’t mind scratching the corpse of your dead child off the asphalt and apologizing to the killer for spoiling his new SUV.
you always follow the HIDDEN RULES.

I would like to ad on a couple

As long as you dont give two poops about people, humanity, your fellow man, cause you better watch out for big brother CCP if you start caring about the persecuted, the tortured, the innocent…

As long as you accept that China is the snapshot that the CCP shows off as Chinas new middle class. If you do what the heartless Chinese do and just wait for everyone else to die off. Yeah, I bet China will have a pretty great GDP when 75% of its people die off uncared for and unheard from.

If you accept propaganda as truth. You take the CCPs word for the stats?! Not smart. You accept the info from a country that is dead set on info blocking?! Not intelligent.

If you follow the party line in dehumanizing Falun Gong practitioners, and all humans for that matter. If you re ok with following under hate campaigns that support mass torture and killing.

If you are willing to live under a tyrant who has killed 80 million Chinese just to instill terror and hold onto power and if you agree to never question its legitimacy to rule a once great nation.

If you are willing to just die off and not say anything or even thank the party when its your turn to be persecuted.

If you want to pretend that the CCP is not manipulating other countries and bribing them to ignore human rights.

May 14, 2007 @ 1:53 pm | Comment

Dear ac,

It’s interesting how you criticize me for supposedly contradicting myself, while you, a CHINESE person, have no problem with a crude generalization like: “Chinese people don’t understand “freedom of press?”” If, as I said, most (meaning the majority) Chinese people regard freedom of press as an abstract value which has no importance in their lives, it is still possible that a lot of (as in a big minority) Chinese people not only understand what freedom of press is, but also value it, don’t you think?

“Just so you know, I AM Chinese. I think I know a lot more Chinese than you do.”

Let’s define the term “Chinese”. Does that include the people who live on Taiwan? Does it include the millions of Chinese people living in democratic countries and not wanting to go back to their great motherland? Does it include those Chinese people who sit in prison now, because they do care about human rights and freedom of press?
I don’t want to argue with you who knows more Chinese people, I just want to tell you there are people who are Chinese like you and happen to disagree with you.

“Most of the people I know think the current government is doing OK, or at least, based on the situation in Latin America, Africa and India, they are giving the CCP the benefit of the doubt.”

What do they know about those places that they haven’t been told by the CCP propaganda machinery? They are probably the same people who want to go to France because “it’s so romantic”. Here’s where that freedom of press issue comes in again.

“Could you please give one name? Was it as poor as the China 30 years ago? How fast is it’s economy growing now?”

Again a question of definition. In you world economic performance simply means the speed of economic growth. It’s very easy to have a fast growing economy, if you don’t care about workers’ rights, safety regulations or the impact on the environment. The whole economic miracle in China is based on pirating, counterfeiting, abusing laogai inmates as cheap labor and flooding the world with cheap (and sometimes poisonous) rubbish. Look at how Germany had to be rebuilt from scratch after the war, later had to bear the costs of the reunion and see how German people live compared to Chinese people and then tell me your CCP government could have the managed the same or even close. Even a country like India is outperforming the People’s Republic of China when it comes to energy efficiency, but of course you refuse to know that because it would shatter your believe of the Middle Kingdom being the greatest country in the world and the Han people a superior race. Who’s arrogant here?

May 15, 2007 @ 9:56 pm | Comment

> It’s very easy to have a fast growing economy.

Mor,

You are simply naive, or may I say, a bit stupid. You talked as if you could solve this world’s problems in no time.

May 16, 2007 @ 2:16 am | Comment

Well, I just think that the CCP is the least noble country because it has completely discarded all human dignity and morality to get this great big GDP.

There are a lot of people in the world who value things other than material wealth and the number of such a kind of people is growing.

I don’t say material wealth is useless, but the pursuit of such benefits while trampling all traditional morality and respect for the abstract humanity, is ridiculous and just so one dimensional.

Other countries have “developed” much more than China and they know that in the end the “quality of life” only improves on the surface, on the money scale. But real quality of life is more than dollars. If you get your dollars through persecution, lies, threats, torture, oppression, then what future? A future of cover up, thought control, weeding out dissent, plotting against your own people, destruction of nature through overexploitation…

So I dont think the evil CCP has had success, they have fake success, they have everything bad with only lies to prop themselves up, oh yeah and the “GDP” that they wave around for legitimacy.

I’d give my life just to live in a country where people are compassionate and truthful.

And the last place I would ever set foot is a place like China under the CCP where good and evil are reversed and evil is considered smart and progressive, they even claim that their evil will lead to so called “stability” and “harmony” If I ever fall for their brainwashing shake me till I remember the truth!

May 16, 2007 @ 5:11 am | Comment

mor,

1) When I say Chinese, I mean the the majority. 90% of the Chinese in the world live in the main land and that’s what I was referring. Yes, there are dissidents in the China, there are 200 million who still live under the poverty line, there are the unemployed, there are oversea Chinese who don’t want to come back. Add them all up, assuming they all disapprove the government, they are still a small minority (less than 1/5 of the Chinese population.) Polls show the government’s approval rating is around 70~80%, my personal experience confirms that.

2) You asked me not to underestimate Chinese people’s intelligence, remember? Now you are telling me they are brainwashed by “CCP’s propaganda machinery,” isn’t that a contradiction?

3) Germany is a developed country, it’s irrelevant. Besides, democracy was not the only reason of it’s success. Industrialization, colonialism and capitalism turned it into a rich and powerful country, democracy led to the establishment of rule of law later. All European powers were already relatively wealthy before they became full-fledged democracies. Germany was able to rebuilt so quickly is because it was the most advanced nation on earth before/during the war, they already had the know-how. There were no sanctions and embargos imposed by other nations during the recovery. It is a relatively small country and it was not overpopulated. I don’t think I need to remind you how complex China is and what it went though from 1840 to 1979. During the past 2000 years, China was able to rebuilt quickly too after each dynasty collapsed, because it was an advanced nation (most of the time, until the Qing dynasty.) The time and conditions are different, it’s not a fair comparison.

The reason why I mentioned Latin America, Africa and India is, after the adoption of democracy, years later they are still developing countries and we haven’t seen the same success in economic growth and poverty reduction as China had. So it is safe to say, democracy DOES NOT GUARANTEE economic success.

Rome wasn’t built in one day, you know. It took the US almost 200 years to realize it’s own constitution, right? We Chinese know we deserve so much better. But we don’t see the government in terms of good or evil, we see it in terms of competent or incompetent. In the early 80s, we were not allowed to own businesses and properties, so we asked for change, the government started the reform. In the 90s, more and more people started to own properties, so we asked for protection, and the property law was established. What we don’t have at this point is free speech, but it is just not the top priority right now. It’s not because we regard it as “an abstract value which has no importance,” it is because we are too busy to make our auto payments and mortgages. When we pay off our loans (in other words, when most of us become middle-class), we will ask for it, OK? All those injustices you talked about are not going to go away tomorrow even if we have freedom of speech today. At current stage, stability is paramount, what we need is evolution, not revolution.

And sorry, I am not an arrogant person. Chinese are no different than any other people. The Middle Kingdom used to be the greatest country in the world, it had a couple of bad centuries, now it’s on it’s way back.

May 16, 2007 @ 12:22 pm | Comment

Correction:

“…because we are so busy to make our auto payments and mortgages…”

May 16, 2007 @ 12:29 pm | Comment

“””””””””””””We Chinese know we deserve so much better. But we don’t see the government in terms of good or evil, we see it in terms of competent or incompetent.””””””””””””

Straight from the horses mouth. Ac, you’ve illustrated my point that the CCP has erased the true Chinese culture and replaced it with absolute materialism and that the Chinese people dont see the difference between good and evil.

I said above that a mass sex offender and baby eater could have their portrait in Tiananmen and the Chinese would worship it none the less if that evil person delivered some cash.

You know, any government can have a GDP increase just as fats or faster if they stoop to the lowest level of morality as the CCP has. If anyone completely disregards the environment, humanity and justice, the GDP will go soaring through the roof.

But thats not human and most governments do not want to turn evil just to make a buck, yes they do it, but they do not take it to the extreme of the CCP.

Most cultures have the concept of right and wrong. It’s wrong to use people as tools for your own aims, it’s wrong to torture people for their beliefs, its wrong to destroy the water supply and air supply…. These are all things other countries batle with in order to not turn totally evil.

But the country who has no culture or right and wrong is the CCP culture.

The Chinese culture had characteristics like harmony with nature, thinking of others first, revering thought and openness, exploration of the mysterious and sublime, discovering the way towards happiness and truth…

If the CCP is in charge for much longer the new characteristics of China will be: the illimination of the concept of conscience, reversal of traditional concept of good and evil, totalitarian terrorism, and pathetic submission.

The CCP culture says that stability comes from the barrel of a gun. But the CCP definition for stability means fear and submission.

May 17, 2007 @ 1:30 am | Comment

@z

Nice try, breaking one sentence apart and replacing my comma followed by an “if” with a full stop. That’s called misquoting. Did you actually bother to read to the end of the sentence?

May 17, 2007 @ 8:04 am | Comment

Dear ac,

1) Which polls are you talking about?

2) Where and when did I use the word “brainwashed”? You said: “Most of the people I know think the current government is doing OK, or at least, based on the situation in Latin America, Africa and India, they are giving the CCP the benefit of the doubt.” Then I pointed out that those people you are talking about probably don’t know much about those places apart from what they have seen on CCTV. That doesn’t contradict my former statement that I happen to know a lot of Chinese people who do understand what freedom of press is. Unlike you, I do not assume that all Chinese people are the same. I still can’t believe that you as a Chinese person make a statement like “Chinese people don’t understand freedom of press.” I’m sure, if nanheyangrouchuan, stuart or myself made exactly the same statement, you (and a few others) would at once criticize it as an arrogant crude (maybe even racist) generalization. You ARE Chinese. Do you understand freedom of press?

3) Yes, we all know that China’s history is so complex that it can’t be compared to other countries. So let’s stop comparing it to other countries. I’ve said it several times, all I’m asking is that the Chinese government stands up to its own words and starts respecting its own constitution.

You are right, democracy does not guarantee economic success, where and when did I say that?

The property law in China is a joke like pretty much every law in China and talking about stability I can’t see that in Chinese people’s lives.

“What we don’t have at this point is free speech, but it is just not the top priority right now. It’s not because we regard it as “an abstract value which has no importance,” it is because we are too busy to make our auto payments and mortgages. When we pay off our loans (in other words, when most of us become middle-class), we will ask for it, OK?”
When you say WE who are you representing right now? Who is “too busy to make our auto payments and mortgages”? The majority of the Chinese people?

Indeed, the Middle Kingdom had a couple of bad centuries and I hope it’s on its way back now and doesn’t destroy itself on the way.

May 17, 2007 @ 8:39 am | Comment

“Predictions about China based on a priori reasoning, ideologically induced delusions, hearsay, conjecture, or mirror-imaging have been frequent and numerous. They have racked up a remarkable record of unreliability. To cite a few relevant examples: contrary to repeated forecasts, the many imperfections of China’s legal system have neither prevented it from developing a vigorous market economy nor inhibited foreign investment — of which China continues to attract more than any other country, including our own. China’s failure to democratize and its continuing censorship of its media, including the Internet, have not stifled its economic progress or capacity to innovate, which are increasingly impressive. China’s perverse practices with respect to human rights have not cost China’s Communist Party or its government their legitimacy. On the contrary, polling data suggests that Chinese have a very much higher regard for their political leaders and government than Americans currently do for ours.” — Ambassador Chas W. Freeman, Jr. (USFS, Ret.)

http://www.cna.org/news/releases/070327.aspx

May 17, 2007 @ 12:17 pm | Comment